Get ready to experience a seismic shift in your understanding of the building industry's landscape as we navigate through its complex challenges with a panel of experts that are passionate about their roles within the confines of the building industry. I'll be handing over the reins to the wordsmith John Harris and a collective of industry experts including Gabriel Barnes, Frank Geskus, Kyle Zanetto, and Wayne Gorman. This episode promises to elevate your insights on systemic issues, from the alarming trend of cutting corners to the resistance against adopting international best practices. Together, we dissect the resistance to learning, the pitfalls of lax regulation, and the critical need for a collective march towards quality and sustainability in the construction trade.
As our expert panelists unravel the intricacies of the industry, we also spotlight the urgent necessity for client education. The dialogue cuts through the noise to reveal the impact of combustible cladding on insurance premiums, the importance of transparency in project costs, and the significant role of trust in building a self-sustaining business. Moreover, the conversation does not shy away from calling out the inadequacies of current licensing and regulation, highlighting the need for a united regulatory body that would ensure accountability across all levels – from architects to tradespeople.
Join us for a thought-provoking session that goes beyond mere reflection, as we explore actionable solutions for the building industry's pressing concerns. This episode is a clarion call for collaboration, education, and reform, aimed at fostering a healthier, more accountable sector. Through the lens of seasoned professionals, we illuminate the path towards a reformed industry, championing the message that only through concerted efforts can we achieve the high benchmarks our communities deserve.
We're on a mission to elevate the professionalism of the residential construction industry, and help everyone enjoy building and renovating homes.
Easy to use Quoting software for Builders. Produce professional and accurate proposals. Quickly and accurately measure and markup plans in minutes. Win more jobs and track costs. 21 Day Free Trial.
check out more podcasts here...
https://levelupwithduaynepearce.buzzsprout.com
Get ready to experience a seismic shift in your understanding of the building industry's landscape as we navigate through its complex challenges with a panel of experts that are passionate about their roles within the confines of the building industry. I'll be handing over the reins to the wordsmith John Harris and a collective of industry experts including Gabriel Barnes, Frank Geskus, Kyle Zanetto, and Wayne Gorman. This episode promises to elevate your insights on systemic issues, from the alarming trend of cutting corners to the resistance against adopting international best practices. Together, we dissect the resistance to learning, the pitfalls of lax regulation, and the critical need for a collective march towards quality and sustainability in the construction trade.
As our expert panelists unravel the intricacies of the industry, we also spotlight the urgent necessity for client education. The dialogue cuts through the noise to reveal the impact of combustible cladding on insurance premiums, the importance of transparency in project costs, and the significant role of trust in building a self-sustaining business. Moreover, the conversation does not shy away from calling out the inadequacies of current licensing and regulation, highlighting the need for a united regulatory body that would ensure accountability across all levels – from architects to tradespeople.
Join us for a thought-provoking session that goes beyond mere reflection, as we explore actionable solutions for the building industry's pressing concerns. This episode is a clarion call for collaboration, education, and reform, aimed at fostering a healthier, more accountable sector. Through the lens of seasoned professionals, we illuminate the path towards a reformed industry, championing the message that only through concerted efforts can we achieve the high benchmarks our communities deserve.
We're on a mission to elevate the professionalism of the residential construction industry, and help everyone enjoy building and renovating homes.
Easy to use Quoting software for Builders. Produce professional and accurate proposals. Quickly and accurately measure and markup plans in minutes. Win more jobs and track costs. 21 Day Free Trial.
check out more podcasts here...
https://levelupwithduaynepearce.buzzsprout.com
Clients need to be educated on the value for what they're getting. They need to value their building designer. They need to value their builder. They need to value their building seller Nine times out of ten. If you ask the client who their building seller is, they'd have no idea.
Speaker 2:G'day everyone. Welcome back to another cracking episode of Australia's number one construction podcast, level Up. We have an absolute treat for you today. I'm actually going to hand over to John to do the intro, because this next one is something very different. It's going to be a bit of a conversation, maybe a bit of a debate, but we are really going to open up a can of worms of everything that is wrong with our building industry. Let's go.
Speaker 3:Everything that's wrong with our building industry. How long is this going? For Six and a half weeks.
Speaker 2:What's wrong and how we could possibly fix it.
Speaker 3:Yeah, good, great topic. And all power to you, dwayne, for bringing this up as a topic, because a couple of the people in the room three of them have been in that conversation with myself for over six years and one of them, I know, has been involved with it for years and years and years and indeed had a meeting with the Minister and a couple of industry heads and and nothing's happened. As a matter of fact, all we did was apply homeowner warranty warranty to Tasmania, which didn't work last time. To my left. We'll do it kind of alphabetical. So Gabriel Barnes has divested his shares in other companies and been running metrics group. For what now? Gabriel? Eight years, eight years, and he's indeed a straight shooter. I met him at the Institute of Building Surveyors and when the question and answer session was on, gabriel was the most intelligent of them and the most eloquent with the issues and I thought what a great guy to know.
Speaker 3:Frank Geskes, outgoing president of the Building Designers Association, whose members do 80% of the work in Australia. Frank and I have known each other for a few years. His genius is that he's cobbled together a team of building designers and the relevant trades to give consumers an end-to-end solution. When you deal with Frank, you only deal with Frank's team and their results and their awards as building designers and developers is well known here in Tasmania and probably Australia wide. Kyle Zanetto I only met the other day and I said the other night he was a winner and winners attract winners. But the fact is that Kyle's team are a reflection of his genius, which is building together teams, which is what we spoke about the other day, and it's great to see you here, kyle.
Speaker 3:We're in your house, mate. What an incredible thing. Only place I've ever gone to the toilet where you didn't need the toilet seat warmed because the floor already was. Wayne Gorman as well. Wayne and I are long term friends and colleagues and Wayne's just reminded we've seen each other twice now in two weeks, which is the longest period. Wayne is a licensed building assessor. Am I going to get this right, wayne? Three-in-one construction, give it to us. What do you do, buddy, on a day-to-day basis? Not a lot, come on, come on. You've started the Australian Energy and Environmental Raiders Association, which has now been morphed into ABSA. Why did you do that? What came of that? Where was the drive and the motivation to say wellriel, be might, be um, authorizing your house. Frank might be designing it, kyle might be building it, dwayne to be sitting criticizing the margins you're making, but you're part of it, wayne, where does that? Where does that fit in for? Just for the listeners today?
Speaker 4:well, my part's the energy efficiency side of it, and whether that comes at the start or the end depends on who's doing the project. Part of compliance, maybe part of someone's dream to make a seven-star, eight-star passive house, passive plus now, where you have to have your house contribute to the energy production to feed the whole suburb. Is that mandated and legislated? Now? In Germany it's now the catch cry passive plus.
Speaker 3:And of course, we're all meeting people who don't believe that CO2 is a problem.
Speaker 5:You'll be like mate.
Speaker 3:without CO2, trees won't grow. But if you go to China and you go to Guangzhou, the sun doesn't rise or set, because you can't set because of the pollution. All of the trees in Guangzhou were new and had stays and supports and I asked our translator why are all the trees so new? She said all the old ones died. And I'm like why no oxygen? Our translator why are all the trees so new? Said all the old ones died and I'm like why no oxygen? So those of us who do or don't believe that co2 is an issue, you need to go to china. Is that enough of an intro?
Speaker 2:mate, that's yeah, you've got me, but that's all right. No, I'm getting to you now.
Speaker 3:I didn't want to be interested no, I was joking.
Speaker 2:I was joking, and of course we.
Speaker 3:we do also have another grayhead builder here with duane piercene. It's your podcast. I didn't know until the other day that you still maintained a building industry company that you are hands-off with. And for those of you who are watching today, who are builders, to get to hands-off where a Kyle Zanetta or Dwayne Pearce can actually extract themselves from their company and it runs just as well without you, that's nirvana. Yeah, probably better Less disruption, isn't that interesting?
Speaker 2:Well, that's the aim, mate. You've got to install trust in your team, build a culture and surround yourself with like-minded people so that they can continue to do things just as passionately as what you do, and so therefore, why isn't it Nirvana for all of us?
Speaker 3:You know, why did you say to me the other day when people jump in with your other businesses, they send you their financials. And what was it? 80% to 90%.
Speaker 2:Oh look, that's my opinion. I firmly believe that, yeah, probably 70%, 80% odd of builders are trading in solvent. They're chasing their tail. They need the next job to get to the last one. These guys will talk about it. Let's get the conversation going. That's a huge reason why there's so many issues in our industry. They don't quite the job properly. They chase their tail the whole job. They cut corners to try and get a bit of money in the bank. A lot of it happens behind the scenes, like behind walls and under concrete, where they don't put the right mesh in or not enough mesh, or they don't do the correct insulation, because do the correct insulation like, because, let's face it, the client walks into a finished home that's nicely painted and the pillows are all flushed up, fluffed up, and thinks it's awesome.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah, we only notice the externals, I the visible surfaces. I noticed today, gentlemen, finally, that frank's company wouldn't do it. Um, but those with black roofs, not in tasmania, in all the other states. It's costing them an extra 700 a year in aircon, and I could only imagine the generation required. And yet, on that same day, albo says we're going to contribute a yo, many billion dollars and start making solar panels in australia. I'm not sure how many people realize this. We invented solar power. We didn't invent the sun, but we, you know solar hearts been going for 70 years, you know so, so, but they're all micro challenges. Really, it's this big picture that we're together. So, gabriel, um, frank, myself and a couple of others, we've approached the minister here in tasmania to say why don't we do a round table and tease out the problems and, to your credit, that's your raison d'etre. Yeah, why? What is wrong with the building industry?
Speaker 2:so well we need to do. I think john, we need to do it like it think John, we need to do it. It's guys like us sitting down here today. This conversation is going to be very interesting. I'm super excited about it because, let's face it, government isn't going to solve the issue.
Speaker 3:No, if the government is the answer to your problems, you're asking the wrong question. We talk about homelessness just as one second here, as almost an aside. If we talk about homelessness just as one second here, as almost an aside, if those who could fix homelessness would, they would have, but they can't. And the fact is that, as we sit here today, there are people living in tents just down the road, while there are empty houses. So there is a massive disconnect between the political will and might and then the realities of the world. So, gabriel, do you want to lead off in a couple of minutes? What do you think's wrong with the building industry? And you've got a great overview of it all.
