Level Up with Duayne Pearce
I take on the role of an authoritative voice that fearlessly communicates truths drawn directly from my lived experiences. With a genuine sense of ownership, my insights are free from any hidden agendas – they truly belong to the audience. My stories and journey add remarkable value, the key now lies in harnessing its power effectively to help others.
My purpose is to create a new residential building industry. My mission is to inspire unshakable self-confidence in my colleagues in the industry, empowering them to orchestrate prosperous, enduring, and lucrative businesses that bring exceptional projects to fruition for our clients.
My goal is to foster a deeper comprehension among clients about the identity and functions of builders, redefining their perceptions.
Level Up with Duayne Pearce
You Can’t Be a Great Leader Until You’ve Mastered Leading Yourself First.
Unlock the secrets to effective leadership and emotional intelligence with insights from leadership and HR expert Helen Rogerson.
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For you as a leader, from an individual perspective. You need to make sure that each person you lead feels like they're valued, because if they don't feel like they're valued, they're not going to work for you.
Speaker 2:G'day guys. Welcome back to another episode of Level Up. We're back in the shed this afternoon for another cracking episode. I'm really, really excited. It's taken me a little while to get our guest on today. But to give you a little bit of an insight into this guest today and the reason I'm so excited she's a published author. She is an expert at leadership HR. She's actually our leadership and HR expert in my Live Life Build business but also does a lot of training using horses to help people with leadership and personal development and all those types of things. But massive warm welcome to Helen Rogerson. How are you?
Speaker 1:Wow, I'm actually much better than you there, Mr Half Finger.
Speaker 2:Yeah, no, we had a little accident there. It's going good now, but three weeks in and it's going good Excellent. Thank you very much for coming in today. Um, one thing I forgot to mention in the intro there that I'm helen and her partner have. They're very good friends of our families and helen has done a lot for my two girls, um, which we might talk a little bit about today as well. But, um, and my me and my wife.
Speaker 2:But I don't really know where to start with you, helen, because you do so much and I know you're going to add so much value. So, before you get started, hr and leadership is something that I think gets very, very overlooked For people that are listening to this and want to know why. I've been waiting a long time trying to get you on here. It always goes in the too hard basket. So I'm really hoping, from today's podcast, that you can give us a bit of an insight into leadership and HR and all your skills and hopefully take the pressure off people a little bit so that they feel that it's something they can implement in their business, which, ultimately, is going to give them more success.
Speaker 1:And Duane, I won't sugarcoat it, because HR is hard and it's getting increasingly difficult as the complexities of the industrial relations and legislation are changing and it's putting such an onus on people. And the reality is today, if you're going into that field when I was younger you could be a generalist and that is, you're across everything, but today you really have to be a specialist because it's become so, so complicated and so complicated that it's an area now that, unless you're working in it constantly, you lose skills. And it's an area that I'm not as passionate about as I am about developing leader capability and developing the capability of individuals to be the best they can.
Speaker 2:Yeah Well, leadership you're very big on. You've written a book called Leadership for the Everyday Leader, which I have a little small part in.
Speaker 1:Absolutely, and I guess perhaps it's worthwhile us talking because that's how we actually met. And I just happen to have a book here and I'm going to turn to page 163, where I actually talk about Duane, and this is the precursor to how we actually met. So on page 163, I'm going to read out a little excerpt that I wrote about Duane, and this is in the team section, team feedback in action. My husband works on numerous building sites, both commercial and domestic, almost every working day he observes and experiences both good and bad leadership, often sharing with me examples of what occurs which is unfortunately more negative than positive. He can tell a lot from the capability of the leader, from the team dynamics, from the quality of the work and from how the site supervisor interacts with the various contractors Mostly examples of yelling, swearing, belittling and criticism. It is not often that he's been excited about what he has seen on site. Until recently he came home from work effusive about how he saw the builder in charge interact with the team while building a house.
Speaker 1:Dwayne came on site, said hello to everyone by name, including me. He told the team they're doing a great job and apologised for delaying the last team meeting but would hold one soon to give them an update. He then took out his phone and did a recording of the work in progress and posted it on his Facebook page. As he was recording, he was praising the team and their workmanship. You could see the whole team lift and the vibe was positive. Wow, this was a positive emotional contagion from the leader to the team in action. So a big thank you to Dwayne, who not only put his team in a greater frame of mind, but sent my husband home happy. As well. As a leader, you impact many others who may you know, may not even be aware of. So, dwayne, that's you featured on page 163.
Speaker 2:That's? How long ago is that that's?
Speaker 1:That was before COVID.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah yeah, so to give a little bit of background, um, alistair is a just an absolute wealth of knowledge when it comes to termite protection and um those types of things. So he's done our term or he's worked for companies that have done our termite proofing for a lot like can it have to be 12 or 15 years?
Speaker 1:he's been doing it for about 15 16 years himself, yep yeah, and then he, the, the contractor that we're using.
