Ever wondered what it takes to turn a passion into a successful enterprise? This week's podcast is an eye-opener. We had the pleasure of chatting with Nick, a master craftsman who turned his love for cabinetmaking into a flourishing business. Nick opens up about his journey, from being an employee to becoming a business owner. He navigates through the cacophony of social media voices and shares his experiences of buying and running a business.
Nick didn't just share his journey, he also divulged his business strategies. Data analysis and spreadsheets stood out as essentials in his cabinetmaking business. They helped him set up a pricing structure, calculate labor rates, and even schedule weekly targets. Whether you're struggling with cash flow, or unsure about pricing, tune in - Nick's methodical approach is a lesson in itself. He also infused details of his design-build approach to small kitchen renovations, and the importance of practicality versus aesthetic – a nugget of wisdom that anyone dealing with clients could take to heart.
So, get ready to be inspired by Nick's story, a testament to what hard work, dedication, and staying true to your dreams can accomplish.
Check out Action Kitchens here...
actionkitchens.net.au
We're on a mission to elevate the professionalism of the residential construction industry, and help everyone enjoy building and renovating homes.
Easy to use Quoting software for Builders. Produce professional and accurate proposals. Quickly and accurately measure and markup plans in minutes. Win more jobs and track costs. 21 Day Free Trial.
check out more podcasts here...
https://levelupwithduaynepearce.buzzsprout.com
Ever wondered what it takes to turn a passion into a successful enterprise? This week's podcast is an eye-opener. We had the pleasure of chatting with Nick, a master craftsman who turned his love for cabinetmaking into a flourishing business. Nick opens up about his journey, from being an employee to becoming a business owner. He navigates through the cacophony of social media voices and shares his experiences of buying and running a business.
Nick didn't just share his journey, he also divulged his business strategies. Data analysis and spreadsheets stood out as essentials in his cabinetmaking business. They helped him set up a pricing structure, calculate labor rates, and even schedule weekly targets. Whether you're struggling with cash flow, or unsure about pricing, tune in - Nick's methodical approach is a lesson in itself. He also infused details of his design-build approach to small kitchen renovations, and the importance of practicality versus aesthetic – a nugget of wisdom that anyone dealing with clients could take to heart.
So, get ready to be inspired by Nick's story, a testament to what hard work, dedication, and staying true to your dreams can accomplish.
Check out Action Kitchens here...
actionkitchens.net.au
We're on a mission to elevate the professionalism of the residential construction industry, and help everyone enjoy building and renovating homes.
Easy to use Quoting software for Builders. Produce professional and accurate proposals. Quickly and accurately measure and markup plans in minutes. Win more jobs and track costs. 21 Day Free Trial.
check out more podcasts here...
https://levelupwithduaynepearce.buzzsprout.com
I'm doing a project at the moment and I know the client has specific requirements. If it means I have to spend an extra eight hours, providing that, I would much rather put the effort in now than when the stuff gets installed and it's not right and they're not satisfied with. Do the work today or deal with the consequences tomorrow.
Speaker 2:Good day everyone. Welcome back to another episode of Level Up. We are back in the shed this afternoon. It's a bit of a cold, rainy day today here in Brisbane, but we've got another cracking guest for you this afternoon. Nick reached out to us after hearing a couple of our episodes and wanted to come on and tell his story. So, nick, it's going to be a cracking one today because Nick's got a carpentry background, he's got his builders license, but he actually bought and operates a cabinet making business. He's all about family, he's a family man and all about building relationships with his clients. So we've just been having a really good conversation before we started recording today. And I'm like, fuck, we just got to start recording because we're talking about some really good stuff here. So sit back, relax and get into this one, because this conversation is going to be an absolute cracker.
Speaker 1:How are you mate? Yeah, pretty good Pleasure to be here. As you said before, been listening to your podcast for a while. Was a part of your pack process in your live life build business a few years ago and just wanted to reach out and catch up and have a chat.
Speaker 2:Mate, I think it's fantastic because this podcast is all about leveling up the building industry and everyone in it and for you to be a little bit vulnerable and reach out and say, hey, I want to come on and have a chat about things. I think it's a big deal and I think, just going off the conversation we've been having for the last sort of 20 odd minutes, you've got a lot of value to add.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I suppose construction's been my whole life. Yeah, if you asked me in year six, year seven, what I wanted to be is I wanted to be a chippy, I wanted to be a builder, and that's. My whole career has been based around carpentry, construction, cabinetmaking.
Speaker 2:So now you're, so you bought into a cabinetmaking business.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so after a few years of working for other cabinetmaking companies, other construction companies, I found myself enjoying the high level of detail that's required in cabinetmaking, and an opportunity came along where we were able to buy a well, a very well established cabinetmaking business in the south side of Brisbane. What's it called?
Speaker 2:mate Action kitchens.
Speaker 1:So action kitchens down at Takapalba and yeah, we've been working day and night to make that happen and deliver bespoke cabinetry for our clients in their homes.
Speaker 2:Like I'm pretty curious to know what made you go down the path of buying a business. It's, I think it's a. It's always something that's a find very interesting.
Speaker 1:But I look back at this all the time now, especially now that I actually have stuff, and it's something that I always thought I was going to do, Like even when I was back at school. I was always interested in business, accounting, those sorts of things. But yeah, I literally came home one day said to my partner at the time hey, I'm not enjoying working for somebody, this business is for sale.
Speaker 2:So what were you doing at that point? Were you a carpenter or at?
Speaker 1:that point in time I was working for a commercial cabinet maker. They were doing large commercial projects, time and homes, supplying store cabinetry for builders, that sort of thing. Great place to work. But I just I know I wasn't happy with it. Yeah, I look back at that now and yeah, just realized that I was. It had nothing to do with the work or anything like that, it was just didn't know who I was, who I wanted to be, anything. So it's just jump into the next thing to see if that would give me a new film in, I suppose yeah.