Speaker 1:A couple of minutes. Oh, a couple of minutes, okay, just the salient points.
Speaker 5:This is the abbreviated version.
Speaker 4:Yeah, yeah, good.
Speaker 1:What's wrong with the industry? A lack of competence or practising outside level of competence, and that's across the board Building surveyors, designers, builders, the whole bit. The second would be the lack of enforcement and meaningful enforcement and accountability for the production of whether it be the building surveying, the architectural design documentation or the actual build, and the lack of consumer protection. They'd be my three headlines Good one.
Speaker 3:Well, hopefully everyone's writing those down at home. Frank, I know that you're a solutions-focused guy. What do you think some of the major problems are? I?
Speaker 5:totally agree with Gabriel on quite a number of those. The correlation between the NCC National Construction Code and the Australian standards how freaking hard does it get to work together? And they don't contradict each other. We were only talking about that the other day. It's just mental. You can't even choose which type of waterproofing. You know waterproof is one of the biggest claims. Yet you've got the deem to satisfy, uh, in the ncc, doesn't? Uh, it's contradictory to the australian standards.
Speaker 3:Yep there it is, pal. You just nailed element. One of what's wrong with the building industry is that the regulation and the regulators are obviously not hands-on. You know if you come into this house that kyle's built and won an award for and look, he's waterproofing. He knows as a builder that it's more. The weakest point of the house is the waterproofing and if you don't get that right, we've all seen what the cost factor of that is.
Speaker 5:And waterproofing is one thing well, that's only just for the bathroom. What about keeping your building water tight and also able to breathe? Yes, and now we're talking about this again. The ncc, bushfire regs, hello, condensation, mold problems, sick home, yeah, doesn't get any simpler than that, does it? We're just, we're building this stuff to make people sick. How stupid are we?
Speaker 3:and and and unless someone draws a line in the sand and says all right, yesterday these houses were unhealthy but tomorrow they won't. My house is 1905 building inspection, all that you know. It's a one-star haps. When, when canberra did mandatory energy with it. Or what is this house going to cost to keep hot or cold? Um, you, you can. Houses in a random went down two hundred thousand dollars and barely no one was going to touch them. Now those houses are worth 1.9 mil.
Speaker 3:We've had lots of schemes and projects to to improve the energy efficiency. But energy efficiency bushfire attack levels the materials we do or don't use. Now we all know that wet studs are no good. You've got to dry them out before you clad them. Moisture in and out, all those things A bit scientific. But it's, you know, march the 28th or something, 2024, and we're still not getting it right. No government person would stop and say, hey, you're right. Consider Dr Tim Law's billing a minimum and use that as a base to improve the industry going forward. Yeah, kyle, what about yourself? What is the problem? Is you're a leading bill?
Speaker 6:It's the fundamentals around it, Like it's the pillars that's being taught as an apprentice and the steps that you need to actually start your own business. It's too easy and you go and get a builder's license and stuff. So I think the next business course placed in funding license and yeah, I think that.
Speaker 6:And then it's the like now that we're getting the passive, you've got a set criteria, you've got that is acceptable and I'm often all of the steps instruction have to meet that specific standard and that means order is going to deliver on the cuts, exactly what they're getting put eight or ten steps through home, through thermal cameras, outing inspections, all that the cowboys out there wouldn't bow to them. It means the quality of the homes up there's going to be less insurance, often the standard of the lift and that's going to protect the builder customer. So I think it needs more education. There needs to be a better standard or height for the bar that's set in the industry.
Speaker 3:I was wondering when you were going to implement it actually.
Speaker 6:Carl, I've started it.
Speaker 3:Okay, what's your own business.
Speaker 6:Yeah, we just set a minimum standard for ourselves and we start with the highest risk in construction and that's watering grass into a home and water within a home. So that's the first mandatory requirement we put in. So that changed with the battening system we use. Every roof and wall was double-battened, it's all pro-climate, it's all taped, it's all water-tested, because that's where the most risk is in a home. So we cross that out first and then we look at all right, what's the next thing? It's condensation, it's moisture management within a home. So we look at mechanically ventilating the home. Give the house some lungs. Let's keep the occupants healthy by doing something inside the home which provides a good sanctuary for them. So they're our top two at the moment and we'll just keep pushing, pushing that boundary to build better and better homes.
Speaker 5:And ban golf scutters.
Speaker 6:I wish.
Speaker 5:We have a rule in our business. That all golf scutters have to be approved. They don't get approved.
Speaker 6:Yeah, like all these 1.5, 2, 3 degree roofs. Like, what most builders don't understand is most of the products that you're actually putting on won't actually warrant it, like even the Pro Climber. Now, if we're doing a 2 or 3 degree roof, we're solid sheathing it, we're doing an adhero system and then we're also making sure that if we've got a non-permeable membrane, such as a pie in the ceiling, we're managing the moisture at the ceiling level with an airtight layer, hrv. So it's cool, we've got a flat roof, we can stop ponding and we can get airflow. But we're creating another issue within the home which gonna rear its head in a few years with all the vapor diffusion up into the roof space. So that's not a five or six thousand dollar issue. It's like here's another fifty thousand if you want to do it properly or you just use your fucking brain to start and raise a picture of the roof one nil.
Speaker 3:Ladies and gentlemen, kyle, it's. It's interesting. We start with okay, what's the problem with the building industry and it's education? It's the, the, the barrier to becoming a business owner in the testing regime behind becoming a building owner, and we end it with this is what we do and it is the new standard. And if you don't follow that and I wonder how many of the viewers and the listeners would actually know what you were just talking about, because I happen to know that the one of the largest and I won't mention them one of the largest volume builders in Australia said, and I quote why would I put in permeable membranes when it hasn't been introduced into law yet? And it's like oh, let's just wait. You're building more crap homes. So you're talking legacy homes and I know a number of other builders are too that your reputation as a builder and the only way to get word of mouth is reputation, and if you're building crap houses that rot and mould, that's not going to go well. Wayne, you've been in it for how long now? A long, time.
Speaker 4:Just to take up your point on making things legislated. There is a certain company that got involved in asbestos a few years ago that I won't mention and they sell products in Australia that are not performing but in New Zealand they got taken to court and they won't sell them in New Zealand but because they haven't been taken to court in Australia, they keep on selling it. So that that's the big players have the push to do that. Leading on from the conversation, I look at it and go it's risk and it's risk of fudging.
Speaker 4:How can I fudge all the things I've got to do to make it work? So if I've got a glazing calculator, how do I fudge the figures to get it to get a green tick? If I'm in a corner and things don't go together, well, how do I fudge it to make the corner fix and cover it all up? So it doesn't work. It's just a continual fudge through every sector, from start to finish, and unfortunately that's just the culture and the way we are. It's fudge it, make it work, hide it, move on Next house please.
Speaker 3:Oh boy, All right. Anyone else got any other challenges they'd like to identify?
Speaker 1:Well, I'll give you one Good.
Speaker 3:I knew that all through.
Speaker 1:You don't know what you don't know. And you just brought up the fact about understanding the vapour permeable membrane and the installation. And why would I build a better home than the building code requires me to? The building code is always chasing its tail. It's never up to current standards. We had that problem with polystyrene cladding because we know better than the rest of the world. We don't need to look at what New Zealand's been telling us for 20 years about polystyrene cladding. No, no, we'll implement it and allow it to be used. Lo and behold, we've got what New Zealand had. We did the same thing. We lifted the energy efficiency of our homes up to such a standard that we now have condensation and mould. Europe could have told us that 20 years ago and we could have.
Speaker 3:Yeah real rocket science.
Speaker 1:We could have told us that 20 years ago and we could have, yeah, real rocket science. We could have implemented a system so as we didn't have the mould growth and the condensation. But no, no, we know better again. And, as I said, it's this thing about you don't know what you don't know. And if you're not willing to admit you don't know something and go and find out or accept that people have been there before you.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I banned foil ten years ago on anything I certified. I had the director of building control ring me, tell me I couldn't do it under the Act because he'd had a complaint from a insulation provider from down south whose name starts with F and basically, commenting on this idiot building surveyor from Launceston, the director rang me and said you can't do it. You can't enforce more than the building code Minimum standard. I said okay. I said that's fine. I said I'm going to continue to do it. You take me to the appeals board and you have my peers tell me I'm wrong. Yeah, then I'm okay with it, but until then I'm protecting my business and my professional standing from a lawsuit yeah, building surveyors probably.
Speaker 3:Uh, carry the can.
Speaker 2:And well, just to carry on from what Gabriel was talking about that, um, that is what every single business in the construction industry needs to do in Australia set their own minimum standards, because if we all continue to follow the minimum standards that's in our rules and regulations, we're going to continue to build shitty houses or sick houses.
Speaker 5:Yeah, sick houses. But isn't it interesting though? As we were talking before and you probably have in your state, we have it here too. There are people going around claiming to be builders. They're not builders, don't have a licence, haven't got a clue. Taking cash off people to do a job, do a half-baked job Needs to be knocked down. They rack off to the next job.
Speaker 3:Hey, don't criticise my business model, thanks.
Speaker 5:Yeah, okay, but I've seen it with pool builders, I've seen it with the customer doesn't know. You've got to have a licence to do what we do.
Speaker 2:It is so tricky, bart, and we're going to go round and round and off topics here everywhere. But I agree 100% with what you just said. There's a lot of people out there that are just doing unlicensed work and not following through. But the other side of that and I did this and I don't want to take it away from young people because everyone deserves a chance but you get people coming through their trades and then the family, the friends want a cash you've done on the weekends and all good and well, earn a bit of cash, do some extra work. But I know myself from a few apprentices that have reached out to me that are doing some jobs on weekend and they tell me what they've done and I'm like, mate, you don't have the fucking experience to do that. Like, why didn't you ask me or tell me you're going to do that?
Speaker 5:and I could have give you some mentoring yeah, mentor, just ask some, because I encourage the same my team do a couple of love jobs.
Speaker 2:So you have all these young people out there that think they're doing the right thing, doing some weak cashies, and nine times out of ten, those cashies are adding a deck on or renovating a bathroom which is where a lot of our problems are when it comes to moisture and things and they're doing things wrong. And so there is so many things that we can like. I don't want to um. One thing I definitely don't want from this um session is to put a downer on everyone, because the other thing is there is a lot of incredible people out there doing great things. But I would actually like to come back. I'm not going to Everyone's already covered the problems that I think are out there. I really want to come back to Gabriel's three Well, everyone's, but I think Gabriel's were those three that you mentioned, mate. They're the key, I think.
