Level Up with Duayne Pearce
I take on the role of an authoritative voice that fearlessly communicates truths drawn directly from my lived experiences. With a genuine sense of ownership, my insights are free from any hidden agendas – they truly belong to the audience. My stories and journey add remarkable value, the key now lies in harnessing its power effectively to help others.
My purpose is to create a new residential building industry. My mission is to inspire unshakable self-confidence in my colleagues in the industry, empowering them to orchestrate prosperous, enduring, and lucrative businesses that bring exceptional projects to fruition for our clients.
My goal is to foster a deeper comprehension among clients about the identity and functions of builders, redefining their perceptions.
Level Up with Duayne Pearce
Problems With Mould to Building Industry Expert.
Unlock the secrets to building healthier and sustainable homes with our special guest, Stewie Scholten from the Scholten Group.
check out the Scholten Group Here...
scholtengroup.com.au
check out Duayne's other projects here...
QuoteEaze
quoteeaze.com/Free-Offer.html
Live Life Build
livelifebuild.com
D Pearce Constructions
dpearceconstructions.com.au
Head over to revelsaunas.com.au and use the Coupon Code LEVELUP10 on checkout to receive 10% off any Revel products.
We're on a mission to elevate the professionalism of the residential construction industry, and help everyone enjoy building and renovating homes.
Easy to use Quoting software for Builders. Produce professional and accurate proposals. Quickly and accurately measure and markup plans in minutes. Win more jobs and track costs. 21 Day Free Trial.
Head over to Duayne's website here for other podcasts, merch and more...
duaynepearce.com
It's not a nice feeling going to work knowing you're losing money.
Speaker 2:I did it for years, I go no, you've done it, like most tradies have. G'day guys. Welcome back to another episode of Level Up, Australia's number one construction podcast. We are back in the shed this afternoon for another cracking episode, going to jump straight into this one. Today, I've got Stewie Shelton from Shelton Group sitting here with me. This one's been a little while in the making. Today I've got Stewie Shelton from Shelton Group sitting here with me. This one's been a little while in the making. We've tried getting Stewie on a few times. We finally managed to strap him down in the seat. So how are you, mate?
Speaker 1:I'm going well. Dwayne, how are you going?
Speaker 2:Excellent. So for those of you that may not know Stew, go and check him out on Instagram. So the reason I wanted to get Stew on today I met Stu through social media. He's been part of our Live Like Build community, but I love Stu's passion for learning healthier homes, passive homes, and he's got another business that we'll talk about during the podcast. So how's things going, mate?
Speaker 1:Yeah, going well yeah.
Speaker 2:Don't lie.
Speaker 1:Ticking along yeah.
Speaker 2:Don't lie, he's sitting here with a broken back yeah, hurt my back a week ago.
Speaker 1:I fell off a roof about a month ago and got the all clear, but then a week ago I had a bit of a relapse and, yeah, found out I've got a fracture in my vertebrae and just like a bulging disc and a few things like that.
Speaker 2:So yeah, stewie likes to talk things down, so we're here to talk him up today because, uh, he's a very, very knowledgeable um person and I definitely get a lot out of Stewie when I have conversations with him. So, um, look, I'm, I'm just super pumped that you still showed up, like when Shay told me he spoke the other day and you broke your back, fractured your back, and that I was like holy yeah, I thought about I might have to reschedule it, but um, now I'm here, all good well, it takes a while to get on australia's number one construction podcast.
Speaker 2:So luckily you, uh, you kept your spot. But yeah, mate, um you're, you're a pretty shy guy. You, um, you keep to yourself a lot don't you?
Speaker 1:yeah, I think. I don't know if shy is the right word, but it's probably. Uh, I know I don't like to self-promote and, yeah, social media is not real big for me yeah, yeah, yeah, no, we uh.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I want to change. I want to. I want to really sort of talk to people about everything you do today, because I think you've got a lot to offer and, like I said, I definitely the conversations we've had over the years it's probably been what, two years now.
Speaker 1:Maybe longer, because I was in Live Life Build for two years and then I think I finished that up like sort of coming into Christmas last year.
Speaker 2:So December, yeah, yeah yeah, so it's been a while, but, um, and I think before you joined Live Like Bill, we'd communicate a little bit. Yeah, I'm sure we would have yeah, but tell us where the passion's come from, mate, like you're, because you, your family's far. You're a farming background, aren't you? Yeah, so um Stu operates um down from northern New South Wales, beautiful part of the world, and you family got a farm down that way as well yeah, we got a couple hundred acres down there where we've got macadamias and cattle.
Speaker 1:yeah, um, and so that's. We all work on that together, but Dad pretty much does most of the work. Yeah, but previous to that we had a smaller acreage where we grew organic fruit and vegetables, and Dad also had a business where he dried a lot of herbs for other producers and so I don't know. So I know, thinking about this earlier, but probably from about 12 I started growing vegetables for myself and I was selling them to organic shops in byron bay and employed a few of the kids around the area and had them picking vegetables for me well now, I know that's bloody awesome, but that's that sort of says a lot about the direction you're taking, because you you're really interested in the healthier homes and building better quality homes for people, aren't you?
Speaker 1:yeah, and I think everything's so connected as far as like a healthy home and health and the food we eat, healthy lifestyle, healthy lifestyle and, yeah, where our food comes from and yeah, that whole.
Speaker 2:It just really goes hand in hand, I think yeah, so when had you always had a bit of a passion for building things? Like, where did the passion to become a builder? Or, like I've never actually asked you like, were you a carpenter?
Speaker 1:Yeah, I'm a carpenter by trade. Um, I did homeschooling through high school and so I got to the end of year 10 and mum was just sick of me being at home and she gave me two options. She said you can either go back to school, do year 11 and 12, or go get a job. And going back to school wasn't an option. So I went and got an apprenticeship, a carpentry apprenticeship and uh, yeah, it suited me. I really love building and I just love the detail and just doing things really well. And it's a bit of a two-edged sword sometimes because, yeah, sometimes you can just be too over-pedantic with things and just.
Speaker 2:But I've learnt now where to let some things go and you know I think, yeah, you can only when you've priced a job like you've got to price it to do it right in the first place. But I'm the same mate, we still price it to do it right in the first place. I'm the same mate, we still do it now. There's still definitely things that happen in our jobs that I just won't walk away from. I know it costs me money, but I know I've priced my jobs correctly and there's enough money in there to move around and cover little things here and there.
Speaker 2:But that's a reflection on who you are and your ethics and all those types of things. I think when you do little things like that, the clients know.
Speaker 1:They pick up on it. Yeah, I think so too. A little saying is like the how does it go again? Something like the standard you accept is the standard you set.
Speaker 2:So yeah, I think within our business of the building that we we have a pretty high standard and yeah, like to do things well yeah, just going back, because it's a super common theme in our industry, like, exactly like I was, exactly like you just said, like hi, to see what was nice, cool, but like hated school and basically got to a point where my old boys told me the same same words. So, yeah, you got two choices you get back to school, you get a job yeah, and for you, why was? Why was school not an option?
Speaker 1:uh, just because for the last three years I'd been surfing every day and riding motorbikes and driving cars around the farm and so like just the thought of going back to school was just like nah, it's not happening. Yeah, and like I think I did notice that when I went to tafe and was doing my trade, like there was a lot of things that I didn't learn. I wouldn't say I missed out, but I remember when we started getting in all to the trigonometry and doing like the advanced roofing stuff, like I had to learn all that math stuff. But like when you need to learn something, it's pretty easy to pick it up and you learn it quickly.
Speaker 2:And when you're learning it, because it's helping something you're interested in.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's right, and like it's still with me today, like I can do all that stuff.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah. The reason I like to talk about this sort of thing is because there's a lot of people in our industry and I talk about this because I used to do it myself like you. You tell yourself you're not good enough, or you're not smart enough, or you can't have this, you can't do that, and all those types of things, and yeah reality is what you tell yourself manifests and that's what it becomes.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I'm a big believer in that.
Speaker 2:But with the schooling system it's just this one size fits all, and I believe there are so many people in our industry tradies, whatever architects, designers, builders, laborers, people that work in hardware stores or forestry or whatever. There's a lot of people out there that shouldn't be ashamed that they didn't finish school or they stopped telling themselves they weren't good enough, or they can't spell or they can't write or all this type of shit that I told myself for years. Have a crack at it and you just clearly show when you are very interested or passionate about something.
Speaker 2:it's very easy to learn what you need to do to be good at that yeah, yeah, 100 percent.
Speaker 1:Um, yeah, I'm a big believer in like that sort of internal thoughts that you tell yourself and then the way they manifest and, um, yeah, I just think, yeah, anyone can do whatever they want, like there's just so much opportunity to go whatever direction you want, to just put your mind to it and you can.
Speaker 2:You can do it, yeah, 100. So you got your apprenticeship, obviously, um, you worked through your apprenticeship. Like how long after your apprenticeship did you? Or when was it that you realized you wanted to be a builder?
Speaker 1:uh, so I started doing my cert for in the last year of my apprenticeship, so sort of six months out of my time I'd was finished that, and then I think I had to do two years of supervising.