Speaker 2:And so you thought buying a business was. I thought that'd be a good idea.
Speaker 1:You know another challenge learn something new. My wife now she was like, yeah, let's do it. It's like, oh shit, I suppose I have to do it now. Yeah, and we put the finances together and back and forward with the bank and it all moved really quickly. In the space of six weeks We'd financed purchasing a business and, yeah, eight weeks later we were there running it.
Speaker 2:No, that is a that's a massive move. But like, we'll just go back a little bit because you just touched on something and it's also something we talked about before we started recording. Like you said, one of the other podcasts we've done you heard some of the guys from I think it was the one we did with Zanetta builders and the guys from Eva built and and I think we had bread on one of those on that same podcast, and you said they were talking about like young guys finding themselves and like 100 getting direction.
Speaker 1:I think it's really hard for people to work out when is enough. You know, finding yourself as a young person, finding a place in the world, what that looks like, what you want that to be. There's so much noise out there in the world you know you should have this, you should be successful.
Speaker 2:It is like everything on social media is a lot of its garbage, like if you actually saw the way that people were living behind the scenes, I think you'd be very surprised, and it obviously makes it very confusing for people.
Speaker 1:Oh, I would agree with that, heaps. You know it's so easy to sit there for half an hour at night and flick through socials and for me that looks like I follow a lot of builders, a lot of designers and it's like, oh, look at these like really cool projects. You know it'd be awesome to be a part of that. But yeah, you see, what happens on the back, on the flip side of that, when you do actually work for some of these people and it's, it's definitely not all that it cracks up to be sometimes.
Speaker 2:I'm at face value and perception. It's a. It can be a horrible thing.
Speaker 1:I got a couple of more seasoned builders that we've done work for. One of them in particular, he's. He's retiring this year and it really saddens me that that's happening, because the quality of his builds, the organization that he has, is exceptional and you don't see that in the industry as much. Well, we don't specifically. Yeah, I'm sure there's people out there that are doing it. Yeah, it's super hard to sometimes deliver on projects when you don't actually have the information you need when you need it to be able to deliver on it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, what resonated with you about finding yourself Like is it? Is it just something you'd never thought about or something that you've? Now that you put a bit of time into you, you got more direction.
Speaker 1:Realistically, it's probably my wife has helped and supported me immensely to be able to help me find myself, find my place over the last seven years.
Speaker 1:Yeah, she's been a really big support to me. It was really hard the first couple of years when we initially took over Action Kitchens because sort of over committed myself a whole pile of skills that I didn't have, that I didn't know I needed. I thought I was a pretty good tradesperson and I thought I was coming into a shop where you know X, y and Z would be sorted. But I sort of came across a whole bunch of other issues that I didn't know how to resolve and that put me under a whole pile of stress. Yeah, just, you know, essentially supported me through that and now we manage that a lot better within our own relationship. So we know when we're venting to each other. We know we don't have to fix each other's problems, but we're just sort of explaining how we feel about our days and it just sometimes it just feels better just to get it out and off your shoulders and you can just move on and get on with it.
Speaker 2:It's important when you're in any business but to be able to have a partner that you can just listen sometimes or, like you said, you don't have to solve each other's problems Just like I must put my hand up, because I do try and solve my partner's problems a lot of the time, but it really helps to have a partner that supports you and, I guess, pays attention to that sort of thing.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's really important for me and her, because we both know when we're not listening to each other and it's not nice for anyone. Yeah.
Speaker 2:So so mate tell us some of the things. So, like you because I think there'd be a lot of people out there that probably not even when it comes to buying a business, but even just starting your own business from scratch they do think this is going to be awesome. I'm going to make you some money. I know I'm a good tradesman. Like this is going to be sweet.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I look back now and weigh up the purchasing of Action Kitchens versus starting your own business. If I had have started my own business the way that I was planning to, we would have 100% failed First two years, without a doubt we would have failed Where's that Because I had no idea.
Speaker 1:Realistically, like when I look back at it. I was like, oh, I was going to purchase like this much worth of machinery and I was going to rent this size building and I didn't even have any clients yet. I was just like in a fairyland.
Speaker 1:really it's like yeah, this will be awesome. You know we'll just get this much finance and we'll, you know, just make it happen. At the time I was sort of doing weekend work, projects in between my day job had time and resources to be able to do that. Yeah, not on the scale that we do it now.
Speaker 1:So, we're really fortunate to walk into a very well established business with a very good reputation, with a good client base. Around the 2018 mark. For whatever reason, work had dropped off a little bit when we were planned to take over Action Kitchens, so the first two months was like, wow, how are we going to make this work? Like? The financing that we got was extremely tight.
Speaker 1:We had like 20 grand in the bank to operate a business that turned over much more than that. So it was like week to week with finances and that was super stressful. And then we were like oh shit, we don't have work. We don't have enough work, we need more work. How do we get more work?
Speaker 2:So how many did you take over employees?
Speaker 1:Or yep, so we took over the whole whole kitten caboodle. So what are we talking? What we're talking? At the time, there was six staff, six full time staff plus the existing business owner, plus myself. So for the first six months, I didn't even pay myself and we were living off my wife's wage for the first six months of Action Kitchens. That put immense stress on our relationship as well as it does, and yeah, I was just trying to find ways to make this scenario work. It was working, but it was very stressful.
Speaker 2:So up until this point, had you like with your carpentry and building and stuff? Like, had you had to find your own work, or had you run jobs, or would you just been employed by other people?
Speaker 1:I'd run my own jobs. My old man is also a cabinet maker, so I ran a business side by side with him for a few years prior to that. But yeah, I'd run a few projects by myself, but not with staff, so I was the one doing all the work. The work always got done the way that it should have, but the biggest one.
Speaker 2:So you weren't in a mindset that if like because it worked. Quite often when you're doing the work yourself, it's like it takes what it takes and you just make whatever's left. But as soon as you start employing people like you have to make a bare minimum amount of money to pay their salaries, to pay the rent on the building, to do a lot of things.