Speaker 1:Well, that's what. 30 years ago when I started more than that as a kid at building savannah, we used to have a building control act in victoria the word control, building control act. Every building act in the country has dropped the word control. Governments use building acts as an economic stimulus for the building industry. The building industry doesn acts as an economic stimulus for the building industry. The building industry doesn't need an economic stimulus. I mean it's booming or it slows down. There's nothing wrong with it slowing down. I think when it slows down we actually get a better build than when it's booming.
Speaker 1:But because we've dropped that word control, we've also dropped the mindset of control from within the act. So we slap people on the back of the hand for doing something wrong or, you know, with wet shoelace. We're not penalising people for screwing up. We're not penalising people for ripping people off. The discussion we were having earlier with a particular person who won't be named $200,000 he's taken off people around Launceston, 14 counts of fraud, went to the magistrate's court and was whacked with a $40,000 fine, no requirement to pay back the $200,000. He's taken off people and he's still trading. He's still ripping people off.
Speaker 1:He's not trading, he's just an absolute rip-off merchant and targets single women, single mothers, retirees. There is target market and the government just doesn't seem to have any will to stop him.
Speaker 5:Have you contacted any of the local bikey clubs to help out?
Speaker 3:Stop using my credit control mechanism.
Speaker 1:That's not such a bad idea. That's the type of thing that needs to happen.
Speaker 5:Yeah, it's no different to scammers, is it yeah?
Speaker 2:But that whole regulatory control and a few of you touched on it before like it's not just, it's across across the board, it's architects, designers, surveyors, engineers, builders, trade. Like it's the whole system needs a shake-up. Like I can't believe that we have plumbers with their own rules and regulations and associations sparkies with the same thing. Architects have their own. Like how can, how can we all um be made to conform and, I guess, set good standards when everyone's running under these, all these separate rules and regulations?
Speaker 6:like black list you have three strikes and then your name gets banned from benham trade again or do something where there's actually a really severe penalty we tried this years ago under the Building Act to do a points system.
Speaker 5:No different. With your driving, you get demerit points If it's been proven that you've been fraudulent or doing defective work clearly defective but also including all the sub-trades in there as well, because I believe the sub-trades, the ones that are unlicensed, are also causing a lot of the problems. And there are some really good sub-trades. The ones that are unlicensed are also causing a lot of the problems. Well, and there are some really good sub-trades. They're awesome. But there is a couple like in every industry, they're going to do something not up to standard or well below, or do something crap.
Speaker 2:We've all got to have the same. I actually got caught out. If you look up my license, I've got a defect against my license. About 12 years ago again, I was quite young and as being a builder it was probably my fourth or fifth year quite a large three-story home on a really big stoping site, but the it was probably. It was just before it sort of ran out of warranty maybe six, six years, five and a half years, and water kept ponding on like four tiles, like 20 cent piece, like a couple of mil deep.
Speaker 2:And anyway, long story short, I kept telling the owner like there's not much I can do with it, we've built it as per the plans. The deck actually has fall on it. And anyway they just kept whinging and whinging and, um, well, I shouldn't say whinging but complaining, and I eventually got a letter from the qvcc saying hey, we're having a meeting on site, you need to come out. And anyway, when we actually went to site and we looked into it further and we pulled some string lines and levels, the deck had 50 50, it was a four and a half metre deck. It had 50mm fall on it.
Speaker 2:So we'd gone above and beyond. We'd put enough fall on it. What had actually happened is the joist had been sized wrong and the deck had sagged just enough to allow these couple of tiles to hold some water. And basically, long story short, I was the last man standing, so they tried to go back to the man standing, so they tried to go back to the designer and then they tried to go back to the engineer. The engineer shut down his business and got bankrupt. I was the last man standing. I was made to repair it and that's how it works.
Speaker 5:Last man standing, you've got insurance. Ideal target speak.
Speaker 3:Can I just add one more too? I don't know about the qbcc or the process of becoming a builder in Queensland, but I do know at one stage in Tasmania we took the builder's licensing off a proper board and gave it to an ex-politician. And I'm sitting there with a multimillionaire in Hobart who is more of a farmer than anything else, and on the back wall was his certificate for Class 3 buildings. And I said I didn't know you were able to build commercial buildings, not the least of which you can't spell stud, let alone pretend you are one. And he said oh yeah, well, they were giving them away, so I thought I might as well just buy one. I mean, I said what you bought it. He said, yeah, you had to pay a sum of money and you just got it.
Speaker 5:I got one the grandfather clause system.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and I'm thinking, oh, my goodness, now he's a nice bloke and he's certainly got the money to back up his claims if something goes wrong. But I think it was you, frank and this is for julie collins, the housing minister and a senior advisor if you've got a house sitting on the edge of an ocean that's clearly worth 1.2 million and you accept a quote for 800 000 because you don't know what the house is worth, I'm all about the consumer, right? So, yes, it's nice that you're all in the industry and you want to protect the trades, the reputation, the financial fiduciary and the standards. But poor old Mrs and Mr Homeowner, they thought, oh, $800,000, that's about right, that's what we budgeted for. But it was a $1.2 million bill. Well, it's not finished still and it's rusting away and the people don't want to do it.
Speaker 3:The minister throws her hands up in the air and says there's nothing we can do. Hell, yes, there is, and I think it was Frank and it might have been you too, gabriel, and certainly is Wayne is what is the capability of the person quoting the plans? Imagine if the plans had to go through a panel and the quotes had to be ratified. I mean, we've still got fair trade. We're not Stalinist Russia yet. But if this quote is demonstrably less than what any blind Freddie can tell, is the value of the home. Quoting to win jobs to keep the men working is one of the greatest downfalls, because we drop our margin.
Speaker 2:The tending scenario has to go, because this isn't just at residential level. You see this on huge civil projects, government projects, commercial projects, it's across the board. And when you have governments coming on advertising and news and media saying that they've given the go-ahead to such and such because it's on the contract, and then 12 months later I forget the exact numbers Like you see, we've had some pretty big infrastructure projects in Brisbane over the last couple of years and like they, well, the perfect one's the one at the moment the Cross River Rail. Like it's, I think it's pushing a billion dollars over budget or some shit, only that.
Speaker 3:We're going to build a stadium for $715 million that hasn't been drawn yet.
Speaker 2:That doesn't fit. So that's the thing. How can you expect mum and dad, homeowners to understand when we've got governments and industry bodies that aren't getting it right?
Speaker 6:I've got friends that are electricians that will go and do their certificate and get their builder's licence and do developments. That's a thing, isn't it? You don't even need to be a builder. How does that make sense?
Speaker 1:I'll make a statement here that's probably going to offend some people.
Speaker 5:Go, go go.
Speaker 1:The HIA and the MBA are not the industry's friends. They are self-absorbed, running their own businesses and their own membership schemes. They have they have a reason for their existence and that is to train as many builders as they possibly can, because they've got a member for life. When they do, it's a sausage factory. I've sat there and and seen them give the answers at the end of the night to the collective that are training.
Speaker 2:But to go a step further than that. The government uses our industry to prop up the economy. Yeah, we are the only level left. Every time there's an issue, it's oh, we've got this incentive to do an apprenticeship. Get your builder's licence. And interest rates up, we end up with a. We've ended up with an industry.
Speaker 5:We've got this incentive to do an apprenticeship. Get your builder's license. What interest rates are? We've ended up with an industry. How come you guys can get apprentices?
Speaker 2:get subsidized for it, but mine can't.
Speaker 5:I think it's ridiculous, mate, I've trained 80% of my staff and I've shelled out for all of it. I don't get any subsidy or anything We've applied. It says no, you're not part of the building industry. So what do you guys work off?
Speaker 2:Yeah, but that's the thing. You're not because of the way it's set up. That's what I mean. You have architects, designers over here, plumbers over here, sparkies over there, tradies, so the thing is probably the most mixed up. One is builders are thrown in with all the other tradies, like isn't it crazy that the builder that is the one that's responsible for everything yes, has the same license that these tradies have?
Speaker 3:yes yeah so thank you, gentlemen, for uh, I wish we had some ladies here, because I'm sure that the the empathic nature of of most women would also be slightly different to the nature of six men at a table. And we did actually try and get some women to replace you, gabriel, because we knew that you would be contentious. I'm in a jacket, mate. There's no one as good as you, so we know what the problem is. And if we had a whiteboard and we'd listed them off and we were doing a round table today with the six of us, we could then say right, here are the major issues with the building industry, what's the answer? Because it's always going to be what's the answer first? Right? So should we go back around the table in reverse? Then we'll give you more time to think of the answer. What do you think the solution is, dwayne?
Speaker 2:Well, this conversation, the people at this table, could solve the problem. I know my answer is my training business, live, life, build. We are making it simple and easy for builders to understand how to run a business, so that's my number one. If we get builders understanding their data, their numbers, systems and processes becoming a professional business and getting out of the mindset that they are a trader or a builder, that's my number one business, and getting out of the mindset that they are a tradie or a builder, that's my number one. Number two would be um, the industry needs to get on a level playing field. Like I said, we, we all need to be licensed or all I don't know like run under the same scheme architects, designers, engineers, plumbers, sparkies, tradies. We have to be managed by the same people, I think.
Speaker 3:So what a national construction overview oversight committee kind of thing where those five or six people would be industry experts and know what they're doing and talking about to be able to regulate and administrate and accredit Well more so just to get everyone accountable, Like, let's be honest, Like if everyone knows that the builder's the last man standing and he's the one that's going to have to take responsibility of it.
Speaker 2:because a builder signs a building contract, it doesn't matter what the fuck, what's on those drawings. He is responsible.
Speaker 4:Yeah.
Speaker 2:So why? Like? I'm not saying that people do the wrong thing or don't care because of that, but everyone would be a little bit more cautious of what they do if all the consultants were responsible. All the trade the trade is probably the biggest one. Make every trade responsible for what they do. Don't just put everything on the builder. And my last one would be our whole rules, regulations, construction codes, nccs, all those things need to. We live in a big country with a lot of different climate zones and a lot of different Needs.