Speaker 2:I'm not sure what happened, but for a couple of years alistair wasn't doing our work. And, yeah, I got a call out of the blue from Alistair saying hey, it's Alistair here, haven't seen you for a while, how are you going want to catch up? And he said I've got something for you. And I was like what's he gonna have for me? And he's like, oh, my wife's written a book and you're in it. So and then, yeah, I reached out to Helen after I'd read it. And well, I haven't read the whole book, helen, like I'm not a reader, but yeah, and then we just hit it off and I just I take my hat off to you for what you do and and how you do it like because it's it's definitely impacted my life. Well, my whole family has been impacted by meeting you and Alistair and what we do now. But Helen does leadership training using horses.
Speaker 1:So the book the book's called Leadership EQ yeah, yeah, so that's a play on EQ for equine, but it's also a play on EQ for emotional intelligence, and emotional intelligence is one of the the big competencies that any leader needs to have, and that's got basically four components to emotional intelligence. It's about being self-aware. It's about being able to control your emotions and dial them up and down in the moment whatever's appropriate. It's also about being aware of others and how they're feeling and then responding appropriately to the other person. So emotional intelligence is a critical competency that all leaders have, and you'll often hear people talk about EQ in the workplace, and that's what it actually means. Those four components Daniel Goldman from the US came up. Well, he didn't invent the concept, but he brought it to popularity around about 25 years ago now. Yeah, it's big people want to improve their eq. So my book and my research is all about developing your leadership capability and especially in that emotional intelligence but you've been able to combine that with your love and passion for horses yeah, yeah so did you?
Speaker 1:did you want to know how that happened, because there's a bit of a story behind that.
Speaker 2:Oh yeah, definitely. Before you get onto that, like, I just want to let people know like I was. Helen did some work with myself and my two daughters, because my youngest daughter was having a lot of anxiety issues and problems going to school and those types of things, and Helen said I'll bring her out here and she can, we can do some work with the horses. To be honest, I didn't really know what we were getting into and what we're going to do and, um, actually, camille come out, didn't she? We all did it. So, yeah, camille, my wife and the two girls, and we did a little session with Helen and it just absolutely blew me away. And then, like we, literally we got back in the car and both Camille and I like shit, we need to do this with the whole team.
Speaker 2:And like, over the last uh, 12, 16 years, I have done almost everything you can possibly think of with my team um, team building exercise and catch-ups and all types of things. And when I told them we were going to see Helen and we were going to do a team building exercise with Helen and her horses, a few of the team didn't want to show up and weren't really sure what was going to go on, but I think we had almost a full team the day we came out to your place and I've never received so much feedback about anything we've done Everyone. Just they turned up sceptical. They had no idea what we're doing and left like completely different people. So yeah, tell me how you got into that, because it's such a powerful exercise to do.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and working with horses makes you get outside of yourself because you're acting with this, this other being, but. But basically you know, I've been into horses ever since I can remember. I loved horses. I got my first horse when I was 11 years old. I saved up all my pennies, I saved up the princely sum of 80 dollars and bought my first pony, which I didn't know wasn't broken in, but regardless I rode him and ever since then I've always had a horse in my life, except for a period for about six months when my horse died and I didn't get another one for six months.
Speaker 1:So they've been a part of my life for a long time and my career has been predominantly in the corporate world. So I've worked for some big organisations that you might have heard of, west Farmers, for example, I was with them for 15 years Fabulous organisation. I was with some other organisations the Coffee Club, mlc, some smaller organisations as well. So my background is that corporate world and predominantly learning and development and developing capability in individuals world, and predominantly learning and development and developing capability in individuals. And a lot of my role had to do with developing management and leadership capability Management in the early days, leadership in the latter days, leadership is coming to prominence, probably in the roundabout the last 20 odd years, and so it was a world that I'd operated in.
Speaker 1:I was running workshops as part of my career, it was just my role and I got this horse called Twinkle Toes and Twinkle Toes was for sale on Gumtree, and I know that no one out there listening has ever done this. But I was in the market for a horse and I kept on looking on Gumtree and I saw this horse. He was beautiful. He came up in my feed every time I clicked on there, but he was too far away. He was down in New South Wales and he was out of my budget. I'm a tight ass. I don't spend any more than $2,000 on a horse, and this horse was $4,000. So whilst I fell in love with his photo and the details, he didn't tick the boxes for me, and I'm at a stage now, if something doesn't tick the box, I can say no.
Speaker 1:So I was still hunting around for a horse for six months and, lo and behold, this horse appeared again on Gumtree Exact same photo. So I knew it was the same horse, but but this time, instead of being located in New South Wales, the horse was located in a nearby suburb called Burpingarry and he was actually half price. He wasn't four thousand dollars, he was two thousand dollars, which was within my budget. So I knew instantly that I was going to go out and buy this horse. You know, as I said, I'm sure no one else ever does this. They look at something on Gumtree and go, yes, I'm going to go buy it. So I went out he was with a dealer.
Speaker 1:I rode the horse, everything went okay. I negotiated as I do, got him for $1,800, went and picked him up the next weekend, put him on a float, he came home and after a couple of weeks I started to have problems with this horse. Now it was a real blow to my confidence because I'd been riding for a long time, I'd been riding all my life, and suddenly I had a horse I couldn't handle. And I suddenly realized why this horse was reduced in price by 50%. Note to everyone out there there's a reason. Things are discounted in price. And it got to a stage where I became scared and he actually kicked me in the head and knocked me over. Luckily it was a glancing blow and not a substantial, because he could have killed me and so I was in despair because I knew that if I sold this horse on he was dangerous, and if I sold him on he would go to a knackery to be literally turned into dog food. That's what happens.
