Level Up with Duayne Pearce
How to be a Modern Craftsmen: The Forgotten Tricks of the Trade
Join the insightful dialogue with my colleague Craig Stuart from Stuart Homes & Renovations as we dissect the fabric of the building trade. Together, we unravel not just the craftsmanship and quality that define our work but also the shifting attitudes toward work ethic and education among the youth of our industry. We'll take you on a journey from the nostalgia of traditional carpentry skills to the modern-day challenges of instilling discipline and fostering a workforce that values precision and accountability.
As we reflect on our experiences, you'll hear firsthand about the lost art of carpentry techniques and the meticulous dedication required in framing that goes unnoticed yet is vital for structures to stand the test of time. We shed light on the critical importance of proper preparation in construction, from brickwork to cladding, sharing tales of lost techniques and the pride in passing down these enduring methods to our teams. Our passion for mentorship and the builder's responsibility in crafting not only buildings but skilled tradespeople is palpable in every chapter of our conversation.
The heart of our discussion lies in the strategies for building a resilient team culture within the trades. We highlight the importance of investing in team development through educational sessions, open communication, and creating an environment where questions and innovation are the cornerstones of progress. As we aspire to achieve a standard of excellence in the industry, we invite you to join our mission, encouraging all to embrace the values of craftsmanship, thoroughness, and continuous learning in their work. Let's inspire and nurture the next generation together.
We're on a mission to elevate the professionalism of the residential construction industry, and help everyone enjoy building and renovating homes.
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Join the insightful dialogue with my colleague Craig Stuart from Stuart Homes & Renovations as we dissect the fabric of the building trade. Together, we unravel not just the craftsmanship and quality that define our work but also the shifting attitudes toward work ethic and education among the youth of our industry. We'll take you on a journey from the nostalgia of traditional carpentry skills to the modern-day challenges of instilling discipline and fostering a workforce that values precision and accountability.
As we reflect on our experiences, you'll hear firsthand about the lost art of carpentry techniques and the meticulous dedication required in framing that goes unnoticed yet is vital for structures to stand the test of time. We shed light on the critical importance of proper preparation in construction, from brickwork to cladding, sharing tales of lost techniques and the pride in passing down these enduring methods to our teams. Our passion for mentorship and the builder's responsibility in crafting not only buildings but skilled tradespeople is palpable in every chapter of our conversation.
The heart of our discussion lies in the strategies for building a resilient team culture within the trades. We highlight the importance of investing in team development through educational sessions, open communication, and creating an environment where questions and innovation are the cornerstones of progress. As we aspire to achieve a standard of excellence in the industry, we invite you to join our mission, encouraging all to embrace the values of craftsmanship, thoroughness, and continuous learning in their work. Let's inspire and nurture the next generation together.
We're on a mission to elevate the professionalism of the residential construction industry, and help everyone enjoy building and renovating homes.
Easy to use Quoting software for Builders. Produce professional and accurate proposals. Quickly and accurately measure and markup plans in minutes. Win more jobs and track costs. 21 Day Free Trial.
Living PurposedWe want to gather with a purposeful intention to explore the world around us. ...
Listen on: Apple Podcasts Spotify
check out more podcasts here...
https://levelupwithduaynepearce.buzzsprout.com
And once I used to think that a good product was having really nice mitre joins and that sort of thing. But now I've learnt too that it's the experience for the client is there, but also what they don't see. It's probably more important sometimes than what they do see. Obviously, you know a good fix out, good paint job, good architraves, that sort of stuff. But as we go back before, the frames Good straight frames nailed together well, all those sort of things is what make the bones of the building.
Speaker 2:G'day guys. Welcome back to another episode of Level Up. We are back in the shed this afternoon for another cracking episode of Level Up. Actually got an old timer with us today. He's been on a couple of times, so he knows all about it. But um, welcome back, craig stewart from stewart homes renovations. How are you, mate? I'm well, mate. Thanks for having us. So, uh, craig and I have chats um every now and then to solve the world's problems, and um, craig's also a member of our live like build community. Um, looking forward to next weekend, mate.
Speaker 2:That's going to be actually mate yeah, live, like builds having a live event, so that's going to be absolutely off the charts. But yeah, basically today we're just going to have a chat about the industry and young people and knowledge.
Speaker 2:Education and knowledge, I think mate yeah, I'm looking forward to this because I think it's a topic I could talk all day about, I agree.
Speaker 2:And yeah, say about um, I agree, and yeah, I think there's lots like we've actually, over the last sort of while, we've had a couple of young guys come on and sort of voice their opinion and stuff, that how they've sort of found the industry and um, some issues they've had during their apprenticeship and that type of thing.
Speaker 2:So I think it's a topic that, um, I don't know, doesn't get talked about enough. Um, I also think that there's probably a lot of people, that a lot of younger people, that get into our industry with, um, maybe different expectations of what they're getting themselves into, what a real carpenter is well, not just like we were talking about before, like not just carpentry like across the board. Yep, I think there's lots of people that get into the industry because they just see the dollar signs. There's lots of reasons, but I also think that the government tends to throw a lot of incentives around and definitely in the over the years has flooded our industry with people which have now ended up untrained or not not skilled enough in what they do and has led to like us having, I believe having a lot of trades that really aren't qualified enough to be doing the work they're doing yeah, I gotta agree with that.
Speaker 1:I think the skill set is a big one. Is, um, the young apprentices coming through, or the young tradies think that they've got enough knowledge? Um, some of that could be attitude. Somebody's just they haven't been pointed in the right direction. So I find that a lot is that when some of those guys come to us and we ask them to do things, um, they just haven't been told or taught the correct way of doing stuff, so they're wanting to shortcut things, and I think that comes back to probably a little bit of their passion, or whether it's just about a slap-happy project and putting it together. Yeah.
Speaker 2:I think, like, again, I think it's definitely something I could talk about all day, but it's like everything in this world now wants to be here straight away, yep, and they don't want to. They think that everyone thinks they're good enough to be paid more or or have a different role or a different position and, um, like I don't know if it's just the way the world's gone. I don't know, I can't explain it. But like I know, like I'm not that old, like 43, I I was brought up like everyone in my family, um, a lot of them are in trades. They all work hard.
Speaker 2:Like I got kicked up the ass, like I was always taught to work hard. Like I was mowing lawns 12 years old. Like I think I had my first business when I was 13. But like I just knew that, well, I was told I had to work hard to get somewhere. Yeah, and it's sort of true to a certain extent. But now I know it's not just working hard, it's also working smarter. But like you had to earn, like you had to earn your way and you're true, and I don't, I don't know. I just don't see that in a lot of young people anymore. Like they just think that they start here. Well, it's not just young people, it's right through, it's every everyone. But like, you can just start here, get to here and you're you can earn a fortune. Like, even though you don't have anywhere near the skills that you should have yeah, but does that come back to work ethic as well?
Speaker 1:I think it does, you know, yeah, I think I think that's instilled in you more. Um, definitely, when I was younger I was mowing lawns like my dad would come and inspect the lawn. Yeah, before I went and told the people I was going to get paid for it or yeah, or.
Speaker 2:If it wasn't your, if it wasn't your old man, it was the people you're mowing the lawn for yeah that's exactly right.
Speaker 1:So that work ethic is instilled in you, I think, which is probably lost today a little bit. Um, yeah, I see that a lot that you know the care factor, I suppose, the passion I said before, the care factor just doesn't seem to be there. So people just want to rock up, smash it together, leave, ask for the, the big bucks, but they're missing all the in-between, all the important parts of the quality of the job, the technique of the job, just the skill set of the job, as we talked about before. Tools Tools to me are a big thing, what you've got, how you use them, handsaws, blokes, don't even know what a handsaw is these days.
Speaker 2:Well, again, it ties into what I'm saying. Like we've just, we're living in such a fast-paced world that people aren't getting taught properly. They don't have enough passion. Their parents probably both work, so they're probably not getting enough time around their family. Um, they're not getting that worth instilled in them. Yeah, and then the tool thing is the same. Like we're just like. It shits me to tears. Like it's a throwaway society. So the like reality is it's cheaper to just keep buying a six dollar hand saw than it is to actually like. I don't. I honestly couldn't even tell you, because I don't go to the tool shop much anymore. Can you actually still buy a good old saw that you can sharpen?
Speaker 1:Well, I'm not sure because it's a long time since I've seen them. Yeah, but I actually bought all my good saws from the markets, yeah, and then had them all cleaned. I got some up in the back of the shed mate, had them cleaned and then had them resharpened. But I also had some recut so I changed the teeth, like the points in them, yeah, so I had them change to suit what I wanted.
Speaker 2:So you, might you could talk about this to the young some young people now they would not have a clue what you're talking about. No, like I remember um doing well, even before I did my time. So I started at 15 years old, um in a trust and frame factory. Yep, I started on the cutting floor of the trust factory and, um, again, it was just like I. I think it makes it so hard for me and what frustrates me so much, seeing people that I employ now when they don't do things that I know, like I've been there and done it and like when I was actually only talking to my wife about this the other day because we've got some new people at the moment, mate, I was 15 and admittedly I was, I don't know, I was playing sport and doing things. Well, not really playing sport, but I was doing things to be fit. Yep, and, mate, I was 15, I just one of my jobs was if, um, so the guy in the yard that was stacking the timber to come into the cutting shed that we would cut and lay out in an order where that then the fabric haze would then lay down on tables and press the trusses together, if this guy in the yard stacking it.
Speaker 2:Um, so part of the stacking job because I did it for a little while was you. You had to, like, quickly view the timber before you stacked it, make sure it didn't have cracks in it and it was all structurally sound before it got to the cutting shed. And then, when you're in a cutting shed, while you're cutting it, you also had to check it and make sure it was good. And so if there's the wrong pieces of timber, put it in. Or you were cutting it and you felt there's something wrong with it. You had to run out in the yard and grab your own timber.
Speaker 2:Yep, and make multiple times a day, like 15. I would be out in the timber yard, grabbing four, six meter, 90 by 35s, rolling them and throwing them up onto my shoulder and walking them 400 meters back to the cutting shed, throwing them on the saw bench, cutting them and and like I see people on young guys on site these days and they're fucking carrying one, sometimes two lengths of timber at a time yeah, 40 meters and well, not even that like 10 meters from the stack to the saw bench, yep. So look, I do struggle. This is something I struggle with because I just think all the time like fuck me like I've been there and done it. Why is it so hard for you?
Speaker 1:yeah, I'll have the same thing. But just going back there for a sec, you're saying you're picking up the four lengths of timber, picking them up and rolling them onto your shoulder. No one knows that anymore, like the guys when they were working with us. And I tell them that they're like no, I don't do all that. They try and pick it up and struggle with it, but that simple technique of being together if it's, you know, a big beam or something, picking up, flicking and rolling it and rolling it back down makes it so much easier. Yeah, but these are the little techniques that are being lost. So you're becoming inefficient, you're not being good for your body and all those sort of things, and it's something that's simple like that. And it frustrates me too, because I see those things the way we were taught. There's a system and a process and a technique and it works for a reason, yeah, but you just see that's being lost.
Speaker 2:Yeah well, mate four wasn't even busting your balls, like when the pressure was on and like there was months at that trust factory where it was. So I can't even that was, uh, what are we in now? So that was like 1998 99. We must have been going through some sort of boom or something because, like they got a period where, um, again, I'm 15, yeah, so the other part of this is and I'm not trying to spook or anything, but I just, like you said before, it's got to be instilled in you like so the trust factory was at brenda and we lived at marama downs. I couldn't tell you off the top of my head how many kilometers it was, but it was at the time of the morning that I started.