Speaker 1:So I don't know, maybe within two years after my apprenticeship I had my builder's license yeah, yeah, and then um yeah, I've sort of I did jobs early on in my my sort of career, I suppose where I lost a lot of money and then I've gone back contracting and working for other builders and then I've had times off where I've just done farm work and, yeah, always having the trade there and going back to building because you don't make much money farming.
Speaker 2:Well, look, I don't know. I've had family farmers in my family, but I think it's very similar to building. They're great farmers, but farming's't like farming's a business.
Speaker 1:Yeah, 100%, You've got to and it's like building?
Speaker 2:I don't think people run.
Speaker 1:A lot of people don't run their farm as a business. It's just a bit of a hobby and this is what we do.
Speaker 2:It's exactly the same as building. Yeah, I don't want to sound negative towards my dad.
Speaker 1:I don't know if he'll listen to this, but he can't even turn a computer on. He's hopeless with all that sort of stuff and he wouldn't even. Yeah, he's got no idea. He just gets up in the morning and jumps on the tractor and cuts grass and rounds cattle off At the end of the day.
Speaker 2:That's how I was. I was a chippy and I was a builder. That was like that. I used to tell myself I hate the computer, I can't use it, I can't turn it on. I'm still not very good at it but, I can do what I need to do yeah you can do what you need to do.
Speaker 1:To run the business.
Speaker 2:But what's your thoughts? I can't really say 100%, but I feel that if someone had it because I knew I always wanted to be a builder and I always wanted to at some stage of my life had a farm as well, but I think it it would be the same whether someone, a young person, wants to be a farmer or a builder, or doctor or have a cafe or whatever. But I feel that if someone had come to me at school and said for you to be a great carpenter, you need to understand maths, you need to have a basic understanding of English, you need to know a bit of accounting, I possibly would have maybe looked at it differently. But, like in my mind, I just kept telling myself I just need to do shop a and b, woodwork, metalwork, graphics, mass. Yeah, happy days.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I'm gonna be a chippy and a builder, yeah yeah, I'd agree with that too, and I think, um, you, I think there's a lot of skills other than just the practical side of building that you need to have a successful business, and that's the side that you don't get taught at TAFE or even during um, like your CERT4, like you don't really talk about how to run a successful business and I suppose, like doing the live life build with you guys, like we go into all that stuff and we start looking at like okay, like what do I need to know about my figures, what are my overheads and how do I calculate that sort of stuff and what like profit margins do I need to have a successful business? And so a lot of that has just changed, changed things for me and, um, just understanding what you need to charge, like it's, it's probably a lot more than what people realize.
Speaker 2:But how much like it's a massive confidence builder, isn't it, when you know that every job that you win, you're making money.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Like. You've priced it right, you've covered it. You've worked all the costs out. You've covered your overheads. You put your company profit on there. You've included, you've got your salary work into it. Like as long as the world doesn't end and we don't have covered again. Like, yeah, you're um, like you can just be confident in knowing that if I do this in this period of time and I use the materials I've allowed for all my events are covered. Yeah, I'm going to have some money in the bank.
Speaker 2:Yeah, no, it's a good feeling, it's a lot better way to go to work than going to work every day.
Speaker 1:It's not a nice feeling going to work knowing you're losing money.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I did it for years. I go no, you've done it, like most tradies have.
Speaker 1:I think one of the big things was just like, profit's not a dirty word, you need it to be sustainable. I'm much more confident now saying to people look like, yeah, like I am making money and like I've got to make money on your job, your business.
Speaker 2:you're running a business, that's right, yeah like um, and the reality is, with any trades or building based business, like especially building, you have to make money because you, you've got to be around yeah like it's not.
Speaker 2:Like you just can do a job and walk away from it. Like there might be some maintenance to do on it or clients might have issues with a warranty on a product, or like there's so many things that can come up. Like you need to make sure your builder's making money and running a business so that if there is anything down the track, or even you want to build again like you want them to still be there. Yeah, 100. It's absolutely crazy. Like I am so confident now with like everything that I'm putting out there, what live like bill's doing, what quote he's doing, like just the shit I put out there on my socials. Like if we can get every tradie and builder actually understanding what it takes to run their business making money, which, to begin with, will put their prices up, but at the end of the day, building prices should come down because all the money that's getting lost from builders going broke is getting worked into the cost that we pay for everything that we do our insurances, our materials, labor.
Speaker 2:Yeah, like everybody has a cost built in to cover the cost of every builder and trade that fails yeah, yeah, I'd agree with that.
Speaker 1:It's crazy yeah yeah, the um.
Speaker 2:so how like you did some contracting um, then you went out on your own, like when did the so the people that taught you and you did some contracting and you went out on your own, like when did the so the people that taught you and you did your time with? Was there any passion there for like the better quality homes, the healthier home, or is that something that's come since you've been on your?
Speaker 1:own Definitely always worked in more like high-end homes. So, like I remember, for the last 18 months of my apprenticeship, I was just working on one build and, um, it's a long time, yeah, it's a long time, and I think, even back then, like it was probably like a five or six million dollar build. So like going back, oh, 15 years, like that's a lot of money. Um, so, yeah, there was always. I don't remember, when I started with that builder, he's like I don't care how long things take, I just want you to do them the best you can. And so that just suited me because, um, that's that's who I am and that's my personality and I just want to get things right. Yeah, um, and so, working in that environment and that attitude, I feel like I was able to, um, become a good tradesman and really develop my skills and, um, yes, I really, yeah, really thankful for that opportunity and being able to work with that builder.
Speaker 2:It's incredible, hey, so he well, fingers crossed. He knew his numbers, but, like I say the exact same thing to my team, like near enough's not good enough. If anyone like forget about the money, forget about the time. Like everything you do, do it right.
Speaker 1:Yeah, which is cheaper in the long run, because as soon as you have to go back and fix something, that's expensive.
Speaker 2:The old-fashioned way of just yelling, screaming at people on site rush, rush, rush. Well, firstly, it's all driven at money and fear. And fear because the people, the builders doing the jobs, are trying to do everything for the least possible amount they can because they know, before they've built the job, that they've built the job, that they've already screwed their prices and they're chasing their tail, or they haven't made money on the last job. So they think that the more they scream and yell at the people on this job to get the work done, they're going to get some money in the bank.
Speaker 1:And you don't get the best out of people like that, yeah.
Speaker 2:It's something I'm really passionate about, or getting more and more passionate about now and really really taking a big focus in my team. Like we've had a few struggles over the last few years, um, with team members and just there is a lot of like we young fellas that get treated old school yeah, and I know I was. I put my hand up like I was bad for it for a long time and, as we just said, like reality is yelling and screaming at things doesn't help anybody at all. Like all it does is make everyone on site pissed off, afraid yeah, fear, anxiety, not want to come to work.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think communication in all areas of life is just like massive. Keep like good communication at work so that you build good relationships. Good communication with your clients so you build trust. Yeah, good communication with your family, like it's just communication should be a subject at school.
Speaker 1:I I agree yeah, no, it's, and this is the funny, the thing is, and I hope people that listen are Sorry to interrupt, but I feel like we're in a society now where we don't like having hard or difficult conversations. We just try to avoid them. But there's a lot to learn having those conversations and they're not to be like feared, yeah yeah.
Speaker 2:You got to communicate, you be like feared.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, yeah, you got to communicate, you got to talk.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I feel like for everybody that's listening, I hope people take this seriously.
Speaker 2:Like I bang on about it all the time but you cannot invest enough money and time into yourself, like I feel like we're so so, like we're bought up, like you must go to school, you, you must go to university, you must get a trade, you must get a career, and then you start that career or whatever it may be, and we're expected, or majority of people just go through day to day living their life, dealing with all the shit, putting up with all the problems, not making the money they want to make, yeah, not having the lifestyle they want to have, not having the family they want to have, not having relationships they want to have, yeah, and I just like now, with everything I'm doing, I'm like I've spent hundreds and hundreds of thousands of dollars on on training.
Speaker 2:Like we're only in april this year, four months, and I'm already up to over 40 000 this year, but that will come back tenfold like the more, and I just I hope everyone listening like just I will continue spending money educating, coaching, mentoring till the day I die now like I just like and I feel but what?
Speaker 1:what started that for you? Like what? Just seeing the?
Speaker 2:improvement. Yeah, like just seeing how much everything changes and the reason I'm talking about this because you, you touched on it your relationships. Yeah, let's face it like relationships are the most important things in our lives, whether it's with our clients, with our family, with our kids, with our partners, with our mates. Like relationships are huge.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and when you think about it, most relationships fail because of communication yeah, I agree yeah and same deal communication with clients, communication with kids, communication like clients get the shits and jobs don't go to plan, or people or builders lose money. Yeah, when, if they had a set clear expectations, listen, like. I think the other big part of communication is listening. Yeah, these days, everyone's so like. I learned this off Rick Rushton. He's got an incredible book. He's a Melbourne guy. Yeah, I think he was in Live, like Bill, when you were there.
Speaker 1:Yeah, okay.