Speaker 1:It's really easy when you do the work yourself, because you can wear the cost of not quoting the job appropriately, not allowing enough hours for the project, because you just do those extra five hours and it dilutes your hourly what you take home at the end of the week. Yeah, yeah, it's really easy when that's the case. But when you have staff and you're paying them and you have all your overheads and associated costs and running your business, yeah, you really need to know those figures, you really need to understand how many hours go into that project. And that was the hardest thing that we had to implement in our business when we took over Action Kitchen, as we recognized that the way that the cabinetry was getting quoted whilst it was working was not a very good method.
Speaker 1:Typical square meterage or linear meter rate for cabinetry and for projects Whilst that works historically when you have big fluctuations in the market, like COVID, we have substantial amount of labor costs increases and material cost increases. We found that really hard to adapt to the linear meter rate. So we had to essentially create a whole new pricing structure for how we can, how we estimate all of our work.
Speaker 2:I've heard this just on the grapevine that a lot of cabinet makes it do like bulk work for volume builders. That's how they price. It's basically done on a square meter or linear meter rate. I just don't know how that would ever really work because you're completely relying on a big volume.
Speaker 1:Any place that I've worked at, a lot of them use linear meter rate for pricing Some of the volume builder stuff. I think they even dictate the linear meter rate to the cabinet maker. Yeah, like it's terrible, like if you break those linear meter rates down. Whilst it works for some people, we couldn't get it to work because as soon as you I don't think it works for anyone, mate.
Speaker 2:I think if people actually did their real numbers, it's quick and easy and it's based on volume. That's all it is. If a volume builder was doing 200 homes a year and you're doing 200 homes a year for them, you might make a bit of money because you're smashing out the volume. But that is a hard way to make money.
Speaker 1:I like clarity in my projects, so we couldn't go back to our staff and go hey guys, this is how much time has been estimated for this kitchen install. This is how long it should take to set out. This is how long it should take to cut out. This is how long it should take to assemble. We couldn't set any targets, it was just get it out the door as fast as you can, because we have no idea on how long this is actually supposed to take. We've quoted 20 linear meters of base cabinets, 10 linear meters of overheads and, because of pantries twice the size, we'll just double the pantry.
Speaker 1:Like that's literally the pricing methodology that exists in the industry. I'm not saying everyone does it, but I'd say a lot of people do. A lot of people do. So essentially, we sat down with our accountant, sat down with a manufacturing business coach and said, hey, what can we do? How do we do this? How can we do this effectively? Now we essentially have three spreadsheets that we run to calculate our labor rate, cost and cell, how we charge out our materials and how we formulate the average hours to essentially construct a cabinet and install the cabinet.
Speaker 1:Oh, you're just using spreadsheets, yeah, so we use the three spreadsheets to calculate those items and then we've inputted that into our CRM or ERP software and from our quotes we can actually produce schedules and all that sort of stuff for our staff. Monday morning meetings we can go hey guys, this is what's been scheduled for the week. We've estimated 40 hours of installation for this project. We should be done by Wednesday XYZ, and the staff love it because it's like cool, that's what we're working to. If we beat it, awesome If we're a little bit behind what happened.
Speaker 2:Data is massive mate, but data is friggin so many people underestimate it. We have that software now Quotee's. I think data is the most important thing in every business, Because once you know your data, you can do exactly what you just said you can set targets, you can track things, you can revise costs, you can go back and reference where something went wrong. But if you don't have a software or something in your business that allows you to do that, you are just constantly chasing your data, I suppose the hardest thing.
Speaker 1:On one of your podcasts you're talking about guys tracking their time. For us, it's really easy to track your own time, but then when you add another six, 10, 20 people into the mix, it's like how do you track their time? And then how does that time then get applied to projects? So for us, we have projects at all different stages.
Speaker 1:So my production manager will be setting out a job, so he'll be working on that project and he might spend three hours here today on this job and then three hours on another job. So he might work on two or three jobs a day, six jobs a week, and then the guys in the factory cutting out are doing the same thing, the guys assembling are doing the same thing, and then the site guys are doing the same thing. So it's like how do you even capture all this data? You can't do it on paper. You can, but it's super difficult.
Speaker 2:I'm a big fan of keeping it simple, but there's plenty of software that there's these days. And look, I think, yeah, obviously building is quite different to a manufacturing type setup, but I believe there'd be a way that you could get your employees documenting like and it could be as simple as if, like if they're in the factory, like they just document like 2.3 at 2.5 hours on this particular job, one and a half hours on this job, like just goes into a time sheet every day. That gets entered into some sort of software. Yeah.
Speaker 1:So that was essentially the first step to our pricing issue. We implemented time tracking on all our projects. So all of our guys now log time specifically to a project when they are working on it, and then our admin lady checks time sheets every morning to make sure that everybody's allocated their hours for yesterday. Yeah, that's awesome, and that essentially gave us really good data across all of our different types of projects that we could then sit back and analyze. Yeah, we could sit back and go on this cupboard, on this kitchen, there was 30 cabinets, 10 base cabinets, this many top cabinets. This is our average installation time. This is our average assembly time. This is our average machining set out times, and from that we were actually able to develop a very sound pricing structure.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and then you've got all that data to reference and go back. Like when you get a new job, you can go oh shit, we've actually one done, one that's very similar to that, like it was around this cost, so like maybe this one should be a bit more, or like it's data is massive.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so we can effectively back cost all of our projects within a couple hundred dollars now, which is awesome. Prior to that, we were relying on PNLs to go okay, have we done? Well?
Speaker 2:What PNLs? What quarterly or monthly?
Speaker 1:quarterly, Because there's, can be some, like there can be quite a few fluctuations month to month, so sort of hard to track monthly but monthly, quarterly shit. The last four weeks have we gone okay, so the last three months have we gone okay.