Speaker 1:So my husband and I were up in Mission Beach in far north Queensland. We at that time had a property up there, a duplex, and one of the people renting our property was an old fellow called Fred, in his 80s and a salt of the earth fellow. And he says Helen, how you getting on with that horse of yours? And I go oh, fred, I'm having lots of problems. Says look, I've got some stuff that might help you. My grandson's into this horse thing. So here's a few DVDs. And I went okay, well, he must be pretty good if he's got DVDs.
Speaker 1:So I took them home and watched the DVDs and as I was watching I realised that there were so many similarities between what this gentleman, clinton Anderson from Down Under Horsemanship, was talking about and leadership of people. And suddenly it clicked in my mind that there's a correlation I was missing. I was training in the workplace people to be better leaders and coaching and supporting them, yet I wasn't displaying that in my relationship with the horse and I had to learn how horses communicated to be more effective with them, and some people call it, you know, horse whispering. It's not that, it's simply about understanding the horse's psychology and the way they communicate. And once I started watching these DVDs and learning more about horses, it was like with this horse Twinkle Toes. Suddenly he understood me and I understood him. It was like, instead of talking French and English, we were both speaking the same language. And today that little horse is the star of my show and you've met him.
Speaker 2:He's a brilliant horse.
Speaker 1:You've done a blindfold activity with him, in fact, and he's certainly not the dangerous horse that he used to be. So that actually, that situation got me realising that well, horses are powerful for leadership. And then, from that, I commenced a lot of research. I actually started a PhD, which I put on hold, looking at the efficacy in developing leader capability through equine assisted learning, and what that did expose me to was a lot of information as to why working with horses to develop leader capability is so powerful.
Speaker 1:For example, most of you know that horses in the wild live in herds and the leader of a herd is usually an older mare. It's not the stall, and it's that mare's responsibility to take the herd to a safe place to eat. It's her responsibility to take them to the water source. It's her responsibility to berate the young ones and kick them out of the herd, basically put them in the naughty corner for a period of time if they misbehave. So she has a big responsibility. It's the stallion's responsibility in a herd to fend off predators and basically to procreate. I, you know, let's have sex with all the mares, you know he has all the fun, but it's the mare's responsibility to keep the herd together.
Speaker 1:So naturally horses look for a leader because their natural inclination is to follow a leader in a herd and so when you have a group of horses together they're always looking at a pecking order as to who's number one horse and who's number 10. So if you've got a herd of horses say there's 10 in a herd your number one horse is at the top of the ladder and your poor, sorry horse number 10 is at the bottom of that ladder. One may equate it to an organisational chart, org chart. In an organisation You've got your kingpin at the top there and everyone else below.
Speaker 1:Now what happens with horses is horse number two is always challenging horse number one for the leadership, because the herd always want to know that the best horse possible is their leader. So horse number one always is having their authority as a leader challenged. So obviously horse number 10 is not going to challenge horse number one because he hasn't got the capability or the confidence to be able to do so. But horse number two will, just as horse number three will, challenge horse number two to try and move up the pecking order.
Speaker 1:Poor old horse number 10, the best he can hope for in the early stages is to move up to position number nine, so there might be tussles between nine and 10. So the reason that they challenge each other is to make sure that the best capable horse is the leader In a horse-human relationship. And this is where a lot of problems happen with horse-human relationships is when the horse doesn't believe that you're a capable leader and that you're going to help that horse and protect that horse and look after that horse. That's created the environment where the horse feels safe, because horses want to feel safe.
Speaker 2:Number one it's definitely sounding like an organisation.
Speaker 1:Absolutely, that's how most businesses run. Because your people in your workplace, they want to feel safe and that's been enshrined. If we hark back to some of the HR enshrined in the Code of Practice in relation to psychological safety, and that's providing that psychological safety for horses, for people, but horses are the same, they want to be safe in an environment.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's very interesting, like since I've become more open-minded. I hope people listening to this are picking up the similarities, because it's amazing when you think about other things in a more open mind and how it relates to things. That's why your horse training is so successful, isn't it? Because you're connecting with the animal. You picked me up on it heaps. When we first came out there, I was very nervous around the horse. I've never been, apart from a few little times when I was a kid, like I hadn't spent a lot of time around them and obviously they're a big, strong animal so they're very intimidating and that's how a lot of employees and staff would feel around their boss or see like someone you know with a higher ranking than them, isn't it?
Speaker 1:Absolutely, absolutely. And it's up to that leader or boss or supervisor to create an environment where people feel safe and they can express their ideas. And I mentioned earlier, when we were talking about the book and your feature in it, emotional Contagion. And the most powerful thing about horses is that they can sense your emotions, so how you're feeling actually translate across to the horse and can infect the horse, either positively or negatively. But that also applies to people. So we infect each other either positively or negatively all the time.