Speaker 2:He's got a book called the oh shit, I've gone blank, shay, you'll have to look it up. I think it's called the power of connection, yeah or something, but he talks a lot about um. When people are having conversations, the person they're talking to has already got a reaction before they've actually even taken the time to listen to the words that are coming out of the mouth yeah because we're all living such a fast paced lifestyle.
Speaker 2:Yeah, but like, if you listen to your clients, you listen to your, your kids, your partners, your mates, all those types of things and then you communicate back to them like that's, that's probably my big biggest addiction to it now. Like I know the more I improve, the better I communicate yeah um, and it's something I'm trying to yeah, the power connection yeah, power connection. Rick rushton yeah, great, great, great.
Speaker 1:It's on audible, great book um yeah, like, even like talking now, like I'm thinking, oh yeah, no, where am I going to go next? And that one thing I thought of is like I've had a job go bad, and it was when the communication broke down and we lost trust with the client, and like it went bad within a couple of weeks and I couldn't regain their trust.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah and that, and it is something as simple as that, like if you and again I think it comes back like we're, we're good tradies, we're good builders, but something starts to go a little bit off track. We're not taught to communicate. We're good tradies, we're good builders, but something starts to go a little bit off track. We're not taught to communicate, we're not taught to um, to resolve problems and all those types of things.
Speaker 2:So all of a sudden, like this and a lot of time, like some of the biggest disputes in building have started from the tiniest thing, and because it starts from that tiniest thing, like once, I feel like the thing is like once a client digs in, yeah, then everything's shit oh yeah like and something that starts from such a small thing all of a sudden, like they might have been wanting to, just to talk to you about I don't know an extra fitting or fixture or paint color or something, yeah, and just because you haven't taken the time to have a conversation, communicate, listen, resolve it, talk to them about it, all of a sudden everything's a problem.
Speaker 2:You did this yeah, the other day, or you did this a few weeks ago. You never told us about that, or you've charged us for that and you shouldn't have. Like yeah, and before you know it, the whole job's just a shit for it and you're not getting paid. And then those clients are telling us like yeah, and it's just a horrible.
Speaker 1:Um, it's just a horrible position to be in for everyone, yeah, like for the client, for the builder, and it's just yeah.
Speaker 2:Just yeah, it doesn't need to go there but I like that you touched on and that's why I think I've kept this part of the conversation going, because your relationships with everybody your mum, your dad, your partner, your kids it's all around communication.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, 100%. And for me, the last I don't know 12 months, I've realised that don't be afraid to have difficult conversations and just it's uncomfortable. But sometimes you just have to sit with that uncomfortable feeling and express that and have those conversations with people and I know every time I've done it's always been a good outcome.
Speaker 2:Yeah it's funny, isn't it? Like those those nights that you can't sleep, or you're getting worked up in the morning because you know that you've got to go to site to have a talk with a whatever a contractor, employee or client and you're just you're making yourself feel sick in the guts, yeah, and like literally within five minutes of a decent conversation, it's, it's all yeah, happy days yeah, and you can work yourself up sometimes over the the silliest little things yeah, and it's yeah, I've lost one of my good mates.
Speaker 1:We had a disagreement and we couldn't resolve it and, like I know, it's just a real shame that it got to that like and you know I I'd like to. I apologized at the time and wanted to talk about it, but he wasn't prepared to, and it's just a real shame, you know.
Speaker 2:Yeah yeah, but I guess, to go back to your question, mate and I sort of answered it before but that's that's why I'm addicted to it and that's why I think like we're not taught it at school. So I think that's why I'm so passionate about it now. I'm just so glad I've figured it out. Like, at the end of the day, we, I don't know everything, you don't know everything. Like even a coach you go to doesn't know everything. No, but just a couple of steps ahead of you.
Speaker 2:Really, yeah, but just having someone that is um, like I've been at a jt fox conference the last couple of days and like he just like he was just so valuable what we're learning there.
Speaker 2:But he was basically saying like, show me who's teaching you, show me who's coaching you, and I'll tell you the position you're in. And he's like you will, you will always only be a few steps back from whoever you're associating with. So and it's and like I sounds bad or not, but I feel like for me it goes back to like our teachers, like I think there's like obviously there'd be teachers out there like you and I that are really passionate about our building and they're really passionate about what they do, but there'd also be teachers out there that are like the builders, that or tradies in our industry, that don't put any effort, they're just, they drag their feet all the time, they're constantly having issues and, yeah, they're teaching us. I think I've got every single one of them. Actually, when that's, um, yeah, like I, I know, like when I think back now like there was definitely teachers that, um, like I I know there was a couple of teachers that I really connected with, like they were great yeah but there was definitely teachers that taught me nothing.
Speaker 2:Yeah, like, and I could, like they were, I could tell they hated their job. Like, yeah, um, so they weren't teaching me what I should have been doing.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, I think I don't know if they lost passion for it or they're not passionate about it. I don't know. I think that's a big thing, is yeah?
Speaker 2:So where's Like you're into it now because you've taught yourself. So not only like you've become a builder, but you've taken it next level and like you spent a few years with Live Life Build and got your business running a lot better and then now you've really gone into the um. Like you've done your passive. You're a certified passive house yeah, so if I pass builder um. You've done zara's healthy home course um, and I know you're doing all sorts of other training in that, in that space, aren't you? Yeah?
Speaker 1:yeah, yeah, I'm constantly, um, yeah, researching things and following different people. I'm not involved with any sort of particular training at the moment, but, yeah, just talking to you now, like, oh man, I've got to do something again, like I'm gonna get left behind. But, um, yeah, like I know, I've heard you say it, like you, just you don't know what you don't know, so you need to constantly be like investing in yourself and and and, yeah, just learning, I think yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:Like how can you ever know what's better or what's wrong or what's like just if you're not listening to other people, talking to other people, learning from other people?
Speaker 2:yeah, and questioning things, yeah, yeah, like you and, well, I've done it, done them as well, like I know you're sitting here with you talking to you. Like there's a lot of things that I do in my building business now that are very, very different to how I was taught yeah, yeah and like that and that's across a wide variety. So there's things that I do now that meet building code, that I know when I was taught well, what I was taught doesn't meet building code. Yeah, and then, on top of that, there's things that I do now that I choose to do to offer my clients a better product, because I've done training to learn that possibly some of the standard building codes and standard products aren't really up to scratch.
Speaker 1:Yeah, 100%. Well, for me, like the whole passive house thing come about is I got approached by a client and an architect to build a passive house and I was like the 10th builder that they approached. No one was interested in it. This was probably going back four or five years and at that time I had, like mold in my own place and I was like like why have I got mold, like built this thing so well like you know, why have I got this mold problem and so sort of thinking about this. But like, even back then there was so much misinformation around. And then so I went and did the passive house training which, like, I recommend to everyone. I just feel like it's a real game changer.
Speaker 2:Even if I agree. So I don't at this stage. I don't have any intention of building passive houses, but the knowledge I gained from that course, yeah 100%.
Speaker 1:I don't think you need to build passive houses, because it's really just. Passive house is just good building science and good building practice taken to the extreme. But not every build needs to be a passive house, but a lot of the methodology and the principles you can still incorporate into a normal build, yeah, and so then when I did this passive house course, like everything just started clicking and I was like, oh, that's, that's why I've got a mold problem and oh, that's why can you look for the listeners?
Speaker 2:can you give some examples?
Speaker 1:well, just like I used a foil wrap I used a foil wrap on my place and I reckon I used a um, a non-permeable one, so it didn't have any holes punched in it. I probably just use a soil, a solid aluminium wrap.
Speaker 2:Because that's all you're doing In my mind.
Speaker 1:I was like why would I want to buy this wrap that's got all these holes in it?
Speaker 2:Is that what you've always used?
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's what we would have always used and this would have been going back 10 years ago or more, 12 years maybe.
Speaker 2:And then I just put colour bond cladding straight on the aluminium wrap and just installed aluminium windows and I wondered why I was getting problems and like of course you're going to get problems when you build like that and um, so for people that listening that like we can say, of course, because we've done the course and we know that, yeah, you've got to have ventilation, the house has got to be able to breathe, but it's also any moisture that gets trapped has got to be able to get in and out. There's so much to it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, there's a lot to it, but it's very simple at the same time. You only need to understand a few key things and then you can start thinking for yourself and like, oh, okay, well, maybe this isn't a good way to build, and it's. You only need to know enough to start questioning things and start thinking is there a better way, or is this the right way to be doing something? And like, we've always got vapor drive in our building, so vapor drives always going from warm to cool. That's, that's just physics. So in the winter time, you build up indoor humidity and vapor inside your building and it's always going from warm indoor environment to the outside. And when it hits a cold condensing surface, which is your aluminium foil, you get a condensation problem, which then can lead to a mold problem.
Speaker 1:And so, just like, it's that simple, it's that simple, yeah, so just understanding that key concept, you can start to think about how moisture might travel through a wall construction, wall construction or a roof construction, and and then you can start thinking about that. And then, and then you get to the whole thing of like we're selling the proclimate membranes and that's another part of our business, but then vapor permeability, and then like okay, so proclimbers technology is a monolithic membrane and other competitors products are a microporous membrane and there's some differences there. But, like I tell people to build in the most, I don't know if I say the most vape open way possible, but you should be thinking about these things and how you're going to put your wall together.