Speaker 2:It blows my mind that that's how so many trades and builders operate.
Speaker 1:Like that's but when you have a like a massive influx in the market, like COVID, like it was changing weekly, like the historical data is not there, you literally have to wait for it to taper out, for that to actually work.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and then it's not taken a lot of times, not taken into real-time account like invoices that haven't come in yet from other suppliers or other trades or whatever it may be.
Speaker 1:So, like you can, you can look at your PNL and think how it should operate, but if you're not accounting for your work and progress appropriately, which most people don't know how to do, it's like it's pointless. You just like it's in the wind.
Speaker 2:It's terrible. And it like some of the stories I've heard, like even builders getting told by their account and how you you've had an awesome quarter. Like if you want that new truck, down by the new truck, or if you want that shed, by that shed, and they spend their money and then, like within four weeks they're like all these bills are coming in and I don't have any money left to pay them Like they go oh cool, net profit 200 grand end of year.
Speaker 1:But the accountant forgets to tell the guy that has no idea that they have $100,000 worth of loans and liabilities. That comes out of that 200 grand and they go buy the new truck and buy the new piece of equipment and they go shit. Where's all my cash flow going?
Speaker 2:Yeah, we got. We got a lot to get through and a lot to talk about. But I want to go back. You mentioned before you got some manufacturing coaching. Yes, so I'm massive, like, I think, anybody like you've got to work hard on yourself and you're doing your business.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so like I'm a third generation carpenter countermaker, so grandfather was a boat builder, dad's countermaker, I'm essentially both. My old man is an amazing craftsman. He will build anything you want, doesn't care how long it takes, we'll give it a crack.
Speaker 1:Like, some of the journey that he's been building lately is absolutely amazing. I learned from him, so I learned a lot of those skills from him, but I want to run a really good, successful business. I realized that I needed to develop my skills, not just what I've learned from the industry, but look outside the industry and see what I can use to apply to my business. So, yeah, I participated in some lean manufacturing and coaching and started to get some education around just-in-time manufacturing and lean manufacturing.
Speaker 2:What made you get to a point where you're like, all right, I want to get a third party involved, I want to get some extra help.
Speaker 1:I'd worked with another business coach when we were going through some struggles at the start, when we felt like we didn't have enough work. We didn't know how to market our business. So we got a business coach on board that helped us with some marketing strategies, tried to help us with some pricing strategies. We couldn't get that to work for us at the time for a pile of different reasons. We couldn't get the software to work. We're just missing a few pieces to make that successful. At the time we ended up moving on from that coach and started working with our new coach and we just got those final pieces that we needed to actually implement a really good pricing structure. The lean manufacturing thing just came from my need to improve on and be relevant to the marketplace. So we're always getting feedback from the marketplace builders. You know pricing is too expensive or this, that the other.
Speaker 2:We know the pricing is where we need it to be for us, for it to be successful for us in our business, but pricing needs to be wherever it needs to be for your business to make money, and then you just got to sell it.
Speaker 1:I would agree with that, but at the same time, we're like, okay, well, what can we do to help our process as well? Is there anywhere we can improve as a business? We implemented a new piece of equipment and we saw like a 20, 25% increase in production, and that was an awesome benefit for us and it wouldn't mean cheap, it wasn't, no, and that's the other.
Speaker 2:Like it's hard, isn't it? Because you, a lot of businesses get stuck and they won't spend the money to improve things. And yet when you spend them, like you just like how much. How awesome is that that you had a 25% increase in production because you had the balls to make a call to buy a new piece of machinery.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that was a sizable investment. But yeah, we 100% saw the return on that. We'd seen it work in the industry, so it was an o-brainer when it came to the actual decision. But yeah, you got to have the funds there to be able to warrant that.
Speaker 2:But did you? Would you have been in that mindset without getting coaching?
Speaker 1:Probably not at the time. If I look at when we were really struggling, no, I probably wouldn't have. I really struggled with my mindset at the start because I was too afraid to make a decision that would make things worse. Yeah, you know, you sort of you get stuck. You're like shit. I don't know what I'm doing.
Speaker 2:So what? So what is struggling, Like you keep referring to this time when you were struggling, like what? Was this in that early days of buying the business.
Speaker 1:Yeah, the first 12 months of Action Kitchens, financially things were very tight, so that was very stressful. We didn't have enough work, so that was that was stressful. I wasn't personally bringing home any income as well, so that had implications at home. You know, everything was just work, work, work, work, work and yeah, that had some pretty shitty consequences for home life and the rest of it. But we worked through it and we got a. I got a coach on board and worked through the issues that we had at Action Kitchens.
Speaker 2:I want to dive into this because I think this, this is a turning point and I think this is where so many people make the wrong decision. Like so you're in a point where you're struggling, you're having issues at home, you're not bringing in any money, but you still were in enough minds, like a clear enough mindset, to know that you had to bring in help. And I'm sure at the time you were in shit in your pants. She's like I don't have the money to pay for help, but I know I need the help.
Speaker 2:Yeah, like and for me, this this is a turning point Like this is where so many businesses either make the decision and set their path for the future, or they just keep going around on that hamster wheel.
Speaker 1:Yeah, like, obviously we'd committed, committed ourselves to a certain financial package with all the finance that we obtained to purchase the business. So we had to make sure that the revenue and net profit stayed to what the figures were in the previous year, and so to do that, we had to make sure that we had the work to support it. And we just didn't have it. So we were like, well, I don't know how to market the business, how do we do this, like through money at like website and this and that? But we had no strategy. And as soon as we got a coach on board and we actually developed a strategy for that, it was like it changed overnight and I'm sure the coach wasn't seen. No, no, it was a substantial investment over a 12 month period, but in that first three months we sort of got enough knowledge to just implement straight away, and the faster we implemented, the faster things changed and moved.