Speaker 2:It was probably a 20 minute drive yeah I used to ride my bmasionally my old man would take me.
Speaker 2:So if I went with my old man I'd have to be up at 4 o'clock because he owned a paint shop and I'd have to go with him, help him get the signs out, set up the paint shop, and then I'd sort of sit around for half an hour and then I'd ride my pushy from his paint shop to the truss place.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and yeah, I'd sleep in and he, there was no waiting for me or whatever, like if you slept in you had to find your own way to work. So, fuck, I'd be belt my ass off on the push bike trying to get to work on time. And and then, yeah, we went through this period where it was uh, I can't even remember like. So I think the standard starting um was 6 30 and standard knockoff, I think, was 3 30. But we went through this period where they would start another shift and like so at 3 30, when the clock went and we used to like, we had tickets, we had to like clock in and clock out the um, the big siren would go off and all that sort of shit, but, um, they would start another shift and we would work through.
Speaker 2:I think it was till like 8 or 8 30 and same deal. Like most nights I'd have to ride home and I couldn't see too many young people doing that sort of stuff now. But going back to what we're talking about with the tools, like I, I saw it there. So like there was people that used to come into the trust factory and like we would have some down time because they'd take all the blades off and we'd sharpen them. Yeah, so I learned a little bit about sharpening and then when I started my time, like my bosses had um, I can't remember what we like we had, uh, leather cases. I've still actually got one sitting on the shelf there.
Speaker 2:We had a big leather case for your power saw blades. We had a big leather case for our drop saw blades. We had hand saw cases. We had chisel rolls and we had sharpening stones and part of the job was always making sure things were sharp and like the guy would come in I think his name was kevi from sharpen it, the old guy and yeah, he would come up. He'd basically travel around job sites. You'd call him up, you'd book him in, he'd come to your job site, you'd give him all your blunt gear and he'd read to that and sharpen and stuff. But but that stuff just doesn't happen anymore.
Speaker 1:We're one of those guys years ago in calandra, when I was down there, yeah, and he would turn up on the job site and you just take your tools, put them out for him. You'd sharpen them all, yeah, but I've always done all my own chisels and I've taught all my guys how to sharpen chisels yeah but I got a swing out grinder in the back of my trailer. It's all set up. Yeah, oil stones and that sort of stuff, water stones yeah, we've got all that.
Speaker 2:The boys don't use mine anymore. A couple of my guys have got their own. But like, even that sort of thing, like nothing shoots me more when you have carpenters doing a fit out and you walk in and they're trying to chisel a striker plate in and they're using a half blunt chisel and they wonder why it's chipping the jam and blowing out, like it goes back to the old saying you're only as good as your tools.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you shouldn't blame your tools, but you're only as good as your tools yeah and I've I've noticed over the years too.
Speaker 1:If you employ a new bloke and he turns up, look at his toolbox. Yeah, See what it looks like. Yeah, If everything's all just higgledy-piggledy, that's the type of work you're going to get. If he takes some pride and he's got it set out a little bit and things have got their right place, you know've got all mine in rolls and that sort of stuff and all. I've got two uh handsaw bags on top of my trailer. That's got all my handsaws in it I think it's really important.
Speaker 2:But even like we had to, we were constantly changing blades. But if you were framing, you had a big chunky tooth blade and you had a framing blade, yep, and then. So there was plenty of situations where you would be maybe you're going back to a frame to do windows and, um, so feet. So, like you would, we would have to start the day with our chunky blade and we'd finish like we'd install the bath and we'd still be putting some noggs in walls and stuff. And then, once we got around to doing the so feets, like we would do all the framing with the chunky blade, but my blade, my boss would make us change the blade just to do the safite beating. We would swap the blade to a fine tooth blade, definitely, and same thing.
Speaker 2:Like then, when you, every time you start to fit out, every single time, like if you started to fit out and the boss didn't see you in the morning changing the blade and making sure you had the fit out blade on. Holy shit, did I get my ass kicked? Yeah, but like, where's all this gone? Like is I guess it's us up? Like I guess we're employers. But we've got to pass this knowledge on, don't we?
Speaker 1:yeah, 100. But I think the the volume builder scenario of the speed. You know, I've got a couple of guys that um work with us now. That that's where they started their time and they're really grateful for the knowledge that I try to give them and teach them and tell them why we do stuff. But the other day they were doing some stuff and I said you better change that blade. And they said why? I said because all your moldings are starting to fair up. I'll get a couple more cuts out of it. I was like, no, just just change it, put another one in, we'll just get it sharpened. Yeah, um. But yeah, I think it comes back to us. But it also comes back to where they learned initially um, if people aren't got enough care, factor in it.
Speaker 1:But the other one I noticed too is you talk about timbers before. If the timbers weren't right for your trusses, um, I, we're doing some uh, blocking in between some bearers and joists and that sort of stuff and we're using some 140 by 30. And I went through and I face marked it and I face marked the edge. Oh, mate, yeah. And one of my guys was like what are you doing? And I'm like this is the two faces I want you to use, whereas they just pick it up and cut it and I'm like, oh, what about that mark in it? If you hadn't flipped it over, it would have been okay.
Speaker 1:Yeah, um, but just those simple things of you. Know, I think it's my responsibility to educate my guys on that sort of stuff, but also explain to them why not just tell them that's what to do, but tell them why we do it. And I think you know if you've got guys that are interested or keen to learn goes a long way, because the more I can tell them, the better they are, the more benefit they are to me, the less I have to hold their hand down the track yeah, the why is definitely a massive one.
Speaker 2:That before we jump into that, like you, yeah, while you're sitting there talking about face marking, I'm just thinking to myself, fuck me, I need to do a training session with my guys and uh, run them through that, like a couple of our more experienced guys do that. But yeah, the young guys would not have a clue about that and probably, I would assume possibly a lot of people listening to this not have a clue about that and probably I would assume, possibly a lot of people listening this podcast don't know about that. Like again, everything. So when we um like we got a lot done when I was an apprentice, like my boss, um aldez was like at the time I I actually like, so I actually got to a point where I just got such bad depression and desire and anxiety that I finished with him. Yeah, because I just I was worked like a dog every single day and I I was yelled at, I was like pushed, and at the time it really affected me and I just think back all the time now like I've tried to reach out to him the last few years. Actually I'm not even sure if he's still alive, but I am so grateful for how he treated me, because I just would not be the tradesman I am today or the builder I am today without him doing what he did. Yeah, and look, it wasn't that he was abusing me, it was I get it now Like I'm an employer now, like I get it. Like every second that he stood still was costing him money. That's right. So, and like one thing I just mentioned in the last couple of days to one of the young guys we're giving a trial at the moment, I said to him mate, like when I was younger, whether when I was mowing lawns, when I was starting all my little businesses, and then as I got jobs and I started my apprenticeship, and even now as an employer well, with multiple businesses that has clients, my aim was always to impress.
Speaker 2:Whatever I am, whatever I am told to do or given to do, I want the person that has engaged me to do that or told me to do that, to come back and go holy fuck, like you've done a great job and you've, you've smashed it, you've got it out quicker than I thought you would. Yeah, like I. One thing that blows my mind that I see with a lot of younger people these days is I? Just? I really struggle to figure out and I would love for someone to give me an answer. If someone's given a task, wouldn't you get the shits? If someone like myself or my lead chippy or my supervisor is constantly coming back and going what are you doing? Like, why aren't you finished yet? Like wouldn't you think you'd move a bit quicker or get a bit more motivated or ask some questions? If maybe you don't know, like I don't know what, what, what do you reckon?
Speaker 1:yeah, I agree with you there, but I think too, does it come back to how they're raised and how what's instilled in them. So, is there a priority? Is there a care factor? Like you and I were brought up that we had to get something done and have it done at a certain time, otherwise there was consequences. Well, is there still consequences today?
Speaker 2:Mate, I don't. This is I think they should bring back the cane. That's my view. Like 100%, I don't give a fuck if people agree with me or not. Like I firmly believe that there is no discipline. Like when look whether fuck if people agree with me or not. Like I firmly believe that there is no discipline. Um, like when I don't look whether you get the cane or not, but there's, there has to be discipline doesn't?
Speaker 2:there was boundaries yeah, that was the difference. Well, like you said, there's consequences. Yeah, like, whether it was your, your old, your mum or dad giving you a strut when you got home because you're home after dark, or or you got locked in your room because, I don't know, you didn't eat your veggies, like every, everything had an outcome or a consequence. And even yeah, it's cool like if you had a fight, if you didn't do your homework, like everything had a consequence well, there was boundaries and that's where there's not today.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think that's a big thing. So so the younger, younger generation coming through don't respect the boundaries. So you know the simple things that I suppose being polite, using manners, having respect, it goes a long way. So you can see the difference in the generations. Um, between myself I'm a bit older than you and then you know the 30s down to the, the late teens. You can see where it's totally different altogether. So that's sort of having those boundaries, I think, makes a a big difference there as well, understanding that there's a boundary where you're not gonna. You might be a bit rebellious, but you don't push past that. Yeah, where now they just seem to they don't care. I suppose the care factor comes back into that, but there's no boundaries like I don't know.
Speaker 2:I think there's a lot of goody two-shoes that, uh, I don't know. It's like the squeaky wheel always gets the oil mate, isn't it always so? Yep, there's a lot of goody two-shoes out there that push for these real changes and these things. And look, I'm not I'm not for smacking kids or giving people the strap or any of that sort of stuff and like I believe we're bringing our girls up really well and we set boundaries. Like there's consequences that they get their ipads taken off them for a month or they might miss out on seeing their friends on the weekend. Like it's not like I the consequences I had but there's still a boundary, there's still consequences.
Speaker 1:Yeah, they don't do something. And that's where I think you know you get these young apprentices coming through. Well, they don't understand that, so they don't. They don't see. Like you said, you know you can see with your boss why you pushed you so hard. You can see that now and you can always see it later. But the young kids coming through as apprentices, they just think it's their right, yeah, to be there, and just because they're there for 40 hours, they should be getting the big bucks.
Speaker 2:Yeah, but it flows right through, doesn't it Like? Look at all the youth crime in that. Now they just know that they're under whatever it is 17, 18, they'll just get a slap on the wrist see you later they'll do it again tomorrow night. It's hard. So like, how do you, what do you do with your team? How do you deal with this sort of stuff?
Speaker 1:So I find the more information I can give them and tell them why I want something done a certain way, I think they take it on board and appreciate that better. So just by telling them I want this or do this, but actually explaining to them why I want it done that way or why I want those amount of steps carried out, then the penny starts to drop. We recently had a job where we did this big slab and we had three options and I just asked the team where to put the mesh the bottom, the middle, the top and I had three different answers. But I asked them why they told me that. But no one could actually tell me why they told me that answer. So they just picked something.
Speaker 1:I said to one of the guys look, you've done a fair bit of steel work. Why did you decide to go with that? And he goes well, I don't know. I said but you've done a lot of steel work. He said, yeah, but I just do what I'm told. So no one had ever taken the time to explain to him why we wanted it. You know what size chairs to use or whatever. When I explained it to him, you just see the light bulb come on and he's like oh well, that makes sense.
Speaker 2:It's a two-way street man, isn't it? Like? I put a lot of time and effort into my team now and there's things that still frustrate me. But one thing I think about consciously all the time now, like, okay, well, it's fair enough that they've never been shown, or, um, I can't just blame them because they've never asked me the question. So, like, ultimately, I've got to take ownership of everything and and and not assume that they know, especially when you get new trades and things like, and make them all just point out questions or ask them, hey, like, have you, do you know such and such? Do you do you want me to talk you through how I used to do it? Like all those types of things. So it's, um, it a lot of it does come down to education doesn't it?