Speaker 2:It's like I want to dive into a little bit, because the whole reason this podcast exists is to create a new building industry better quality homes, people running better businesses, and so just to dive into a little bit about what you just touched on, I like, yeah, my whole apprenticeship, like we put building paper on, like you you'd smash it on, like we, uh, we'd either have full tags or we'd have a stapler. And like even the boss, like everything was rush, rush, rush. Like I remember like you'd miss it, miss a stud with the we had one of those I know what they call.
Speaker 2:Like the big slacker things and, like you, you might miss a stud a a bit, or it might be on the edge of where a ply bracing sheet is and it tears the paper. Yeah, and I know there's a lot of houses that well, we were using shit full to start with, but it wasn't installed right.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And then I sort of it was. It wasn't even like I didn't even look, look into it, but I just knew when I started building I wanted to do everything better. Yeah, and so my thing for a long time was just installing the paper neatly. Yeah, and so I was still using a shit product. Yeah, but it was getting installed better.
Speaker 2:And like for a long time, and because of the way I was taught, like the, the paper went up to the top of the bricks like a lot of time at the top, three, four hundred, depending on the roof pitch, 500 to the top plate was wasn't done like that was in the feet space.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and then so I remember like banging onto my team like we got it, this is gonna be perfect. Like it needs to go up to the top plate, everything needs to be tight, I don't want paper flapping around the wind and um. And so I thought I was getting better and better. But in reality is I was probably actually creating more problems because I was, I was sealing the moisture behind the foil, shit. Yeah, and then like only whenever it was like I don't know, it's probably getting close to four months ago now and we I got you up to do a training day with my boys and, um, I still kick myself like. On that training day you made me realize that the australian standard says that you got to wrap your paper around your window and door openings and I felt like an absolute fucking idiot.
Speaker 1:Yeah, like here I am oh, I don't know how many builders would install their windows first and just run their um, their sarking into the windows, like, like I did that, my whole building, yeah, my whole apprenticeship, my whole career like I.
Speaker 2:You rent like we paved the whole building. Then you come along with standing off, you cut the windows out and you put the window in, yeah, like it was never wrapped around the the edges of the studs and the seal and the head and yeah um.
Speaker 2:So yeah, there you go, hope you've hope people listen. But then even, um, like trades come along, plumbers and sparkies, like do their roughing, put holes in it everywhere, yeah, like who cares? And then the like on a brick veneer house, they run all their shit on the outside of the paper and put holes and tack it on everywhere and then the brickie comes along and hits it with his trowel and nails. All these bloody stops to it. It's just a shit fight.
Speaker 1:Yeah, but again, it's a challenge. But then it comes back to educating people why they should be doing it and the reasons why we're doing this. Yeah, like it's not enough just to say I don't want you putting holes in it, because then they're just like why like why?
Speaker 2:what's the communication thing? Yeah, look so good. So communication like. I actually had a meeting with my team on Monday. I got back from three weeks holiday and talking to them about the communication thing and and exactly like you've just touched on. It's all good to stand in front of someone and try and communicate and tell them what, why you want something done or what you want them to do yeah. But if they don't know the why, yeah, they're gonna be like fuck, he's just an idiot, he just he just he just wants it neat like they don't know the reasoning behind it and for me, like whenever we're doing any training with the proclimer, stuff like proclime is a good product.
Speaker 1:I think it's the best, but there's other products on the market that are comparable and I'm like I try to tell people why they should be using either a proclimer or another comparable product because, geez, we're gonna have to get proclimer or another comparable product.
Speaker 2:Because, geez, we're gonna have to get proclimer to sponsor this podcast, because we're talking about a lot in the last few months I would much rather see someone use another good membrane then and install it properly than than a foil wrap.
Speaker 1:you know, and yeah, and there's reasons why you should be doing it. And it comes back to air tightness. You want that for energy efficiency, and then you want the vapor permeability, so you're not trapping any moisture in your construction.
Speaker 2:Yeah. So just again to educate people, because I've only become aware of this a lot more in the last 12 months and the exercise you did when you were here training us with the um, what was it? A cup of hot water steam, so all houses have moisture yeah and what we've I know. This is how I try and explain if. Look, if anyone thinks I'm wrong, send us a comment, shout out, we'll fix it. But, um, basically, over the course of the building industry, like everything, continues to get better.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And so some items that have got better is obviously the building wraps we're using, the types of claddings we're using, but like windows, for example, like windows have continued to improve better quality extrusions, better quality seals, yeah, and basically, without knowing it, we've created more airtight boxes yeah and so that's all really good and well and, as stewie said, we'll create a more efficient home, but if the airtight home isn't dealt with correctly in regards to moisture, yeah, you're actually creating a huge problem yeah, 100 because then you're.
Speaker 2:So. Every house has moisture in it, whether it's from so humans like us, us as humans. I forget what the numbers is, you oh?
Speaker 1:it's probably six or seven liters a day per person.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so is it like the like? An average four person family has over 220 liters of water a week, yeah, something like that yeah, um, and that is, that's just from breathing perspiration, yeah, and then on top of that, you, you've got steam from cooking, you've got showers.
Speaker 1:Yeah, if you've got teenage girls, you might have 400 liters a week.
Speaker 2:I'll vouch for that, because mine are getting there and they don't mind the shower for 20 minutes, yeah, um. So yeah, like we've sort of.
Speaker 1:So if you're not, if you, if this stuff's not on your radar and you're just installing these products, you're putting it has to be on your radar now the way the code's going like, builders are now responsible that you're not going to create a mold and condensation problem yeah, well, that's a good point.
Speaker 2:So you actually don't have a choice now so you don't have a choice with the changes that come in. Uh, what was it?
Speaker 1:last october 2022.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so last october and then there's more coming out, uh, throughout 2024, like every change that's coming out in the building code now relates to a healthier home.
Speaker 1:Yeah, like so and yeah, molding conversation Because the correlation between a healthy home and an energy efficient home. They go hand in hand.
Speaker 2:And I actually think this is something that is like we're just on seeing it now and it's just going to start taking off, because now, um, who's the? Uh, there's a. Is it jordan peterson? I think, um, the guy on social media that talks a lot about science and he's like a psychologist or something, isn't he? Yeah, but like is he? I think he might be the one that's come out now. Is it his daughter or someone in the family? They've attributed her sickness? I might have this completely wrong.
Speaker 1:What to a mold-related illness or something?
Speaker 2:Well, I don't know if it's to mold, but to the home. Yeah, okay, and look, it might be. I'm sure it's him. I'll go back on socials.
Speaker 1:What are we inside? Like 90% of our lives are indoors.
Speaker 2:Like it's him, I'll go back. What are we inside? Like 90 of our lives are in indoors. But like, if you've got someone at that level like he's pretty famous on social media, if you've got someone at that level, she might be able to go back through socials and find it. But, um, he did a story or a video or something not that long ago talking about it. So, because the reality is now they're starting to see that because of the time frame of time we spend in our homes, our homes are actually having an impact on our health yeah and like when you get to that level, the government starts to take things seriously yeah, yeah, 100.
Speaker 1:I think the government knows already. There's some people you know, like. You've got Jesse Clark who works for Proclama. He's advising the government about this stuff. And then you've got, like Mark Dewsbury, who did that scoping study on condensation, like 2015. Like they know this stuff.
Speaker 2:Come on, mate. You said you didn't like schooling, you didn't learn stuff.
Speaker 1:Like he's advising the government about this stuff, like it's facts. Facts, yeah, it's always. But you always get pushback, don't you?
Speaker 2:yeah, that's what I was going to say. Like you've let's face it as much as people they won't like it like our industry is led by the volume guys. Yeah, like, just smashing out homes at affordable prices for average people. Yeah, so when you've got that enormous market, it's a big shift.
Speaker 1:Yeah, like if, can you imagine if, like all those volume guys have now got to start using better wraps and educating people on how to install them correctly and doing like if it, yeah, you're doing blower door tests and yeah, well, yeah, if you start, if you start having to do blower door tests and stuff, but like I think the pushback comes again out of a fear of not actually understanding. You know, like it's not hard to implement these changes.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you might only have to change a few things and and have a massive outcome on the performance of the build yeah, we're, um, like I'm talking to you at the moment, like we're going to get a few of our past projects, um get the blow door test done. Yeah, because I think this is something that all builders and trades because, let's face it, it's not just a builder Trades need to be aware of this stuff.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I tell people that buy stuff with me get me back at the end or before you do your pre-plaster and I'll run a blower door. No one's taken me up on it yet. But to feel what a blower door is and to feel the air leakage and all the areas where it's really easy to address, like it's pretty. You can learn a lot from a simple little thing like that.
Speaker 2:Well, I want to know, because for me, like passive house is easy. Like passive house, you've got basically a run sheet and a set of rules and if you follow those rules, you should meet the requirements yeah um, for the blower door test, yeah, um. So for those listening that aren't really aware, like to be a passive house, you've got to have a minimum, minimum amount of air changes per minute.
Speaker 1:So you've got to meet um 0.6 air changes per hour at 50 pascals.