Speaker 1:So we changed our sales process similar to your pack process, but more aims for commentary stuff. So we stopped going out to site to meet clients, we started bringing them into the showroom and we just had a. We have a very nice detailed sales process now where we're actually addressing the client's needs rather than just doing what we think they wanted.
Speaker 2:Well, you're not acting out of scarcity. You've got a system, you got a process, you know it works and you're in control.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it also cut a lot of time wasted meeting with clients that we're never going to purchase from us anyway. I love it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I love it, man, I'm glad we've sort of got to the got to how you made that turning point, because I think it's a really exhorting and the reality is it's possible for everybody. It's just it can be a very hard decision to make to spend the money. I know, correct me if I'm wrong, but, like so many times, even once you bite the bullet, you take that jump and you get the coach on board. You can be sitting there and thinking a lot of times, oh shit, like, oh shit, like. What am I paying for? I knew, like I knew that. But it's not about that, is it? It's about having someone behind you in your corner, backing you and basically holding your hand to guide you, and a lot of the times, that's what we need. Is business owners. Isn't it Like you need someone to be able to pick up the phone and talk to, or someone that's been in a similar scenario, or someone that's got the right templates and PDFs or processes and systems, like and really that's what they do they guide you through the process.
Speaker 1:I think the biggest thing I learned from the coach that I'm working with now is a lot of people run around just trying to fix everything. But if you take a step back and look at what you're dealing with on a daily basis objectively not from like not when you're doing the work, when you're like actually in the weeds, when you actually sit back and go shit you know every job that we do is the same. We literally use the same process, but we tend to overcomplicate and go oh well, this is a builder job, so it's different. But the best thing we ever did was a value stream of our business, start to finish. From the first time we had a client come in the door to a completed project and we just got a big chart on the wall and office and box arrow, box arrow, super basic. This happens, this happens, this happens, this happens, this happens, this happens for this type of job. And then we did it for the next type of job. It's like you know what. There's so many similarities here.
Speaker 2:Yeah, let's play around them, let's get them as close to possible as the same and let's just smash this process out 100%. Time after time after time repeat the same shit. It's one of the most important things a business can do is get that sales process right, because if you get the sales process right, it sets you up like the clients respect you, they treat you as a professional, they take your advice and if you do it really really well, it's not about the price, like they've come to you because you're going to solve their problems, you're going to deliver them what they're looking for.
Speaker 1:We worked out that you probably get it all the time, or probably not so much now, but you would have. Hey, I'm looking for a quote. Everybody runs to oh okay, well, I got to go provide them a quote. What they're really looking for is can I afford this? What's my budget? You can do that without going to site and spending three hours on site and a set of drawings and this, that and the other. That was an awesome thing that I learned from your PAC process.
Speaker 1:We have project examples or project sheets hey guys, this project, this size, this scope of work you're looking this much, this level of finishes. I had three of those meetings this week. Half an hour process client knows exactly what they're looking at. Yep, awesome, we're keen. What's the next day? I call. Well, dude, there was a design up for you and do XYZ.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and what was it? What was it in the old days? Go out to site measure up. What do you want? Sit with them for an hour, two hours, drive back to like drive their drive back. Sit in the office. Try and work something else for them. Like you probably wasted two days, three days?
Speaker 1:Yeah, depending on the size of the project. But yeah, you'd spend a day on a project.
Speaker 2:May or may not get the job, you've got more chance of getting a job, being more stern and having a solid process to follow. Haven't you Than trying to please everybody and hold their hand?
Speaker 1:It's good because the clients can see that you understand the requirements for the project. You look experienced, they know. As long as you can address the problems that they're having or don't understand, then they feel comfortable going to the next step.
Speaker 2:So it's a massive turnaround. So like, how's the business now? Because you had a lot of difficulties through COVID.
Speaker 1:We did have a lot of difficulties through COVID. We had a lot of supply issues. We had a lot of projects that we had committed pricing to that we felt like we were obligated to deliver on. So we had probably 50 percent of our revenue on fixed price contracts that we'd sort of said to the builder hey guys, this is our pricing for those projects that sent us purchase orders, paid deposits, and those projects cost me so much money.
Speaker 2:It was a difficult time through COVID and, I think, so many well clients. I don't think truly understood how quickly the prices were increasing, like you said before, like there was things that were increasing weekly yeah, 100 percent. I'm not just small.
Speaker 1:No big big increases on a regular basis. The turning point for us was we also didn't have a pricing structure that allowed us to quickly adapt our pricing to those changes, which made it harder again to make sure that the work that we were doing. In the end, we ended up pulling out about six housevideos that we'd committed ourselves to and said, look, sorry guys, can't do it for this price. If you want us to do the work, then this is what it's going to look like. Some of them were completely understanding, put it to the clients and they were really good about it. The other ones were not so forgiving, but I also understand from their perspective that their hands were tight as well. Yeah, and we ended up just not doing those projects.
Speaker 2:Yeah, but look, it's empowering that you made that decision.
Speaker 1:We couldn't keep doing it. The projects that we were doing well on were covering the projects that we weren't, so the short term stuff that we'd drummed up, we were doing well on because we'd managed to fix our pricing and all that sort of thing, and we're only dealing with the material shortages and delays and the stuff that we'd quoted we might as well have not done.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it sucks, doesn't it, when you're doing good work, to pay for other work. And it's a shame, because that's even not disregarding COVID. That's how a lot of our industry operates all the time yeah.
Speaker 1:So it really put things in perspective. For me, from a business perspective, it's like OK, well, every time we commit ourselves to a project some of the projects that we're quoting at the moment specifically we know they're not going to come together until middle to late next year. The builders want pricing that reflects that, and so we have to put assumptions in place on material increases and so forth. So that is reasonable.