Speaker 1:oh, 100% education and assuming I think that's the biggest one, I think, because we know how to do it. We just assume they know how to do it. So yeah, I think that's definitely a big one. So, education maybe five or ten minutes spent talking to them, explaining to them how it should be done and why you'd like it done. Like that can save a lot of time down the track.
Speaker 2:Yeah, because I think this flows through to why there's so many issues in our industry. Now, like I know, when we go into renovations, like even some houses aren't that old, and again I I don't know, it's just me like I'm a perfectionist, I like to do, I like to overdo things, I like to make sure our clients are getting more than what they expect. But like you pull, you strip a wall in a renovation and there's a jack stud missing. Or they haven't put a jack in and they've just batten, screwed the back of it all. Yeah, like and like.
Speaker 2:I do struggle with this one because, like there should have been an engineer's inspection. So like on a frame, someone should have inspected it, yep, um, like so that person hasn't done their job correctly either. And then, like the end of the job, it's got to be certified, so like as a certifier checked things out. Like that, I think there's a lot of scenarios these days where people just again assume that someone else is going to check it and tell them whether it's right or wrong, instead of just doing their own research and making sure that what they're doing is correct.
Speaker 1:Do you reckon? Yeah, I agree with you totally. I also think it comes to a thing that I call dumbing down, where, um, people like, say, apprentices are coming through now whether they're not listening properly or they're not being taught properly, but because, uh, people are under the pump to get everything done. So, you know, might be volume builder or whatever, but subcontractor, he's got an apprentice and he realized he, short quoted, it, hasn't got the amount of time allocated, he's not getting paid enough, so he's just pushing it through with a she'll be right attitude sort of thing. So that apprentice, no matter how good he is, only knows what he knows. So he hasn't been taught that jack start had to go in, or where your rods are supposed to be and all these sort of things. So so he's just doing what he's taught. And then he goes full circle down the track when he's got someone working for him and then he has to, you know, speed things up a little bit. So he might think to just cause the bubbles between the lines you know, she'll be right, mate attitude. So you have two or three apprentices down the track and they only know what they know. So they're getting dumber, yeah, um, but also carpenters aren't doing as much in a job like your guys do.
Speaker 1:My guys do, but a lot of carpenters wouldn't even know how to set out a house. Yeah, put it. Put profiles in.
Speaker 2:um well mate, how many builders these days like? A company comes in, scrapes the grass off, does the site cut. The surveyor comes in, puts little pins in the ground and the concrete is pulled lines over the pins, set the slab up. The kippies come in and they don't even square shit up, they just follow the slab Follow the slab.
Speaker 1:We had a 45-minute talk the other day at work with a whiteboard and I was showing the guys how to put a brick base in on a slab yeah, and they and one of the guys has done a lot of new homes yeah, and he did not even know what a brick base was, how to do it, how to put a knockoff course on, and that's fine because he's never seen it. But you could tell the penny dropped when I actually started drawing it up on the whiteboard and how it all worked and I talked about the cavity between the slab and the brick, of all the rubbish falling down in there and then how it holds moisture and everything else. But if you do it the way we used to, when you put the brick base in and the concrete's hard up against the back of it and he's just like oh, wow, he's like that's unbelievable. But I know it gets down to time and money and all the waffle pods and the shutters and that sort of thing, do you think?
Speaker 2:old timers, like older than us, sit around and go fuck me. These blokes don't know what they're doing?
Speaker 2:yeah, I think they probably do like because you think about what they used to do, like everything done by hand, and like they actually used to grade their timber themselves and all that type of thing. Like, yeah, do you think they look at us and go, oh shit, their shit just all turns up and in a pack and they just nail it all together well, they probably do, but I think there's been a lot more lost between us and now from us.
Speaker 1:And then, yeah, you know, I think there was there's still craftsmanship, there's still technique, there's still skill set there. Yeah, um, that's what I get frustrated with is my guys are passionate, they want to have a go, but they just haven't been told the finer details. And I find that with talking to other tradies and other guys like we're currently looking for another bloke at the moment and the few guys I've spoken to, there's just so much that they miss. They think they know it. If they're keen to learn, that's all well and good and I explain that to the guys. But we had a guy late last year worked for us for two weeks. He was six months out of his apprenticeship and decided to tell me that he'd been taught by the best because I asked him to arras architraves.
Speaker 2:Oh this, yeah, yeah, tell us about that, because this is something that shits me to tears. You can't even sorry to cut you off, mate, but like I last year, like we refurbished the inside of our house and so I did all the fit out to one area myself. So over two weekends, got stuck into it and I'm down in the shed and I'm going through all my old boxes and everything trying to find my little Ares planer. Yep, because I couldn't find it. So I've gone down to total tools and I've gone to sydney tools. You can't fucking buy one, no, and like, if you, well, if you do, you've got to order it in. Yep, because no one uses them. That's right, because they send all this pre-prompt shit out yeah like tell, tell.
Speaker 2:Tell the people what we're talking about, because okay.
Speaker 1:So to me it's, it's a no-brainer. So when you're doing any type of finished timber architraves, things like that, you've got a sharp corner. So it comes out and it's square, dressed, d-a-r. Dressed all around mould or whatever it is, and you've got the sharp corner and this guy he was doing some architraves on this big reno we were doing, and I dropped back and said to him you haven't arised it. And he's like what do you mean? I said, we haven't arised the corner. And he's like that's what we always do. And so I got talking to him and asked him and he worked in a few different places throughout his apprenticeship, um, and he was just like no, you don't need to do it.
Speaker 1:So then I got the rest of the team together and talked to them about it and asked them if they knew why I wanted to arrest. And they one of them said, oh, it's just to take the corner off so no one hurts himself. And I said well, that's part of it. It also helps prevent bruising. I said, but the biggest part of it is paint can't stick to a square corner gives you a lot better finish on your paint yeah, your paint will roll around, less chance of chipping.
Speaker 1:But I've come across another guy since then, exactly the same, who reckons that they don't aris anything on their um, their jobs at all.
Speaker 2:Well, the pro, like these days with the pre-prime stuff, that they sell most of the arc trays and that in there, like you can't aris it, as soon as you aris it, it chips all the pre-primed and yeah, but like, even so, even what I would. Actually, while we've been talking about this and just thinking like I've just, I would like to go backwards and forwards right now between you and me. Yep on shit, that's been lost, yep. So. First one is the arison. Yep, so that's. It does give you a far better finish on your paint, and that was always my job. You'd cut all your arc trays and then you'd stand at the saw bench just arrising everything. But the other part of that was you had to know which way the grain was running, because if you tried to arrise the wrong way against the grain, you'd take big chips and it'd look like shit.
Speaker 1:Well, just on, that alone is just recently. I said to the boys because we were using unprimed and they arised it and it went up on a door or a window or something and I said, oh, but it's a bit furry here. And they said, well, that's the grain. I said, well, what's the sandpaper for If you need to quickly run the sandpaper over it because the painter turns up and he's like, oh, not my job, he paints it and then you see all the furry stuff. Yeah, so it's just taking that little bit extra pride. But yeah, you know, arising is a big one, yeah.
Speaker 2:Well, that's the second one sandpaper. Like I was taught my whole apprenticeship. Like you have a piece of sandpaper in your nail bag all the time, yep, Like it didn't matter what you're doing, even framing, like if my boss ever found me like. So my boss actually used to do random checks. Some mornings I'd get up and I'd throw my nail bag on and be starting to get into it. They'd go, young'un, show us your fucking nail bag and he would check how sharp my chisels were.
Speaker 2:So the other thing I used to get in the shit for if I didn't have my chisel in the right pouch, so we had to have proper chisel pouches. So they were in the right pouch, so we had to have proper chisel pouches, so they're in the leather and they didn't stab into your legs. If I hadn't, for one reason or another, if I had multiple chisels on me and they didn't fit in my chisel pouch and I'd just put them in another part of my nail bag and they were getting chipped and damaged by nails or whatever, I'd get in trouble for that. Yep, I'd get in trouble for that. Yep, if I hadn't, like if we'd change like I don't know if the day before we're doing so feets and I had so feet nails in my nail bag and today we're framing and I hadn't put the so feet nails back in the so feet box and had the right nails, I'd get my ass kicked for that.
Speaker 1:That's one of my pet hates. Yeah, I had a guy a few years ago, about once a month. He would just up in his nail bag on the floor and it was liquid, all sorts, yeah, and I just say to him why don't you just go back to the trailer? There's all containers, take it out, put it back in yeah, yeah, and then yeah, and then the sandpaper.
Speaker 2:Like if I didn't have sandpaper in my bag I'd get my ass kicked. Sharp pencil stanley knife if my stanley knife didn't have a sharp blade in it. Yeah, um, so like another one. Like we've talked about the facing, so we didn't really get into that, but like, so facing is putting your little, um, I don't even know how you describe it, but like you go up and you do your loop like an f.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, it's a bit like a running riding f, you know, starts loops up and drops down. Yeah, and then, as you come over the edge, you do the v off it. Yeah, so you've got a face edge, a face face and then a corner.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah and so that was, and you you might have other ideas and things you use it for, but, like we, we had to have that on everything. Like, if we were doing so, feet moldings, we had to put have it on that so they knew which way. Like, when we walked it back to them, they knew which way it went. Um, so, feet sheets like you'd always have your face edge so they knew which side to put in the fascia or which side went against the wall or whatever. Um, like, I don't see very much of that now and that's like seriously, as I'm sitting here having this conversation, I'm literally making this list in my head of a of my next um training day.
Speaker 1:I'm gonna have a simple task that we've lost. Yeah, that actually tells the next person. So it's a feed sheet. You're molding whatever it is. You're at the saw cutting it. You walk around the corner, pass it to the bloke and walk away. Yeah, he doesn't need to go. Hey, mate, which way does it go? Yeah, he can have a look. That's marked out. You see, another one of my pet hates in moldings is you get them delivered to site in the garage, wherever they end up, and every trade walks over top of them oh yeah, yeah, protecting your gear yeah, just walking all over your gear.
Speaker 1:But so you pick it up and you have to check it. So if it's a bit of square dress, you might use this end of it on one face, but you might use the other end on the other face because you might have to roll it over because there's a bit of damage in it. Yeah, um, where the guys aren't taught to look at that, they just pick it up, cut it, put it up and all of a sudden there's a hunk in it and I'm like take that down because that's no good. So I really like to. It's about the finish taking the pride, delivering the really nice product at the end of the day, but just taking some pride, but educating those guys so you're not going back and having to redo something. So it's those small steps that I talk about dumbing down that are being lost.
Speaker 2:But same thing you should be. Well, this might be the next one. You're always taught to view your materials. If you're cutting as a feet sheet, is it appropriate? Has people been walking over it? Has it got stone Bloody walked into it? Your architraves when you're cutting architraving skirting, have they been damaged?
Speaker 2:Camille gives me shit all the time about like we haven't done it for a while, like over the years when we've done our own developments and things like occasionally we've gone to some display homes and had a walkthrough and like I actually I refuse to even do it anymore but like we bought some land where we've split the land and we've put some cheap hours on and stuff whatever. But so we've gone to look through some display homes and like you walk through display homes and you'll see an architrave that has clearly been stacked in the garage. It's rained, it's got muddy and every 500 trades have walked over the top of it and it's got all these stone imprints in it. And it's got all these stone imprints, yeah, in it. And it's someone's picked it up, cut it, fucking, nailed it on. The painters come in, slap the paint over the top of it.