Speaker 1:And you know it when someone comes in the room and they lift your spirits up and you feel good because they bring such a positive energy, a positive vibe. Nowhere more can you say it than when you go to the footy and you feel the energy of everyone in there yelling and screaming for their particular team. That's emotional contagion and emotions are contagious and the most powerful person in a situation sets the emotional scene for everyone around them. So if you're a leader and you go into a workplace in a shitty mood, guess what? You're going to bring the people down with you. If you go in and you're uplifted and you're positive, you've got to actually lift the people up.
Speaker 2:But again, probably just thinking back to what you were talking about. Actually, before I go into that, some of our listeners will think you were speaking French or English when you said DVDs. A DVD, if you're a young person, is something we used to have to go pick up from a video at the highest store, take it home, put it in the player before you could watch things. That makes me feel really old that I'm talking about that. But like you're talking about different the 10 horses and having different rankings, like using my business as an example, like and obviously Alistair picked up on it when I went to site.
Speaker 2:Like I feel like even if I've just got off a shitty phone call or I'm or I've had having a shitty day, like I always feel it's my responsibility to turn up on site and hey, going. Everybody talk to them and make them feel good about being there. But it's not just me. Is it like if my supervisor turns up dragging his feet, that's going to roll for the team and then if he's not there, if one of our carpenters dragging their feet like it, it affects the whole team on site. Like even if one of the other trades turn up and drags their feet and mopes around like it just brings everything down, isn't it so?
Speaker 1:absolutely. And you've got to be aware too that sometimes in your business, no matter what size, the person that you have nominated as the supervisor may not actually be the leader in that group of people. There might be an informal leader, who's someone that everyone looks to and you can tell this if you're in a meeting and you say something, all the eyes will go to one person. That person is the informal leader in that group of people and they might not have any official title. And if they come in and they're in a shitty mood or they come in and they're in a shitty mood, or they come in and they're in a great mood again they can lift or bring people down. But you've also got to be aware not just of title, but who is your unofficial leader in a group, because that person will set the tone as well um and you know when we talk about, emotions are contagious.
Speaker 2:There's some great science around that that I'm happy to share with you if you like yeah, definitely, yeah, I want, I want people to listen to this podcast and because, again, being a leader is not something you really taught or it's actually like, or if, if you're like a lot of people in our in the building industry, like you, it just grows like you work for yourself and then you end up with an apprentice, and then you end up with an employee, and then, before you know it, you might have multiple and all of a sudden you've well, even if you put one person on, you've got to be a leader to that person.
Speaker 1:But even if you haven't got any team members, if you're in an industry where you're interacting with customers and you're giving customers advice about anything, you're actually leading that customer to a decision. So you need to be in control. So leadership takes many, many forms. It's not just that formal leader concept.
Speaker 2:It's informal. Yeah, sorry, tell us about the science behind it.
Speaker 1:So when we talk about, emotions are contagious. There was some research done in the US, at Stony Brook University in New York State, and this research was funded by the Defence Force. And why it was funded by the Defence Force will become apparent as the story or as this example goes on. So they took a group of people at this university and they put these people through two levels of stress. The first level of stress was physical stress. They got university and they put these people through two levels of stress. The first level of stress was physical stress. They got them and they put them on a treadmill and they got them to walk and run on this treadmill and what they did is they had sweat pads under these people's arms and they collected the sweat that these people emanated as they were doing this exercise. They got those sweat pads and they put them aside. They then got the same group of people and they put this group of people through a psychological stressor and they actually made them jump out of an aeroplane with a parachute on and again they put the sweat pads under their arms as they were jumping out of the aeroplane and they put them aside.
Speaker 1:They then got a second group of people and put this group of people through an FRMI machine which measures brainwaves in real time, and so, one at a time, they put the second group of people in this machine and what they did is they wafted through as these people were in the machine. They wafted through the scent of the sweat. First of all they did the sweat that was as a result of the physical exertion on the treadmill, and the brainwaves of the people remained the same, they didn't change. Then they wafted through the smell from the sweat pads where there was psychological stress, ie jumping out of the aeroplane and, interestingly, the brainwaves of the people in the machine, in the FRMI machine, replicated the fear response, which actually says to us that as humans, we can smell fear in others. We can emotionally feel how other people, what they're feeling, what they're going through, so we can smell it.
Speaker 1:That's been shown. Of course, horses can smell it. When they say horses can smell fear, they absolutely can. There's no doubt about that. There's been further research done in Europe in that particular area which shows that. So sometimes, when you're in a situation as a leader or just as a human and you have a gut feel about something, that gut feel is coming from all these senses, for example, the smell and the pheromones that you're picking up, that you're not even aware of. So one of the things I'm guess that I've learned through time is trust your gut, because your gut is picking up all these things that, intellectually, you're not aware of.
Speaker 2:And you know. So is that? Is that that seriously linked, like that's something we talk about now doing, when, like figuring out if you can work with a client or not, if your guts is telling you, hey, this client's, there's alarm bells here, like let's not do this job, yeah so so what your, your gut, is doing?
