Discover the secret ingredient to healthier, smarter homes as we delve into the realm of high-performance membranes with our spirited guests, Devin and Kevin. This episode peels back the layers of construction norms to expose how intelligent use of materials like the Proclima range can radically enhance the energy efficiency, durability, and well-being of our homes, marking a transformative shift in Australian building practices.
This week, the conversation takes a turn towards the pillars of sustainable building, shedding light on the mushrooming interest in eco-conscious construction. As Devin and Kevin explain, staying ahead of the curve in a world where regulations are tightening and consumers are demanding quality means understanding the deeper value of building materials that promise longevity. Their stories intertwine with a global narrative of change, pushing past old industry standards to construct homes that are not just standing structures but nurturing environments, built to cherish for generations.
Rounding out our insightful exchange, we examine the tangible perks that come with the meticulous installation of high-performance membranes. The duo illustrates how these materials are a boon for builders, shielding against water damage and championing efficiency. They inspire builders to set their own bar for quality, recognising that it's not just about the cost but creating homes that enrich lifestyles. By the time we wrap up, you'll be equipped with a blueprint for forging ahead on the journey to building smarter, healthier living spaces, all thanks to the wisdom imparted by Devin and Kevin.
Check out the youtube vid of Devin explaining how The Pro Clima system works...
youtube.com/watch?v=PDAg_8l8Mmo
Check out Performance Membranes Here...
membranes.build
We're on a mission to elevate the professionalism of the residential construction industry, and help everyone enjoy building and renovating homes.
Easy to use Quoting software for Builders. Produce professional and accurate proposals. Quickly and accurately measure and markup plans in minutes. Win more jobs and track costs. 21 Day Free Trial.
check out more podcasts here...
https://levelupwithduaynepearce.buzzsprout.com
Discover the secret ingredient to healthier, smarter homes as we delve into the realm of high-performance membranes with our spirited guests, Devin and Kevin. This episode peels back the layers of construction norms to expose how intelligent use of materials like the Proclima range can radically enhance the energy efficiency, durability, and well-being of our homes, marking a transformative shift in Australian building practices.
This week, the conversation takes a turn towards the pillars of sustainable building, shedding light on the mushrooming interest in eco-conscious construction. As Devin and Kevin explain, staying ahead of the curve in a world where regulations are tightening and consumers are demanding quality means understanding the deeper value of building materials that promise longevity. Their stories intertwine with a global narrative of change, pushing past old industry standards to construct homes that are not just standing structures but nurturing environments, built to cherish for generations.
Rounding out our insightful exchange, we examine the tangible perks that come with the meticulous installation of high-performance membranes. The duo illustrates how these materials are a boon for builders, shielding against water damage and championing efficiency. They inspire builders to set their own bar for quality, recognising that it's not just about the cost but creating homes that enrich lifestyles. By the time we wrap up, you'll be equipped with a blueprint for forging ahead on the journey to building smarter, healthier living spaces, all thanks to the wisdom imparted by Devin and Kevin.
Check out the youtube vid of Devin explaining how The Pro Clima system works...
youtube.com/watch?v=PDAg_8l8Mmo
Check out Performance Membranes Here...
membranes.build
We're on a mission to elevate the professionalism of the residential construction industry, and help everyone enjoy building and renovating homes.
Easy to use Quoting software for Builders. Produce professional and accurate proposals. Quickly and accurately measure and markup plans in minutes. Win more jobs and track costs. 21 Day Free Trial.
check out more podcasts here...
https://levelupwithduaynepearce.buzzsprout.com
Our buildings. Generally the four occupants create 200 litres of moisture per week. So from cooking, showering, heating, that generally 200 litres is recorded of moisture.
Speaker 2:G'day guys. Welcome back to another episode of Level Up. We are back in the shed this afternoon for another cracking episode. I'm really excited about this one. I think it's going to be very educational. I know there's a lot of people sitting on the fence when it comes to high performance, healthy homes, better building practices and those types of things. So the two gentlemen we got here this afternoon are probably the best people to help us get our heads around Some of the products and the things we can be using to give our clients better homes. So we're actually lucky these guys are made of it. One of them, bloody, hit a kangaroo on the way up and nearly rode his car off. The other one's had gastro early in the week and nearly didn't mug it either. So big warm welcome to Devin and Kevin. Thanks, we made it. I thought Chow was fine. With a joke, I mean when you give me Kevin and Devin.
Speaker 1:What's happening guys? I was in sunny Queensland. It's nice to be out of some cold weather at the moment, which is good, and settled in for a bit of a holiday myself, which is lovely.
Speaker 3:Yep, I'm very happy. It was six degrees at Melbourne Airport this morning when I got there, and it's not six degrees now sitting here, so I'm very, very happy too.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so before we get into more of your background stuff, so you guys have a business that sells high performance membranes. Well, that is your business, isn't it?
Speaker 1:Yeah, this is a performance membranes, so we sell the proclamator range and that's our core business.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so like obviously, I feel like we're at a bit of a turning point in Australia where this sort of these sorts of products are really starting to get sort of requested more by architects, designers, and there is a lot more people, especially homeowners, out there that are wanting this sort of stuff. Is that what you're seeing?
Speaker 3:Definitely yeah. So there's probably multiple reasons for that. People approach it from different angles because, in particular, the proclamer suite of products, the systems that they have, sort of address a number of things, and so sometimes it's about ensuring the energy efficiency, sometimes it's about having a healthy home, sometimes it's about the durability, because it hits all of those marks. And so you're seeing the inquiry come from all different areas, based on those different perspectives. But definitely there's a groundswell, like we're at the front of the wave and it's happening. We, as a business, we did know when I started, probably nearly three years ago now, we did no outbound marketing at all, anything. I think we reposted some stuff on Instagram from builders that use our stuff, but that's about it. We had no outbound and we were growing 100% year on year. You know, for all that, we did our first expo, I think, in June this year. So, yeah, the market's coming to us.
Speaker 3:And so that's the beauty of it, for sure.
Speaker 2:I was hearing like I have another business, livelockbuild, where we train and mentor builders to run better businesses, and one of our. We have our 6P, which we revolve everything can LiveLockBuild around, and one of them is sustainability and I think you guys know quite a few of our members from down Melbourne way and like I follow lots of builders on Instagram. Like you're always seeing people talking about this pro-climber stuff and like what's going on? What is this stuff? Because we like, honestly, until we've got some projects we've been working on ourselves recently which we've used it, the boys are actually wrapping another one of our jobs today in pro-climber. I didn't like it. It just wasn't spoken about up here. Like you couldn't even walk into a hardware like and ask for it. Like yeah. So, and I think the first, my first introduction to a high performance membrane was one of your competitors when we did our first CLT house. Like it come out pre-wrapped in this product. So I think they're fantastic, but they've got so many benefits, but like, how do we convince more people to use them?
Speaker 1:I think it comes down to like durability of the product compared to others on the market. It comes back down to like a full system control. You're managing moisture, rain that could be moisture from the inside or outside, with humidity and that sort of thing, and cold temperatures from the inside out and from the warmer temperatures outside in, so managing that humidity. And then we're obviously also talking about condensation and mold, and so condensation is massive.
Speaker 2:Now Obviously all the new changes in the NCC.
Speaker 1:Like they're bringing those changes in for a reason yeah, and mold is a now in the NCC Right and that now is a requirement for the builder to manage and we're seeing a huge change in that way for builders to be like how do I avoid mold? Because it's not a matter of is it moldy while it's being built. We all know we have 10 years of liability here and what's that seven year phone call look like when there's mold in the building or that sort of thing? And there's processes, I guess, or products that you can put in place to reduce or minimize, eradicate you know your liability. Is it 10 years down in Melbourne? Is it 10 years as a builder?
Speaker 2:Yeah, all right, I think six years, three months up here, but anyway, I take no notice of that. I think ultimately, a builder is really responsible for the life of the building.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 2:If they've done something wrong, yeah.