Speaker 1:yeah, look, that's just that's just shit, yeah, definitely. Another one is um squaring your studs, yeah, do you come across that where they pick them up and just cut them? Cut them to length, yep, yep, I'm probably old school, but I you dock every hand.
Speaker 1:You dock it off, measure it, cut it again, yep. And even if it is square, it could be a bit rough or jagged. See, I treat my frame like my fix out, yeah. So if we've got a skew nail hanging out, knock it out, fix it up. Yeah, if you've got all your noggins or you've got to skew nails in, we punch all our nails. And I find that the guys struggle with that initially. But as I say to them is, at some point in time the client's going to come through the plumber, the electrician, whoever does roughings, and the better your frame looks, the more chance there is a recommended you for another job. Yeah, if you you got wild frames and you know noggins with 10 mil gaps in them and everything else, even your nails.
Speaker 2:So this is turning into an educational session mate for um, for builders and traders and owners, but I think it's good because all these my one of my biggest things and I'm pretty proud of my team for it is I don't give a fuck if it's got a wall lining on it, if the concrete's going to cover it, if the cladding's going to cover it, like I don't care, like you need to make everything look as if it's letting left exposed yeah, I agree totally and I'm the same like you said like.
Speaker 2:So again I'm trying. I keep going back to how I was taught and trained because I want to give people an indication of, like I guess, what I went through you went through like you and I taught very similar some of my um, like a lot of my guys in my team like. So I think it has gotten better because it's 20 odd years ago or more, um 20 shit 24 years ago since I started my apprenticeship, but um well, I won't tell your mind then, because I worked it out the other day.
Speaker 1:It's only 40.
Speaker 2:That's, um, like the timber would turn up to site and it like it, it was out in one way or another. Like it could have been across the 90 mil direction, or it could have actually been across the 35 mil way, and so, yeah, we had to dock everything. So I think this can be the next little thing, but like, so one of our things was and I talked to my team about it all the time like it's also about efficiencies, like I don't think we teach efficiencies to people anymore. No, so, like, for when you're framing, for example, like the whole idea was like if it was a new, new job, you'd always get the truck to put the framing as close to the slab as you could. Ideally it was near the garage, because that's the biggest space, and then you would set your saw benches up in the garage slab and you would dock all your studs. So, and again, my first boss, des, as a carpentry apprentice, I would love to catch up with him, because so he would study the plans and like he, so he just knew, like, so we would turn up to start a frame. I started talking about this before. Like we were so efficient.
Speaker 2:So when we turned up to start a frame, um, so I was the apprentice and then it was him and his brother. So very first thing we would do with the three of us would work well, we'd, I'd get the gear out and the three of us would work together to square the slab up. So, and there was no, generally, by the time we got there, there was no profiles. We did a lot of work for volume builders, yeah, and so we would have to square the frame up and establish a square line.
Speaker 2:I think that's something that gets lost these days, like every single job we do. One of the first things we do whether it's renovation, new house is we establish a square line through the building. Yep, and those square lines are flicked. If it's an, if it's an existing house, we will pull square lines and we'll transfer those lines onto a bit of plasterboard wall or onto locations through the house that we can always refer back to like a datum line yeah, and so we know a perfect 90 degree square, both directions in the house, and that gets referred to through the whole job, the framing, the tiling, set out the whole lot.
Speaker 2:And then, uh, um, des would stand there with the plans, he would read the plans out and then bobby and I would hold the tape and make the marks and flick the slab out. We would flick the houses out literally in half an hour to an hour, like they were. Most of the time they were 180 to 240 square meters. And then he had a cutting list. So he would look at the plans before we started, and so my job was to get stuck into the cutting. So he would have a full sheet. It would have the length of the studs, how many studs had to cut. It would have all the jacks, it would have all the heads, it would have all their lengths, because he would just work them out like, if it's a 1800 window, um, we always put extra jacks, so we would always put two studs either side. Yeah, so it'd be 1800 plus your 70 mil each side, plus your 30 mil clearance. So he would have all the studs, how many, all the heads, what lengths, um, all the jacks, all the overs, all the seals, like, and I would just start cutting, yeah, and then so my job was to go around and place it. So I would have to, like he would tell me young, and they go there, fucking, they go over there, like. So I was called young and it was screamed out all day, every day, yeah, and around the outside of the front of the slab I would have to put piles of studs.
Speaker 2:And then, um, by the time I'd finished cutting that, him and his brother would have to put piles of studs. And then, by the time I'd finished cutting that, him and his brother would have walked around and they would have a cutting list for me of the plates. And so our plates were like we would cut two at a time, they were nailed together. If I ever tried to cut plates individually, man, did I get my ass kicked? And then same deal, like we would cut them, I would have to leave the nail in them, I'd have to take them and I'd have to lay them where they go.
Speaker 2:Him and his brother would start marking them out. As they're marking them out, they would bring them over to me and I would have to dock the undersides of where any doors were. I think that's something that gets lost these days. Very much so because, um, we were talking about this before. People just want to hit it with a fucking reciprocating saw and cut it out, like we had to cut it halfway through, so that when you're using your handsaw, your handsaw didn't hit the floor, didn't hit the concrete and wreck the blade, yeah, with the teeth on it, yep, geez this is bringing back memories, um.
Speaker 1:so there's already lots of little um, steps and processes there that you've talked about that. There's probably guys in their 30s that don't even know what you're talking about yeah, being in their trade, since they're an apprentice. Yeah. And they just run around like headless chooks yeah. Yeah, so there was a system and a process which made efficiency. Someone had a cutting list which actually, come to my head, was a story stick.
Speaker 2:Well, that's what we used to call it story books. And the story book would be a piece of timber, an off-cutter's feet sheet, a piece of cardboard, yeah so we did our shop jobs we were doing last year.
Speaker 1:There was quite a few steps across the front, different height shop fronts, but it was all cladded.
Speaker 1:We had to start at the bottom but we had to start on the highest part of the shop front and obviously go all the way up and end up at the bottom at the lowest point, but we had to make sure that the cladding carried all the way through.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so I made a story stick, yeah, and my boys were like, what are you doing? And I literally got a length of timber and, um, made it long enough, started at the bottom, marked out all my boards, yeah, put it on the wall, marked it out. Then I lasered a line through, went down further, put my story stick back onto the laser line so that I could see, you know, know whether it dropped down enough and where it all landed, because I didn't want the joins in my cladding to be like right on, you know, the top of the window or it might work, this window or not, that window, shop front and all these sort of things. So I made this story stick before we even started putting any boards on the wall, had it all marked out and then we transferred those marks onto the stops and then we pulled lines through.
Speaker 2:So for anyone that's listening that doesn't know what a story rod or a story stick is, again, my boss had three of them in the truck. Yep, one had all bricks marked out because we did a lot of cavity brick homes, so it would have seal bricks. It had seal bricks marked out on it. It had your normal bricks marked out on it. Then he had another one for weatherboard, so it would have just all the joints. So basically, a story stick or a story rod is just all your standard markings. But I guarantee you this is another pet hater of mine and if anyone listening does this the way that I'm about to explain, you need your fucking ass kicked. I can't stand it. And again, we see this when we do renovations uh, and you're doing an extension, whatever and you're patching into the chamfer board or weatherboard yep nothing fucking shits me more when we start to set our weatherboards out generally with some sort of story stick yeah
Speaker 2:and we, like you're saying they're scratching your head like how come this weatherboard is not lining up with that weatherboard there? And then you get out your laser, you start checking things. They've just put these weatherboards from this starting point. Go around the corner, these weatherboards from this, like you get to corners and nothing lines up, like if you're putting weatherboards or chamfer boards on a house, you should have the same horizontal lines around the entire house. I agree, do you agree?
Speaker 1:100. Yeah, and we've done renovations and extensions on houses where you've got it like you're coming across the last wall and you've got to run them on an angle because existing ones on that side, existing ones aren't the same height yeah and there's no. You don't have an option without ripping a lot of boards off okay, it shits me to tears, man, and it's again.
Speaker 2:I've been to volume builders where I've seen it completely out, but like. So back to the story rod. Like a story rod, the first thing you should do, shouldn't you like? I'm loving this. Actually, I don't know if you're getting anything out of this, but it's bringing up lots of old memories for me and it's definitely reminding me of shit I need to teach my team. But it was just taught to you, wasn't it? It was the first thing you did Like when you got to a point. So, I guess, with the brick work. So we did cavity bricks. So while I'm cutting the timber, the boss is starting to mark the wall plates out. He's using his story rod to make the windows work. Full bricks, like brick work.
Speaker 2:Because, mate, if we didn't set out brickwork and the brickie had to cut bricks on every single corner and against every single window, fuck me Like. Did we get in the shit? Yep, so everything had to be set out to work brickwork Like. How many people would know how to work out brickwork these days?
Speaker 1:Well, they don't. And that's one of the things I was talking to my boys when we'd had the whiteboard out and I was talking about the brick base. I then talked about marking out your windows. So we'd often do what they call a loose stud. Yeah, so when you'd make your frames up, you'd put your stud and just tack it in. Yeah, so that you could pull it out and potentially push the window one way or the other. Yeah, because you've got the base already in there. You would mark out the the windows, because the brickie could cut half bricks with his bolster, because we weren't running brick saws like they do today yeah, half bricks were fine.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you get your half bricks, but yeah, they don't want to be running little quarters and things like that, so you'd make things move and adjust them around. So it comes back to what we're talking before. First of all, the system and the process, but also the why. Yeah, the story stick. So. So, as you were being taught, you were being taught why you do that. Where today, you're not being taught that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and then with the cladding, as soon as you got to a point where you're starting to set up your cladding, you run around with your, you get all your corner stops set up and then you go around with your story stick and you mark all your cladding on your external corners, on the stops. My guys, it's one thing I'm super proud of, like they're good at doing it now and getting everything set out. But I love turning up Like we're probably chopping and changing a bit. But one thing that I think is lost is preparation. Yes, because everyone's just rushing to get everything done and it comes back to what we started today off with like whole society, whole world being fast, people not learning, parents both working, like not getting to spend the time, like everything is busy. But I'm the biggest fan of like prior prep. You see it on T-shirt, what is it? Prior preparation prevents piss, poor performance.
Speaker 2:Yeah, preparation prevents piss, poor performance or something like that um the um, like with the cladding, like you get your corner stops on and you go around with your laser. You set your datum up and then you go around with your story stick and you mark every single horizontal join out, like these days, with all the the hardies and the weather techs products. And now they've got these. I don't even know what they're called. We don't have them.
Speaker 1:Like those cladding spacers, clad mates.
Speaker 2:Yeah, clad, mates. Yeah, we don't use them either, like that to me, that like, yes, it's not a bad product, but that's just completely lost what we're talking about, because with that you put your bottom board on in a way you're not checking anything, you're not checking your corners, You're not marking all your corner stops, you're not making sure that the cladding is going to be level and horizontal around your whole building.
Speaker 1:Well, see, it also just comes back to, I suppose, laziness and complaciveness. Yeah, some of your boards are designed like a chamfer. They've got the plastic lip on the back or your weather techs, but they can change, yeah, so people are just going oh, because it's set up to sit on top of each other, she'll be right. Yeah, but we've actually, you know, especially in the weather techs and stuff like that, which I love, that product. But we'll check them every so often, make sure we're still going parallel, and sometimes you've got to push them up a little bit or just down a little bit.