Speaker 2:Oh sorry, maximum isn't it? That's maximum, yeah, maximum. So if you go over that you don't get certified pascals.
Speaker 1:It's a fail. It's a fail, yeah.
Speaker 2:But and there'll be a lot of people out there that aren't aware of this there is actually part of the code that says every house must have a maximum amount of air changes.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that says every house must have a maximum amount of air changes. Yeah, I think it's 10.
Speaker 2:Yeah, everyone keeps telling me differently, so I think 15. Some people say 10, some say 12, some say 15.
Speaker 1:I thought it was 10. I could be wrong. I thought that was like a Nathas thing that it's got to be under 10 air changes per hour.
Speaker 2:Yeah. So for me, the reality is I don't know what I need to do to get to that, yeah, and so my theory at the moment is if I get you to. So I've talked to a few of our clients we've sort of got it. Um, we're trying to get it organized, Um, they're acceptable to it.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:I've explained to them that it it possibly could open up a bit of a can of worms. Yeah, for me and them. Yeah, but if I don't, it's like I talk about with my numbers and stuff all the time If I don't have the data. Like so, if we do a renovation, how do I know what air changes I'm going to get to, if I don't know that what we're doing is achieving?
Speaker 1:Yeah, so, like 100%, you've got to know your data, don't you? Yeah?
Speaker 2:So if I can do a few older houses, that's going to give me a bit of a baseline. And then the other thing that we're sort of considering, especially on renovations, is like getting yourself in to do it before we do any work.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:So that we've got a baseline? Yeah, getting yourself in to do it before we do any work? Yeah, so that we've got a baseline? Yeah, and then we do another one at the end and we can see what we've done the improvement it's made?
Speaker 1:Yeah, 100%.
Speaker 2:You obviously do. You think that's a good idea.
Speaker 1:Oh yeah, for sure, Definitely.
Speaker 2:Not just because you have the blower door test and you charge for it, but to me it's the only way I can know, because, apart from Passive House, there is no code, regulation, australian standard building, anything that says if you install these windows, if you do this insulation, if you do this wrap, if you do this front door, if you do this door seal, you will get this amount of air changes.
Speaker 1:And see, I can't even tell you that.
Speaker 2:Like.
Speaker 1:I don't know, I haven't done enough blower doors with different construction methodology to be able to tell you, yeah, and like the windows, like from manufacturer to manufacturer, like what their seals are like, yeah, Like I think it's something that if man, if you're a builder that listens to this podcast and you are not listening, if you're not taking this shit seriously, you need to get onto it well, it's a pathway to um compliance. Now blow a door. It's in the code. Now you can use it as pathway to get you like your basics.
Speaker 2:Yes, new south wales because I I don't know hopefully I don't open up a can of worms with this, but like reality is, you could, whether it, whether it's your current client or you build a house. That client lives there for two years. They move out, someone else moves in and then, for whatever reason and you never know in this crazy world, they maybe, they get sick, maybe something happens, and all of a sudden they talk to someone and someone says, hey, your house should have this and your house should do this, and they get you in to do a blood or test and it's nowhere near what is meant to be. Yeah, there could be some. Come like, you could be made, come back and oh yeah, you could be liable for it.
Speaker 1:Tested one or maybe going back, I don't know when it doesn't matter really when it's. But yeah, like the, the client was hoping to get a high performing maybe not passive house. He was the client was actually a certified passive house trades person. He'd done the course himself and he might get himself in trouble here. But like he got a builder said like this is what I want, bought all the proclama membranes yeah, did it all, delivered all the product. And we're talking like an expensive build here, like a 12 million dollar build, like holy shit expensive. We went up the day before the client moved into the home so that it was finished, just putting the finishing touches on, and we couldn't even get the house up to any pressure where we could measure it. What it was, that leaky. How does that happen? Having a builder and trades people who aren't invested in the project, not worried about the outcome and don't understand what they're trying to achieve?
Speaker 2:so it doesn't matter even if you're using proclimate products, if they're not installed properly or any, but something's really like really bad there because like you, you can, at the end of the day, like it's proven, like the guys down um outlier and uh, Davey's doing it, Like they're, they're getting um, they're meeting passive air standards. I don't think they've had any certified yet with plasterboard, Like cause I've come up with this system that they I think they still put that, they still put wraps on.
Speaker 1:Yeah well, plasterboard's airtight.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so I'm just trying to figure this out. If you can't even get the house to build up pressure, fuck me, it must have some holes in it.
Speaker 1:Maybe there was a door open we didn't know about. No, like we double-checked it and we were on the phone to like John Barrett up here in Brisbane and like trying to work out I don't blow it or get. We thought we were doing something wrong, yeah, but we couldn't get it up to pressure and we were walking around and you could just feel the air leakage everywhere, like it's just everywhere because I know like one thing we've always um been told from like sorry, but like the, the disappointment on the client's face, because the client engaged us, not the builder.
Speaker 1:The client engaged us and he was hoping to get to like. We said to him, like well, what are you hoping to get to? And he's like, oh, I'd really like to get to one. One air change per hour would be like great, couldn't even get.
Speaker 2:Couldn't even get a number and that's like that's insane because like you can get 35, 40, like you can get a number, and that's insane because you can get 35, 40, you can get a bad reading.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you can get a bad reading when I say we couldn't get a number. We couldn't get a number on the actual manometer to get a reading. I think if we took all the information back and put it through the software we could get a reading. I think we did. In the end it was like 20 something. Yeah, like not good at all.
Speaker 2:Yeah yeah. It's unbelievable Because, like a lot of we've got a lot of feedback over the years, like for a long time now, probably for eight or ten years, like we've had so many clients come to us that want to live in a more comfortable home and, um, like we sort of got started installing insulation ourselves and doing a better job of that and even just that, like I've learned so much about insulation yeah um in the last year.
Speaker 2:But like putting the and and again we're using, using shit foil, back stuff, yeah, but like doing the wraps better, installation, installing the insulation better. Our plasters have always done a good job. Like we're anal on our plastering, but one thing we've always done at the ends of our jobs, like I just believe it does a far better finish, is like we go around and silicon all the skirtings to tiles or timber or whatever.
Speaker 1:And we like around silicon all the skirtings to, yeah, tiles or timber or whatever, yeah, um. And we look see, I think if you're doing that already, you'll get a, you'll get a pretty tight.
Speaker 2:Well, I'm worried that some of my house is going to be too tight, yeah, and then I'm going to come into the trouble that if they're under four, is it under four. You've got to well, I think it's like three to five.
Speaker 1:You start thinking about it, but under three you're required to have mechanical ventilation.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so I've got a couple of jobs that I'm concerned we're going to have to put ventilation into.
Speaker 1:Yeah, okay.
Speaker 2:And one of them is I spoke to the architect during the design. Like I know, the products we've used on it are used on passive air.
Speaker 1:Is that the CLT project?
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that one's going to be tight.
Speaker 2:It's LT project. Yeah, yeah, that one's going to be tight. It's going to be tight, yeah, um, but yeah, we'll see how. Like we've already that one's already the conversation started. We've been talking the architect talking to the client we've we've talked to is it Siebel? Um? Oh, stiebel, yeah um, about the mechanical ventilation stuff. So we're going to get a great outcome, but and are they the clients?
Speaker 1:have they commented on like anything like oh, there's condensation, so this stuffy.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so this has come up, so there's a few things going on. Like the, the it's basically a holiday home, yeah, so it's not getting left open, and like it's on the coast, like if they're there, the whole house is open. It's not an issue. But the house is the reality is it's getting locked up for days or weeks or whatever at a time. Yeah, and I know, like I just went back to do my 12 monthly checkup and, um, I'm concerned about a bit of discoloring in some of the crt paneling and at the back of the house, in the garage, which is completely sealed up yeah when I got on a little ladder and put my hand up it was, it had a bit of condensation a bit of moisture.
Speaker 1:Did you test the moisture with the moisture meter anywhere? Can you see the CLT panel? Yeah, yeah, okay, be interesting to test it.
Speaker 2:See what it is well when you're there, mate you'll be able to do all that for me that's um, yeah, so it started the conversation and, like the, before I even got to that, like the owners, um, gave me access to the house, they weren't there and as soon as I opened the front door, like you could just tell that the house isn't breathing yeah, okay um, so I know that one.
Speaker 2:We're going to have to do some ventilation and we've we've talked to the client about it. Everyone, everyone sort of knows what's going on and I think it'll be a great education like we'll liaise with the architect and the owner on that one. We'll come up with a great solution. It's a fantastic architect, so they're I'm sure they'll be on board with the knowledge we'll all go and like if you got a good client, like you're going to learn something that's sort of where I'm at with all this stuff, because I I'll actually go back to what I was saying.
Speaker 2:So, with the silicon, like it comes back to me being a perfectionist and always going above and beyond.
Speaker 2:But one of the so we, we've done the floors for years.
Speaker 2:When I first started building and then I started getting the shits like we're doing a lot of rendered house, and then we did a lot of cool houses and like I couldn't stand, like with aluminium windows and the timber reveals on them on the insides, like because the fix it, the jams are fixed to the aluminium four, five, six, seven hundred, eight hundred centers, so your jam's not hard to the aluminium.