Speaker 3:I think that's the shift to the mentality in a lot of builders is that we're seeing the stop, and this is what we have to do is probably one of our biggest messages. We just have to stop building buildings that only last 10, 15 years. We need to build buildings that last 50, 60, 70 or more yeah, 100. You know if you can in terms of doing that, and so part of that is, I think you know builders are educating themselves more in definitely like the clients, the actual homeowners or building owners, because it's not just homes that use our products, it's huge commercial market and stuff like that. They're being more educated as well around that, and lots of that is to do with the fact that now we live in a connected world and all of that, and so you're seeing what happens in Europe and America and other places like that, and so there's more education around. But also, like people generally know well far out, we've been doing this for 50 years the same way, like and you know, we've got some problems here.
Speaker 3:Maybe we should do something about it.
Speaker 2:I think it's incredible, like the whole world is jumping on this save the planet, sustainability sort of thing, which I think is fantastic, but we have these I don't want to put a particular word on it, but like we literally have thousands of homes out there that are getting built for like that, with a design lifespan of 20 to 30 years. It's insane. And so how the hell is that sustainable when, in 20 to 30 years time, you're demolishing a house, crunching it up and putting it in a hole in the ground?
Speaker 3:Yeah, and that's and that's only. You're only thinking about the house itself. The truth is that if it's deteriorating that quickly over that amount of time, it's not healthy anyway. So the people, the occupants of that house, aren't doing well either probably the fact that it's deteriorating so quickly, etc.
Speaker 3:Means that the environment is not healthy anyway. So there's the add on cost of even that, like the healthcare and stuff that comes along with that, let alone just the products themselves and what they're doing like in that environmental sense. Yeah, it's such a huge flow and effect. And you're right, like it's, I think it's one of the biggest industries in Australia and by dollar, I don't know. You'd have to have a little building.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think it's all up by the time you take into all the suppliers and wholesalers and all the other businesses that go with it.
Speaker 3:I think mining and you know it's kind of like I will in terms of dollar value, but definitely in terms of employees, I think it's. It's one of those, you know, the largest, if not the largest, yeah, yeah, it's weird that that it's not taken more seriously in in one or if not, the largest sector in Australia.
Speaker 2:So just I just want to clear something up for people that are listening. So you, by using pro-climate, like pro-climate can be used on a normal house, it doesn't have to be a passive house.
Speaker 1:Doesn't have to be passive house and that was part of our. You know our business used to be called passive house. Construction products was our business, and 70% of our sales are conventional construction methods, high performance homes, and then you might have 30%. At the moment of the market we're selling to is passive house. So we branded two performance membranes earlier this year because we were stopping that that conversation. Like this is about building better. It's about building like long term, you know, durable buildings. It's not just around specifically passive house.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, so for every people that are listening builders of tradies, homeowners that I guess don't understand the importance of the wrap because that's what it look You're replacing the old sarking yes With a high performance product. That's correct, so like. Can you give us a little bit more insights?
Speaker 3:Yeah, sure so so the way it was done before maybe definitely explains this maybe a bit better. Around the raincoat analogy, you want to hit that and then I'll go and see what I'm doing.
Speaker 1:You know, when I was an apprentice 15 years ago, as a chippy apprentice used to like you, boss, would be like half a day get the house wrapped. You're using these hammer tackers that would cut your fingers in your nail bag and you're putting this foil on right and you got no idea what you're doing it for. You know, I had no idea. Boss just said put it on tight so it looks good. And then you go through this journey of learning about I went through 2015, did the passive house course and why we wraps.
Speaker 1:It's protecting the building. So we're protecting the building from basically water pressure from the outside, be it rain or wind or anything like that. So we're wanting to basically put a Gore-Tex jacket on the outside. A Gore-Tex is like a wicking type product that can let moisture out, with stopping water or moisture getting back into the building. So that's essentially what our weather tightness is. So our roof membrane or our wall membrane and we call it membranes is what we call it and I think the rest of the world call it now compared to sarking like we traditionally have.
Speaker 3:So the principle is that the structure of the building, the part that you're never going to change you know what I mean. You renovate your bathroom, you might pull, plaster off tiles, whatever your paint, you do anything like that that's fine. But the structure you think of the wall, studs, you know your rafters, etc. That's the bit that we want to protect, because that's the bit that never changes. And so when we wrap that and seal that up and stop moisture from affecting that, that's the bit that matters in terms of durability. Also, at the same time, you affect your efficiency because you're sealing it up so well, and then, because of those things, you also have an outcome of health. So it's really those three pillars. We're about building healthy buildings, energy efficient buildings and durable ones, and so the membranes do all of those things. And whether you go some membranes our sorry proclimate membranes yeah, sorry, very, very clear proclimate membranes, so the ones we sell do all of those things.
Speaker 3:Now, the key factor with these particular ones that really separates us. There's another small things that we can talk through, but the really key one is that these are monolithic, not micro porous. And every other membrane on the market or parking or et cetera is Well, if it's legal, is not a foil base, yeah, that's right, if it's legal to actually use, needs to be micro or needs to be vapor permeable, but they're all micro porous and what that means is that the structure of the material itself has very small micro holes, actual physical holes in there, where moisture can go backwards and forwards, like the pores of your skin.
Speaker 1:It opens in the moderate temperatures, let's moisture out, closes up in cold temperatures, but because of that movement all the time you don't get your ability out of it.
Speaker 2:So this is this is a micro porous one.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and our foils are legals, yeah we're in our climate. And our climates only can't use foils, so that often those aren't micro porous. They're actually vapor blockers in terms of how they work up here we have.
Speaker 2:Well, we haven't used foil for a long time, but you have a porous or non porous, yeah, depending on the cladding system you're using.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so basically that you know, essentially there's little holes poked in it, right Porous versus not porous, whereas so that's the difference between like pores being open or closed. Whereas our products, the proclamor products, are what's called monolithic, so the moisture moves through and it's a molecule form from the generally, from the inside, pushing out there the inner molecule form, so it doesn't have holes in it, so it's watertight, weathertight, and that's why there's a UV stability and a warranty period of 180 days or six months, whereas all the other products no one else can provide that. So you can wrap your walls, wrap your roof and you've got a warranty period of six months of a watertight building. And that's what gets you longevity, because you don't have a product that's constantly opening and closing as a membrane, letting moisture, dust air through that membrane, because over time anything that constantly moves wears out and breaks down.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so the amount of renovations we've done and you pull down an outside wall and the sarkings literally just fallen down and killed the cavity, exactly Like it's doing nothing.
Speaker 3:And a lot of times, if you look at that, some of the sarking, actually if you read it, the instruction is that it's not UV stable and you have to clad immediately. Some of it says a couple of days, some seven days. I think the longest we can find is 30 days or something, maybe a couple of months or something like that, but ours are at 180 days, so six months. So, and that's the point of the durability, and that's what monolithic gets you in terms of durability itself.
Speaker 2:And what's the warranty on the actual product is is 100 years on that, that's 100 years adhesion.
Speaker 3:Adhesion warranty on the tape. Yeah, and the the I mean the membranes, it's it's more like what they're good for. The warranty here is the same.
Speaker 2:Who's tested that Like? Has it even been around 100 years?
Speaker 1:Pro climbers testing is incredible. In Germany They've got membranes that have been set up since 82 or 81 when they started, but are still on the roof in full, like exposure in roof applications, like we're not covered up, some are covered up, some are not covered up. But their whole German technologies they won't come to market unless it's really like locked tight, which is sometimes frustrating because there's some good products we try to get here and wanting to get to market. They're really applicable for our. But they want it like code mark, brand's appraisals, facade testing it's the whole box of dice to know that you as a builder could buy the product and any building surveyor is going to approve all the testing data facade testing, wind zones, anything like that.
Speaker 1:And that's what it comes back to, the. I guess as a brand, the pro climber brand, why it stands so strong is because it's a proven performer. And I say in the training, because I run the training, install training and I say like I'm not going to be here in 80 years to test the adhesion right of the tapes, but hey, the fact that you've got 100 year warranty means that it's not letting go. We stand behind the product. The adhesive is going to work, yeah.
Speaker 3:Sorry, I was going to say they have. They have some special UV machine that tests and can do years worth it. It obviously doesn't take 10 years to do a 10 year test, but it doesn't take a day, like it's quite a long period of time, for them to do that. So in Australia we talk about that being UV stable for 180 days. That's in our climate with our UV. So we have products here.