Speaker 2:That's the thing. Like you, you should have a couple of mil in every joint. Yes, because what happens? Because, what happens if you have a? Because when you put your joiners on, that adds a couple of mil, yep. So what happens if you do? One wall that's long and it's got multiple joiners in it, so every single joint has creeped two or three millimetres, and then beside that you've got a little short 12 or 1500 return with no joiners in it and you just go and slap them all on top of each other. By the time you get up halfway up the wall, you could have 15 mil difference.
Speaker 2:Just grab a seat in them, yeah definitely, whereas if you set it out with a story stick and you have the bottom of your boards on every single Look, for me it just makes it quicker, like if you go around and set all your corner stops up and every stop has the bottom of your weatherboard marked on it. Literally all you're doing is cutting the boards like, put slide in it to line up with your marks and nail it on the wall.
Speaker 1:Nail it on, yeah.
Speaker 1:It's not rocket science, it also gives you the ability to see where your joins land, where your rips are going to be over doors and windows. So that first board, you might rip a bit off it to drop it down so it works better. You know all those things where it lands on your feet. So with your your story stick you can go through and check all that stuff to get a better finish so you're not putting a tiny little piece in the top. Yeah, you might drop your first board down, rip some off it so you've got a bigger piece that goes over the top of it yep, mate, we are killing it.
Speaker 2:We're letting out a lot of trade secrets here today, but, um, what is something else? What is something else that's lost these days? I think there's hundreds of them. But, like all these little things we're talking about, like I really hope there's people listening to this podcast that are going to go holy shit, like that. Yeah, I'm going to do that, I'm going to teach myself about that, I'm going to introduce that to my team, like I hope. Like one thing that shits me to tears is all these younger blokes around that have set up these carpentry companies. They got 20, 30, 40 carpenters working for them and they race around all the volume builders and the unit developers and they just smash it up yeah throw the frames up, smash all the cladding on like they're not doing all these little things.
Speaker 1:No, they're not doing all these little things?
Speaker 2:No, they're not, are they? And what do you think that is? They haven't got enough money in the job. Developers aren't paying them enough.
Speaker 1:they're not taught Both those and they're probably not taught enough so they're not taught the finer details. I sort of look at a few less jobs that are doing better yeah, probably being old school, I suppose but I think they just aren't taught the right methodology of doing stuff. Yeah, the amount of guys that you talk to that don't even understand installation specifications. You know about whether it's supposed to be two mil gap, like on a WeatherTech's board, off the stop so there's room for it to move. They cut them all tight and then wonder why their stops start rolling out and that sort of stuff. It comes back to the education part of it.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Mate, what about backing your doors off? That's a good one.
Speaker 2:Most guys don't even know what that even is.
Speaker 1:Do you want to tell us what it is? Yeah, so it's when you take the hinge side of your door and you plane a chamfer across it. Now for me. So if it's a internal door that's like masonite, both sides ready coat we don't touch that edge, that masonite edge. So if you start touching that edge, the door becomes narrower. So you're just going from the inside edge of the, the lining, and go about three mil across your door. So when your hinges go on they don't bind up. So when they close they're not, they're not pressing on himself, but also gives room for the paint. This is another one is people don't allow enough for the paint, because you've got three coats of paint on the edge of the door, three coats of paint on your jam. All of a sudden there's a big build up and they wonder why their doors are, you know, rubbing when they close yeah.
Speaker 2:So for all the builders and chibis out there that maybe don't know what backing doors off are, if you're installing your doors and you're shutting the door once you got your stops and your lock on and the door is wanting to spring back at you, that's because you're not backing your doors off. Yeah, three mils, perfect, like I again. That was one of my jobs. The polar doors would be in the garage and you had to run the planer along the door and you had your sandpaper, because once you run your planer along, there might've been some furry edges and you had to hit them with the sandpaper.
Speaker 1:And then you'd arras that edge again.
Speaker 2:Arras the edge again. Yep, so again.
Speaker 1:That's another very, very good trait of a good tradesman carpenter or builder that's been getting lost in that yeah, well, the door should be able to, you know, sit 10 mil a jar and not want to spring open. Yeah, but that's you know. Once again, a couple young tradies with me. Um, they do it, but they were never shown. Yeah, I never could understand why their doors are. They're springing them all the time fuck, I need my notebook.
Speaker 2:Shay we um, because I'm to have a team meeting with my boys. We do a lot of this stuff, but yeah, face edging, backing doors off, wedging your jams.
Speaker 1:Yep. So how are you fixing your door jams?
Speaker 2:Well, nail-wise T-nails, yeah, okay, but I don't know from what're hearing they're. They're sort of going to start phasing out tea nails yeah I get well. Hey, seriously, we could talk. We could go all day with this, but that is another pet hate of mine. Like I cannot stand door jams and windows that get installed with finishing nails. Yep, like that's just. Well, the windows is an interesting one.
Speaker 1:Yep, like that's just. Well, the windows is an interesting one. So about I don't know, 12 years ago I went to Mackay and built a house for some friends of a friend up there and on the bracing ply I had all these things written down. So I had window sizes. There was a lot of 18 by 6 windows and after it there was a number, I think it was 10. But all the different size windows I'd written on this bracing ply with a number after it which equated to how many fixings it needed. And there was options, because it was a c2, so it was a high silicon area, um, and I was using what I call thin three. So hand drives, yeah, uh, 3.15 um, and I put all my windows in. That's how we install our windows with them.
Speaker 1:So, and I had all these numbers and the brick, he said to me what are all these things got written on here? And I said, well, every window needs that many fixings to suit this category here. So I think the 18 by 6 has had like 10, 10 nails. And he's like what do you mean? And I said, well, to suit category two winds, like I need to have that many windows to make sure it's going to stay there. And not far from there was an estate and he said on the way home this afternoon. He said call in to one of these other builders and have a look at what they did. So we went in and same size windows.
Speaker 2:One window had three finished nails and it was architrave off yeah, most, most builders are putting or chippies are putting window like the average window in with four to six finishing nails. Yeah, like the code doesn't even allow for finishing nails anymore.
Speaker 1:So there's Windows Association Australia. You can actually look it up. There's all different tables in there. You can look at what area you're in, what category you're in, and then what type of fixing whether you want to nail it, screw it, whatever you want to do, and it will tell you what size and how many you've got to have yeah so we do.
Speaker 1:For us everything's done with what I call thin threes. Um, so you pack the bottom of your window, you put it in and we put a nail in the bottom. One nail on the bottom on both sides, so it's in the height, you know. Flush with the plasterboard inside wherever you want to put it, and then we'll go to the top and put a packer in and then put one nail in that Plum it up. Yep, plum it up. So do the same on the other side. And then I put the sash back in the window, because sometimes your windows are out of square, but just because it's dead plumb when you put the sash in, it may not be parallel when it closes. So we'll tweak it a little bit. But even where the packers go, you're supposed to pack the bottom corners, the top corners, no packers over the top. But we'll put a nail in the top. So if the frame wants to move, it can move.
Speaker 2:But then we'll go back and double nail and then straighten it with our thin threes, yeah, and then punch them home. Yeah, we pack and screw all of our windows, yeah, so pretty much exactly what you just said. But we, we solid pack the window and we we screw it. So we tack it in with finishing nails. Yep, well, t nails. I think t nails are fantastic, um, but even even just things like that, like so many young people and are in such a hurry and this is all trades that they're not using the right tool for the job, they're not using the right fixing for the job, um, I suppose.
Speaker 1:Going back to windows and tools, the old uh folding rule. Yeah, it is my favorite and I get all my guys to get the old. Well, you get the raybone back in the day now they're just a stanley. Yeah, when it's fully folded it's 10 mil. One leg is five mil. If you've got villa board, you just be a mil proud, it's six. You put it across the corner, you can. You know, there's so many things you can do with it. Yeah, um, but that's how you get that distance and a lot of guys don't even know how to do that.
Speaker 2:I know, and it made it just honestly, my blood boils when you see these people on instagram that are thousands of followers and spruiking that they're best at this and the best of that, and what you see, the shit they're doing. Like mate, you got no craftsman in you at all.
Speaker 1:Yeah, like but I think it comes back to having the craftsman but wanting to deliver a good product. And once I used to think that a good product was having really nice miter joins and that sort of thing. But now I've learned too that it's the experience for the client is there, but also what they don't see. It's probably more important sometimes than what they do see. Obviously, you know a good fix out, good paint job good, good architraves, that sort of stuff. But as we go back before the frames, good, straight job, good architraves, that sort of stuff. But as we go back before the frames, good, straight frames nailed together well, all those sort of things is what make the bones of the building.
Speaker 2:Yeah, do you still pack? Your door jams, Yep. And the internal doors cut all your wedges. Yep yep, I see so many jobs where they don't put wedges in their doors, like especially around your locks and your striker plates and things, and then again, like you see doors that are just smashed on with um, like 50 mil seabrads or just really light gauge finishing nails. What about plasterboard?
Speaker 1:screws in the hinges, oh yeah, no, no, I'm not a fan of that. No, we don't either. So we use all stainless steel hinges, whether they're butt or um, hairlines, yeah. But we take all the stainless steel screws and I just give the boys just normal zinc screws, wait until the painters have been done all their stuff and we go around, take them out and put the stainless steel screws back in, because the painters are going to strip the heads, do something to them, yeah, and so we just go back and change all the screws later yeah, we're, we're similar.
Speaker 2:We don't change the screws, but we um go back and change all the screws later. Yeah, we're, we're similar. We don't change the screws, but we um uh, todd masuva generally has big boxes in his truck. Like we go through fiddle, pre-fiddle the hardware and then, um, take it all off and put it in a big box yep, and then generally we'll do the final fit after the paint has come through as well.
Speaker 2:But like, I feel, um, like this stuff that we're talking about, it's all well and good, but like, is there lots of people out there like you and I that are passionate about this and that want to teach young people the right thing? Like there's two very clear sides to this. Like one is that, like, are the young people wanting to know these skills and wanting to step up to the plate and do they want to be craftsmen or good quality tradesmen? And I think the other side of it is, like, as builders, like are we taking this stuff seriously enough? Are we teaching them correctly? Are we spending enough time with them? Like, are we always in too much of a hurry, correctly?
Speaker 1:are we spending enough time with them, like? Are we always in too much of a hurry, like I? I think too that if, um, if people spent the time to put into the to the young guys young tradies, young apprentices, and and some won't, but I think that if they had the right direction, we would probably end up with better tradesmen coming through, I think, because people don't want to spend the time, yeah, um, where they don't want to spend the time, where they don't want to spend the time or they don't want to pass on the little secrets. They might just want to keep them close to themselves because they've worked out a way of doing something that's simpler or quicker or more effective but get a good job, but not wanting to give someone else their little trade secret. Where I tend to look at it the other way the more I can put in my guys, the less I've got to hold their hand and the more they can give me back and the more they deliver a good product I, I believe it's a money thing.
Speaker 2:Eh, I think it's, which is which affects the time. Yep, 100. Like I feel so confidently that so many builders just are not pricing their jobs correctly, have absolutely no idea of their overheads. You know, in Live, like Build overheads, we talk about all the time knowing your numbers, knowing your data. So they're not running a good business. They don't know their data, they're not covering their overheads, poor cash flow, not making enough money for the jobs, not paying themselves correct salary, like all these things which leads to get in, get the job done as quickly as possible.