Speaker 1:your gut is picking up all the um, all the cues that you're not aware of. But all these cues that you've picked up in evolution as a human to where you are today has meant that you've survived as a species or we've survived as a species. So we're highly attuned, but we try to rationalise everything in our brains now. So, again, one of the factors that we consider is something called the ideomotor response, which is whenever someone has a thought in their brain, it comes out through their body somewhere. It might be a subtle shift of their eyes, it might be moving of their fingers, it could be twitching of the toes, it could be the blinking rate, nodding of the head, something, a slight squint of the eyes, something that you may not be aware of, that you're giving out these cues. But every time you have a thought, your body is sending out a message.
Speaker 1:Now, horses are very clued into picking up this in humans because, of course, horses are a prey animal, ie other animals eat them, and they're always watching us to make sure they're not going to be eaten by us. So horses are very attuned to all the subtle cues that you're giving off. But as a human. If you're with another person, they're giving off all these cues that you may not be aware you're picking up and that too might add to your gut feeling, either positively or negatively. Um, you know, there could be a slight hesitation in a response from a person or them looking away, which is often a sign of of dishonesty when you're communicating with them.
Speaker 2:You may not pick that up, but you get that sense in your gut that something is wrong and it's your visual and and your senses that are picking up all of these cues and giving you that in your gut so, yeah, so you need to definitely need to go with your gut feeling like that um, I I try and do that with everything now, like every decision we make is is go with your gut, like but um, what do you, what do you think makes a good leader? Helen?
Speaker 1:Look, I think leadership is very contextual because, as a leader, you could be a leader, for example, in your business. You could be a leader at home, in your household. You can be a leader within your faith or your religion, within your sports group. There's many contexts for being a leader and it's the very first thing that a leader has to understand is what context they're operating in and what are the vagaries. So the context, for example, that you operate in as a leader is quite different to the context, for example, that someone working in the banking system is in Different laws, regulations, et cetera. You have to be across, you have to understand the context.
Speaker 2:So that definitely ties into what. So what I was asking you, because then I was going to ask you, like, like I've seen it in members of my team over the years, like they're very they're not very confident leaders on site to run a group of carpenters or something, and yet they can be a captain of a football team and absolutely killing it Like so is it is. So is it about confidence? Is it about what you? Does it have something to do with what you're passionate about?
Speaker 1:Absolutely all of that. And the other thing too is that oftentimes they don't extrapolate, that is, they don't transfer what they're doing in that sports situation across to their business context, because they feel like they've been pigeonholed in that business and this is my role here, not knowing that if they brought some of those skills across with them and put them into place in the work context, they would actually be of greater value and would would be a leader in that particular work context. So you know, you're getting back to what makes a leader is under, and there's there's 10 elements to this understanding. The context number two is self-leadership. You cannot trust a man to lead others until he can lead himself. Sorry, that's very sexist.
Speaker 2:Can we dive into that sure?
Speaker 2:I I think I'm on this. I think I know what you're saying when you say that, because I I believe like, even though through my 20s and into my late 20s and early 30s, like I built a very successful carpentry business, like 40 to 50 carpenters, and like did a lot of work, but I believe I'm a far better leader now than I was back then. Like we got lots of work done, like everyone wanted us to be doing their work. But like I think back and even my time when I was on the tools, when I started my building business, I don't like I I have regrets about things I did. Like I think I could have taught apprentices better.
Speaker 2:I think I like I know I used to yell, I used to be a hothead and a lot of that was driven by just the pressure of not knowing that I wasn't running the business as well as it needed to be run and not having a good cash flow and knowing that having the pressure of like shit, this has to be done. Like I've always sort of been interested in the numbers and like even when I was subcontracting, I would know what I was getting. Like the builder would tell me what I would get to do the work. And so I would have a team of carpenters doing the work and I was always doing the numbers Like in my head I would be going shit, there's four carpenters, two apprentices, out a day. They're using this gear. That's going to cost me this much today If they take this on to do it, I'm not gonna make any money.
Speaker 2:Like there was just all this pressure and so all that pressure was always coming out and yelling and screaming and get this done. So even though I thought I was a leader and I was leading that business, I think I was doing a very poor job of it, whereas now, through doing stuff like your course and being a lot more open, I don't tell anybody really what to do anymore. I guide them, but I am 100% Like. I'm always asking my team like this is how I think it should be done, how do you think it should be done? And it's amazing because most of the time it ends up being either a combination or both, or I'll give them a pat on the back and say, oh yeah, no, mate, that's really good, you do it your way. Don't worry about what I'm saying.
Speaker 1:Like it's, I've done this complete backflip and it's incredible how much more efficient the business is working without just having me yelling and screaming all the time and so let me ask you is there a parallel there between you're increasingly becoming self-aware and know what your triggers are and being able to control your emotions?
Speaker 2:so is your self-awareness increased over the years that's made you a more effective leader oh, definitely, I'm definitely very aware of things now but I've the biggest thing for me is the financial pressure. Yeah, like just knowing the numbers of the business now, knowing what what the business takes to run, knowing that I'm pricing jobs correctly and that every job, as long as it sort of runs to schedule, we're going to make money. I think a lot of my poor leadership was driven by financial pressure.