Speaker 3:Needs, needs Different types of housing.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and yet we're all supposed to follow the same sets of rules.
Speaker 3:How many climate zones have we got in Australia, wayne? Lots of them. Eight, seven, eight. Have you got any advances? Eight, eight, I've got eight ones, ladies and gentlemen, csiro's got 62.
Speaker 4:62, yeah, csiro's got 62.
Speaker 2:So you've got a builder in far north Queensland that's following the same regulations as someone down here in Tassie.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and building on Bruny, facing Antarctica with gale force winds, is rather different than building in Inverill. And yet the quality of the build still has to lift and instead we're actually using pine studs with a nail gun shatters the end of the stud. Put a bit of 3mm brace board on it. She'll be right. When I watch movies like Twister in America, if you watch homes get built in the States, which I've done you know why they're going to blow away. They're not designed. And even in Darwin, when Tracy went through, we went to 190 miles per second. Well, they've wound that back now. It's been too long since we've had a cyclone. Let's make it cheaper. It's like no, no, it's going to happen again. Dwayne, is that? It? Is that the answer? Is that part of the answer? That's part of it, that's mine.
Speaker 3:So when are we going to have that session? Get all of the street boards together and agree. Do we, as Gabriel mentioned, not see the fiefdoms of the master electricians, the building designers, the landscape industry, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera, to get them all together to agree? Wow, I had a job. We didn't need a big table, we didn't need a car. We didn't need, yeah, the car and you need to build a bigger house. So unless we actually say that we're going to do that, it will never happen and the problems that we've just spoken about as a group of experts continue on. Today, someone is tiling a house that had seven minutes between waterproofing codes and it has two sticks of dirt on dead serious. I've seen these with my hands on.
Speaker 2:It happens on TV, don't you know? You can do that.
Speaker 3:Yeah, of course, block that, Geller.
Speaker 4:What do you think the answer is? Well, there's lots of answers, but I look at it and go we're still five penal colonies all fighting against each other. So that's one hurdle to get over. Is getting up to that level, that echelon of being able to actually have an agreement amongst whoever. The other one is and we haven't talked about is vested interests.
Speaker 4:So Gabe talked about MBA and HIA and those other professional, the big volume builders that are actually professional lobbyists that can influence decisions so that they get what they want. And then that trickles down to the point where it creates apathy in a lot of the trades because they're doing shit work for shit money and that's life. Well, they're told. They're told what to do. Yeah, so there's a couple of hurdles to get over. Yeah, so there's a couple of hurdles to get over. And then after that, dwayne bangs on about in a nice way about education. And that's the key, and Gabriel said it if you don't know what you don't know, you've got to plug education in there in whatever form that takes, multiple forms, and try and make that work.
Speaker 3:Yeah, Tim Law speaks about this. And when I first came to northern Tasmania, I went and visited a building site and a prominent builder there is still going, his company's still going, nice bloke, very genuine and down-to-earth fella. And I got to the building site and there was a bloke concreting the culvert with the driveway and I said, g'day mate, do you know where such and such is? That's me. And I'm like wow, you're really hands-on, aren't you? He said yeah, yeah. He said look, can you come back in 20 minutes? The building inspector's coming. And I said, oh, can I watch what he does or she does? And he went, yeah, yeah, um, sorry, the building inspector from Launceston City Council was advising the builder to fix the trench footings and how this needed to be that and and there wasn't enough, cross ties here in the rebar from one corner to the next corner in the trench footing needed to be fixed. And I'm like what a bloody good industry. This is how conciliatory, gabriel. I wonder when the last time the launceston city council building surveyor offered advice to a builder prior to the concrete going in, what about 100 years ago, you know? So, so that conciliatory spirit, all you would have to not only get the parties to the table, but they would have to be willing to be aiming for the best outcome for both the consumer and the industry and their members.
Speaker 3:And I can't criticise HI and MBA because I still work for a number of their clients and their members and indeed was their salesperson for quite some time in three states of Australia, and I admire it. As Brian Walsh said, the CEO of Master Builders Victoria. To me, johnny, we'd rather get him in early and hang on to him and teach him than let him just be cowboys out there without a membership. And I'm like good point, Brian Kyle, you're the builder amongst us. I know we've given you more time to think, because, being a builder, you do like to think. What do you reckon?
Speaker 6:the answer is I don't think it's hard at all. I think one, everything starts with money. If you teach people to make money, they're going to have the profitability to do a better job. And the second one comes down to quality. If you put the hurdles in place to keep people on the right path and you don't give them a scapegoat or a place to escape, there's nowhere to hide in construction. That's nowhere to hide in construction. That's going to fix the problems we've got with the industry. So money and quality, and yeah, we can't just let people run amok Like everything has got to be measured, everything has got to be ticked off and that's going to get rid of the people that aren't doing it properly.
Speaker 3:Jeez, dovetailing that in the government is, I think, the biggest issue you know, because how does the government legislate that every tiling job is done properly? On?
Speaker 6:two coats of waterproof from the same family. It's not hard. It's same as like when you build a house you get a frame inspection, like, let's say, instead of having three mandatory inspections, you've got to have 12, and the people doing those inspections are actually hard. It's not like oh we know you do good work, we'll just tick you off and go and do it like, and you see that yeah you do um, and then the financial thing is all right.
Speaker 6:If you're going to sign a contract, provide a statement to show that your business is making profit. Like actually have to prove it because you're trading insolvency and you're taking on more jobs it's going to? How are you allowed to do that like it's just well, consumer law or?
Speaker 3:something? The headlines in the last few years. What did we say If we only have to eat one billionaire to make the others pay attention? And it's the same with builders. Nobody wants a scapegoat, nobody wants to be the bellwether of pain, but I'm sure if we looked amongst the six of us and thought what's the dodgiest builder we know? Does he or she Just one?
Speaker 6:yeah, you know why they're dodgy because it's easy to do. You could take 10 years to become a doctor. Why don't you make it harder to get a builder's licence and then, when you do get it, be stricter? It's like driving a car If you go over the limit by a certain amount, you lose your licence. You can't drive for 12 months.
Speaker 2:There's a lot of incredible builders and tradies out there, but it all falls over because they don't know how to run a business, they don't know the numbers and they start cutting corners and they start just. Everything turns to shit. They lose their passion, they get the shits of the industry and Do you think, government legislation? Before you know it, they're doing a shit job.
Speaker 3:Do you think that government legislation and regulation will make any difference to that being such an inherent human? Oh jeez, I made a mistake. How can I cover that up? You know?
Speaker 2:I actually think the root of all this is money. Like, let's face it, everything comes back to money and the government is constantly focusing on. We just keep getting it every single day. You hear it everywhere like it's expensive to build, it's costly to build, like building's expensive. No one's talking about people's expectations. So building actually isn't expensive.
Speaker 2:If you don't want to keep up with the Joneses and have all this perception that everyone else down the road's got this, I need that increase to cover all the rectification of the dodgy work. All the like every everyone is paying for all this stuff we're talking about. At the end of the day, like everyone does it, like everything costs a dollar amount. So if we're all doing, if there's all these builders out there, clients aren't getting what they're wanting. There's builders going broke, traders going broke. There's other people having to come in. There's all these builders out there. Clients aren't getting what they're wanting. There's builders going broke, traders going broke. There's other people having to come in. There's insurances that have to take over and fix things. I guarantee you that dollar amount would far outweigh the cost of implementing all this stuff we're talking about.
Speaker 3:You're just doing it properly.
Speaker 2:I don't know what you guys think.
Speaker 3:I don't know what the insurance claims and payment on dodgy homes and construction projects was last year, but I think it was HIO who said that 80% of Australian building fails are from inadequate waterproofing and it's in the tens and millions and hundreds of millions to rectify and fix the work. We used to have a guy that used to come and do those sessions on waterproofing just as a community service and he had all the photos One little pinhole under your bath and she was going to rot your stud work out $38,000. So for the sake of a $2,000, waterproofing done properly.
Speaker 6:That's the thing. They've got the evidence, so why haven't they put anything in place?
Speaker 3:Money. It'd be money again. Frank. It's over. Now it's Frank's turn. What's the answer?
Speaker 5:The 2016 legislation in Tasmania and we said you and I were on that, one of those forums and we said mandatory waterproofing inspections. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And everyone else has said the same thing yeah, great, didn't happen.
Speaker 6:Post-roof inspections, like make sure there's no mild grow on the roof 12 months after you build the home.
Speaker 5:Just all that. So I agree with what everyone's saying. 100, I believe half the problem is the self-serving nature of all these different associations, you know, and the governments, you know, the ununited states of australia, all these different states fighting each other and they can't even come up with a simple solution, how we all can work together bloody typical. And this happens within local government, state government, federal government same shit won't change. The only way we can change, we have to change. Go the devils, yeah, jack Jamerson.
Speaker 3:I go the Jackies? The answer is no. I always say that everything is all. Solutions and change are political. In Australia this is a political football. The building industry, the vested interest, the money flow, all of that. And here we are in Tasmania. We've handed over the building industry to the churches of Australia. Much as I love the churches and the good work they do, how can you make them responsible for homelessness? And it's getting worse. You know we've got 12 politicians half-decent ones and they're voting on short-term rental, and I love short-term rental, but Hobart's lost 4,400 homes out of the marketplace.
Speaker 5:And what's their occupancy rate? The occupancy rate of these Airbnb's I'm going to get my soapbox here is upwards of 70, 80%. Yes, so you get rid of those. What do you reckon the price of the hotel rooms are going to be? There's not enough hotels because the university went and bought how many hotels turned into accommodation?
Speaker 5:So they blame all these people for being capitalists to renting out their homes, and they're doing the same to the mums and dads just renting their home long term. Because I'm one of those guys. I've invested in homes and we're getting all these people getting crucified all over australia for having rentals and we're a pack of bastards of having the price up. Yet we're actually losing money on this stuff at the moment due to the rates. I'd love to see the stats. What is the largest ownership group of rentals? I reckon it's mums and dads. Yes, if they crack the shit and I'm getting close to that with some of these rules, screw you, dudes. I'm flogging buy my house, have a home. What rentals are left? Who's going to provide the rentals? Is the government? That's called social, yeah, but that's where that homelessness is. This is one of those problems and everyone's bagging out people owning homes and, sorry, this is totally off topic no, look I can.