Speaker 2:So because I know for a fact that since I have learned how to run a better business, I price my jobs accurately, I know my overheads, I know exactly how much time I've got in the job for things. I am confident to spend time with my team and I tell my like, I tell my lead chippies like I don't give a fuck if you've got to spend two hours to make sure young billy's up to speed and knows what he's doing. Spend the time with him. Yeah, get him to do it properly, whereas most builders are just fucking get out of here we got. Yeah, get him to do it properly, whereas most builders are just fucking get out of here. We got to get on to the next job, like hurry up, get that done, like yeah, um, which is sad, isn't it?
Speaker 1:it is sad. Yeah, so it's definitely money driven, there's no doubt about it. Um, but it comes back to do less jobs better than trying to, you know, smash out more jobs and not do them right, do you?
Speaker 2:feel as a builder, you have a responsibility to deliver your clients what they should be getting in regards to rules and regulations, construction codes, product installation guides, like all those things.
Speaker 1:I have an obligation to deliver better. Yeah, good answer, mate. Well, I think you know we've just been sort of up-schooling the team on some new products and things like that and I was looking at this as an option that we could, you know, present to the clients. But now my take on it is this is now my new standard that we're going to do so. I will educate the clients on it, but by using a better product, in the long run they have a better overall outcome.
Speaker 2:Yeah, we're sort of going a bit away from the younger people and the training and stuff.
Speaker 2:I think we've covered a lot of stuff that will help a lot of young people get better at what they do and stuff.
Speaker 2:I think we've covered a lot of stuff that will help a lot of young people get better at what they do and and stuff, and hopefully we've lit a spark for some builders to spend more time with their trades and teach them some of these old habits. But, um, I just want to come back to what you were just talking about then, that the product that you're learning about at the moment has become your new standard, because I think this is a really powerful mindset to get into, because when you believe in yourself so much and you believe in what you're going to deliver your clients and you have the confidence to say this is the way we do things, if you don't want it too bad, go and go and get the cheaper quote yep, that's power, like, that's confidence, that's commitment, that's that's worthiness, like, um, and that that just flows through your entire. That'll flow through yourself, it'll flow through your team, but it'll also flow through the, the type of clients that you attract to your business yeah, 100.
Speaker 1:And we've got one particular job it's a new building and drawn up um and I pitched it to the client and I didn't expect them to take it, but I delivered it with confidence and just said this is how we do it. This is going to be long term better, more efficient for the build, it's going to make the house um healthier performing and everything else. And they loved it. And I thought I might have a bit of pushback, being an older couple and everything else, and they just took it on board and run with it. Yeah, um. And that really sort of pumped me up and thought, right, well, that's what we're going to be doing. This, this is what we're going to do now, because I always deliver better yeah like the standards, as we know, are just the minimum.
Speaker 1:But I always go to the next bit. I have a bit of a sort of saying if you know, won't do it in my own house, don't do it in someone else's yeah and I always say to my boys would you accept that at home, you know, is that good enough to be in your house?
Speaker 1:and if they hesitate, I'm like, take it out, it's time to fix it. You know, yeah, and not that we do that often, but I like to sort of keep that conversations going, let them know where I'm coming from. But, yeah, no, definitely.
Speaker 2:I think, um, taking a standard or a new product, that's better than what the standard says and being able to deliver it definitely gives you power yeah, what's your opinion on like younger or apprentices, younger people across all trades and possibly even tradesmen taking more time to understand and read documents, plans, specifications and things?
Speaker 1:I think they all should do it. Yeah, it should nearly be like a set of plans to take it home at night time, just about. Yeah. But that's one thing I say when we're problem solving, especially, you know, renault's and things like that. Or if there's just an issue that arises, I say to my team you know, everyone put their thoughts forward, doesn't matter what it is, whether it's right or wrong, it might trigger the solution.
Speaker 1:Um, but also letting them have that time and even if it's at work, you know on the site, if they've got to read the plan, understand it. Keep asking me the questions, but don't say to me yes and go and do something different. Yeah, if you don't know, keep telling me. You don't understand, because the way I explain something to you could be totally different, the way I explain someone else, because everyone learns differently. So I've got to mix it up and change the way I'm telling somebody to make sure that they fully understand like going back to before, when we're talking about jack studs and things, like it's a no-brainer, like I get it.
Speaker 2:Like I think back to when I was younger and apprenticing that. Like reading plans after hours and even during the day that was the last thing I wanted to be doing.
Speaker 2:I just wanted to get to work, put my nail bag on and get stuck into things, but it's one of those things you don't know what you don't know. That's right. Your life becomes so much easier, like and I would give this advice to any young people and tradies that are listening out there like if your boss is giving you a hard time, if you feel like you're always getting your ass kicked, go home and read through the engineering like, read the, read the tables in the, generally in the last couple of pages, like the width of openings and minimum studs and minimum jacks and size heads and all these types of things, and like just review it and get, get your head around it so that the next time you're doing some framing you can put in the correct amount of jacks and you can have the correct head size and like all those types of things like. It's like again, it comes back to the preparation, doesn't it?
Speaker 1:it does preparations, yeah, and whether it's preparing to the slab or the frame or even your boys, you know, just preparing them, like you said, giving them the plans to go through reading that information. It makes it so much easier. But going back before, as we said about things that are lost, I could be on site talking to the boys about unders and overs and things like that and they just got this blank look on their face because they haven't thought I'm talking about, yeah, and you start talking cripplers and creepers and things like that, yeah, and that that information just isn't coming down. I know we're like a lot more trusses now, a lot more pre-nails and stuff, but they still need to be explained and told what they are yeah, king post and collar ties and like yeah, beams, like hip rafters, like they, just because you may like.
Speaker 2:I think this sort of stuff's really important because the common excuse is I've never done it before. Yeah, or and like. You would know, like, even when you get new trades come in like I've never done that or like, and a lot of the time as the employer you can't ask them every single question when you're giving them a job interview or when you're talking to them about something on site, and a lot of the time you don't know what they don't know, until something comes up and they've done it either different to what you want or possibly wrong. So it's taking the time to explain it to them. But people just can't keep using this excuse that I don't know, can they?
Speaker 1:no, but when it's, I don't know it should then be. Can you please tell me, or can you please explain that to me? Yeah, it shouldn't just be.
Speaker 2:I don't know, or I haven't done it, but it's making them feel comfortable to ask that, isn't it? Yeah, oh, definitely like it's giving them a safe work environment where they feel comfortable to ask those questions, and not that you're just going to go off and think they're a dumb shit, or I think you've got to make them feel that no question's a dumb question.
Speaker 1:I think that's that's a big thing. For me is just to let them know. They can come to me and just ask me the question, whatever it is, and you might think well, I thought you would know that or thought you should know that. That might be your thought, but then you've just got to break it down and explain it to them. So just encourage them to ask the questions, because as soon as you do that, your team performs better.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I think, again, you've got to have the time to well, you've got to make the time to show them when the thing, the whatever it is, comes up. Yes, because it doesn't matter how many toolbox meetings you have and how many lists you try to make, at the end of the day we're building homes. They're every single one's very different, yep, whether it's new or renovation. So it's like I know, with my team, I try and push it all the time. It doesn't always happen, but whether it's myself, whether it's my supervisor, whether it's a lead carpenter, if something comes along, don't just keep saying, well, they didn't know or they don't listen.
Speaker 2:Like take, like, call your own team meeting. Like, pull the job up. Yeah, say, hey, boys, look this, let's have a chat about this. Like, let's dive into it. Like, do you know about this? Should we do that? Like, like you said before, like having those group conversations, even though you might be having it to inform one team member, having it as a group and a team is going to inspire more conversation that might bring something else up. Yes, so that as a team, you all grow together. More conversation that might bring something else up. Yes, so as a team, you all grow together and I think the more you can do those types of meetings, the more it's going to encourage your team to feel comfortable about asking questions.
Speaker 1:So it also goes back to preparation. So you spend 10 minutes there but it's going to save you an hour down the track. Yeah, and everyone knows. So someone can't say I didn't know, yeah, you didn't tell me. Yeah, so having the team meeting, that sort of works. So I I might be explaining something to one person, but I get all the boys involved, whether they know or not. Then that way everyone gets across the board with it, especially if it's something different. Like you said, king posts and collar ties, you know all those sort of things, but like I used to know, like all the formulas, I still know a lot of the formulas you know, but like where a collar tie sits, first of all, a lot of young guys wouldn't know what a collar tie is.
Speaker 2:yeah, I couldn't tell you off the top of my head where they gave it well, I've got me one third of the apex down from the top. Do you have a little red book? I sure do. Do you reckon there's many people that know what a little red book is? Nope, can you even buy them anymore.
Speaker 1:Sure can Remember when I did the CLT house with you and the two apprentices yeah. I bought them a little red book each.
Speaker 2:Oh right, I'm going to. Yeah. So for anyone that's listening and doesn't know, the little red book basically had all trade secrets in it, didn't it?
Speaker 1:It's a roofing. It tells you your rise and your degrees and it'll give you the run and you can cut a whole roof out, hand-pitched roof, without putting any timber up. It'll tell you your creeper cuts and everything else, or your valley jacks and all that sort of stuff.
Speaker 2:And it's just handy to have those sorts of books, isn't it Like I've got a heap still up in my office? I've got one of those. I've got a timber framing manual. Is that a trade?
Speaker 1:act. Yeah, I've still got the four trade act manuals, do they still?
Speaker 2:make them anymore. No, they were just having those things to refer back to. So much of what we're talking about now. Yes, we want to help young people. We want young people to be more passionate, we want them to get more involved, we want them to work quicker. All these types of things we've established like it's just a fast-paced world, like everything's just go, go, go. Things get forgotten, all those types of things. But at the end of the day, like you've got to create an environment where your team feel comfortable to want to learn and want to ask questions and want to achieve better than the standard and I think you're very good at that. Like you're doing lots of things. Like so, for the people that are listening, I guess that aren't doing it.
Speaker 2:You have regular team meetings with your team. Yep, always Every week. Yeah, I have multiple meetings with my team. Don't like I think so many bosses and builders and employers get so caught up that by pulling their team up for whatever it is half an hour, an hour it's going to cost them so much money. They're already behind on the job and, oh shit, like we got to get it to the next payment. Like it's just go, go, go. But like you touched on before, like that half hour or that one hour discussion. It may not impact the job you're on now, but the next job you do that's right is going to be a lot better.
Speaker 1:It's going to run a lot more efficient yeah, we did a three and a half hour training course yesterday that I paid the boys for and that's just straight out of my pocket. But when it comes time to use that product, we're going to save more than that three and a half hours, because the boys were hands-on, they got involved in it, um, they asked questions. So they're going to feel a lot more confident. If I just turn up with a product and say this is what we're using, then they're going to go how do we use it? What is it? Everything else where they've physically gone and played with it and stapled it on the wall, tried to tear it, all those things. So I know they're going to be more confident.
Speaker 2:There'll still be things to learn, but straight away it's going to be beneficial because I've already had a play with it. It's definitely one of those situations, isn't it? You got to slow down to move forward. Yes, definitely, so forget about the financial side of it, forget about what's got to be done on the job every now and then you just got to slow down, take the time out and spend some time with your team.
Speaker 1:Yeah, put some, put some time in to get some, some results back. Yeah, something else I thought of a minute ago, when you're talking, was, um, nailing, like nailing jack studs together and things like that. How many times, um, like I see other jobs and stuff too they just nail them up the center, they don't stitch them or double nail them. Um, and that's like for me.
Speaker 2:You know, I say to the guys, if we use one extra box of finish nails in a whole house, three thousand nails, you know, 35 bucks yeah, it doesn't mean you just put them in at 200 centers, double them up and your paint has to go around, spend three weeks putting them all up, but no, you want to have nails where there's meant to be now.