Speaker 3:The roof one we're actually I'm looking at the model. You guys obviously can't see it on the podcast. We're going to reference that to a video after that, so it's going to be a link somewhere for you to get to this little model. We'll explain that. But there's a roof membrane there that doesn't exist elsewhere. The tape, the external tapes that are used, doesn't exist elsewhere in the world other than New Zealand, because our UV is so full on here that you need products that are appropriate and tested here so that maybe check if the products you're using are actually been tested and now UV conditions, not just any and also obviously if they're all brands, appraisal and code marked, etc. These ones have been, and so the proof is in the pudding in terms of how long they last. But it's not just in the UV exposure. Like the monolithic structure that, that solid structure that doesn't allow, there's no holes in it and it's hard for people to get their head around because the moisture actually moves through on the molecular level, Just passes through. It's more chemistry.
Speaker 2:I've seen a demonstration. We recently purchased a little bit of product off Sue's Shelton from the Shelton group. Is he in New South Wales? Yeah, you know for something that. Yeah, he showed us where he had a glass of boiling water and steam yeah, with the steam and he put it over and like one one way went through and flipped it over the other way it didn't go through.
Speaker 3:Yeah, quite amazing.
Speaker 1:It's incredible how that works yeah so I picture in a way that, like, say, you go to the snow and you're wearing a good quality Gore-Tex jacket, right compared to if you're wearing a plastic poncho. If you're a plastic poncho which is traditionally what our foils have been and that sort of thing you you'd sweat up. It'd be really uncomfortable, whereas if you're wearing a good quality jacket, like a Mac back, whatever you want with a Gore-Tex layer in it, you don't sweat up in that, so it lets that moisture out, but you're obviously not getting wet from the snow or anything like that.
Speaker 1:So, if you put it in that perspective, it's an easy perspective as a person to be like okay, that's how it works. And if we wrap our buildings our buildings generally the four occupants create 200 litres of moisture per week. So that's, that's how much from showers.
Speaker 2:That's the empty house with no one.
Speaker 1:So from cooking, showering, heating, that generally 200 litres is recorded of moisture.
Speaker 2:Of moisture is created from occupants in a home.
Speaker 3:And use obviously just of the home and stuff like that.
Speaker 2:I gotta put my hand up because I look you just, you get into the industry because you want to be whatever a plumber, a chippy or whatever, or you and you become a builder and you're like, you're taught bad habits and unless you break the mold and be a bit open minded and ask some questions, talk to guys like yourself, you don't know better this shit. Yeah, Like I mean, we've wrapped ours in the. I'm sure we've wrapped some houses in the wrong wrap, Like it's just like you try and talk to. Like it's actually been really good, Like I think in the last, I don't know, maybe four, five, six years. Like it's been really good seeing a lot of the cladding supplies and, look, I don't know if there's products as good as yours or not, but like specifying a whole system, yeah, I think that's what's been missing for so long, Like it actually hasn't. Like everyone's been, I use this bit of this, bit of that, bit of this like, and it's just been this like piecemeal put together.
Speaker 1:I think of it in the way you don't go by a rolling chassis from Holden and then you take it down the road to Kubota and you get a four cylinder diesel bolted in Right. The Holden essentially the model you buy off the showroom is designed engine, running gear, you know, the windows, everything is a holistic approach and I think that's the way the building industry is moving. Personally, it's like a bit more of a holistic approach from a builder being in control of the input of the air con or ventilation unit or the wrap and the insulation or the buildings type that's. That's changing. I think personally, from my experience as a builder, of that like holistic view of the building.
Speaker 2:Well, I think I think the biggest change we're seeing and I think we're we're definitely big drivers of it with LiveLuck Build we do a call. It's called a pack process, so pay as a consultant. So I'm seeing a huge shift in the industry for builders, designers and architects actually creating teams and collaborating more in those early stages so that whether it's design or the architect or the builder, but have people having input, so like, or it might be a homeowner coming along to a building and say, hey, I found this pro-climate product, like, what do you think of it? Can we invest that, using it at home and then obviously getting in touch with guys at itself. So I think there's a big shift coming. I think and I think you guys are in a good position to really run with it.
Speaker 3:We hope so. We're definitely investing in the market.
Speaker 2:You're setting up a branch in Queensland.
Speaker 3:Yeah, that's correct, based out of Melbourne at the moment. Obviously we can ship anywhere. You know that's easy enough to do in terms of doing that. We've got down there, we've. We've got a actually a purpose built install training facilities or actually train people how to install wraps correctly, how that's done, details, obviously you're talking about a system, not just the wrap itself or the membrane itself, but all of the appropriate window taping, seal tapes. You know liquid adhesives and how they join together. You know slab subplots, et cetera, et cetera, ruse, you know box gutters, rafter, details, all the rest of it, the whole lot. So that's the only one of its kind in Australia. There is no other membrane or or sarking place where you can go and get trained on actually how to do that appropriately, I think that's huge.
Speaker 2:I think that's huge. I look, I feel we teach our team and our team does a really good job, Like we, even when we're using other cladding system sarkings, like making sure it goes right from the bottom right up to the other side of rafter, nice and tight. It's all fixed off and again I'll put my hand up logo Stewie pointed this out to me. Only I know in the last six months or so like your sarkings actually have to wrap around inside your window jams and seals and seal it up.
Speaker 2:We're protecting the fabric of the building at the end of the day from moisture.
Speaker 1:So it's a you know and that's what we talk about in training is protecting the whole fabric of the building. So we're looking at wrapping it into our wall frames and doing our seal tapes or that sort of thing. So we're just protecting the building in its entirety, as the structure. So you draw you like?
Speaker 2:how many jobs do you drive past, especially in like volume housing estates?
Speaker 3:Oh, no, no, no. And the sarkings flapping around in the wind.
Speaker 2:You see, the chibi comes on to the cladding or the sparky comes along and they miss some.
Speaker 1:So they just run the Stanley Knife down it and yeah, well, that's right, you may as well create another door there, you know into the building.
Speaker 1:And I think like builders also have to say there's like a insurance policy behind their cladding site. So let's say you fully wrap your building, you tape to your windows, you seal up your building correctly and when you do have corking break back from foam or a timber cladding on a second story or something like that, you've got a full rain jacket behind your cladding. Yeah, instead of just depending on the corker on seven bucks a linear meter, you know to do a good type type job for your window to your cladding, end of the day, if you're relying on your corker in the studio job.
Speaker 2:I'm sure there's a lot of guys.
Speaker 3:I was going to say don't like, and predominantly, predominantly, that's what it would be to make.
Speaker 2:It wouldn't even be the corker, it'd be the painter. The painter kind of along with the gaps, yeah.
Speaker 1:And that's what it comes back to. And then you have to be like well, what, how much do I want to spend on callbacks as well in that way? So spend a bit more money on the wrap and to stand that and taping it properly, but that's, you know, your first layer of protection. Then you do your cladding, etc.
Speaker 3:And that's why it's a system approach. It's not just a wall membrane or a roof membrane, it's all of the bits and pieces together and that's where proclime is so strong that there's a full system. There's a full external, what we would call it WRB, where the resistive barrier, where the tight layer however you want to, you know, nominate that and the idea is that, again, that the whole thing is connected. It's one system in terms of doing that and that's where the protection comes from, so that there's no weak points in that system. And then we're talking about again protecting that structure, the frame, the rafter that you know. That's the bit that you want to last, that's the bit you need to dry out, that's the bit that you don't want to waste, your getting in so that you stop the mould, etc.
Speaker 2:Look, it's definitely something we're putting a lot of time and energy into, like the job the boys have been wrapping today. I think I spoke to you a little bit about this last time. We caught up Like I'm still like at the moment, we're using proclime for all the walls and we're still putting the anicon blanket on the roof. We're running the proclime right up and onto the rafts a little bit, so the sarking is actually lapping.
Speaker 1:I always say Dwayne, I say incremental change Me as a builder. I did the passive house course in 2015. And it changed my whole perspective on building and building better and longevity of buildings, etc. Building really well. But it wasn't a matter of me being like I'm going to build passive house tomorrow because that wasn't going to happen, right. But it was like on all my jobs I started using the broke line of products because I was exposed to them and how they worked.