Speaker 2:I'll jump on this bag because it's one of those things. It's an old school tall poppy syndrome yep, thing that happens in australia, and everyone's like bagging out the the people that are working hard and doing well. But reality is that if you didn't have mom and dad, investors or developers or people doing well and buying rental properties, half of australia would be living on the street, would they?
Speaker 3:would they? The guy that built my first house in Hobart. He as a single builder who immigrated here from Poland. He built whole suburbs that were affordable housing and if you can afford to pay $600 a week rent you can sure as eggs afford a $2,000 a month home loan. That's the issue. I've got nothing against property owners, but the number one line item in the Australian budget is the tax savings for multiple property owners. Did you know that? The number one line item? So it's costing more.
Speaker 5:Because it's all become political, of course.
Speaker 6:I don't think people can afford to buy houses now, though.
Speaker 5:Because they can't get to that deposit range.
Speaker 2:No, no, no, We've gone right off topic here.
Speaker 5:Anyway, I just want to uh, just another solution from me in the building design I represent and I won't comment on the architects, they've got their own group. That's fine. But us as designers and there's tens of thousands of us around australia need to be competent at what we do and work with the builders, work with the building surveyors. There's too many guys and girls out there just drawing shit up and not checking the building codes, the Australian standards, all that. Yeah, she'll be right Arguing the toss with your certified surveyor saying why do I have to put that on my drawings? I was just talking to my mate, wayne Wilson on the way here. Same shit they're arguing why put that on my drawings Other than Tasmania? We've got for residential. We have the director's determinations. We have to provide a minimum set of documentations. Best thing that ever happened. You have to meet that, thank you, I think it's the dark scouts and it should be everywhere in Australia and it shouldn't just be for residential, it should be for every project. You have minimum documentation.
Speaker 2:Well, what's that? We don't have that.
Speaker 5:So, oh, mate, Just like a mole bro packet with a couple of no, I'm keen.
Speaker 5:It's like a Marlborough packet with a couple of no, I'm kidding, I'll show you. So what it is. The government mandated and thanks to Gabe as well because he marked up the plans that here's a set of documents for residents and it covers all different types of residences, not just doing site plan, floor plan, elevations and all you know sections, details, site drainage plans, reflected ceiling plans and then all the details you need to build that. So all the claddings have to have their specific details, all your waterproofing flashes. It's all in the National Construction Code. We're just replicating it on there. That's fine, and then Isn't it?
Speaker 2:funny, mate, when you talk about it.
Speaker 5:that should just be the standard and it's not rocket science to do if you know what you're doing.
Speaker 3:Well, not quite Haste the Australian standard on me too, doesn't it?
Speaker 5:Well, yes, but you've got to be very clear of what you put on there to make sure that it's up to date. Specific design Same with the bushfire. We put all the bushfire notes on there relevant to the attack level. This is what mandatory Now. In Tasmania, we're lucky enough, cbos did do something pretty positive. It was the condensation guidelines. Those details are on our drawings as well. You know, there is all this mandatory stuff and we've been fortunate in some ways with CBOS, other things not. I think there could be a lot of improvements, but there are some good things. But that minimum documentation standard alone for you guys to build off, what difference does that make?
Speaker 6:We need it, like our jobs, to follow the drawings.
Speaker 5:Do you remember documentations from 10 years ago? You're probably too young for that.
Speaker 2:It's another thing, but I see it at home and so that is one of our minimum standards now. So we won't do a job if it doesn't have the set of drawings that I need to build up because I can price it more accurately, I can schedule the job better. My team knows what I'm just have a detailed survey yeah, every job we do has to have a detailed what was?
Speaker 5:it, it wasn't required to have a detailed survey which is crazy so now it's the.
Speaker 5:It's a detailed survey. Pick up the neighboring properties, pick up all the invert levels, the crossovers, you name it. We actually asked for a heap more because we just like to be able to model the whole thing within the space. Helps us with planning approvals as well. Then you guys can price accurately, fall on the site. Does the driveway work? I find that's really helpful. Can you get the car in your garage without leaving the exhaust on the driveway? Just a little thing. But this happened a lot and I can show you, driving up the road, where there is an actual case where you cannot get the car into the driveway, but if we're not having these conversations and educating the consumer, because the same thing that happens, but they would know.
Speaker 5:Again, so the same thing they shouldn't have to.
Speaker 2:No but they need to because the reason I mentioned about cut and paste, gabe is.
Speaker 3:I've watched a building designer, a leading building designer cutting and pasting standards and then he saves them as templates, so the drawing might change but the standards stay there. It saves him hours. But you just said, gabriel, it can't be done like that, because each site, each project will be different.
Speaker 1:It's design specific.
Speaker 2:But clients have to know because otherwise no different to them. When it gets to our stage and they're wanting a price for building because they don't see the value in that they go and pay $1,500 and go to a draftsman.
Speaker 5:So we don't have that in Tasmania we don't have it in Tasmania. There's no such thing. Only the draftsmen work for the designers or the architects. You know they don't have a licence, they can't get a licence Right.
Speaker 1:Clients need to be educated on the value for what they're getting. They need to value their building designer, they need to value their builder, they need to value their building surveyor. Nine times out of ten, if you ask the client who their building surveyors, they'd have no idea. Yet legally, the building surveyors contract is directly with the client, not with the builder, not with the building designer, and and that's by law in tasmania. Um, so, uh, and our, our, um, professional practice says that our obligation number number one is to the community at large. Number two is the client. So, as a building surveyor.
Speaker 1:So we're not here to basically push the building designer's plans through it quickly and get permits underway. We're not here to basically give the builder an easy ride through to the end game. We're here to make sure that the building's built in accordance with the code and we're here to make sure that the client gets a reasonable product. We're not here for quality control that's, that's outside our remit. But we're also here to make sure that the community at large gets good building stock and unfortunately, some of our building surveyors don't understand that some of our. We're also here to make sure that the community at large gets good building stock and, unfortunately, some of our building surveyors don't understand that Some of our building surveyors are operating sausage factories.
Speaker 6:Do you think that the building surveyors should be there for quality control if they're warranting the work?
Speaker 1:Oh look, quality control is very a subjective issue when does that come into it?
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's a subjective issue. Quality control, I mean. Uh, some clients will expect there to be not one drip of paint off a roller anywhere on a wall. Others couldn't care less if there was a few drips and splatters of the roller. Um, I mean, I'm caught in a drama at present between the client and the builder, and the builder's done the best he can and has basically done a job that complies with the code, but this client is, I think they're overly invested in their building um and they're not being objective, and I've just got to basically go straight down the line on this one and look at both sides and if the client's got a valid issue, I'm dealing with it, but if they don't have a valid issue, I'm saying no, look, that's, that's not not something that we can enforce, and the poor old builder's tearing his hair out in some respects because it's almost like the client's going over this job every day that's an expectations is that where you?
Speaker 6:there's a guy's standards and tolerance? Is that where you're drawing?
Speaker 5:yeah, I'm using standards and tolerances as the rule, but is that an expectation by the homeowner of expecting a level that probably?
Speaker 2:exceeded what the builder expected and also budget yes, that's the most important word expectation, but there's not, and that's where this collaboration solves all these problems we're talking about, if you collaboration between builder designer surveyors.
Speaker 2:Subject yeah, everybody, yeah, it's the best job clients invest more up front and understand the power of creating a team that collaborates through the early stages, and every member of that team sets very clear expectation. The client sets an expectation of exactly what they want. The builder sets an expectation of exactly what he needs and is going to do. The designer sets an expectation of what they can get. The certifier or the surveyor sets an expectation of what needs to happen or what needs to be regulated.
Speaker 5:If everybody set clear expectations, then the job will be a success. Did we ever mention your insurances for?
Speaker 3:building surveyors and certifiers.
Speaker 6:Hey, what about?
Speaker 3:us. You guys, you played it up anyway. Why do you get paid lots of insurance if those are going up? Lots man Shit, yeah.
Speaker 5:And then they have it. What? 300% in my years? No, not 300%, probably about 150. But I take on a big responsibility too, because but not only that in the way we do it, as you mentioned, my system I pay for my engineer, I pay for my thermal assessment. I pay for these on behalf of the customer, not the customer paying for it, because I expect the level of service and timing of these guys. Yeah, I pay for these on behalf of the customer, not the customer paying for it. Yeah, because I expect a level of service and timing of these guys. Yeah, I then, under insurance, take a level of responsibility of that as well. So I'm in the firing line. So that's where my insurance has gone up, because I do that. Not everyone does that and that's a business choice, but I've found for me it works well, it's a complete package and I've just got to wear the insurance for that.
Speaker 6:And you guys are super accountable too. Like for a lot of people I've worked with, your team takes responsibility for everything.
Speaker 1:Just on the designers and responsibility, there's a very big designer in Tasmania, architect. Maybe you could say responsibility wise. As soon as they go into any arbitration or into a mediation about documentation, the statement is no, you only paid 10 grand for those plans. You don't get detail for 10 grand. Here's your 10 grand back. Sign this document and the owners stupidly take the cheque and sign the document to relieve them of moving them from liability, from enforcement. Are you serious? I'm serious. I've sat in the room as the arbitrator, the mediator of the meeting between the owner, the builder and the architect and I can't give advice. I'm just seeing their gobsmacked.
Speaker 3:Are you freaking kidding me.
Speaker 1:No, I'm seeing their gobsmacked that this happened at the table in their house.
Speaker 2:I don't know if that stands up. I don't think you can just do that. I don't think you can just give something back. Give the money back If you consume a law or something.
Speaker 1:Well, this is a legal document that they put in front of the owner at the table, and it's not the first time they've done it. I've heard that it's a regular defence that this particular company use.
Speaker 5:How does that go for your business model?
Speaker 6:What about their next house?
Speaker 3:And will that be a part of the certificate for in-workplace construction?
Speaker 1:Just on building surveying insurance. Building surveyors have to be responsible for what happened. We collectively, nationally, fucked up. We've approved three litres of petrol per square metre on multi-storey buildings in every state in the country. Three litres of petrol, that's what? Not polystyrene, yeah, compressed panel I can't think of what they call it now. If I mention the brand, they won't sponsor it.
Speaker 3:I was about to say a couple of.