Speaker 2:And I went after it was all painted, all nice and tidy, like I couldn't stand all these stupid little, yeah, like might only been half a millimeter, a millimeter, but I just I couldn't stand, yeah, seeing all this shit everywhere. So then we started doing the aluminium to timber jam on the inside. And then, when we're doing rendering, we started doing outside and yeah, so I know we've built a lot of houses that are super tight, yeah, um, but, and some of the feedback we've always got from our clients is our houses are so comfortable. Yeah, but now knowing everything that I know, that's probably created a few issues. Some of those houses have probably got some condensation in them.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it'd be interesting to have a look at them, for sure, yeah, well most of all of our jobs we've been back to since we finished.
Speaker 2:like I, quite often like we do a 12 month check and we stay in contact with our clients, so quite often I've been back just to check on things I like. I enjoy going back to past jobs to see what we're doing is doing.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:If that makes sense, yeah and yeah, there's nothing that stood out.
Speaker 1:I've never seen any yeah, mold or bad condensation or anything, but the problem is you can't see in the walls. Yeah, you can't see in the walls. Yeah, but like, even that is like we had a lot of people like say, like why would you want an airtight home? Or like why is mechanical ventilation necessary? And it's like well, if homeowners knew how to operate a house, then you could probably do away with mechanical ventilation yeah, because that's really important, isn't it?
Speaker 1:and that's reality is, people do not know how to live in a house yeah, I, I don't think they understand the importance of you know air in the house out and just like getting that fresh air in and um, yeah, like you you said it yourself like you, they've left that house closed up for a month or whatever. And you, the first thing you notice is when you walk in is how stuffy it is.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, but even just little things, like knowing what I know now, and like my wife camille's all for it, she loves it like just even just having indoor plants, like yeah indoor plants can really help the health of a home.
Speaker 1:Yeah, like you're smiling like that yeah, I've got plants all over my place inside I like it.
Speaker 2:I like, yes, it's maintenance. You look after them, but it's just nice it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's nice to have that little bit of nature inside.
Speaker 2:Yeah but, but it helps the air quality. It helps pull moisture out, like yeah, but yeah, a lot of people and, look, I, I think, like everything we do, like there's a lot of people that don't agree with me when I say this, but I, my personal opinion, is that we need to get back to our core values and, at the end of the day, we, we're humans yeah like we need to take responsibility, like yeah, and to me it's this simple Like if your car will put a jumper on, if you're hot, open some windows To a certain degree, like we shouldn't expect our homes to keep us comfortable, our cars to keep us comfortable, like all this sort of shit.
Speaker 2:Like we need to walk around the ground bare feet, all that stuff. But I think it's very hard when we've ended up with a lot of these big subdivisions around blocks of land. You've got smaller and you've got houses that are like well, some houses are like gutters are touching.
Speaker 1:Oh, don't get me started on that.
Speaker 2:But look, it's part of the problem, isn't it? So in those situations, the clients have no option but to live in a locked-up house, because as soon as you open a window you're going to hear everything the car's driving past, the neighbour's arguing or the neighbour's flushing the toilet.
Speaker 1:I just don't get that in this country we live in Like just we're building that close together, it's all dollars mate, I know, but it just frustrates me to drive past these suburbs. A mate of mine know.
Speaker 2:It's all dollars. It just frustrates me to drive past these suburbs. A mate of mine.
Speaker 1:The developer's trying to squeeze in one extra block, yeah.
Speaker 2:Well, that was my opinion for a very long time and a mate of mine which was a huge I think he was Australia's largest property developer or something but after he explained it to me me I was like it all makes sense, like reality is it's all about infrastructure. Like the more, the more people and the more blocks you can get in the smaller location. Because reality is governments and councils can't pay to run sewer out into the sticks and power and water and so they're trying like it's it's all dollars, like they're forced who's like making that up?
Speaker 1:is it the developer?
Speaker 2:or is it the like local government saying like we can't run the sewage out there and power out there, so therefore you need to fit more lots in well, I think I don't know, but I'd imagine that's the case, because, like you think about, like if they, if a developer, because I even like, where I'm sure it's the same way you are and but like up here, like there is heaps of awesome land that you could go back and have your 800 square meter blocks on, but like it's like kilometers away, like who's?
Speaker 1:gonna pay for the, the sewage lines and the water lines and the like it's, it's, it's all dollars yeah, yeah, I get that but it's like to me what's more important, like then we're kind of getting away from like a sewage service, like like, why do we need a sewage service? Yeah, I know it's got what the purpose of it is, but 100 years ago we never had it. Yeah, like well, like why well, why is?
Speaker 2:someone else responsible to take care of my waste yeah, yeah, and, like I don't know, I'm sure it's on your radar, giving you um what you're into, but um, it's only come on our radar because everything we're looking to do in our farm development, but um, companies like shane might have to find this one out for you. I think it's called biogas. Um, they're on instagram, but basically it's a toilet where and um that all your human waste, and then you can also put all your your food waste and scraps into it. Yeah, and it has a natural process that creates gas that you use that gas for all your cooking. Yeah, it's incredible. Yeah, so the average four-person family with their own, with their human waste and their food scraps, will create enough of three to four hours gas for cooking yeah, it's no brainer, it it's a no-brainer, it's an absolute no-brainer.
Speaker 2:But the government will step in and say no, you can't do that on residential blocks, it's too much risk. We can't have a tank full of sewage in the backyard.
Speaker 1:Yeah, even just like water, like a water tank. Yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:I know like you got like those. Everyone's mad to put in a little one like a 500 or an 800 litre for water in the garden.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, it's like to me it's an absolute no-brainer, mate, and people will get pissed off that I say it, but if we were really serious about helping the planet being more sustainable, we could change it in a heartbeat.
Speaker 1:I think so too A hundred percent yeah. Do you want to?
Speaker 2:know what biogas is? Yeah, biogas is. It's a renewable fuel that's produced food or animal waste. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So it's like, and it's free, yeah, like, it's absolutely free, like you can buy one of these um home biogas systems, for I think it's's like $2,900 or $3,900.
Speaker 1:Yeah right, so you're going to use them on your projects up on the farm or something.
Speaker 2:We really want to. We're looking into it more, but the issue we have is, because it's accommodation, if you just turn up there for the night, there's nothing in it.
Speaker 1:Ah yeah, okay, If you just turn up there for the night there's nothing in it.
Speaker 2:Ah yeah, okay. So we're trying to work out what solutions we can come up with around that.
Speaker 1:There is another toilet system that I know of I can't think of the name right now but it doesn't produce gas. But I know the end product. You just go put it out on your garden.
Speaker 2:Yeah so the tiny homes we've already built, they've all got composting toilets. They're all dry. There's garden. Yeah so the the tiny homes we've already built, they've all got composting toilets. They're all, they're all dry. There's no liquid in them. So yeah, so yeah, I'm I'm all for that type of stuff, but it's, it's absolutely crazy how we've ended up with, yeah, these like houses that are, people feel that they need to lock themselves in there and turn the air conditioning on, and like it's just crazy, like, like this stat, like you touched on before, that they're throwing around that we're spending this huge percentage of our 90 or something that's fucking not me like no, I don't think.
Speaker 2:I'm sure it's not you I don't know who they're interviewing to get these stats, but like, seriously, like who, because it's huge. You know, it's like something, like it's not you. I don't know who they're interviewing to get these stats, but seriously, because it's huge, isn't it? It's 70-odd percent or something. Yeah, you couldn't think it's right yeah when I heard it I was like that cannot be right. But when you think about it, if someone is coming home, I suppose, if you've got an office job yeah.
Speaker 1:So you're going to work in your car. You get to work, you're outside for half an hour. Go to the office, get a coffee, then you're inside for the day, eight hours. Maybe you come out for an hour for lunch. Yeah, drive back home and then you're inside your house.
Speaker 2:You go for a walk for an hour.
Speaker 1:It comes back to like the start of our conversation. Where is like we're?
Speaker 2:we're removed from our natural environment and everything is so connected yeah, yeah, that's why our plants inside and you walk bare feet and you, yeah, you connect with nature. But, um, I want to jump into your before we wrap it up, stuart, I want to jump into your. So your, your real passion now.
Speaker 2:So you, you sort of you're still doing the building work but, you're really like you've got a business now that sells all the Proclima, yeah, and you're doing training sessions, yeah, um, did I see what was the thing you did down that? I think I said I would have come to it?
Speaker 1:you did some training data, um yeah, I did some training late last year with, like, daniel jacobs, the air boss from proclima, and we. We set up for two days in bangalore and had a set. The morning session was for builders, more practical, and then the afternoon session was more, um, like theory for architects and designers and builders too. Like anyone was welcome. Um. So, yeah, like, along with selling the proclima, try to educate people. And then, yeah, I've done a few um things with the nba, like presentations and um, yeah, just trying to explain to people just more the science, like I said before. Like, like why you should be using these products. Not necessarily like I could tell you why proclimate is a better product, but I would rather get people to understand the reasons why they should be using these types of products yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:So anyone that listens to podcasts all the time, like we um, we had kevin and devon on the guys from performance membranes. Like they're doing this stuff down in melbourne, um, stewie's doing it up in northern new south wales I buy all my pro climber products off studio where it's it's like it's our standard now. Like it's one of those things like you said before, like you're only as good as what you accept.