Speaker 1:And then I was insulating my wall junctions when I wrapped my job, because it's on the energy rating anyway, right. And then I was started insulating around on my windows and taping my windows up. So, and then on the next job, it was like, ok, can we do a HRV or something like that, because I'm wrapping up pretty tight. And then I started talking to my window suppliers about what type of windows can I get that are better performing? Like you know, I've got a piece of aluminium or a single-waste aluminium window here that's just radiating like a radiator to my entire living room. Like how can I break that and put some good glazing in? Just those conversations that it's like you don't have to change it all today, but it's like I wrap my walls and take my walls up and my windows better and I'll put my insulation in my wall junctions.
Speaker 1:On this job and the next one you quote, you're like all right, we're going to tackle the roof wrap, you know, or doing a ventilated ridge, for example, and it's just like each job, because building takes a long time. I talk about the building industry being like a barge, right it moves really slowly.
Speaker 1:And that's just the way how it works. But and so it's like each job you just can like, include that next layer and have that conversation with the owner, have the conversation with the supplier and that sort of thing of how to build better with each project than being click your fingers and the next house is going to be a high performance house out of CLT and etc. So it's about like, well, I've got this $700,000 job down the road, it's coming up. Can I talk to the owner about wrapping better and hear the benefits for them Durability, you know, efficiency wise and health wise and then be like OK, the extra two and a half or three thousand in material cost. It is a small percentage of the overall building cost. It's not like we're changing the roofs to terracotta from Italy type thing. It's a very small change on a building project but it makes a huge difference in the long term. Liveability.
Speaker 2:I'm definitely sold on the wall wrapping all the tapes and siltypes and things. I think it's a no brainer. And they I think I think I know there's going to be a lot of alarm bells ringing from things. You're just saying Like there'll be very few builders that take the time to have a bit of insulation on site before they start putting their sarking on and they miss the joints in the corners and the wall junctions. And, like the other, my other pet hate is like when you have your internal plier bracing on and you put their sarking on, there's a big, big part of the wall it hasn't had any insulation put in it. Like, have a bag on site, the boys put it in before they do the paper. But I think it's like it's just for us. It's been so much quicker. Yeah, look for a start. I love the massive rolls.
Speaker 1:What are the rolls 2.7?, 1.5 or 2.7s in the wall Right it's one run.
Speaker 2:Generally most, most walls. It's one run and you're done. Yeah, and you staple it.
Speaker 3:Well, the roof comes in three meters as well. So it's a one, five and a three meter. So the roofs, if you get to that point, are the same. Like they can go real fast.
Speaker 2:Yeah, well, we did the roof on these, the three products I've showed you, but I've heard Hamie's talking about it and Mark from NVH and Stewie, and I didn't believe that you'd be able to put a sprinkler on the roof and it's all sealed up, yeah yeah, yeah, like it was literally an hour. After putting your wrap on Like we did, we got the hose out, we stood on the roof and tried to see if we could get water to dry. Yeah, that's right.
Speaker 3:I think I was going to say I'll just put my sails hat on for a second and I'll mention something Dev said then about you know, realizing the incremental change 100%. You know that's the way to go. Take one step at a time and we're there to support you through that. You know what I mean. No condemnation, maybe in terms of OK, that's where you're at, that's great, it's better than what you did yesterday. Isn't that what you always want to do as a builder? Do better than what you did yesterday, so great Step in the right direction.
Speaker 3:The argument to say that I need to go to the owner to get the OK is questionable, because the membranes themselves, if you put them on, can offer benefits to the builder, particularly financially that you'd have to look at the numbers on every build but potentially can benefit you anyway.
Speaker 3:So if you wrap the roof per se, let's say you do wrap the roof, you don't do the Anticorps, and you put the wrap on the roof and the walls and you seal it up. Well, now you've got a weathertight box and I'm talking like in the middle of a storm. I remember the first time I did training with Dev. It was like my goodness, it was out of control and we are dry Like there's no problem, there's no water coming in, nothing like that, because it's absolutely. I mean, they're watertight to 10 metres of water pressure. So that's a PVC pipe, 10 metres of water, with the membrane on the bottom, and I can't remember if it's 24 or 48 hours, not a drop, so you don't have any worries about water coming in. And so when you do that now as a builder, you run into programs because you've got an internal and an external.
Speaker 2:So when it rains, yeah, no downtime, so you're inside.
Speaker 1:Your frame's finished.
Speaker 3:So now I've saved you on the on-site toilet, the fencing, the supervisor costs, all the weeks that you can save at the back end of the job in terms of doing that, let alone because you've used a quality product. Now, when the apprentice roofer doesn't do quite the right thing and there's a small leak okay, if it's a big leak you need to address it, but if it's a small one, it's going to run onto the membrane. If the building methodology is right and again we'll reference the model which you can see afterwards, but you'll see in terms of ventilated cavities and stuff in the roof Then the water's only going to flow down into the gutter anyway, even though the roof fails. Now, normally that's not going to happen, but in this case it will and you won't get a callback. Now what's that one callback worth if you're on a second story? Skaft, roof art, everything, the whole lot, my goodness.
Speaker 2:Again, mate, the amount of renovations we've done, so we're. I know there's always talk about mold and stuff. I haven't had a lot of experience with it Like touch wood. I think we build good homes. I'm not aware of it in any projects we've ever built and a lot of renails we've done. We've never seen it. The moisture problems we see in homes are generally around bathrooms and wet areas from faulty water purging or whatever, or roof, like there is always signs in every house on the plasterboard of somewhere where water has gotten in and so that's it right there.
Speaker 3:And I say, okay, if you do the numbers and you think you need to talk to the owner, I'd say, as a builder, if you work out the numbers, I reckon we're probably saving enough money anyway, let alone the sleep at night factor.
Speaker 2:Look, this to me is a Like we talked a little bit of air off there. Like to me, this is a no-brainer. But you builders use this excuse too much that they've got to compete on price, and this is definitely something that I'm on a mission to change, like you need. I believe builders need to set your own standards. Like every builder out there, you choose what you want your lowest standard to be of building, and if that is wrapping every building you do in pro-clima, then you don't even talk to the client about it.
Speaker 3:That's a great standard by the way, that's definitely where you should start.
Speaker 2:But it should be across the board, Like builders, instead of competing on price all the time.
Speaker 1:There's builders out there who say that I include solar on all of my jobs and that's now the standard. You know it's the same thing. It's like. This is our method. This is the way we do things, because I can provide a two-stage project. My Chippies don't disappear and I'm not looking for them to do work because the roof is still three weeks behind his project. They can be internal plaster straightening and roughing in the job even without a roof on it. So that's there.
Speaker 2:But even if like if this builder's out there to worry because it's going to cost him a couple of thousand dollars more to wrap a building up, like even if you do want to mention it to a client, like it's to me again, it's a no-brainer Like you, educate the client on why you want to use the product.
Speaker 2:And nine times out of ten, most clients are going to go. Look, it's a no-brainer Like if that's going to give me a better performing house, better outcome, healthier home, I'm happy to spend the extra money. Like so many builders, I think, drop the ball because they don't educate their clients, so the clients can't tell them what they see value in and they just think they have to race to the bottom on price all the time to win the work.
Speaker 3:That's the premise of our business, in truth. Yes, we make money, pay our wages, by selling product, but we don't have a product business. We have an education business. We know that we have a service-based business and we are educating the market, the entire market, on how to do this better, how to build better homes and, in our particular case, obviously using high-performance membranes to achieve that end. And so everything we do is based around this education and service. We just happen to sell stuff that actually allows us to do that job and that's actually why it's going well, because that's our passion to help people. It's actually to say you can do this better and we can help you. And when you see people, you know I don't know what the numbers are, but in terms of people, once they use the products, let's call it they convert for one of a better word, that number, where they don't go back from there like we're billed to say that's it. I don't care if they ask or not, it's priced on every job I'm doing, from this one forward, once they use it. Once would be higher than 90%, 95 probably and higher.