Speaker 1:So if we look at the three functions of a leader, a leader has three functions. Number one is to get the task done. To get shit done, you've got to build the house to a certain standard within a budget. That's the task. And if you don't do that and if you don't make profit, at the end of the day you're not going to have a business. So your first step in a leadership is you've got to get the task done and from leading people, everyone that works with you must know what they have to do. They clearly must know what they have to do. So it's about communication, clear instruction. You've got to manage the business numbers effectively. That's where this comes in managing the finances, because if you don't run that, the task or the build doesn't get executed doesn't get completed.
Speaker 1:Number two with a leader's responsibility is knowing and supporting and developing each individual on their team and knowing what motivates that person. That's that personal connection with each person on your team. Again, your team could be the people you work with. It could be your footy team, it could be your family spending one-on-one time with your family, getting to know that individual. Every person has got different motivators. Some people, for example, are motivated by more money. Some people are motivated by finishing up early. Some people are motivated by starting later. Whatever that motivation is, everyone has got different motivations.
Speaker 1:Everyone needs to be managed differently and it's really important that you understand that because everyone communicates differently, everyone needs to be managed differently. You can't put a paintbrush across everyone and manage them the same way. It doesn't work like that. So for you as a leader, from an individual perspective, you need to make sure that each person you lead feels like they're valued, because if they don't feel like they're valued, they're not going to work for you.
Speaker 1:And the third responsibility as a leader that you have is to put together, develop and maintain a team, and that's that team spirit, that's that team cohesiveness, that's having those shared goals, that's the communication with the team and that's the culture and the way the team all connect. So every person on a team has to feel like they belong and it's that sense of belonging that you, as a leader, need to cultivate. So, as a leader, you've got three things to cultivate your team know what to do, each person feels like they're valued and everyone feels like they belong to the team. So, as a leader, you've got to balance those functions up. It's called functional leadership. It's a concept from the uk, john adair, back in the 70s and 80s about the three responsibilities of a leader, and it's really important that you make sure you don't focus too much on one of those areas because, if you focus too much on task um, see, I wasn't sure I had a like had access to someone like yourself.
Speaker 2:Well, I shouldn't say that because I could have had access to you, I just didn't know where to look or I didn't know what I didn't know. But it's like what you just said then, like that's been huge as well. Like understand, see, I used to, I was taught the bosses I had growing up and um and through my time and then a bit of contracting, everything was just push, push, push, yeah, and so then I, that's what that's, so that's how I started running my business and, as you just said, like not everybody's the same, and so my and so now even some of the older guys in our current team. I'm really focused on educating them. Like it's, we can't push everybody the same. Like everybody's different. Everybody has different breaking points, different stress levels, different skills, different like feelings, like we are all different. So I think that's definitely helped my leadership just becoming more aware and making the whole team feel comfortable that I'm aware that they're all different and they all have different skills. Like it all do things differently.
Speaker 2:And it is hard with some of the older tradies too, because I see them and they just they push everybody the same and like. So I do spend a lot of time now with them, telling them that don't worry about, like, get rid of the financial pressure, like I'll take that on board. Your job here is to work together and like he's not going to be do it the same as you, and you're not going to do certain things the same as him, like just, and that's okay If it takes a little bit longer to do something because you both haven't got the same skills. Or the apprentices theices are the big ones. I just see them and not just our apprentices, like other trades that we use our apprentices, I see so much pressure put on them and that's one of my regrets as well. I think back to like geez, I used to push apprentices hard.
Speaker 1:I've probably broken people that could have been successful in their industry because I was driving them how I was driven when I was an apprentice, and it's important not to beat yourself up for anyone out there not to beat themselves up, because you can only do what you know and if you don't know any different, you can't do any different.
Speaker 1:So when you talk about the way that you managed people, that was historically how everyone was managed, that was how you were managed and it's therefore what you did. We are now living in a time where we have exposure to so much information, so much education and, again, even legislation doesn't permit us now to overwork our people and to yell at people. If you yell at people today in the workplace, you're opening yourselves up to allegations of harassment and bullying. You actually can't do that. So we're in a society today, in in 2024, where we are so enlightened by the information that's at our fingertips and by the laws that that we are focusing on the individuals and the individuals needs, and we're better leaders and the workplaces are better as a consequence. But if you just focus on task in your workplace, you're going to burn your people out. You.
Speaker 2:You need to balance it off for a period, I know, maybe going back five or six years ago. We had that period in a business where we'll just turn and through the staff and and, as you just said, I was burning them out like I was just push, push, push, push. But and, as you just said, I was burning them out Like I was just push, push, push, push.
Speaker 1:And if you're having a staff turnover like that, you've got to stop and look at what's the common denominator. The common denominator is you. You know you've got to start with yourself first. If something's to change, you've got to look at yourself and go okay. So how do I have to change my leadership style and my communication and my interaction? What do I have to do to create a different environment out there for people?
Speaker 1:Because, that's your role as a leader. Your role as a leader, Dwayne, is to create an environment where people can perform at their best.