Speaker 2:Well, so you make money, but profit's not a dirty word. Every business has to make money that's sustainable. To keep operating, to be healthy, to operate, you've got to make money 100%. So it's all sounding really good. You've obviously learned a lot. You're kicking goals now, but you're not just working for builders. Are you With your builders like some things you're actually doing? I guess small renovations.
Speaker 1:Yeah, we do some small renovations mainly when well only when there's substantial amount of cabinetry that's required. So yeah, we just noticed that a lot of the smaller renovation projects sort of weren't being catered for in our area, we weren't being cared for very well. So we sort of have a design build process for just small kitchen renovations.
Speaker 2:So you take care of the plumber. Sparky bit maybe with a plastering.
Speaker 1:Yep full scope of work. So interior design, plumbing, electrical plastering, carpentry and, obviously, cabinetry.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so you're outsourcing those contractors, or do you do the carpentry or do?
Speaker 1:you bring carpentry. No, we essentially have contractors for that work. My uncle is a carpenter. I actually did my apprenticeship with him. Yeah and yeah, we have a wide range of other trades that we use on a regular basis as well.
Speaker 2:I like it because you said before, when you, when you first purchased this business, you found out reasonably quickly that the area that they were getting a lot of bringing a lot of work into the company was not was sort of running out. It wasn't keeping up with the times.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so that was probably one of our biggest shifts early on. Instead of just being like every other cabinet maker, we decided that we have the skills, we have to know how. Why don't we make this service a lot easier for the clients? Yeah, it's worked out really good. We sort of. From a scheduling perspective, it's awesome because we control the whole project. So we're trying to work in with builders schedules or stuff like that, Just on that?
Speaker 2:is there many bills that actually give you a schedule, or is it like ring up hey, I need this in six weeks.
Speaker 1:If there's anything that's broken with the construction industry, it's scheduling. Like I understand that there's weather conditions, but like not doing a schedule on a project just because you think you know how the project runs or whatever.
Speaker 2:I get it. I did it for years. I'd drive around from job to job every day with my diary and I had notes in there and I'd bring up each day. I'd bring up every trade and let them know where we're at and hey, I need you in two weeks time and this and that. That it is a terrible way to operate. Not just for me as a builder. I feel for all the bloody pain I put on my subbies and yet so many builders are not running schedules.
Speaker 1:And I would love to crack open laptop and show scheduling that we do in our business now and it has been probably one of the most successful things that we have done for our business, because all of our staff clearly understand what is due when on every project. Yeah.
Speaker 1:So running a single project out of your head? Yeah, sure, it's definitely doable. Heaps of people do it One, two, three, five. Sure it can be done. But what you can't do is then see like all the overlaps on multiple projects. So it's like, oh, we use the same Sparky. We only have one Sparky, but he's on this project for six weeks and I really need him to do a roughing on that project. And then it's like, oh well, I got to pull him from this project to do this one and then this one's behind, and then you have all these conflicting issues when you start running multiple multiple jobs and you start to run into those.
Speaker 1:when you start scaling, it's like oh well, I've always used the Sparky because he does a good job and he knows what I need to do, but he's not available. Or and then you go and try and find another Sparky in the new Sparky does it differently.
Speaker 2:or yeah, what's it look like from other builders, like what do I do? Do you have builders that send you scheduling?
Speaker 1:We've been really fortunate lately. Last 12 months for us has been awesome. We had a really successful year last year the most success, the most successful year we've had to date, which is awesome. Financially, we were really lucky. Last year. We did a few projects with some really good building designers and architects and they've been recommending us heaps, yeah, so we've been talking about relationship.
Speaker 1:Yeah, we're actually starting to get some really good relationships within the industry with people that actually align with our values. Before we were sort of working with we were doing what we could find and the work wasn't necessarily reflecting what we believed in as a company. And, yeah, it's more enjoyable working with these people that are actually passionate about seeing a really successful project.
Speaker 2:So what are your values Like? Do you have a mission statement in the business?
Speaker 1:It's something that we're working on. We normally keep it pretty simple, so it's quality. Honesty and respect is what we work to.
Speaker 2:So those people that you've done a bit of work for now, like they're more organized, they're giving you schedules.
Speaker 1:It's like chalk and cheese. One of the new builders that we're working with at the moment the interior designers that they have been using to specify their projects has been the best that we've seen to date. I'm, all the specifications are there that we required, actually quite a project accurately, and then there's only a little bit of backwards and forth going. Hey, what's going on with this scenario? Who's responsible for this? Rather than like just imagining what needs to get built, like if I saw a set of architectural plans that come across my desk, maybe two, three sets a week.
Speaker 1:Builder sends me out, says hey man, I need a price for cabinetry. And it's literally a floor plan with a cabinetry outline. It's like what are we pricing? And that's like that happens all the time, all the time, mate, all the time.
Speaker 2:What's in it? Like, what draws as I got doors, like what do you want? Yeah?
Speaker 1:for builders. I really love the build and design process because they're like involved from start to finish. That's why I love your pack process. Like at least you're involved start to finish. You understand what's happening. Yeah, the worst thing about construction is not enough like people professionals, trades, architects, builders like are actually communicating the vision for the project. Yeah. These people that are involved at the start need to communicate with the people involved at the end. For a building project, that might be 200 people.
Speaker 2:But, like you said you just touched on it with like you get a set of drawings that's got an outline of where the kitchen goes and a vanity goes and like, how do you put a figure on that? And then linear meter.
Speaker 2:Yeah Well, and so this is where it gets hard. This is where I feel for clients, because if they're getting priced from multiple builders, there will be builders out there that just throw a figure what are 18 green? And you'll have another builder that takes more pride in what he does and he'll might have a good relationship with a cabinet maker and the cabinet might throw a quick sketch together of that design and put a figure on it, and that figure is going to be more realistic because he's actually put a bit of time to figuring out what's going to fit in that outline.