Speaker 3:There's a few ones that we've dealt with that you know. It's been specified. They don't really care too much. They just did what they were told kind of thing. They didn't really care, but anyone who's you know come and got educated about it, used it. That's it. They're sort of done. You know that this is what I'm doing. It's such good product to use. Like you said, it's beneficial in terms of the bunch of things. It's a full system to do all of these things. It's durable, it's healthy. There's always so many benefits from it that people just say, well, this is a no brainer. I should put this as part of what I do and so that's generally what happens?
Speaker 2:I want to ask you a few questions because, like, obviously the passive house builders out there, it's a no brainer, they're already going to know about this stuff. But, like, for builders out there that aren't building passive house, can we just can I ask a few questions about things that they might be wanting to know? So we've talked about the cost. So it is dearer than your normal savings Installation. Like I feel with the few jobs I've done, it's quicker.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and that's really like if you do some training, like install training as well or watch some videos, it's quick and gets it done.
Speaker 2:Obviously it depends on what level you go to. If you're putting all your steel tape in that, it might be a tiny bit longer, but I think overall I'm finding it quicker yeah.
Speaker 3:Yeah, definitely. It's such a good product to deal with in terms of even. You talk to your ability, but you talk about the robustness of the product. Like you can't tear it. Do you know what I mean In terms of where that is? And so you're literally just using a sharp knife. A stapler we recommend if you're, particularly if you're up on the roof walls, you might get away with something you might. But generally there's a DeWalt carbon fiber thing that's geared in the handle stapler. Use a T50, that's kind of a standard staple that goes in there and that doesn't hurt your hand. You have that on your hip and that's about it, like there's not too much to it, and it's very, very simple to install and particularly if you come and do the install training or you understand, we can actually walk you through that and stuff like that. When you understand the process, it can be very fast in terms of getting that done.
Speaker 2:Do you have to have a baton on the outside of it for cladding, or can you put your cladding straight onto it?
Speaker 3:Generally? Yes, you do. I think in our climate zone you need to anyway, so you wouldn't put that in. You need a ventilated cavity down in Melbourne. It would vary in different places, but you want to ventilate the outside. So what's going to happen? We'll do a quick science lesson. Can we do that? Yeah, so what's going to happen is in terms of moisture management.
Speaker 3:So we all understand moisture is going to move from hot to cold. That's the moisture pressure in the air. So if, say, we're at home in Melbourne, if I'm inside and it's winter, then it's warm inside, cold outside. So the pressure, that moisture where that's going is going from the inside to the outside. So it's actually pushing through the plaster into the insulation and then trying to get out of the building, which is why, where we are, we're not allowed to have vapor blockers on the outside anymore. They need to be vapor permeable. You need to have moisture be able to get out of the insulation though, so you stop that from happening.
Speaker 3:In summer it's the opposite hot outside, cold inside, so you have moisture pressure actually coming in Again in that particular climate zone where we are. There's no real moisture in there because it's relatively dry. You go north up here it actually is. So now moisture becomes a problem in summer because actually you've got inward diffusion going inside to the house, so you need to manage that in terms of how that works, and so that's the actual issue that we're trying to fix in terms of doing that is where we manage that moisture, which way it's going all at once in terms of when you have those membranes go on, and so that's the sort of key in terms of so I guess I have noticed a lot of the cladding supplies now are adding a button to their system, so that's obviously part of that, like creating that extra ventilated cavity.
Speaker 1:Ventilated cavity just breaks that thermal break as well, like an air layer just provides that heat or cold slows it down getting to the building.
Speaker 3:So the moisture's coming out. And that's the point of that ventilated cavity is the moisture comes out and then it can dry in that cavity, it can roll down. So if you think of a roof, it's probably easier to do on the roof than on the walls. If you think of a roof, you've got moisture pressure coming from the inside. It'll come, you know, sort of past your rafters, let's say through the membrane. It'll go, it'll hit the underside of the roof sheet, it'll condense, it'll drop onto the membrane.
Speaker 3:Let's say you don't have what we call a counter baton which is in line with the rafter. It's hard to, if you can visualize it, but in line with the rafter you just have a normal roof baton which is horizontal, the perpendicular, so horizontal. If that horizontal baton is sitting directly on the membrane, the moisture comes through the membrane, condenses on the underside of the roof sheet, drops down, it tries to roll out, it hits, the baton sits there. Now, if that has a lot, and again you've created horizontal like baffles in your roof and so now there's nowhere, there's no movement of air.
Speaker 3:So you've got multiple issues, because now you've got heat problems in summer, let alone moisture in terms of other times of the year. And so if you ventilate that, if you lift those horizontal roof batons off the membrane and allow ventilation underneath it, what happens is the moisture comes through, condenses on the roof sheet, drops onto the membrane and goes out. So you've got a drainage plane. It actually goes out of the building. But you've also got, in addition to that, in summer, if you've got a pitched roof, it's going to draw like a fireplace. Cooler air is going to come in at the bottom and hot air is going to expel at the top.
Speaker 2:And so the stack effect?
Speaker 3:is it Exactly? And so what happens is your roof's not working as hard. You don't want to do a roof. What does it get to like?
Speaker 1:90 degrees when you're done testing for and monuments. The hottest color at the moment that we've tested was 96.8 degrees. The proclimate tested we've tested about 50 roofs, even beyond night sky we thought night sky would be hotter but monuments the hottest and, most well, all the other products are only actually tested to 70 degrees. So under a roof it's getting to 90, and the products are the sarkings are only tested to 70 in their code marks as it tested and certified to 110 degrees. So it's a big difference. Like I'm sure, I would hate to hop into a Queensland roof in the middle of summer.
Speaker 1:So you know, that's you know, the pink baths scared, the weird people you know passed out and stuff, like it gets hot. To know that your product's not going to break down in that heat. You know when it does come to in that way. Is it recyclable.
Speaker 3:I'd have to get back to you on that I think the point of the product, more around the ecological bit, is that you're protecting something the large mass of the building for a very, very long time, for a very small amount of material in terms of what it is, and so that's the real premise. In terms of what it is, I don't know that it's designed to be recyclable.
Speaker 2:It hasn't been around for that long anyway, in terms of so ultimately like if it's got a hundred years warranty, like it's if a building lasts a hundred years, you've done really well, yeah, and that's the bit is like you're actually saying I'm going to protect everything for a very, very small amount.
Speaker 3:So, actually, again, really quickly. So Proclima started with a paper-based product because of that reason. So it was more recyclable, ecologically sound, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. The problem was durability. You still can't protect the building for that long, like only a few years. It starts to break down. So they did go to a polymer-based product. But that was the point of it is like you're paying a small cost but you're protecting everything for a very, very long time. And so that's the basis, is the overall outcome. And some people do, some people get caught up in the that one product isn't this particular thing, and that's the desire for short, that as many as we can, in every way. But really what we want is the overall outcome is the best. Well, you want to build things that are going to last, and that's the bit. And so we can protect all of the other things which are recyclable, all the other things which are, you know, more sounded, more whatever, and so do better. So if you can do that, then we think that's the best way to go about it.
Speaker 2:I think you touched on it before, like the beauty that you can keep a structure for a long, long time. Yeah, yeah, if you want to come in and tidy up your bathroom or do in your kitchen or renovate a bedroom, like, it's all good, but your structure, when you cover it up with products like this, is going to last a very, very long time.
Speaker 3:Oh, truth is that in 50 years you could peel your facade off because it's worth doing it at that point. Rewrap it, re-clad it. Yeah, good for another 50, I reckon.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and like that batten you're talking about, like the counter batten or the wall carry, like it literally only has to be like 20 mil, like I know a lot of guys are ripping down like treated decking in half and just using that for their battens.
Speaker 3:Yeah, so per acclimat, recommended 20 mils at minimum. The 45 is the max and if you do do high eight, you get more draw in that. You know, like we were talking about, you're going to get hot air expelled at the top and cooler air coming in down the bottom in your roof per se in your walls as well. That you know, depending on you know how much sun exposure and stuff that you get. But, yeah, 20s sort of the recommended sort of detail.
Speaker 3:The truth is that if you're doing a job today, I have to be very careful here and this is going off a bit off the reservation in terms of proclamers recommendation. The truth is, guys, if you're doing a job today and you're listening to this and you're thinking I was going to put my cladding on, I've already got my windows in, I don't have a lot to do. The truth is that a five mil packer that pulls the cladding off the membrane that will allow something is better than doing nothing. Yeah, that is the truth. It's not what you would recommend but it's better. So if you can do that, if that's a position you're in and we often find that people come and, like you, they learn. Just now you're thinking far out. Things are going off in your head, light bulbs and and they're like, but I'm in this position today.