Speaker 2:That's what you do, yeah, and that's what I'm striving for now. I don't care what level they're at, but as long as everyone's performing at their best and they're, they're happy, like I think for me that's become a big thing now, and I guess that's getting older, I guess, and but yeah, I want people to enjoy coming to work, like cause the last thing people want to be doing is hitting the snooze button in the morning and not wanting to go to work because of what's going on at work. But I think something that we've said a lot through this podcast it's going to have to be the title, I think is that you don't know what you don't know. You don't.
Speaker 1:And everyone out there. You've got to stop beating yourself up about it. There is so much information out there. The challenge is knowing where to start.
Speaker 2:Yeah. So to move on a little bit from the leadership stuff you've mentioned, the HR stuff's huge. Yeah, it is, and I've already put my hand up. It's a lot easier to just shy away from it and push it into the corner because it's a lot of documents and paperwork. Well, we've been quite slack, but we're working with you at the moment to try and get all our HR stuff in order and I think that the driver for me has been a couple little incidences that have happened on site, but probably the biggest one is just I don't know I've had this realization in the last couple of months like there's a lot of females in the industry now and a lot of our contractors have female employees and a couple of contractors we use are female. So there's things that have happened on site that just really we need to be aware of who's there and what gets said and how it gets said and how people get talked to. It's real now, isn't it?
Speaker 1:Absolutely, absolutely and really.
Speaker 1:You know, it's not just females, it's every person that comes onto your workplace deserves to be treated with respect, and you know, if we look at that from the respect at work angle and respect at work was some research that has been done and released in 2020, a national government, federal government initiative to identify how much sexual harassment is happening in the workplace and what can be done to actually prevent it put an obligation on all businesses now, no matter what your size whether you're two people, 2,000 or 200,000, to actually be really proactive in the way that you deal with situations in the workplace.
Speaker 1:No longer can you just put it in the too hard basket and go. I'll deal with that if it happens. It's a matter of you have to be proactive and you can be audited as well to actually show that you're being wellralia. I'm looking at an australian audience here. If you're international, it may well be different there, but all of that is to try to make all the workplaces I'll get back to the word safe and this is another theme that's coming through to make the workplace a safe place for, for women and you know you work, your industry is predominantly male. We I'm just trying to think when we built our house, there wasn't a female on site.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:It was all male.
Speaker 2:There's definitely like and again I think it's great, like the attention to detail is better than a lot of the males. Like it's like I I think I take my hat off. Like I think females should go for it if, if any, there's look I can tell you.
Speaker 1:You know, um, I've just turned. What am I? 56? I've just had a birthday. And growing up in high school, I loved woodwork. I was one of the few girls that followed woodwork right through and I would have loved to have done things. I love working with wood and I would have loved to have gone into carpentry. But in my day women didn't do that. That's not what you did Today. Of course, I probably would have been a carpenter, because you've been around our place. You see I've made a couple of stools and chairs.
Speaker 1:I like doing that, but it wasn't available to me. It was, if I was perhaps more aggressive. But you can only do what you know and that wasn't a role for girls. Today, girls have that opportunity to be whatever they want to be and you, as a leader in your business and whatever business again, you need to create that safe environment. And what does that environment look like? It's an environment where you watch your language, you're very careful with what you say, you have amenities for men and women.
Speaker 1:You understand that there is about break times and when breaks have to be taken and the work-life balance. You know there's this concept that we think we can have it all and we can have it all and we can have everything, but not at the same time. You know I look back. You know I look back now at my work and I'm someone who I gave 110% to my jobs until I got burnt out. But my family suffered.
Speaker 1:My son doesn't call me mother or mum. He calls me Helen. Yeah, he thinks it's funny, but every time he does it it's a little knife in the heart for me. Yeah, he never realises that, but every time he does it it's a little knife in the heart for me. He never realises that, but that's because his father, alistair, my husband, he was the home husband when home husbands weren't common, and so we had to compromise. I had to compromise motherhood, if you like. I never took Hamish to the school sports, that was all Hamish, that was all Alistair. Hamish had a much closer relationship with his father than he ever did with me, and and that was my compromise. And as a woman now with an older son, um, I look back and that's that's a regret I have. But I couldn't have it all. I couldn't be a mother and be at, go out and be the major breadwinner in our family yeah, like.
Speaker 1:I couldn't do all of that.
Speaker 2:I think like and that's something that I like I want to give people the opportunity to have that like, if female, like Camille and I've spoken about a lot like I I would, I would love to employ more females. Um, and the reason we've started talking to you is because I know we've got to get stuff in place and and we've got to make the rest of the team more aware of it, because, there's no doubt about it, it's going to be different, like having a female on site all the time will be different, the banter will be a bit different and what gets said will have to be a little bit different, but that's okay, and what gets said will have to be a little bit different, but that's okay. But yeah, I think like employers and leaders need to make females feel comfortable so that they don't get in that situation. Like obviously, if they've got to have time off for kids and so like we do that now even with our current team. Like I'm really big again because I never got it, like the same as you.
Speaker 2:Like Lottie I've talked about this a lot Like the first two or three years of her life I hardly saw her. Like I might have seen her if I was lucky if I had two days off on a weekend, maybe on a Sunday. We spent some time together and we made the most of it. But I'd wake up up, go to work, she'd be in bed. I'd come home, might have had got to have half an hour with and then she'd go to bed. Like it's. So I'm really I. That's something as a as I feel as a leader, I'm trying to really encourage my team like just let me know, like don't, don't miss out on opportunities if you've got to be with your kids, or even if your partner, like if your partner's got to go somewhere, like and you've got to look out for the kids, like do it like we only get one opportunity at this.