Speaker 2:And then the builder, like the other builder, goes back to the client and the client just goes well, why are you cheaper than this guy? This guy is you've got 18 grand for my joinery. You've got 48 grand for my joinery. Like what's going on? Like people don't understand the value of spending more time and money in the early stages, getting everything documented on paper, like to me, that like and look. I used to be one of those people 10 years ago but now I cannot recommend to my clients enough spend the money on the designer, spend the money on the document, spend the money on a builder doing the pack process, because the more money you spend in those early stages your job, the more success for your job is going to be, the less chance you got to have variations. Like it's a no brainer.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I love Amelia's comment. Well, it's lines on a page, it's easy to change and it's 100% true. While it is still at specification or still at plan stage, it is so easy to change. Yes, you might have some design fees or anything like that, but that, versus variations throughout a project, like it's, it's a no brainer. Yeah, you know what's getting built, no questions.
Speaker 2:Yeah, but I want to go back. You mentioned it a few times now and we talked about it before we started today making it personal and you you commented that you might make a little bit too personal sometimes, but whether it's building a whole home or coming to you to get a kitchen built, it's you're not buying a car. It is completely different. Like a car is a car. Like you want to go and shop around at car yards, go for your life. But like let's talk about you with your like joinery and kitchens. Like a kitchen is the heart of a home. Like you're you're working with someone's personal space. Like you're designing something where they're going to spend mornings with family, dinner time with family functions, with other like parties. Whatever it may be. Like it has to be personal. I don't.
Speaker 1:I don't know how many times I've told this story, but maybe literally every client meeting I've ever had. But my office secretary is probably sick of hearing it. She's like not this one again.
Speaker 2:But they recorded on video, send it out. You know what we're talking about before they're like not repeating the same thing that they're meeting.
Speaker 1:My wife's a chef, so Jacina is a patissier and her mom back in her day was a chef. And when I met Jacina it was like a whole different family aspect Lots of home cooking, very involved, together doing lots of meals and stuff like that, and I looked at kitchens completely different. Well, I look at kitchens completely different, differently now, because, yes, whilst they need to be aesthetically pleasing, like some people need them to work, like it's fine to have a pretty kitchen but they need to work.
Speaker 2:It's just most people don't get it explained to them.
Speaker 1:They have to work. You know where are you going to store this? Are you going to be happy walking six meters from this end of the kitchen to that end of the kitchen to get to the fridge? Whilst these kitchens look awesome, are they going to work for you when you're in the home? And I feel like as industry professionals, that's what we're here to explain to clients and help them understand. Love it mate.
Speaker 1:Because how it like, even though, yes, we have awesome detailed documentation. Do they understand how to read that? Do they understand how to what this stuff on the plans mean? That's why all my client approval meetings are in person, because I can explain to them. Hey guys, this is what an adjustable shelf looks like. This is where your oven is going to go. This is the height it's going to be at. Yeah, for you, for us, to expect the client to get a tape measure out and go this is the height of my drawer and this is how high off the oven, off the floor, the oven is going to be Like, it's not realistic for a lot of people. Yeah, most people don't even know how to use a tape measure.
Speaker 2:Yeah, Well, it's not only that, it's seeing it in real life as well, like seeing 500, seeing 600 mil on a tape measure is different to seeing a 600 mil wide oven. Yes, it's so true, mate, like, and it's well. It flows through us the whole project. But, like you can, like I said you see more time in this room now like an incredible looking kitchen, but it is not functional at all.
Speaker 1:Eight meters long. The oven's down there, the fridge is down there and it's like cool. Yeah, looks awesome, like I probably wouldn't knock it back if I got given it, but like it's, you know, like it's got to work, it's got to be functional, yeah.
Speaker 2:And and look, I think reality is a lot of clients would really appreciate that, Like I think so. Like I know builders, but I think traders as well, Like so many people in our industry, miss incredible opportunities to build relationships with people by opening their mouth and giving them some advice. Like one of the one of the first things I say to clients now, once we they sort of make it through our process and we get to having a meeting, is like I'll, I'll, I'll tell you right now, like, don't get offended by it, but like I speak up, Like I'm I'm quite happy to bring up my opinion and then, look, I'm just trying it out there. It might help you, it might not, but I don't want to see you build something that you're not happy with in the end. So I'm going to put my opinions out there and you might run with them.
Speaker 2:You might not, but I think so many people either sit on their hands or they're scared to bring up their opinions, or they're scared to offer advice or, more than likely, most of the time, they're chasing the cash flow and they just want the friggin job. So they're scared. If they're open their mouth and complicate things, the job's going to get delayed or whatever it may be, but, and so they just want to say whatever they need to say to get the job, and it's the wrong way to do things. Like for me and I feel like you're very similar when it comes to this Like for me it is all about making sure, the day that I hand over the keys, my clients have an incredible home that just doesn't look good, but it's functional, it works for them, it's it meets their requirements. So, and to me, that's what is success.
Speaker 1:The. You see it, all the time clients practical completion move in with like defects galore, I'll come back and fix it. And three months down the track, yeah, they come back and fix it. But like you've literally had to live through like all of that I get, sometimes it's like based on client getting into homes and all that sort of thing, but it's like you know what work needs to be done. Just do it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, Like you're not going to get away with it. Yeah, you got to offer advice. Yeah, I'm sure Shay won't mind me telling this story but like he's recently moved into a new house where they they wanted a bath, they go to bath but he couldn't fit in it.
Speaker 1:So, yeah, like you've got a hey dude, you're a pretty big dude. Maybe we should get a big bath Like it's not rocket science.
Speaker 2:Like no one thought to ask questions or demonstrate the size of the bath or those types of things, like it's a home or a kitchen or anything really to do with a home to me is a personal transaction. It's not just a tick and flick Like you've got to make it personal and that's that's when you'll start getting treated more like a professional and people will start valuing your time and your important things, cause you're not just. You're not just said, I guess, get the next job and move on to the next one.