Speaker 1:do something You've got a sheet of seven mil ply left over on the job and it's just ripping packers out of it or something like that, so you're not having to fork out extra money, but it's just getting some sort of again. It's just this incremental change and doing things better, you know, step by step.
Speaker 3:So those are always vertical, just to be clear. So those those what we call counter batten, so they're in line with your ball stud or with your after. So you're basically sandwiching the membrane between the two pieces essentially is really how it works between the start and the external batten, or the rafter and the external batten, and they're in the vertical sense always. And then you're, you're, you're cladding. So if you had horizontal cladding, that would just go directly on that, that's fine. If you had vertical cladding, you would then have a horizontal batten and then you know, like that, yeah, so what's, what's your guys background?
Speaker 2:What makes you so passionate about getting involved with these membranes?
Speaker 1:Yeah, so for me I'm in DBU in Melbourne, it's domestic builder unlimited. I'm not sure what it's classified as here, but I did my start of my apprenticeship 2005,. You know, as a chippy went through that whole journey, did my apprenticeship, went out on my own, wanted to start my own business, and I did in 2013. And I guess I started. I did a tender for a project and I was a passive house. Never heard of it before. I was a building surveyor, was the client. He's like I want to build a passive house and so he's like there's a course coming up, you should go and have a look at it.
Speaker 1:So, 2015,. I did that course passive house tradesman course first one run in Australia and it really just changed my perspective on building and building better. And so I thought, well, if I'm going to do passive house or I want to pursue that and build better, I want to sort of try it on myself. So I built my own house as a certified passive house Six years ago now. We moved in and I love it. Like often, I walk around in shorts and a t-shirt and it could be three degrees outside.
Speaker 3:It's so annoying because I live in a 1950s weatherboard. You can see the ground through the floorboards and we live in virtually the same place.
Speaker 1:In Melbourne. Right, it's a 20 square house, cost me 450, without margin or anything at the time, to build and that's triple glazed windows from overseas. It just changed my perspective on building. And then at the time of building that I had one person who's our other business partner Justin had talked to. He's in Hobart, he's had experience with it. So I'm like no one else has done this taping, no one else has done these type of windows that I know of in Melbourne. So I'm like relying on all these phone calls and YouTube videos, which wasn't as strong, let's say, six, seven years ago now.
Speaker 1:And so in that journey then starting to get the products in for other builders and do that with Justin, performance membranes has become my main thing rather than building, and a lot of that is because I get such great satisfaction out of helping builders achieve high performance house and passive house without the hard earned learnings Like I lost money on quite a couple of the first passive houses I did.
Speaker 1:And if I can help builders like I've done 10 certified houses myself and lots of high performance homes but if I can help builders, make it less intimidating, achieve a really good outcome and have an industry that essentially I like really like the saying of rising tidal ships. I love to help people get better and to see the satisfaction when they hit an air tightness target of a high performance home of one, or air change as a blow door test or something like that, or just build better to limit their liability or to have a homeowner be really satisfied with the outcome. I really enjoy that. I've done building for enough years that I enjoy the change, I guess, rather than being a builder at the moment.
Speaker 2:But I like being able to get on site, do the training with guys or get on site and see them and actually see how other people build and help the industry as a whole get better, I think it's really important that you've come from the industry Like, I think, for anyone that's out there trying to make change, I just add so much value when you've actually been in the trenches doing the work yourselves, like you've learned all the experience so you can go out there now and, like you said, tell guys what they like. All the hard yards you've done the hard yards, lost some money on some projects, which isn't funny, you know, but the fact is that you can do it.
Speaker 1:You can do it really well. You can do it for affordable prices. We're not talking. You know, when I was Dysion in my house, people said to me so you're building a high performance home, it's a, you're building a spaceship, but it's not that my house is in. Mount Deneanong was the first certified house in Australia with a fireplace. We opened the two windows next to the fireplace when we run the fireplace. My wife wanted a fireplace. That was it, so we did it. But it's a matter of that. Like you know, we built a weatherboard house because I'm a carpenter. I've got palm lawn, daves, recycled red bricks, like it's a traditional home and you couldn't see it any different from the house next door. But it's a certified passive house that uses, bugger all energy and is a comfortable, enjoyable home.
Speaker 3:Yeah, awesome what about yourself, mate? My journey is a little bit different and I have quite a checkered past when it comes to the construction industry.
Speaker 3:Technically I'm a qualified mechanical engineer though that means anything because I never used it or anything like that. I did five years with an architect after that, so I really had a passion for buildings etc and things. And then I did some other stuff in the middle a bunch of project management and stuff worked for a builder, did essentially a construction startup doing multi units for a while, had a fair bit of knowledge around town planning and general construction, and so that was really helpful and with a sales bent, and so, yeah, I did some other things. Then Dev and I were friends for a while and then I was actually doing something else. I was doing a startup business and yeah, during COVID, that sort of ended that and yeah, I literally I spoke to my wife and said I think we had a startup and I had some investment and we were doing that.
Speaker 3:I said we have to stop. We're spending all this money, we can't actually do anything, whether we're stuck in a COVID's ruin, that we have to pause. You know, I said I think I should get a few days work a week or something like that, and and she said, yeah, I think that's a good idea, we should do that. And then Dev rang me the next day and said hey, what are you doing these days, you know? And I said actually I'm looking for a couple days work. He's like, oh, because Reuben who we was talking about before is, he's leading handy, he's looking to do more in the building business and so Dev could spend more time in the membranes was leaving and so he had to go back in.
Speaker 3:Dev had to go back into the building business and then obviously he was looking for someone to come into the membranes and so we're both very relational people. So the business that we have is, because it's so service-based, is very relational. So the three of us just and Dev and I, we deal with us. I don't know what the number is we've never done but it might be between four and five hundred builders or something at the moment. Yeah, and we would know, one of us would know, you know, they could be connected with over 90%, 95% of those on a first name basis you've got some knowledge for someone that what you've been doing this for three or four years yeah, kevin, when he started Justin, now the technical, he would call him our technical lady.
Speaker 1:He lives in Hobart, so he, we get to send all the the owner builders who want really the trenches. Yeah, what's the vapor permeance rate of the blah blah waiters like, oh, he's Justin's number, yeah, but so he, he's our technical lead. But Kevin and I relate really well to one another and work well together. Um, but he gets to, you know, deal with all the phone calls and all that sort of thing, yeah, so it's a very, very steep learning curve.
Speaker 3:So I um I definitely have a gift and ability to to learn a lot. I'm very passionate about this kind of stuff, and so for me, it's really too pronged. I have, um a passion to build a great business. In terms of, so I definitely come on um. You know, technically we have roles I'm a business development manager but when there's only three of us, let's face it, you know you do a heck of a lot more than what you need to or Karen offers to your office sorry in terms of Karen all this in and she'll be like I cast yeah, that's right, she'll be spewing yeah, she's actually the backbone, yeah, of the mechanics of what we do, um we can't survive, you know she's the backbone that we don't see um everyone's got team behind the scenes
Speaker 3:that's right. But so for me, there's this. There's this business bent for sure you know, in terms of the strategy of what we do and how we do it and how to build the business, have a great passion in terms of doing that and um. The other is to help people. Like we said before, like the um, the.
Speaker 3:I wouldn't stick around if we didn't have what I believe is the best product. Yeah, because I don't do so. I guess you know I have a sales focus, but my sales pitch is here's a product, these are the awesome things about it. If you like it, buy it. If you don't, that's okay. Like I'm not, there's no. I've never done a sales training course in my life or anything like that. There's no manipulation, it's just literally old school, kind of, you know, 1950s. This is it. If you wanted, it's great and I believe it's great for you, but that's it. There's no more than that, um, and so, yeah, there's really that sort of side which helps me. So I need the, the good product. I need to believe in what we do, which I do, um, in terms of doing that, and then I need it to to actually be relational.