Speaker 1:So we've decided that we're not accepting shit, building wraps and yeah, but I've not sold it to too many builders that go back to using anything else Because it's not that much more expensive. But I think the benefits of using it outweigh the extra costs. Like it's quicker, it's a more durable product. I don't know if you can put a cost on the enjoyment of using the product, but it's a much more enjoyable product to use.
Speaker 2:Oh, it's easy to install. Yeah, it's just better. Everything about it's better, yeah, um and like.
Speaker 1:The benefits of the build are like you know you. You're reducing your risk, which is good, but you can get your home weather tight you can get it wrapped up, you can get weather tight. Work can continue inside the home, work can continue outside the home at the same time. Um, yeah, it's an easy sell.
Speaker 2:Yeah, like just a little bit off topic, but because I want everyone to reach out to you and um buy your product. But just like talking about weathertight, like I was always taught um through my career, and then like from reps and the materials we're using, that, like your cladding or your brickwork is, is your weathertight layer and needs to be sealed, and so, again, for such a long I was so anal with my team on making sure the claddings were perfect. Like no water can get through silicon and seal everything up. Yeah, and that's not the best way to do things either. Obviously it's got to be.
Speaker 1:I don't know if it's not the best way, I would still say definitely, keep doing that. But it's like, your membrane is your weather tightness layer and then hopefully you build in with a ventilated cavity and then, your cladding is your rain screen, so your cladding is shedding the bulk of the water.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:The membrane's there for your like. I think your membrane's your primary defense.
Speaker 2:Your cladding is your secondary defense, if that makes sense, but in the cladding system it's got to be able to breathe. Yeah, that's sort of what I'm getting at. I believe we were installing it all so good that there was no way for the building to breathe. Yeah.
Speaker 1:I always tell people, when you're thinking about how to put things together, make sure there's a pathway for the water to get out. Yeah, because the water will get behind your cladding yeah.
Speaker 2:So look, I don't know if other people experience this, I'd be. I'd love to hear from people reach out to us, send us a comment. I'd love to hear from people Reach out to us, send us a comment. I'd love to hear from you. But over the last three years we've had quite a lot of issues with having to go back on renovation works for the timber weatherboards. So we're real big on when we do renovations, like for light, like we want. When we finish the job it looks like we've never been there. No one can tell where we stopped and started, and so to do that, a lot of the time we're using rough sawn treated hardwood weather boards to match into existing?
Speaker 2:yeah, and I think it's. This has probably only really come up. Obviously everyone knows the industry is very busy. Timbers like it literally grows, one day gets cut and the next day it's on site so it's very green, it's not getting the appropriate time to dry. Um, we've always tried to like we. Well, we don't try. We do like. We lay our boards out on site, give them a bit of air and breathe. We put gluts between them all. Yeah, a lot of people might not know what gluts are I hope they do.
Speaker 2:It's gluts, not the other word. That's yeah, lay them out, put gluts between them, give them all an air gap, and then we pre-prime everything before we put them on. And the issue we've had is we've had a lot of jobs where the new weather boards are just shrinking like massively.
Speaker 1:Oh, they're shrinking okay.
Speaker 2:And so we get calls from our clients saying, hey, you need to come and check this out, um, and because the other thing that you would know, like every job now with weatherboards, like the painters gap underneath them, yeah. And then, like we've been like, I was like oh yeah, it's neat and tidy, looks great, yeah.
Speaker 2:So the weatherboard shrinks three, five, seven, like we've had them shrinking up to 15 mil wow and so yeah, so you go back and, like you look at a weatherboard wall and there's just all these lines and we use the um so is this when you're matching into the old to new, or? No, so this is like a full, if there's a full wall of new weather boards and every board shrunk so you got 15 mil gap at the top or each board every board yeah, right so 15 is exaggeration, but like three, five, sevens not uncommon not uncommon.
Speaker 2:Like we make our painters use. I've gone blank on the. It's like the I don't know say normal, no more gaps is seven bucks a tube. This stuff's 17. Like it's the one with the most flexibility, yeah, and so, yeah, so as the boards shrink and move around, it's obviously pulling on the gaps. It just looks terrible. So you end up with all these gaps. It looks torn, yeah, and so we've been having lots of conversation with my site team about, like, how can we stop? Like are we not letting the boards dry out enough? Yeah, uh, like, do we need to prime them better? Like. And so we actually got to a point on the job with the boys have literally clattered a couple of weeks ago where we're not going to gap it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so we actually we had the primer um, we primed them and then we, before we did the second cater um, before we installed them, we primed them and we actually got the did the second coat of um before we installed them, we primed them and we actually got the painter to get some paint delivered in the final color and we put a final coat of color on them. So if they do move around a bit, you're not going to notice the difference. Yeah, and we're not gaffing them yeah and I've explained to the client why.
Speaker 2:Um, and it turns out on this particular house, I think it's just 120 odd years old. A lot of the original weatherboards aren't gapped anyway.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:So I just said, look, this is why we're doing it. It's going to blend in better, but the more that I've been talking, so we're keeping the conversation going with our team, and it was one of my team members, one of my carpenters, that actually brought up during one of our team meetings like why don't we, why do you gap them? Like let's stop gapping them.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And I was like fuck it all makes sense yeah. That's going to solve our problem now. But the other thing that it'll solve which I think it's the same as my window story before, because I know when I was an apprentice I never got gapped and even when I started my working for myself we didn't gap them. And then it feels like over the years it's just come in that painters or builders have thought that it was looked a lot tidier and neater.
Speaker 2:So everyone's gapped their weatherboards, yeah, and so even that that's sealed houses up better and the house can't breathe.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:I know that was a long winded story, but that's yeah no it a long-winded story, but that's yeah. No, it's sort of interesting to try to understand why they would be shrinking that much. Like if you've primed all, I reckon we just get such green timber mate, like the shit's still growing and moving when you get, when it gets delivered to site. Yeah, the um, but it's. It's insane the amount of movement.
Speaker 1:I'd love to hear from other builders if they've experienced it, because we've had it a lot I did and we used like um spotted gum oh, this is.
Speaker 2:This is just with your. Uh, actually I'm not even sure what the timber would be like a rough sawn ship lap yeah, just a real rough green colored yeah okay, hardwood treated weatherboards it's a treated board, is it?
Speaker 1:yeah okay, yeah, we did one with um the like it was spotted gum like a chamfer board, like weatherboard, yeah, and I'm pretty sure we gapped it, but I haven't seen any sort of issues like that with it yeah, I reckon there's a lot of things at play like, yeah, the timber's not, like, not dried enough or maybe when they soak it in the treatment, it's.
Speaker 2:It gets too much moisture in it. I don't know what it is, but yeah, it's um but yeah, what it's. Tested the moisture on it before you put it up no that would be interesting so this moisture testing thing's really only on my radar in the last few months well, I'll tell you a story about this.
Speaker 1:I just did a job recently and we put all uh ply up inside and then a month later it all went moldy what just bracing plier? No, no, like a finished ply. Yeah, like a, like a, like a beach like a clear finish, a clear finish ply, it all went moldy.
Speaker 1:But the mold wasn't on the surface of the ply, it looked like it had come through the ply and like we pulled the ply off, frames were testing 12 on the moisture meter. The back of the ply wasn't moldy, it was just the face of the ply. And then trying to get to the bottom of it, like with the ply supplier, and we use mirror bond product on it, and so the ply people reckon that it was the mirror bond and the mirror bond people reckon it was the ply. So the mirror bond said the ply had moisture in it when we installed it. And then the ply people said no, the mirror bond locked. You put the mirror bond on too quickly, it didn't allow it to dry enough. So the first coat had the moisture in it and then the second coat sealed that moisture in, and that's where the mold come from, or the moisture. And so we had to rip it all off and redo it.
Speaker 2:Holy shit yeah, it's expensive yeah, I didn't.
Speaker 1:The client paid for it because they didn't want. They didn't want mold, that's fair enough. But yeah, like it wasn't anyone's fault, it was just but this is the thing.
Speaker 2:There is so much to know, isn't there?
Speaker 1:so the moisture thing, yeah, definitely on my radar, like we, um, we're gonna start checking all of our framing now before we sheet the walls and yeah, well, for me now it's like it takes you two minutes just to check the moisture and just document it somewhere and just say it was 12 when we put it up, or yeah, if it's 18, just needs to dry out a bit more yeah, well, um, well, we've I've got a simple, not similar story.
Speaker 2:We didn't get the mole, but we've been um with all these um tiny homes, buildings, amountable building stuff that we're building um they've got really we've set really strict standards um in the products we use, got to be recycled, all these types of things but and we've used proclimate wraps on them and um internally we've we've done a lot of the linings with osB board.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And so the day we did the training I was talking to you about, you said it's got to be OSB 3, I think it was because it's the only OSB that's vapor permeable.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:So this vapor permeable thing is again. It's something that 12 months ago wasn't on my radar.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And now I know about it. I check everything.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And so we've done the whole wall build up. Um, actually we haven't talked about wolfie reports.