Speaker 1:At the end of the day, you'll have to deal with the issues of not providing that anyway. Yeah, so 100% there's. I'm doing a project at the moment and I know the client has specific requirements. If it means I have to spend an extra eight hours or 10 hours, providing that, I would much rather put the effort in now than when the stuff gets installed and it's not right and they're not satisfied with it anyway. Yeah. So, like you, either choose your heart, like, do the work today or deal with the consequences tomorrow.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and most people end up dealing with the consequences tomorrow because they're chasing the tail and needing the cash flow. So we're getting towards the end, but I want to go. I want to do a bit of personal stuff because, like you've turned the business around now You've got all your data, your software, you're making money, you're building great relationships. Like you've got a young family, so if I'm sure you're no different, all of it. So like family is number one, so like what's some things you're implementing or have got on the horizon to? Because you said you've just been working nonstop. Like what are you doing to get out of that? Just working all the time and get a bit of home life back?
Speaker 1:Yeah, so wife and I sat down a couple of months ago and said, hey, you know, where do we want to be in the next five years? Kids are growing up we don't want to be a part of. We don't want to miss that. What do we want to achieve personally over the next five years? And what does that look like? We've been pushing hard because we've had to and, yeah, we just sort of worked out. Personally, you know, we're happy with the way the business is going at the moment. We just want to sustain that. We've managed to onboard a couple of key contracts for us moving forward over the next couple of years. So we've just gone. That's enough. What do we need to stop myself from working so much? Or we need to make sure our estimating and stuff is on point. So we have employed a new staff member to help out with that. And, yeah, we're just going to chug along and sustain everything the way it is and keep providing our clients what they need.
Speaker 2:But it's good that you're taking the time to identify where you can bring some people into the business and get you some time back.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's really easy to just get wound up in the next thing and you know, next car, next job, next, whatever it is, sitting back and going. You know this is enough. We don't need all this stuff. We don't need all this noise and going and working out what's important to you.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and that's that's separating. Well, that's getting to that point in that where you're not making it all about the money.
Speaker 1:No, the money is still important, like the business is still going to remain sustainable. It's still going to be sustainable.
Speaker 2:But, like so many people, get caught just chasing, like everything's about the money, like they don't really have a vision or a goal or anything and it's just every day is just chasing the money.
Speaker 1:I like if it was for the money, I wouldn't. I still wouldn't be, I wouldn't be, I still wouldn't be doing it Like there's. There's no way. Just doing it for the money would have pulled us through all the hard work that we had to do to get to where we are now. I feel like there's got to be some underlying passion if you want to be successful, like the effort that you put into it is what will make you successful.
Speaker 2:Yeah Well, I'm a big believer in you got to.
Speaker 1:You got to put more time, energy and money into yourself than you do into your job and when you do that, it all starts to fall into place Like if you look at you know I used to suffer from bad anxiety, super stressed all the time, but you're only anxious because you don't know what you're doing, or like you can pull yourself out of that. It's like, ok, what am I feeling? Shoot about. I'm feeling shoot about, so don't understand my finances. It's like, ok, well, go get some education and finance, go ask some questions. Yeah, you may look dumb or whatever, but at the end of the day you don't know what you don't know. That's it.
Speaker 2:You're never going to like. I think that's a mindset thing that you and I think that's what holds so many people back, because I think they look dumb, they're not willing to go. I need help. Yeah, yeah, it takes a ownership, put your hand up.
Speaker 2:But a lot like I deal with, or used to do with, a lot of anxiety probably the last few weeks, actually, I've let a bit of it creep back in. But anxiety, definitely we created ourselves a lot of the time, whether it's whether it's pushing to have something, whether it's too much putting too much expectations on things like, whether it's like living beyond your means and putting yourself in a situation where you're stressing yourself out because you haven't got no like. Whatever it is, but not to the extent we get bad anxiety because of a situation that we've actually created ourselves and it's sometimes it can be taking the time to sit back and take a deep breath and just have a look at your situation. Maybe I need to take some ownership on this and change a few things that I'm doing. So, yeah, I would agree with that 100%.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:So, mate, it's all about family now. Like young family businesses going well? Just looking through the future and getting a bit of time back with the kids.
Speaker 1:That's it Like I absolutely love spending time with the kids. Like every every night when I come home it's like they just scream at me because they're like happy to see me and, yeah, it's probably the best part of my day.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah. And you're saying before like you haven't done anything for yourself since you purchased this business, so you've set a goal of what is it learning to wakeboard?
Speaker 1:Yeah, I want to learn to wakeboard. So I used to be quite fit before I bought action kitchens, so wife and I used to do a lot of weightlifting, bodybuilding sort of stuff. That definitely fell to the wayside the last five years. And, yeah, looking to get back into some, into something that I enjoy outside of work, yeah, why wakeboarding? Have you done it before? Never wakeboarded before? I just think it's cool. My other hobbies are too expensive so that's not viable at the moment. What are they? What sort of hobbies? Well, I really like motorsport. I really like drifting, specifically something that I've always liked. But literally every decision I've made since I was 15 has been work. Yeah, every personal purchase, car purchase, all that stuff has always been realistic. Yeah.
Speaker 2:Well, mate, it's good to have goals and it's good that you've, I guess, to acknowledge that you need to do something personally for yourself, so I think that's a really good goal to work towards. Mate, look, I really appreciate your time this afternoon Driving up here, jumping in the hot seat and telling your story. I think you've dropped a lot of bombs and, yeah, I really look forward to seeing your growth and how things progress over in the near future. So thanks for being with us Awesome.
Speaker 1:Cheers. Yeah, thanks for having me.
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Speaker 2:Everything discussed during the level up podcast with me, duane Pierce, is based solely on my own personal experiences and those experiences of my guests. The information, opinions and recommendations presented in this podcast are for general information only, and any reliance on the information provided in this podcast is done at your own risk. We recommend that you attain your own professional advice in respect to the topics discussed during this podcast.