Speaker 2:I need to be able to to relate to them all, and so yeah, I think it's really powerful, like I, one thing that really shits me is people that tie who they are, what they earn, all this stuff to the job they've chosen. Like, at the end of the day, if you're passionate about something, you'll you'll make a good living and a good income and be successful.
Speaker 3:Yeah, like it doesn't matter what education you go, it'll you find the come from, like the best businesses, are about serving people, and the money is an outcome. It's, it's an outcome of that. Do you know what I mean? And so your passion whatever that is in terms of how you apply that is actually to serve people in some way. In terms of how you do, that might depend, but you know, in this particular case, you're building better buildings. You know you're helping people on that journey. You're getting them better outcomes. You're serving those people in that way. You're serving the people that work for you too, in terms of the, the job satisfaction and building better things. All of those things. You know you do that and the money is the outcome, yeah, of actually doing that, of actually focusing on that passion 100 percent, whereas most people focus it the other way around yeah, they're trying at the money and it never works.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah so, um, you mentioned air changes. This is I need to go and look into this more. I've done I've been doing a few courses recently again just to get expand my knowledge on hrv units and, like I went into the c-bell the c-ball, yeah training day and been doing some healthy home courses and things. What? What is the is? Is there a national construction code? Amount of air changes not yet not yet, because I was told at one of these training sessions that there is a maximum air change in austria of 10.
Speaker 1:That's sort of in that hers the rating seemed. They set a borderline in the back end of the um, like testing essentially, and the computer system is 10 air changes and that's what they base it off. Yeah, our understanding um jesse, the lead tech lead scientist, building scientists with um pro climber austria. He sits on the board with the ncc um um doing all this change and management stuff and how ncc is happening. The conversation is that air tightness is already in the ncc. It's about what it will be on the next ncc, but worldwide there are targets of air tightness. So it's not a matter of if, it's a matter of when air tightness is a requirement loving thing about ncc.
Speaker 2:Yeah, asking some of our past clients if I can go and do a blow door test because I feel like one of the, like I said before, I'm still sitting on the fence with the passive house um, but I love her. With passive house, like, you basically have a rulebook and you know that if you do this, this, this, this, you'll get this guaranteed outcome. And I think the rest of the building industry really files because, like, if they like, there's no data there. So, like, if they come out and say, hey, well, you can't have any more than 10 air changers, how will I know how to achieve that if I haven't tested some of my past builds and got some indication about what we did, what we used, how we got there?
Speaker 3:Well, it won't be. When it comes in, it won't be 10 anyway, Like it'll be a lot lower than that.
Speaker 1:It'll be more like a five to eight. Yeah, but whatever it is, yeah. Like there's going to have to be something and understanding if you have to achieve that and that's going to be the window manufacturer is being good because felt seals and dodgy sliding doors are not going to be able to comply anymore, and that's gonna. But I could say that if you do a full, complete external building wrap, not just an internal wrap, to achieve the NCC requirement, you will meet and exceed the tightness.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I actually think it's easy, like a lot of people freak out and think it's gonna be.
Speaker 1:I didn't blow it or tests. A week and a half ago for a builder in Melbourne and they just didn't external wrap, so slab stuck it onto the side of slab, up the walls and across the roof, fully wrapped, first time. First time they've ever done it. A blow a door, just a double glazed UB-FEC. Not a high performance like super special windows, like I could see the sky through some of the joins and stuff right. But they got to 2.2 air changes like which is a super tight building, like it's a good building in that way, but you have to. There's also the build tight but ventilate right. So ventilation comes a key part. But you've got systems like Mitsubishi. They make a ducted air con with an add on mechanical ventilation.
Speaker 2:Yeah, a lot of.
Speaker 1:I think there's a couple of them doing it yeah they're all bringing it out because they know that the industry is moving that way World wide. It already is. It's just, we're just.
Speaker 2:Because that's the other side of it, like, at what level do you have to put mechanical ventilation in?
Speaker 1:It's recommended under five air changes. Yeah, that's right.
Speaker 3:The recommendation, I think, is three to five in Europe. Under three you have to, but the recommendation, I think, is three to five that you should, in terms of doing that. And there's a question to round like say, you're talking about heating and cooling there with a HRV and how that works, that once you get to that point when you put a HRV in because it's so efficient in terms of bringing air in from the outside if we can maybe have a chat about that in a separate time, do you want to talk about HRV as well?
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's very accurate.
Speaker 3:So the base of HRV is obviously fresh air. You're trying to get fresh air into the building, but what they're doing in terms of if it's heat recovery ventilation, you can have other ventilation systems, but in terms of the most efficient way to do it is having a heat recovery one. And what that does is it changes the energy from the air that's inside the house and puts that energy into the air that's coming in from the outside. And so let's say that it's. Let's say we're up in here in Brisbane in your place or whatever, and it's summer, it's hot outside 35 or something, and inside it's 21, because you've got the cooling on, and so it's drawing stale air from inside that you've breathed and all of that kind of stuff.
Speaker 1:So it's extract from your kitchen bathrooms, toilets.
Speaker 3:It's taking that, pushing it outside the building and it's bringing air in from the outside, fresh air, and what it does is, as it crosses, there's a heat recovery and it takes the energy from the air inside and it converts it to the air outside and so that air now I think they're like 98, 99% efficient something silly like that and so that 35 degree air is now coming in at 22. So you don't have to cool 35 degree air, you only have to cool 22 degree air. And so you're heating and cooling load in terms of the system that you have. I don't know the details, but there might be ones that we've seen that might be going on heating and cooling 60 grand or something for a house. And now you put a heat recovery in which is costly might be 20 grand or something like that but you've dropped your with the wraps, obviously because you need the wraps, and then you have the HRV, but then you've dropped your heating and cooling to maybe 15, because you don't have the load anymore, because you've created this. Yeah, but aren't you?
Speaker 2:also doing. Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't you also not like, instead of you might've needed a 26 or 28 kilowatt aircon unit you're now using like a couple of little split systems?
Speaker 3:That's what I mean the actual heating and cooling, not the ongoing cost in terms of the actual system is reduced.
Speaker 1:Instead of like two multi head systems or two ducted systems being 28 kilowatts, you could have one. I've done quite a lot of high performance homes that I wrap and insulate well, do good quality windows, and we're putting in maybe 12 kilowatt as a ducted split into a 30, 35 square house. Right, my house as a passive house again, that goes to that different level. My house runs on a two kilowatt split system. It's a 22 square house, a two kilowatt split system. That's the heating and cooling for the whole house. Yeah, it's unbelievable.
Speaker 2:It's just definitely worth people having like learning more and having more education about this. And can we go back and talk about mold a little bit? Oh, we touched on it at the beginning.
Speaker 3:So sexy. We should definitely talk about mold.
Speaker 2:The mold is. It is getting talked about now Like that's pretty much why a lot of these NCC changes have come in.
Speaker 1:Yeah, well, now it's in the NCC and it's a requirement to the Build and Manage mold.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I don't. I honestly think, look it amazed me. I get, you get the emails like in Queens I hear it's QBCC master builders like they put on these information, anything's in your go and they tell you what's going on and there might be like a bit a hundred builders there. Yeah, Like people aren't keeping up with what's going on. And then it's not something you can just turn a blind eye to. Yeah, Cause mold is terrible for our health. I'm currently doing the Zara Dakota's healthy home mastermind course Like it's just, it's unbelievable. Yeah, yeah, the products you put into our homes and condensation, yeah, Like that's huge. So your product does help a lot with condensation, doesn't it? Like it allows the house to breathe. That's right.
Speaker 1:It's getting rid of all of the all of the issues around mold or condensation in conjunction with a ventilation unit. Essentially they're the two that you don't wrap tight ventilate right. You know you. Just when you do wrap tight, you ventilate. But that means you're getting rid of that moisture, rich air from your shower, from cooking, from being in the house Like a normal house with four occupants produces 200 liters of water a week. You know that's from your steam. You could see it if you're in a badly ventilated apartment with no fan right and you turn your shower on, it's almost dripping from the ceiling right.