Speaker 1:Yeah, but you know, nailing them so that they're far enough apart, not just nailing them in the center, so it's holding your architrave on, so it's not wanting to curl. Yeah, getting the nail into your door jamb so that your architrave is actually holding your door jamb in place. It's stitched to that, stitched to the frame. Yeah, same in your framing. You know, like, just putting enough nails or a couple extra to make sure if you've got a bit of a bowy stud like you might have to bend it and put a few in and pull it back again just to get it right.
Speaker 2:It's just a care factor, isn't it? Yeah, like, how many times over the years have you had a young person on and like so you, we hand nail a lot of our cladding? Yes, I do. I refuse to use clout guns and shit. I think it's a terrible way of doing things. I think it's rough. Yes, it might be fast, but I don't believe in it.
Speaker 2:But, like, when you're hand nailing things and this could be decking, it could be weatherboards, whatever it may be, but getting like teaching them to have a feel for their hammer and what they're hitting, like, if they're nailing and like plasterers, like how many times have you been on a job site and your plaster is throwing sheets up and they're someone in the team's using a screw gun and you can hear by the sound of the gun they're not fucking screwing anything. Yeah, they're missing. Like, yeah, it's, it's not rocket science. Like, have enough care to make sure that if you're hammering a nail and it's actually going into the starter and it's it's holding the product that you're nailing on. If you're a plaster and you're screwing the plasterboard sheets on, like it's actually going into the timber, like well, that's another big one of mine is we pre-drill and pilot hole every screw we put in, yeah.
Speaker 1:So yes, there's screws that say they're self-drilling, but I've actually seen a test done and it was done with a batten screw where they'd just driven a batten screw straight in and then where they'd pre-drilled it with a pilot hole and screwed it in and they'd done a test on like pulling it apart and the one that was pre-drilled held way better. Yeah, because the way it damages the timber like screws have got a little bit better since then. But we use a lot of simpson screws and they say, oh, they're fine, just put them straight in. But we still pre-drill yeah, there's certain.
Speaker 2:There's certain things like I agree with you 100 on some things. There's definitely ends of rafters and things that you can smash them straight in, like with this place.
Speaker 1:But the majority of stuff. Yeah, so we'll drill a clearance hole and then a pilot hole. So so you've got two bits of material that you might be screwing together. And if you're using just a standard pre-drill screw, that timber doesn't always come tight together. Yeah, because it'll start to bind up. But if you've got a clearance hole in the first piece and then a pilot hole, that means the first piece is free to move on the shank. So therefore it pulls up tight. So I'm really big on that sort of stuff and teaching the guys.
Speaker 2:That's another simple little thing, mate. Like I believe there's every trade out there is not teaching this, the simple little things like brickies not teaching their younger people how to use their bolster properly and yep. Well, the one thing that all trades aren't teaching people out is clean up. Clean the site, yeah, but um. And clean up your workspace, but like, yeah, brickies using their tools correctly and um, like one thing that shits me with bricklayer is like making sure that, like you said before, like making sure there's not too much mud down the back of the wall and it's clogging up your holes. Cleaning your weep holes out, yep, um, like it amazes me the amount of reno's we do and the weep holes are full of shit yeah, like they may as well not be there.
Speaker 2:Yeah, um, yeah, like plasterers, spend the time with their team showing them how to set properly and get water joints and feather things out and um so it goes back to those little techniques that are being lost yeah, it comes back to, like you said, money and speed.
Speaker 1:But if we could slow down a little bit, we would do a lot. Better products, yeah, trades would be better, everyone would get more satisfaction out of it and there'd be the end result is a better product.
Speaker 2:Yeah, like all your, all your framing and stuff, like you know, if there's square set corners, like your plaster is going to build that corner up, probably three, four, five mil over a couple of hundred mil. Like, do you feather your corners of your frame in to allow that so that when you do your skirtings and like it shits me when you walk into a job and you you look at a tile joint along the edge of a wall and it gets to the corner and you can clearly see where the square setting of the plaster is is pushing out. Yep, like it's not the plaster's fault, like he's just setting a corner yeah um, do you set your corners up and allow for things?
Speaker 2:like that trying to allow for that. Or like, teach your younger people to like I again I'm not on site enough now and it's something I'll add to the list to talk to the guys about. But in situations like that, teaching your younger guys, like, don't just nail your skirting on, like, if it's if it's beside a tile joint or it's beside a line in a tongue and groove timber flooring, maybe take two mil off the back of your skirting for that last couple hundred mil, like feather it out so that you're not noticing it as much.
Speaker 1:The other one is the recess on the bottom of your plaster sheets. Yeah, go through and put little uh fibro nails so your skirt doesn't want to roll underneath and your corners. Put little packers in the corners so they stay out nice and straight and square and plumb with the wall. You walk into jobs and you just see that the skirting's all banged on and it's all pulled back.
Speaker 1:Another little trick that we do is when you got a skirting on an external miter and you've actually got the miter comes out and it's obviously sharp, going back to arising again. So I use my wide chisel, put it on there, use my hammer, tap it, roll it around the corner, do that up and down. So a couple of things is you can bring the miter together if it's slightly open on the long point but also puts a rounded edge which is then putting an arise on there, less chance of it chipping. But, like my younger guys, I showed them that one day and they were just blowing away. Yeah, um, but it's just a little trick or a little skill set that I was taught. Yeah, I'm trying to pass on to other guys just to try and get that slightly better.
Speaker 2:Finish on the job mate, I think all homeowners should be listening this podcast just so they can pick up on all these little tips and things that they should be watching, seeing what the trades they're picking to do work around their own homes are doing and not doing. But every trade has its tricks, doesn't it? Yep, and I think a lot of those tricks are what make us craftsmen. Oh, definitely, and it's those tricks that are getting forgotten. Yeah, I don't know what we do about it. I'd love everyone to reach out and give us feedback from this podcast, and if there's anyone else out there that's got a heap of tips, and tricks and things that wants to come on and tell them, shout out.
Speaker 1:Yeah, definitely that's. What it's about is to get people thinking and talking and just thinking. They might not change one thing, but it might just make their job that much better. Yeah, if everyone arouses their architrave, that's a great start.
Speaker 2:Well if it's unprimed, yeah, like it yeah so where do you shoot sandpaper then? Some of the like, some of the pre-primed products you can arouse, but not many like the ones that have that thick white shit on it like it's impossible. Yeah, stuff made in Chile. You try and chisel your bloody striker plates into that stuff and it blows out and chips and carries on. Yeah, it's typical.
Speaker 1:I actually groove my block plane on that white stuff yeah, just aerosol it up, yeah. So we often just run a bit of sandpaper on that one yeah, just to get a bit of a rounded edge on there, yeah.
Speaker 2:So helps for the paint. So mate what? What can young people do like what's? What's some advice for young people out?
Speaker 1:there that are maybe struggling a bit. What, what can they do? I think ask questions is, you know, like is the biggest one. Um, be enthusiastic and just show some some interest and try, and I suppose it's hard if the person they're working with doesn't want to show them or doesn't know. That's probably the hard part and that's what I probably struggle with is, I was in a position that I was taught fairly well and I've sort of learned a lot since then, but during my time. But you're passionate, yeah, I'm passionate yeah, you're like me.
Speaker 2:We've only got to where we are because we fucking love it. Yeah, like you've got to have passion. Yeah, got to where we are because we fucking love it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, like you've got to have passion. Yeah, we had an apprentice years ago that I actually put off because I sat him down and said to him what do you really want to do? And he said I want to do computers. And I said well, why are you doing this? And he said because my uncle's a draftsman, my other uncle's a tyler, my other uncle's a builder, my uncle's a cabinet maker. And I said you go home tonight and tell your mum and dad this is not what you want to do.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and his mum come to work the next day and tore strips off me and what is he doing? He's not doing chippy, you give it away. Yeah, so you've got to have passion. Yeah, but understand, there's tough times and good times. But for me, like I go to work every day and I'm creating something, you're watching it come out of the ground and when you're leaving in the afternoon, you see what you've done and my team you know like I'm a bit like you, I'm still on the tools a bit, but I still my team are doing a lot of stuff.
Speaker 2:My team will hear that mate and fucking give me shit forever. I'm not on the tools very much. No, no, but you still, I'm on the tools a lot around my own house but not on our job.
Speaker 1:But you still got the passion. So, yeah, your boys might be doing, we can't do what we do with our team. Yeah, that's the bottom line.
Speaker 2:So, on that, because I think this is important for younger people as well, and given that this podcast is aimed at trying to get some of this knowledge and stuff out there and get people motivated, how do young people like?
Speaker 2:One thing that I say a lot is I I firmly believe that what we do is like nothing else, like whether you're a brickier, plaster or a plumber, like whatever it is, but most other industries, you can have two, three, three hundred, three thousand people in a company. Yeah, they're not working over the top of each other. Like you can have a company with 300 employees that are all working on a factory floor stacking shelves, working computers. Yes, they might have to work together to get an outcome, to reach a target and all those or a deadline and those types of things, but we are physically like you're I've said this before on podcast like you can smell each other like you're in each other's pocket yeah, you're helping each other hold beams up, or so feet sheets, or one's cutting and one's nailing, or two and put fixing cladding, or one's cutting and a sheet of cladding while one's cutting and a sheet of cladding, like every single day.
Speaker 2:The outcome of that day is determined by how well you work together. Yeah, definitely. Do you agree on that? Yeah, 100. So there is a lot of extra pressure in there, because it's not just if you, if you're having a bad day, you're you're dragging your feet around, you're down in the dumps, you're affecting the outcome of everybody else, the other people that you're dragging your feet around, you're down in the dumps. You're affecting the outcome of the other people that you're going to be working with that day.
Speaker 1:So it's culture, isn't it Trying to really instill a good culture in your team? And the other one is, sometimes there will be someone that doesn't gel with the team, which is a decision you have to make. And I spoke before about the young guy I had last year, only for two weeks. And I spoke before about the young guy I had last year only for two weeks. When I look back at it now, my team shut off to him. Yeah, like in the first week they shut off to him.
Speaker 2:Yeah, we had a guy like that last year as well and I missed it. Well, I didn't miss it. We were busy and I should have let him go a lot sooner than we did. Yeah.
Speaker 1:It's a hard call. It's a hard call, it is a hard call. But I think you've got to have the culture in that team so that they perform well or get on well together and that makes the performance better. Yeah, so sometimes there is the the hard calls that you got to make just to mix that team up or like get rid of the one bag, I suppose would you say.
Speaker 2:The hardest part of running a building business is the team definitely yeah, like I, I definitely think that the team there's just always so much going on, um, like this week or the last couple of weeks in particular in my building business, like I take everything very personally.
Speaker 2:So we've got, um, a couple of young people that are injured, we've got guys dealing with mental health issues, we've got people have had deaths in the family.
Speaker 2:Like there's all this stuff that goes on away from work that when you're working so closely as a team, affects everybody. And then when you've got a lot of work on, like it, you can feel like the weight of the world's on your shoulders because, like, as soon as you don't have team members there, yeah, the the progress slows down, the you may have another other jobs scheduled to get onto, so you've got to let people know that you're not going to turn up on time. Like there's such an on-flow effect, isn't there that not having that good culture and that good team? But and then I struggle with it because I feel for them, like I don't want someone coming to work if they're not in the right mindset and if they're having difficult times. I want to support them, I want to give them time off, I want to get them to go and see someone like. There's so much that goes on isn't there.