Speaker 2:We're good to touch on that for a minute did some wolfies on yours yeah, on some of them, and so we've done the whole wall builder. We've we got the wolfie reports done, we got it all tested and then we were investigating. I won't name the name they're. They're the best coding product out there, but I'm not sure if they're going to release what we've been working with them, so we wanted to use their product in some colors and they don't normally do colors. Because we've got a fantastic relationship. They've been working with their chemists, they've given us all these color samples and it's just, it's awesome. Yeah, so they've come out to site and we're talking through the colors and I just never thought about it, but through the conversation and their interest in what we're doing and me then explaining the wall build up and why we've done it. So it's vapor permeable and this can move and that can move, and as I'm talking, this guy's going. What did you say?
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:I'm like what do you mean? Which part? Yeah yeah, I'm like what do you mean? Which part? Yeah, so vapor permeable. Yeah, I was like yeah, that's, that's the whole reason we've.
Speaker 2:We've gone to this trouble. Yeah, he goes, our product will stuff that up, like as soon as we put our products on. That's going to seal that up and your whole will build up. Waste of time. Yeah, so it's really important to to know and educate. Like it comes back to before, like we talked about communication, yeah. So anyway, they, once they knew that they just went away and it's it's. It may turn into a really good thing for them, because they've actually now come back with a second lot of colors and they've completely modified the, the structure of their product and they've come up with a vapor permeable one yeah um, and they're, they're really excited about it.
Speaker 1:Well, I'm sure they're excited because they've got a new product that they didn't know existed or they needed.
Speaker 2:But like if we hadn't been having those conversations, if that rep hadn't come to side, if he had just dropped those first samples off to me at a coffee shop, or we caught up somewhere and he didn't take an interest in why we were doing what we're doing and he didn't ask questions and I didn't let him. Yeah, we would have put that product on and, yeah, would have been sealed up and no one would have known any different yeah until the mold was stuck in the walls.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so um, just quickly before we wrap it up second time. Um, yeah, wolfie reports. What Explain to us what they are?
Speaker 1:Well, wolfie's was when do I start with the Wolfie? Wolfie's is like a computer software program and it just models. It's a hydrothermal dynamic, so that's moisture and heat, moisture and heat and how that transfers through the wall, and so you just model your wall build up or your roof build up and then you can see if you're going to develop a mold or a condensation issue over time, and usually model it over 10 years yeah and so you'll go through like the.
Speaker 1:You know the seasons, the cycles summer, winter and you usually find it will either dry out over time or it will increase in moisture over time. And the code is now saying that you've got to be under a mold index of three, and so, um yeah, wolfie will tell you if you're going to be under three.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so I don't even know now, four projects, five projects that we've done. Now We've had the Wolfie reports done. I think you I'm not sure if you gave us the original contacts for them. I think they're down your way.
Speaker 1:I probably did. I've started doing them now for myself, like the other night I was on the phone to Craig Stewart up at Harvey Bay there and talking to him for a couple of hours and going through the Wolfie report and just explaining to him what it all means. Some of his results surprised me. One of his proposed build-ups on the roof I didn't think would work and it passed.
Speaker 2:I think it's cheap insurance, like we're trying to talk every designer and actor we're working with to to get them done like yeah, I think. Like like 400 bucks, 600 bucks, like 600 bucks, yeah, um and and it's cheap insurance.
Speaker 1:But you don't need to do it for every job. If your build up stays the same in the same location, and it's done well, that's what I've been telling people.
Speaker 2:So, from the four or five, whatever it is, we've had done now, like I think I've got like 16 different build-ups. So, uh, for floor, wall and roof yeah um, but basically you just have to.
Speaker 2:Um, stewie might do it differently, but the one we dealt with we just had to tell them the exact. So you basically do a dot point, the exact layout of the roof. So it was um. As an example, it was for the roofing, it was trim, deck color bond batten, counter batten, uh the pro, yeah, the pro climber or whatever you're planning to use, yeah then the, then the rafter or truss and the thickness of that.
Speaker 2:Then if you're planning to use, yeah, then the, then the rafter or truss and the thickness of that. Then if you're going to use a ceiling batten, the ceiling batten, then if, if it's plaster or ply, whatever the ceiling line is, so basically every, every product and sizing and thickness of the products that you're using, and then yeah, they, what are you pumping in the software?
Speaker 1:and it does the test and it tells you, um, yeah, if you're going to have issues with it, like, I think it's fantastic oh, I do too yeah um, and yeah, like stewie said, like once you've done that, so if you're the interesting thing is like what you think might fail sometimes works, and what you think will work sometimes fails yeah, well, we use some one of the street.
Speaker 2:Two of the tests we had done we used some solid floor insulation, so it was a high density like an xbs foam or something that was a pir oh, yeah, yeah, yeah um, and so it had full backing on one side. So one side was white, then the product, then the other side was sewer yeah and so the foil is going to be a vapor blocker so that.
Speaker 2:But they, they hadn't like. As soon as I told them what it was, they're like oh, that's going to fail yeah and I didn't have all the details on it. So I put in contact with the company. They went back and forwards, got all the information, the dial they need, the thickness of the foil and all the everything, and it passed yeah worked really well yeah um so that's what we had with um craig the other night is like the.
Speaker 1:He was using like an, an eight mil air cell on the roof and it passed, yeah. So I think a lot of the I don't know, a lot of the information we get that's getting put out is from people down south, because they're a bit more like the forefront of all this stuff. Yeah, and it's a different climate up here yeah, well, so that's the other thing.
Speaker 2:when you do these wolfie reports, you've got to put in your climate zone. Yeah and um and again. We found that hard. So, like Brisbane, like some of the buildings we're doing, are 11-hour drive apart, yeah, and they're in, like we know they're in very different weather zones but yeah, because Australia is the way it is, they worked out in the same climate zone.
Speaker 1:Yeah well, climate zone, yeah, that's right. So, but yeah, like the project we did, the Passive House project training I was like, oh, we have to use an internal air barrier. That's that's how passive. That's what you do when you're building a passive house yeah and we didn't have to use one.
Speaker 2:It was actually going to cause a mold and condensation issue yeah, and so I think like this has been an awesome podcast. Mate, I really appreciate your time and coming on and look for anyone that's listening. Reach out to Stu Shelton Group, is it Shelton?
Speaker 1:Group.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think so Izzy's building business.
Speaker 1:How can I get in touch with you for?
Speaker 2:the Proclima products, probably through the website.
Speaker 1:I'm just in the process of setting up an online shop.
Speaker 2:Yeah, well, if you want at the moment.
Speaker 2:Just check out Shelton Group on Instagram. That's what I do. Even though I've got all these details, I still send him messages. That's texting my list. That's the best way. But, yeah, look, reach out to Stu. As you would have heard today, he's incredibly knowledgeable, he knows his stuff and he's a real deal like he's running a business. He he's out there installing it, but I hope, um, from listening to podcasts like this, it's sparking an interest in everyone that's listening, whether you're a tradie, a builder, an architect, designer, a homeowner um, because reality is this stuff's on us now like it's real like, yeah, it's coming we've, um, we've got to deal with this stuff.
Speaker 2:But, like the example you've just done, with this type of stuff you can't just do a course or hear what someone says or read what some sort of literature, and then think that it's going to work on the job you're doing, like you really have to gain some experience with it, pay the money to do some of these wolfry reports because, as you've heard, like if we, if we don't, if we're not educated, we can actually be causing ourselves more problems than we're trying to solve yeah so and it's.
Speaker 2:It's really important that all tradies, all builders, all designers, all architects, certifiers, whoever you are, we all need to be working towards delivering our clients the best possible product and health a home that's not going to cause them health issues. That's a big one, hey.
Speaker 1:That's huge. For me, now, that's the number one thing, isn't it that we all want?
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I want to make sure that if my clients got questions about it, that I can communicate with them and educate them on it. So, yeah, make decisions. So yeah, I really appreciate your time, mate. Hope your back improves. You've done well to sit there for that long I've got to drive home well, before we go, is there anything else you that you want to mention to people or talk about?
Speaker 1:uh, no, not really. Just yeah, thanks for having me on and thanks for everything you do for the industry and yeah, like, if you're not, don't know about live, life build and that sort of thing, like what duane and amelia do there is just really valuable. Yeah, I had to learn a lot in my time there and, um, yeah, I just appreciate everything you do for the industry awesome cheers, mate.
Speaker 2:Well, um, look as usual. Please like, like share comment. And yeah, keep listening to Australia's number one building podcast. We'll see you on the next episode. Are you ready to build smarter, live better and enjoy life?
Speaker 2:Then head over to livelikebuildcom forward slash elevate to get started everything discussed during the level up podcast with me, duane pierce, is based solely on my own personal experiences and those experiences of my guests. The information, opinions and recommendations presented in this podcast are for general information only and any reliance on the information provided in this podcast are for general information only and any reliance on the information provided in this podcast is done at your own risk. We recommend that you obtain your own professional advice in respect to the topics discussed during this podcast.