Speaker 1:And that's just one shower, let alone you're heating unit or anything like that. And so when you're talking about that amount of air, you're going to get mold because it forms right. So getting rid of that by having ventilation. But then we're stopping moisture getting into our wall cavities and we're managing the air coming into the house though it's not moisture rich or anything like that through building tight and wrapping right. Then that's how you manage moisture and mold condensation.
Speaker 3:Yeah, so changes from our climate zone to climate zone, and so that's one of the keys and why whether you haven't gone into detail around all you should use this product or that product because it changes, but it's the system that matters.
Speaker 3:And so you have that weathertight layer which is actually managing moisture down. In Melbourne it would be as per the model that's sitting here, that we'll see later in the video. Another plug, and you'll see that in winter again, you've got that moisture pressure inside to out, so you want it to be open and making sure that moisture can get through the insulation layer and get out through that. And then in summer it's relatively dry, so you've got no real moisture coming in in terms of because the moisture pressure is the other way, but it's a relatively dry climate. Now when you so, that product's okay. But when you come up north, basically it's probably anywhere just about past mid New South Wales or somewhere like that, where that changes. And so you have very moist summer in the air, very humid, a huge amount of humidity, and so now in summer, when it's warm outside, cold inside, you've got moisture pressure going in. You've actually got moisture trying to get in to the house in the air, and so we're not talking about rain or anything like that. Obviously that happens, but we've got that covered because it's monolithic again and all of that. But when that moisture is trying to get in, then you have the same system but different products. So you have a different wall membrane that's used in that, or different roof et cetera, but it does the same thing. So you're protecting, depending on your climate zone. You still have the same essential system that does that.
Speaker 3:In terms of how that works. There might be some small tweaks and things like that In some specific areas. If you had way up north, you know past Cairns et cetera, you know where they're doing stuff with cyclonic stuff and they're fully bracing buildings. You know all the way around and stuff like that. The Intelli, so the internal air tightness layer, which we haven't gone too much into, but that's a smart layer. So at times it's an absolute vapor blocker so it doesn't allow any through, but then it changes to diffusion open to allow inward drying so that actually other times of the year the moisture that is in the insulation, they can actually come into the house and get dealt with by the HRV something we didn't mention before.
Speaker 3:The HRV doesn't just do the temperature, it's humidity, so that's actually taking care of the humidity in the air Does.
Speaker 2:humidity is something that no one talks about, isn't it?
Speaker 3:Yeah, that's correct.
Speaker 2:You've got to manage your humidity.
Speaker 3:Yeah, so in that place inside. That's why it's really we're hand in pocket with HRV. Do you know what I mean? We don't sell HRVs or anything like that, but the reality is that there's so many good things about them in terms of what they do. The air quality inside is so much better because the humidity is taken out, the mold risk is decreased or expelled completely. In terms of doing that with a good membrane, you can't just have the HRV. It doesn't work. You almost need both in hand. But when you do that, it minimizes then your prime cost of heating and cooling et cetera. Like we talked about before, there's all these things, and so if you look at the system together, that's what the key is. And so, yes, in terms of managing moisture condensation and the effect mold, et cetera, depending on climate zone, obviously reach out performance membranes that's wwwmembranesobuild or performance membranes or something on.
Speaker 1:Instagram, like as a builder, we look at the build and we might be in a bushfire zone. So we know we have to look at the code and we have to be like where does it land for bell 19? Or in a bell 29, et cetera, flame zone. So we're learning. We've learned that as builders, we understand that method. We're almost learning now. Okay, we have to learn about climate zones and how moisture is affecting our buildings. So we're delving a little bit deeper into our climate zones now and it's gonna become in three years time or four years time we'll be like how come we didn't talk about climate zones previously or anything like that? But it's just another string in our bow as a professional industry of builders, where you have to know that we're not just set and forget. You have to be upskilling, you have to be changing, you have to be learning, like through this, to listening to different people, to how to do things better.
Speaker 2:I think I think timing's right, Like there is so many people like you only got to look on Instagram. And like there is so many incredible passionate tradesmen, builders, that are just putting information and knowledge out there and talking about mistakes and learnings and all those types of things. So, look, I'll take my hat off to you guys for getting it out there Like I think the timing's right. So how do people find? Obviously, Melbourne, you're big. What's the goal in Queensland?
Speaker 3:Yeah, so we'll have stock on the ground here any day in terms of there, so you'll be able to get that picked up locally, or whatever.
Speaker 2:So this podcast probably won't go out till possibly even early 24. Yeah, so that's okay. So that'll be stock on the ground. That'll be stock on the ground. Yeah, so that'll be stock on the ground here.
Speaker 3:So we'll be essentially commuting for a time. We're both Dev and I, both have family here in Queensland et cetera, and so we've decided we're gonna do rockpapers to see who gets to be here permanently. But obviously the market here, what we will do, is you'll be able to get, so we'll do install training. You know we'll set up a facility to do that here. You know we'll be able to come out to site check details et cetera. We're always available to do that. Anyway.
Speaker 3:I mean the first, I think the first I try to remember eight, maybe 10 months of the jobs I started in the second year of COVID. Now I know that didn't affect you at all in terms of going to work, but it affected us in Melbourne and so I think the first eight, 10 months I didn't see a soul in the business in terms of doing that. So we can definitely help, you know, in terms of doing that. But yeah, we'll come up regularly, we'll be here, we'll be boots on the ground and that's the key, I think, in terms of doing that, in terms of level of service, product readily available et cetera. But definitely in Melbourne, if you're down there, we have an install training facility that's permanently set up down in Knoxfield in the east of Melbourne. We have a couple of warehouses there that you can get product from. Our website is wwwmembranes with an S M-E-M-B-R-A-N-E-S dot build. Yes, that's all it is.
Speaker 2:Membranes dot build.
Speaker 3:There's no dot coms or dot a's when it's so trendy. We have dot build, and so you can find us there, instagram is Performance Membranes.
Speaker 1:A-U is the handle.
Speaker 3:And so you can see all of our stuff there.
Speaker 1:And that's really like agriculturally run by myself, but it's, I would say, at this stage, and that's really, though, a brain's trust of like how to do a roof. Check out the highlights, check out the photos. It's like all these shared ideas from guys like Sanctum Homes, mvh, brad from Sanford, these Blackburn builders, guys who are, like I call it like leading the charge on making change in the industry and doing things really well.
Speaker 2:I'm kind of to meet that Brad from.
Speaker 1:Sanford.
Speaker 2:Yeah, he's in Zara's mastermind, I'm doing it. Yeah, he talks like he's so knowledgeable he's doing that hand pass or just finished that hand pass.
Speaker 3:He's fantastic.
Speaker 1:Yeah. So guys like that, you know it's shared a lot of knowledge from them on how to do a connection detail and that sort of thing. So it's not something that's, you know, polished, but it's something that, like, I've built, as I've done, 350-odd people in the last three months through our training facility and that's a class of 12 people at a time. So there's the hands-on, getting the experience, and we'll set that up up in Briss2. But it's a matter of, like, learning it and then you might not come to a window for three or four months as builders, right, but it's like, how do we do that at the training? Again, it's like jump on the Instagram, look at the windows highlight reel and it'll just refresh your memory, sort of thing. Or, if you're not sure, I didn't have that when I built my house, yeah, yeah, and it was painful. You know, I'd rather share that knowledge so people can be like it's achievable, how do I do it? Let's smash that out. That makes sense.
Speaker 2:Yeah Now look, guys, I really appreciate your time. It's an absolute cracker. I am pretty confident I listen to your lot of knowledge out of it and hopefully your phones start going crazy and more people get on board with this stuff. But keep doing what you're doing. I'm really keen to see where you take this and hopefully I look forward to driving around in Queensland and seeing a lot more homes with your product on. Yeah, that'd be great Thanks.
Speaker 1:Brian, Cheers guys Pleasure. Thanks so much.
Speaker 3:Are you ready to build smart, live better and enjoy life? Then head on to livelightbuildcom forward. Slash elevate to get started.
Speaker 2:Everything discussed during the Level Up podcast with me, dwayne Pierce, is based solely on my own personal experiences and those experiences of my guests. The information, opinions and recommendations presented in this podcast are for general information only, and any reliance on the information provided in this podcast is done at your own risk. We recommend that you attain your own professional advice in respect to the topics discussed during this podcast.