Speaker 1:But that's what creates the good team. Is because you're taking that on board, whereas a lot of people just put the wall up or they don't care. You know, that's not not why you should just get the job done. Yeah, there's someone off, crook or whatever, but we don't really care about that. But because you're taking that on board personally. That's what's helping make a good team, because then they know that you're invested in them and I think by showing that you're invested in them, that helps pull them through.
Speaker 2:Yeah, the team is the be all and end-all makes or breaks yeah, because at the end of the day, like a lot of builders, I'm sure yourself and and I know our business like we could double or triple the size of our business in a heartbeat. Yeah, like there's no issue getting the jobs, there's no issue producing quality work, there's no issue running the business. Yeah, trying to trying to build a team to um that all gets on together, that, and like it's so hard, like everybody has different religions and opinions and beliefs and like there's just so much to it. So, yeah, I'm definitely a firm believer that a building, a trade, is very difficult to keep that constant, um, good culture and good environment and people wanting to show up yeah, it is definitely.
Speaker 1:And because, as you said, everyone's in such such close proximity of each other factory floors or big office buildings you might have your own little cubicle you're all there but you're doing your own little thing, yeah, whereas, like you said, you know you could be um, doing some boxing and you're holding something and someone's leaning over the top of you with a hammer because they're driving a peg in and you hope they put deodorant on this morning, you know.
Speaker 2:Oh, you're screeding concrete, mate, and the guy on the screed's getting sweat dripped on him by the two guys pulling back Like it's.
Speaker 1:That's right, you're in each other's face. So culture and team are very important.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and we'll wrap this up very soon because we've definitely covered a lot of topics. I actually think this has been a cracking podcast. I think there's been enormous value in it and I really do hope that anyone listening that has heard all these little tips and tricks that maybe they've forgotten about, maybe they didn't know about, reaches out Like I know. I'd be more than happy to share photos or videos. I know, craig, you share a lot of stuff on your um, stewart homes, renovations, instagram um, like that's what it's all about, isn't it like helping the industry, like improving the quality of things? But just one thing before we wrap up, um, because it's something that's been on my mind lately and it ties in with what we're talking about. So with with younger people, um, possibly not getting done as much as what we feel they should get done. Yeah.
Speaker 2:It has this flow and effect, and one of the things that I'm I'm really I'm I'm passionate about it. It also scares me that I'm really passionate about it, it also scares me, I'm worried about is the on-flow effect it has for our clients. Yeah, because it's costing all of us more money. That's right. So it's all good. Like we track our data, we know how long things take on job sites and we can keep tracking that data and when we price the next job, we can allow for what it takes.
Speaker 2:But if things are getting done slower and slower and younger people that are coming through aren't in any hurry to get things done in a timely manner, the one that, like it's affecting all of us because it's costing all of us money. It's making everything more expensive. Our clients are having to spend more money. Housing's already very expensive, um, and then, like I just take like the last um couple of days, like we've had multiple team members off, so like they're on salary, on wages, like it's it's big money. Like in one day I can be spending two thousand dollars on on wages and salary that I've got no one on site producing work for yep, but my clients still have to cover those costs, because I like that money's got to come from somewhere does it come back to the systems again.
Speaker 1:So you, you were very efficient when you were taught as an apprentice. Does it come back to that? Does it come back to the younger ones? I suppose work ethics is part of it, yeah, and then does it come back to also having that systems or someone that can teach a system or a process to make that frame quicker, or something that the way it needs to be carried out? Because I think you're right that the younger generation don't have the urgency of having things done or the boundaries and the and the responsibility like we did, yeah, because it was consequences yeah so it all sort of comes stems back that big circle, and doesn't it?
Speaker 2:so so um, how do you go with your team? Because I'm sure there'll be lots of trades and that out there that have the same sort of issue, like how? Like the reason we were so efficient with the builders that I worked with during my time was everything was done in twos, threes or fours, whereas I find, like I find a lot of the time my team are doing trying to do things individually and, like I myself, my supervisor got to turn up and go like why aren't you doing this together? Like why are you not measuring that out?
Speaker 1:he's cutting, he's getting the gear back to, you're nailing it on, like, um, I agree with that totally I think that as soon as you, the industry needs well you know, on the jobs for us, you need to have teams working because it's really a team effort. Yeah, so the team needs to be doing it. As soon as you break them all up, there'll be times when there's little things you know, like your lead carpenter might go off and he might be doing some set out while the guys are bringing all the cladding around, setting the sewers up, setting the saw bench up, and then he's telling them what he's done or why he's done it. But definitely it's team.
Speaker 2:Yeah, as soon as you try to do stuff by yourself all the time, it just slows everything down yeah, and, like I, I think a lot of or some of the times, the, the team think they're doing the right thing because they might think that they're doing a bit of tie downs, a one-man job or something. But it just pays to have that person with you. You're not getting up and down the ladder all the time to put nuts and washers on rods and things, or you don't have to get down the ladder. Go down the next level, get underneath, put a spinner on it, go back up the top, put a rattle gun on it like so the yeah, the more you can do together as a team. But again, it comes back to that working in that close proximity, doesn't it like? Are you comfortable doing that?
Speaker 1:that's right but I think the team makes morale as well. So one person doing cycling rides by himself all day, it might take him 10 hours, but it might've taken two of them, five hours or four hours, because there's that little bit of banter, there's a little bit of morale, but also there's helping each other. One blokes down, one blokes up, so I think that's a really big one as well. And the other one I find too is if you're setting up, let's say you're doing sheets whether it's cladding some feets, whatever and they put one sheet on the stools and cut it and put one sheet on the stools like load it up the stools can take 10 sheets, 12 sheets, and just put a timber between them when you cut them.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, definitely if you get someone to help you load them on, because then I can mark it out and cut it by myself. You know, put it, put it to the side. It comes back to that preparation, doesn't it? It does, but education. So, therefore, you've got younger guys that have never been shown that you know, or they're cutting the cladding on the pack of cladding yeah, that's the other one that really shits me is working on the ground.
Speaker 2:Like I'm tall, so you know I've got big stools and everything else. But get up off the ground. But it's it's that preparation that will save you back and keep your trader trading for longer, like again. Preparation is huge and that's all part of your systems and processes. But, man, like, set up, set you like. Start your day well, finish your day well. Like, turn up to site if you're doing your cladding with your sheets, set your stools up. Work as a team. Two guys load the stools up with 20 sheets. Yep, like it shits me to tears when you see someone cut a sheet.
Speaker 1:Take it away, walk back to the pile, put another sheet on, like it and I suppose that's education, if it's a young apprentice or a young tradie and no one's ever told him. Yeah, comes back to what we're about here is like educating the younger wise.
Speaker 2:Well, it comes back to what you said before, the why. Yeah, and as I'm talking about this, I'm thinking to myself. I've got to tell my team more of the whys. Yeah.
Speaker 2:Because they don't see that if two of them laid the sheets on the stools in the morning, that could be 10, 15, 20 minutes. They don't see that if they cut a sheet, walk back to the pile, get one more sheet. Cut a sheet, walk back to the pile, get one more sheet. That the same time to move 20 sheets could be like. If you add your time up during the day, it could be five minutes each time.
Speaker 1:Yeah yeah, those 20 sheets could have just taken them an hour.
Speaker 2:Yeah, in the day it could be five minutes each time.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, like those 20 sheets, would have just taken them an hour, yeah, doing them individually, yeah, and and being harder on them, yeah, because they're bending down and more chance of breaking the sheet, damaging the edge of it. All that sort of stuff, yeah, comes into play yeah, it's um the why.
Speaker 1:That's one of the things for me is telling them why I want it done or why I think it should be done this way, or this is how I was taught and this is why we did it. So it comes back to the the big why all the time?
Speaker 2:yeah. So in that example, the why is you're saving a shitload of time. You're going to be more efficient, so you're going to get more done in the day. So the team morale is going to be up because you're not going to be getting told why, like, you're going to get a lot more done. Yep, you're going to save your back because you're not bending up and down all the time. You're going to be able to mark your sheets out more accurately because you're on a better work space.
Speaker 1:You've got a workbench to work on. A few timbers down on your stools. All your sheets are sitting on there, sitting nice and flat.
Speaker 2:Yeah, like the why is super, super important. Well, mate, look, look, I really appreciate your time again today. Like you're um, you've got to travel two hours to get here, so I appreciate you putting the effort to come down. I know how passionate you are about building um. Do you mind if people like give you a shout out and if they got any questions, reach out to you?
Speaker 1:I don't mind at all, more than happy to so where do they find you? Um, if they reach out on either Instagram or Facebook on Stuart Homes and Renovations yeah, s-t-u-a-r-t.
Speaker 2:Yeah, or otherwise, look up my number and give me a call yeah, and so I think what we've established from today's call like education Yep. Figure out. Like explain the why Yep. And like put training time into your team.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's a big one, I think.
Speaker 2:So the final thing to wrap this one up how often do you have sessions with your team?
Speaker 1:Every week, yep. Every week, yep. No matter how big or small. So every job has its own little quirky thing. So we run whiteboards, always got details on that, but I even bring up things that aren't even relevant. So if we're at work talking about jobs, I tell them about things that I did 15, 20 years ago, just to educate them. This is how we did it or this is the product we use and this is why we were doing it. So I just look at the more information I can give them. They take it on board. In the end, they become more beneficial to me and they love it. They like probably hearing some old bloke stories, but, um, yeah, I just try to educate them as much as I can yeah, it's super, super important.
Speaker 2:So look for everyone out there that's listening trades, builders put in the time, look, please make the time. Educate your team. Uh, whether it's at a small toolbox meeting once a week, um, I really highly recommend that you get your team doing them. Every morning we do a pre-start meeting. Run through, but have regular meetings with your team and educate them on what they're doing, the materials they're using, how they should be installing it, any tips and tricks that you've learned over the years. Get their input. I think that's a big, important one, isn't it? Like? Like, make them feel comfortable, get them to ask questions and something we touched on just before we started recording you're talking to Shay about it Like you can teach an old dog new tricks. Like it's not all our way or the highway.
Speaker 2:So like you never know, you might have a young bloke that might actually come up with a brilliant idea that will save you time. So, having those team meetings, meetings making sure everyone feels comfortable and having regular conversations, um, every now and then you might throw in a more detailed session where you book an engineer or you, you go and do an event or you learn more about a certain product, like craig and I do. But, yeah, educate your team, spend the time with them, spend the money on them, like that's what. Ultimately, that's what it's about, isn't it? It's investing time and money.
Speaker 1:It comes back tenfold, then they want to come to work. They want to be there because they know you've got their back, you're investing some time in them, so then they get interested in it. It's just not becoming just a mundane place to be. Yeah.
Speaker 2:Well, craig, thanks very much mate. Um, look as usual. Like subscribe, do all that stuff. We really appreciate everyone following us. Um, I am on a mission this year. I'm not sure when this podcast come out, but uh, 2024, I want to hit a million downloads. So, uh, get behind me, share, like comment, do everything you can. Let's uh fucking create a new industry. Mate, sounds good to me. Mate, cheers. Mate, are you ready to build smarter, live better and enjoy?
Speaker 2:life, then head over to livelikebuildcom forward slash elevate to get started everything discussed during the level up podcast with me, duane pierce, is based solely on my own personal experiences and those experiences of my guests. The information, opinions and recommendations presented in this podcast are for general information only, and any reliance on the information provided in this podcast is done at your own risk. We recommend that you obtain your own professional advice in respect to the topics discussed during this podcast.