Speaker 5:You might get a law case on that one.
Speaker 1:It's a bonded product with an aluminium composite cladding that is on most multi-storey buildings ACP, that's what they call it. So we were approving three litres of petrol per square metre on the sides of multi-storey buildings in Australia. The building code never allowed us to do that. It was building surveyors taking a very broad interpretation of what the building code never allowed us to do that. It was building surveyors taking a very, very broad interpretation of what the building code said that allowed this type of thing to happen. Building surveyors weren't familiar with the product. They didn't understand the product. It's again this thing about these products coming in from everywhere. You don't know where they're coming from.
Speaker 5:You don't know what they comply with Was it also the case that some of those products were replaced with inferior versions.
Speaker 1:That's right.
Speaker 5:During the construction, they were specified as one and they bought a cheaper one, which I'd love to touch later on on that side of it, where products are replaced or certain suppliers need to be licensed.
Speaker 1:But on the insurance side of it, we had to take responsibility, and we were given responsibility by our insurers because we were whacked between the bloody eyes with costs that were just insane. But we had to live with it. Now Australian Institute of Building Surveyors and some of the other associations with building surveyors have seen that we have now implemented professional standards schemes under the National Professional Standards legislation. We are audited regularly. Those of us that are members of the scheme we have put our nuts on the line to say you can come and audit us any time you like and we will prove that we're operating professionally. And for that we are now starting to see incremental decreases in our insurance costs. But it has taken five or six years to get to that stage. So we're coming back to somewhere where we can actually trade and be comfortable. But yeah, so it's a matter of putting our hands up and taking responsibility for what we did and making ourselves more accountable.
Speaker 3:Now you just mentioned that there are other associations besides just one. So how would Mr's customer know from the entire supply chain of the project, from dealing with Frank or dealing with Gabe or dealing with builder X, Y or Z, how would they know? And that cost, the cost of the bell rating, the cost of the energy efficiency, the cost of the surveying, the design, the drawing? No one's ever teased that out. I haven't seen Scotty Cam talking about that. Even grand designs don't talk about that.
Speaker 6:You should do a pre-build feasibility at the start. We did one yesterday. You should have like all right, we think it's going to cost $60,000 to get your project off the ground.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 6:And you've got all of these consultancies we're going to work with. It's a budget cost. A customer should know that information up front.
Speaker 3:Do you think it's changing, Kyle? Do you think consumers are becoming more educated?
Speaker 6:Oh, definitely Like in the last five years, like even the whole paid proposals thing and just it's definitely grown. So I whole paid proposals thing and just it's definitely grown. So I think it's on the right path. But like there should be some kind of mandatory proposal from the builder and the team to show the customer all right, what's the entire process going to look like, from pre-construction construction to post-construction maintenance and all that.
Speaker 2:Like it's got to be shown another like sorry to butt in there, but another, another. Um, I think quick fix for a lot of what we're talking about now is volume builders need to be completely separated from custom home builders, because what you have, let's face it the volume builders run the show. They spend hundreds of millions of dollars on marketing, they sit on the boards of all our associations and industry bodies and they're the ones with all the pretty billboards up and they're the ones that will say I build your home for $240,000 and the consumer doesn't know about the designer, the certifier, the engineer, like all these other things, because it's just a one-stop shop.
Speaker 5:That's what they want. Yeah, some do. A lot of people do, certainly for your first time. No even following on, because I work in that space and there are some clients. That's what I want, just deal with it.
Speaker 2:So that's. But if all volume builders were licensed and separated over here and all custom builders were licensed and separated over here and all custom builders were over here, that's fine. You're going to get the clients that want that. You're going to get the clients that want that.
Speaker 5:It would make it interesting, though, because some of the custom homes are virtually commercial builds. Virtually every commercial build is custom, so that, actually, I think you've got a good point there.
Speaker 2:I think it's a no-brainer. I can't believe like they do it with like I don't know about down here, but like up in queensland, like they have like tier one builders, tier two builders. So you got the builders that do the high rise, you got the bills that do the multi-res, but then, when it comes to the housing, we're all under. We're all in the same basket.
Speaker 5:Yep makes an interesting, an interesting point, doesn't it? Because then, competency to build a certain type of building.
Speaker 2:Well, it solves all that because you know, if you go over here, you know exactly. Again, it comes back to education. You know, if you go to a volume type builder, this is a business model. This is exactly what you get. If you come over here to a custom builder, this is a a business model. This is all the pre-construction costs. This is what's involved.
Speaker 3:These are all the other consultants that we need to talk to so those who can afford by choice and education, informed, then can make a decision I want to invest more and and go down the custom route, or I just want a cheap and cheerful, fast, easy house. I'll go with the volume builder. That's not a bad idea, julie Collins. We're all available for a conversation, but Julie needs to know this, doesn't she? If you're the housing minister now, are you going to sit there for three years and hide, duck and weave, or are you going to take this on? I mean, this is not a podcast for same same status quo. This is a podcast for change, and the minister is the one that's carrying the can. And I'm not sure how much Julie is aware of what we've just discussed.
Speaker 2:I might have to up my insurance before we release this one.
Speaker 3:I mean, the reason I was happy to do it and the reason I knew that you guys would do it was because Julie will watch this. Julie's advisor will get a copy of this from herself to say this is the reality of the situation and only the housing minister could be brave enough or bold enough. And because it is a young woman in southern Tasmania. It's not like she can duck and weave and hide now, because this has now been said and verbalised, doesn't it? It's out there.
Speaker 5:I think the other thing you're saying for custom homes. But then what about the NDIS homes?
Speaker 2:Yeah, well.
Speaker 5:Now this is a classic. Yeah, I love how your eyes dropped then.
Speaker 2:Because accessibility how many builders have jumped on that? Because I've seen an opportunity to make cash.
Speaker 5:Oh and fine, knock yourself out, but at the end of the day they're not educated in it. Yeah, exactly, and in Tasmania we're bringing in the call it the LHA Silver, the Liberal Housing Australia portion of those standards coming into every building. I believe in New South Wales it's already in there. I don't know if it came in in Queensland straightaway, but in Tasmania it's coming in October. So if us, the designers, the architects, don't document this stuff properly, people are going to trip over themselves I shouldn't use that term with the door thresholds. Yeah, that was terrible. But again, are you competent to do this? Are you competent to do commercial I? I remember the last gfc where all the commercial work dried up and then they went into housing and they were going into three percent margins and causing chaos and they didn't know how to build just standard project homes.
Speaker 2:Well, the similar thing happened at home. A couple of the big tier one builders got stuck into the multi-race.
Speaker 5:Oh, it would have been a disaster.
Speaker 2:They went from doing a lot of commercial industrial-type work, where it's very simple and easy, to all of a sudden having loads of maintenance call-outs because they didn't do things properly.
Speaker 3:Nothing worse than a suspended ceiling in your children's bedroom.
Speaker 5:So competency levels we've got to talk about that. I like the New South Wales model where they bring in each class and you have to prove competency to actually design, build in that space. In Tasmania we've got three different classes when it comes to building design and pretty well for building as well. They're not talking about competency. So for me, as a building designer, I'm like all architectural limited. I can only go up to three stories or two stories depending on your level 2,000 square meters on any class building.
Speaker 5:Now if you've never done a class two or a combination of classes and you're trying to design this stuff, who's going to help you other than your friendly building surveyor? It's a recipe for disaster. Yet there should be programs to doing, teaching how to. It starts with the designers, then to be able to pass it on to the builders and making sure that it gets through, simply, clearly and no potential problems. So why don't we have clear licensing for each class? You know I like how new south wales doing, but I think, as you said, for the project builders and the custom builders, you could quite easily call it a 1C if you wanted to. You just keep doing that and you get that competency and you go through a process.
Speaker 2:But wouldn't that make it so much easier for the consumer to know that if I choose this person, that is what they're good at. That is what I'm going to get.
Speaker 5:Rather than their marketing spiel. Yeah, like surgeons you at. That is what I'm going to get, rather than their marketing spiel.
Speaker 3:Like surgeons, you go to the right surgeon for the right. You go to the cardiologist, you go to the guy.
Speaker 5:You go to the specialist, you're a specialist builder. You work in this space, commercial builders, depending on which level of commercial they're in, because there's plenty of classes. There is getting that level of competency. That would certainly give consumers more confidence, that's if they bother to read the material. They don't even check for licensing now you can just go Google and put it in Tasmania, put a name in see if they've got a licence or not. Or you ring your friendly building surveyor, they can help you. Or council, they can help you. Consumers don't.
Speaker 1:But that's part of the failing of our regulator 100% In that we created this system. They have not once done any type of advertising campaign to the general population, explaining but that's a government policy too, did you?
Speaker 5:know that Not to do that Yep Across all their departments.
Speaker 1:they're not allowed to market. That's a fundamental failure. Yet they do with workplace standards on electrical, because you get the little brochure in your letter about how close you can be to power lines. They do it for smoke alarms through the fire service. So they're picking and choosing what they're not advertising, but they wrote the legislation. They should have an advertising campaign to the community to say if you want to build anything, you need a licensed builder. It's not rocket science is it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, go and get a licensed building designer or a building surveyor, but they don't. I mean, yeah, it's not rocket science, that's the point.
Speaker 5:Maybe we've got to do it for them.
Speaker 2:But we're too busy trying to run our own businesses, we can't run theirs as well. But at the end of the day, consumers, unless you're in the industry, consumers just do not understand it. And why would they understand it with all the stuff that we've talked about this morning?
Speaker 5:I just saw something on the block. I want that. Dwayne, can you do that for me?
Speaker 2:But it's that simple, isn't?
Speaker 4:it?
Speaker 2:Yeah, it is People just think a house is a house or a building is a building, like there's no. And yeah, like when. Like I'm just thinking about all the stuff we've talked about this morning, like there's a lot going on. How, how can we make it easier for our clients to know what they're?
Speaker 6:getting. Maybe the consumers should do a mandatory course before they select how to choose a buildercom.
Speaker 1:There you go, john. There's your next website.
Speaker 3:Yeah, no, funny enough there was an organisation called Find a Builder, who kicked huge goals and then went out and bought lavish cars.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I did. I put together a seminar called it was called Build your Knowledge Before you Build your Dreams, and it went very, very well. I actually did it at the Home Design Centre in Brisbane.
Speaker 3:Yeah, lovely people. G'day, charles and Tom, I'm sure you'll be watching. So what's the answer? Do we go back to the minister as a group with a signed letter saying here are the problems, this is the fix in your hands, jules. Do we say that I mean we can't? Just I love going to talk fest, but I do like a memorandum of understanding at the end of it and a move forward, or do we just let this podcast circulate? Do we just let this podcast circulate? Do we encourage people to send this podcast to their local council, because councils are still a big part of the shooting match too, aren't they?
Speaker 5:Not really. No, that's planning. That's a completely different beast. We're talking about building.
Speaker 3:I've got people in my area building at sea level and paying $300,000 for a block of land that's less than 800 square metres and I'm assuming that that's okay.
Speaker 5:Yeah, I don't disagree, but that planning and building two different, even though they're linked. But what we're focused on is building, and result Planning is a different beast.
Speaker 3:You don't think that impacts If we keep building further and further out in Australia?
Speaker 5:That's a totally different discussion. Management's a different, different discussion, totally different discussion.
Speaker 1:Management's a different area, but building is an art. Sorry, planning is an art, building is a science. Yeah, yeah, and the two don't mesh.
Speaker 5:No, sometimes they don't. It's contradictory. Yeah, it's like. Why am I putting it at sea level?
Speaker 1:Yeah, and that's one thing. A lot of builders don't think of themselves. They're scientists, you're a scientist I'm a scientist. We're all scientists, because building is a science.
Speaker 3:Trug and enter in Melbourne is 28km from the CBD. As you drive towards Albury-Wodonga, you leave Melbourne, you go past a petrol station. It's 80km. Bang, it's freeway all the way. Then there's a suburb that says 435 car parks, people, and the uptake was slow. Um, didn't want to live that far out of town. In lonnie, where we are now, there's there's broad acre development opportunities, not two k's from here. Yet we're still building smaller and smaller blocks at sea level. Nothing wrong with building at sea level if you're confident but that's a yeah, that's a whole other podcast.
Speaker 2:That's. That's a funding thing. Funding thing. Australia doesn't have the funds. I was told this by a large developer. I know we don't have the funds to put in the infrastructure needed to expand, so we're just condensing the population in small areas. I don't know if you've got them down here anywhere, but there's definitely suburbs up home that I believe they're creating ghettos. They're putting in these 8, 10, 12-storey buildings around major shopping centres.
Speaker 5:They have to be designed so well as a collective to function well for the next 50, 100 years. To build communities, great spaces.
Speaker 1:And that's not easy to do. No, Well, if you walk around Sydney or Melbourne and you see these 12-storey high apartment blocks and the rest and the rest, with the shops on the ground floor level, all the shops are empty. I mean people living up above, but all the shops are empty. I mean there's rubbish blowing up and down the street. It doesn't look like footpaths. But there are other areas where that works really well.
Speaker 5:Yeah, yeah, you know you've got the balance. And consumers will you know they will dictate this where they want to live. If it's a great place to live, they're going to go there. You know shops will grow. Everything will you know it will eventually happen. Docklands is an interesting case in Melbourne too, you know. I'm sure you've got that up in.
Speaker 4:Brisbane.
Speaker 5:You know it's finding these places and developers are going to develop an art on getting these wonderful build community spaces.
Speaker 3:And there is examples. We don't have to pretend again with the energy laws in Germany. We don't have to pretend or reinvent the wheel. Those existing models exist, but just not here, not today. And there are elements of it creeping in and there is a push that you, I went to juice, bach's presentation and, lonnie, the house grows the food, the whole house grows, if it's not even attached to the ground. You know what? What's new? What's what? What is the? What is the real new standard that we need as a country to allow for both broadacre to allow, for volume to allow. Obviously, those in the room are skewed towards custom luxury or custom home. Where do we go to from here, do you think, gabriel?
Speaker 1:You were talking about Julie Collins as the Federal Minister. She's herding six cats in two territories, yep. So every time there is a National Building Ministers Forum, which happens quite regularly, um, they, she's there, hurting the interests of six individual states and two territories. She needs to lead, not not necessarily be sitting there. Um, she needs to start laying some saying laying some laws not laws, but laying some rules down about. We need to harmonize. They did it with the building code back in the day, when we all had different building construction standards in each state, we created a national construction code. We can create a National Building Act. It's actually been written In 1988, it was called the Model Building Act. There was five books I'll call the rainbow books and I remember it very distinctly. It was the Model Building Act that every state could pick up and run with. No state did. They all went back to protecting their own little dung heap.
Speaker 1:From my point of view, the easy fixes are education. We've got to have proper apprenticeships, not these. Go to school at night and sit in front of a projection screen and learn how to build and get out of it and basically get the tick. I'm a product of a proper apprenticeship. I was an apprentice builder at the age of 14. So you get a fundamental understanding of construction. You don't do that and there's a lot of builders out there that I would deal with on a daily basis who really don't have the construction smarts. They're relying a lot on the sub-trades they've got working for them to do the job.
Speaker 1:The other thing is quality of designers, quality of building surveyors and the quality of the professional stream within the industry. That has to be paramount. We can't go around constantly dumbing down the professions in that space either, because that's what we've done and we've got houses sliding down hills because of it, due to lack of experience, but because the pressure was on for building suppliers to be put into practice. Building suppliers with less than enough exposure, training and mentoring are put in positions where they just don't know how to handle when it all goes pear-shaped.
Speaker 1:The last thing for me as an enforcement model, I love what New South Wales is doing. I was initially critical of it being that um when I first was first started to hear what was happening. But their building commissioner and the, the authority that he's got to turn up and issue a builder with an order to fix and you will fix now is great. I mean that that that gives the building surveyors Building surveyors have no legislative backup. We can issue an order until the cows come home. The builder can turn around and give us the forks if he likes.
Speaker 5:You've got no teeth.
Speaker 1:We've got no teeth and we've got nowhere to go, we just do that and then just push the file over to the side and the builder just does what he likes. So the enforcement from that point of view is just push the file over to the side and the builder just does what he likes. So the enforcement from that point of view is paramount. The last thing we need to get the legal side of enforcement out of the courts and into a building dispute resolution model like TASCAT, where we have a building panel sitting there with teeth that can issue directions to the builder to fix. You screwed this up, you fix it, it's that simple.
Speaker 4:It's that simple. Queensland's got that though. Queensland has QCAT, I think it's called. They go and fix problems and then issue the bill to the builder if he's not going to do it.
Speaker 1:That's right. If the builder doesn't want to do it, Queensland will go and employ another builder to fix it and send him the bill and he's got to pay. I like that model.
Speaker 5:But what's your experience from that, how you've perceived it?
Speaker 2:Well, I've never had anything to do with it. Touch wood.
Speaker 5:But you would have heard stories or know of.
Speaker 2:The exact same situation that we're talking about now happens from our industry body. So if anyone goes back through my socials, we've done a few over the years. But probably six months ago we got asked to quote to finish a project from a builder that had gone broke. So in Queensland, as part of the insurance scheme they will get I'm not going to name the licensing body, but they will get their own builders in to quote on the work and then the client can also get other builders to price the work. And so the client got us in to price the work and we basically the house was at lock up or sheeted internally. It was ready to start fitting off inside. I think the original contract price was 730 000 something like that our price to finish and rectify the job.
Speaker 2:Um, I think it was about 620. So, and and so I I spent hours at the house. The clients paid us our process, so we went there. I took one of my team there. We did takeoffs of all the materials left to finish the house. We contacted a lot of the trades that all the decent ones, the plumber and sparky and a few others.
Speaker 2:The house was shocking. But the cladding had been nailed on. None of the cladding was installed as per manufacturer's specifications. There was gaps in it. It was unbelievable. If you go back and see the videos on my social, you'll know what I'm talking about. But basically the building body sent their own builders in there and the builder that ended up getting the job to repair the work was 200 thousand dollars cheaper than us, my, my job, my quote included 180 thousand dollars of rectification work. We basically strip all the cladding off the home, um, and yet the license the builder that the licensing body body gave the go-ahead to finish the project did not include to pull the cladding off and re-clad the house. So that alone was a 70, 80-odd thousand exercise.
Speaker 5:So that's really odd to me, because were they this other builder? Were they insurance builders? You know, know that the specialized group that just do insurance work were they that type of?
Speaker 2:no, they would. Well, I don't know, they're just a builder, that was because the experience I've had here with insurance books.
Speaker 5:They're a different class of builder. At the end of the day they under the insurance company, they got a warranty there. They worked for life. Like their warranty is longer than yours. It's really crazy what they've got to do and it's that's why it's really expensive to do this client was devastated, absolutely devastated.
Speaker 2:You could they hadn't used the correct fixings like you, could walk around and literally start wobbling the bottom of the cladding and, like 30 seconds later the sheet was falling off the wall.
Speaker 5:But the process has failed on that which is a real shame, is it? But I believe I still believe in the idea of that process, so I think that it's got a lot of validity in that yeah, we'll see that.
Speaker 2:That's a well. That's probably slightly different than cat. Like that, the builder gone broke, so qcat really only works when the build is still trading is that through that dumb ass insurance that you got to use whichass insurance? We've got plenty of dumbass insurances.
Speaker 5:The home warranty Dumbass insurance.
Speaker 2:So that was through the home warranty.
Speaker 5:Yeah, so they were going for the cheapest price because it's insurance.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and so here in Queensland, what a lot of people don't realise. So our insurance scheme goes up on its percentage of the total build cost. So you keep paying more insurance, the higher dollar value of the job, and yet the maximum payout is $200,000. That's money for jam, isn't it?
Speaker 5:It's ridiculous, mate $200,000 wouldn't even cover the windows, would it On a big end house would?
Speaker 2:it. So that post. So I do a regular gig with ABC Radio Brisbane Saturday mornings and that post she called me up and said, like come in and do a story on this, and so they got in touch with the manager of our licensing body and all that sort of stuff and it didn't go anywhere. But it's a shame.
Speaker 5:But it doesn't. No-one wants to do anything.
Speaker 3:Well, that's the purpose of the podcast. Otherwise we're sitting around sucking our thumbs and rabbiting on about the many war stories. We know of the failings in the industries.
Speaker 1:But unless someone says let's fix it.
Speaker 3:We're just going to be sitting here another three years and, I think, Julie Collins being in the Labor Party and having the least experience of any housing minister in Australia's history. And you mentioned it, Gabe. If the state housing ministers are getting together, what percentage of them have any idea about what we're talking about? I would put it to be less than 2%. Yeah, 0%.
Speaker 2:I want to get in front of them. I'm quite happy to get in front of them and have a conversation. Well, the good news is you have.
Speaker 3:You've filmed a podcast and there's no backing away. I mean, we've named a number of industry bodies, we've talked about what a facet is with the insurance schemes, we've talked about educating customers, and I'm just wrapping it up here because Shay's looking at me going. It's been an hour and 20 minutes and the viewers and the listeners are falling asleep.
Speaker 2:They want to be falling asleep with this guy?
Speaker 3:Yeah, but you're right and your viewers and listeners should also dial in. They should also lean into this podcast and pass comment about their experiences so that none of us change. I use what's called evidence-based selling. Show me the evidence. We agree it needs fixing. What's the process look like? And heaven forbid that Wayne, gabriel, kyle and Frank could actually fix this. It just takes a one-day round table to say what, if? Where is the magic golden wand to protect the building industry? Split up volume builders, reassess all the class one, two, three. Are we okay with Bell? Are we okay with design standards minimum? And you know it's in Gabriel's head, it's in Frank's head. If we start right as an industry, with design, construction paperwork and making sure it works, then blokes like Kyle will become more common, not less common, and people hiding behind failed insurance schemes are going broke. The fact that the bankruptcies have just gone through the roof proves that this conversation needed to happen and the answer is known.
Speaker 2:Just one last thing that I'd like to throw out there. I think architects do this very well. There needs to be a minimum period of time that every whatever apprentice, trainee, cadet has to spend with a licensed person before they can go out on their own Builders, especially Because I've lost heaps over the years. Apprentices that finish their time within three months, they're out subcontracting. Within two years they're a builder.
Speaker 3:SJB Constructions. Let me guess your name is Simon James Brown. Yes, you need some marketing advice too, kid.
Speaker 2:Look, I get it. I was the same. I wanted to get my builder's license as soon as I possibly could, but that's where most of my problems started, because I did not have the experience or the knowledge to be doing the work that I was doing.
Speaker 5:I just want to expand what you said. You said the architects do that well and they do a lot of things really well. But I understand you can apply for your license after two years yep, same as me.
Speaker 6:I was, yeah, 23 and a half, I half, when I got my building licence.
Speaker 5:So in Tasmania it's about two years. You've got to show a level of competence to get your licence.
Speaker 6:You don't show any competency, you just apply and get it.
Speaker 5:You apply but you've got to show projects you've worked on. I'm sorry, that's bullshit. Two years is not enough to do what we do and where you can work on any class of building, yet you only have to throw in Tasmania you have to show three projects, but there's 10 classes plus the subclasses underneath. So how do you show competency on that?
Speaker 2:I'm sorry, minimum five to seven I would have thought what does it as an architect, for do they have to do four years Four?
Speaker 5:to five years at uni and then two years working in practice Building designers two to three years, subject to what level they go to, but then two years practice. You can apply for your licence in Tasmania. I still believe you've got to get your licence based on your class and so competency. The problem is in Tasmania.
Speaker 1:The people assessing and issuing the licences don't understand the accreditation. This is a bureaucrat, they don't even understand the classes.
Speaker 4:They don't understand the classes.
Speaker 2:It's actually something that I'm quite disgusted in myself because I've signed off. I've had past apprentices come to me and say hey, Dwayne, can you sign my experiences off? And I've done it. There is no way in the world I would do that anymore, but just something as simple as that. I know there's going to be guys out there that are going to be pissed off because their whole dream is to become a builder, but I'm actually saving you a shitload of heartache and issues because you need experience.
Speaker 5:So we need to show competency in everything we do. So we need to show competency in everything we do, and if you don't have competency in it yet, who are you going to work under to learn and get that?
Speaker 1:And from my point of view, competency is not just in drawing a set of DTS plans, but competency is in doing performance. Yes, because more and more of the construction industry is going down the performance path and we are getting more and more performance designs on our desks, and we are spending a lot of time trying to educate architects and building designers on what they need to provide for performance.
Speaker 5:I totally agree. But it's not just the building you're doing. You're working with the engineers yeah, the surveyors, the building surveyors, the codes, australian standards, um, and every other consultant that you have to get in for that house. Yeah, don't just rely on what they say is true, you know so. There's a lot of knowledge you're going to be able to pass on, so then you guys can just get in and do it as per documents. Hey, I found a problem. Can we talk about this? Let's solve this? Yep, no worries, have to do an amendment. Go back to you. Does this, you know? Does that work? No, you're gonna have to go. Performance solution no worries, we'll put a performance solution together bang.
Speaker 5:Everyone's communicating and it's done right variation copy to the bank.
Speaker 1:Just just just know it frank the builder asking if he finds a problem. Don't try and cover it up. And this is the problem we have out there in the industry. Tassie builders find a problem but they just get the trail and trail over the top of it. I want to know about it. If there's a problem there, ring me. I want to know about it. I want to get it fixed now, because we're only going to have to fix it and timing.
Speaker 5:For you guys, time is money. You know the architect or the designer and wherever subconsultants bang, let's get in, sort it. Hey, Gabe, we've got this problem. We've found this, this is the solution. Yeah, supply this, do this, bang, paperwork done.
Speaker 2:Everyone hates paperwork. That's what you get when you have have a good team that collaborates right from the very beginning, so we better start wrapping this one up. What's um? I?
Speaker 5:thought this was a whole day job. The way we're going. Where's lunch?
Speaker 2:I think there's been incredible value here and I definitely think we've stirred a few things up, and I think we'll get some people reaching out, um, about this one. But, um, john, how do you want to wrap it up?
Speaker 3:well, shay was just gave me the five minute one. You and I discussed the magic one golden ticket. Do we give each person one minute or so just to say, well, if you had your way, what do you think the next steps are? Wayne Gorman, gabriel first, you sure, gabriel, if we had one thing or one momentum move, what would happen from today? What do you think needs to happen?
Speaker 1:I think we need a government, we need governments and we need the departments to be humble enough to accept that the systems that they're overseeing may not be flawless, and they need to be receptive to constructive criticism and be supportive of fixing the problem. We're hitting stone walls within government and certainly within politicians. They think we did it, it's great, it's wonderful. We don't want to touch it. That's not the case, and they need to be humble enough and receptive enough to question what they've done, what's been done and whether we can do it better.
Speaker 3:Largest employer in Australia, one of the largest money spinners in Australia. The industry deserves that respect at the least. Good comment, Greg Frank.
Speaker 5:I'm going to come from the building designers architect's point of view is competency levels, education and minimum documentation standard and support to the builders and building space. That support component. Now, that could be contract administration, it could be representing the builder or the client, whatever it may be, but providing after completion building permit support as well.
Speaker 6:Wow, excellent, young Cole. Yeah, short and simple again. I think it all starts with education, and then compliance, and then just being there like governing bodies to come in and make sure that these standards are met, and then having people like us that are actually experienced in the industry sit on the boards and make the decisions, because we've actually got the experience to know what the industry needs, rather than people sitting in positions that haven't had 30 years' worth of experience calling the shots.
Speaker 3:Yeah, spot on. I just noticed both the Premier's advisers had quit in Tasmania in the last two weeks and the salary for one was $454,000. The American president doesn't get paid that much, You're up.
Speaker 1:I'm closing.
Speaker 3:Danny Orwell's. Watch out, Gabriel. Imagine if the state was partly advised by Gabriel Wayne. What would you like to wave the magic wand?
Speaker 1:over the devil, on dictatorship, here we come, we won't use Wagner.
Speaker 4:Education, I agree, but it also has to start at the top down and the bottom up. The bureaucrats need to be educated as much as the tradie at the bottom.
Speaker 3:Yeah, spot on. You're thinking that the housing minister should have actually had some experience in the building industry and he or she's team should actually know what goes together to put a house together. I mean, if you won't listen to the group of experts that are here today, you've really got your fingers in your ears going la la, la, la, la la, everything's okay. Don't talk to me. Yet every news story is the debt and disaster that's created for consumers by not advising and acting on this. Thank you, wayne Young. Dwayne, you're going to have the last word, of course.
Speaker 2:Education, mate. Seems like from this conversation today it's pretty simple Education. I like the word competency. That's come up a lot today. I think between those two things we can make a hell of a difference.
Speaker 3:Good start. Who said top down, bottom up? Kyle Wayne, yeah. So if we went that way, that the next batch of subbies and tradies and apprentices were all well-educated and that the people at the top actually knew what they were doing and what the industry was about, there's we'll meet in the middle in a few years time, when we're in a much better place the longer it takes to start the longer.
Speaker 2:That actually sounds like common sense no, that's why I'm not england.
Speaker 3:Um, thank you, gentlemen, for coming along today. No doubt we'll be doing this again in hobart in a year's time with different people, but you have indeed summarized what's wrong and what the answer is. So thank you for your efforts and, dwayne, over to you to deliver the call to action yeah, well, look, thanks everyone for being here today.
Speaker 2:Like it's been a great conversation. I've enjoyed it. I look, I encourage anybody that's listening to this or watching this to join the conversation. Reach out to any member that's sitting here today. Messages, comment, like whatever you want to do, but the more people that can get in front of this conversation, the better our industry is going to be, the better. I think there's a lot of things that will come from this Our industry will be better, mental health will be better, suicides in our industry will be less. Clients will actually get what they deserve to get and what they should be getting, so it's a win-win for everyone. The economy booms. So, yeah, look, thanks very much for joining us. Really appreciate it. And, yeah, for everyone at home listening and watching, like, subscribe, all those types of things and we'll continue to make this australia's number one construction podcast. Are you ready to build smarter?
Speaker 5:live better and enjoy life, then head over to live like buildcom forward slash elevate to get started.
Speaker 2:Everything discussed during the Level Up podcast with me, Dwayne Pearce, is based solely on my own personal experiences and those experiences of my guests. The information, opinions and recommendations presented in this podcast are for general information only, and any reliance on the information provided in this podcast is done at your own risk. We recommend that you obtain your own professional advice in respect to the topics discussed during this podcast.