Speaker 1:So and if you want more women in your workplace, obviously there's the respect at work component that you have to comply with, and that's a legislative thing. But the other thing that you can do if you genuinely want to go down that track is look at things like workplace flexibility. There are so many great women out there that cannot work full time, that can only work school hours because they've got children, but they're not given that opportunity to do so. So is there the opportunity to provide part-time, flexible work, reduced hours in that middle of the day. There's so many things that you can do.
Speaker 2:What's the basics For people out there that are listening, that are tradies or builders or stuff. What's the basic stuff you should have when it comes to HR and stuff?
Speaker 1:So the basics. You know. I'm a big one. What's my mantra? Document, document, document, document. So you cannot have too much documentation and record keeping. So look, the very first thing that you have to have are employee files. You have to have a file for each of your team members. So, from a HR perspective, that's where you keep their employment contracts, their details, and oftentimes that's either hard copy, ie in your old filing cabinet, or these days it should be in most cases on a computer, which you should back up regularly to, because you don't want to lose these files.
Speaker 2:So what would you have in that? Because I guarantee you a lot of people wouldn't have that. They'd have the phone number and their address.
Speaker 1:So let's start from the very start, then, and so I'm quite risk adverse when it comes to HR. So I have a protection. My goal is to help protect your business. So the very first thing that you should have in there is from when you interviewed the person, so your interview guide, so you can actually go back to it and see what notes you made about their interview. So you can actually go back to it and see what notes you made about their interview.
Speaker 1:Then you should have information there of when you emailed them making the offer, put that email across into their employer file. You then should have a copy of their contract or letter of offer, depending on what you do. That should be in their file, because that letter will also indicate things like you've provided them with a fair work information statement, which is a requirement by law that you have to have to supply that. So if you include in your covering letter that this is attached and you have that covering letter on file, then you can actually show that, yes, you've provided it. So it's ticking that box from compliance. So, again, compliance driven.
Speaker 2:So is that something that if, like if because I know how it works on site Most people would talk to someone. Whatever they have a phone call, they come on site. Hey, mate, what do you want? Oh, I'll pay you 40 bucks an hour. Yep, no worries, handshake start next Monday.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Like I'm just trying to think through scenarios here, like could it happen that if you put someone on, you agreed to 40 dollars an hour and then three months down the track it doesn't work out and they go away somewhere and they come back and you go hey, we agreed on 50 like. You've only been paying me 40 like. Is that a possibility?
Speaker 1:well, it depends what's in the award and depends on how many hours. So if that 40 um, and let's say you're paying them a consistent 40, let's say that 40 is below the award rate, then you are actually in breach and you do have to pay them a higher amount. If you're paying them a flat 40, and let's say you're also getting them to do additional work on weekends or overtime, but you're still paying them a flat 40, again the calculations have to be made is if it's double time on a Saturday or a Sunday, is the excess that you've paid in that $40,? Let's say the award says it's $30. Now you've been paying $40 now. So over a week's period you're paying them an excess of whatever. Does that what's called? Does it roll up and cover those additional hours? And if it doesn't, then you could be exposed to a claim of that. But the reality is that you're required to actually tell your employee when they start what award applies to them and what level under the award that they actually come under.
Speaker 1:That's a requirement and you do that by giving them a letter, an letter so it protects you, and it protects them, and it protects you, and it shows that you're actually following the right process, because like so many build like well businesses in the building industry.
Speaker 2:They're just head down, bum up, trying to keep the wheels turning and like. Thinking that they've got to do this paperwork and have these documents is just like another arrow to the heart. So it's like, but it's, it has to be done, doesn't it?
Speaker 1:it absolutely does.
Speaker 1:So you know, at a minimum you should have your letter of offer and a copy of a contract on the employee file if nothing else if they're just the two bare minimums, so that you can actually refer to it and don't forget that if you're ever audited by Fair Work, the onus is on you to prove that you did supply this information and you did follow the right processes, and you can just pull out the file and show that. The reality is that Fair Work are only going to audit you if there is a complaint made against you. Unfortunately, all our organisations are absolutely under-resourced, and Fair Work included, that they haven't got the resources to be able to go out and just proactively do random checks. But if you get a complaint made against you, then you'll be asked to provide documentation.
Speaker 2:Something that I've learnt over the years and people that listen to this podcast probably think, holy shit, how can Duane have dealt with all this stuff? But like I've been in the industry now 27 years running, like dps, construction has now been going for I think we're coming up to 16 or 17 years, um, and then I had the, the carpentry business prior to that and like, honestly, I was creating my own problems. Like you know my sayings, nothing happens to you. It happens because you like and the reason that I like, we are like always trying to constantly be working on something and is because you never know where it's going to come from. And like people out there will be listening to this and thinking I'm paying more than the award, I don't need to worry about all this shit. I've, I'm fine. We've had we've had situations come back to us over the like this is.
Speaker 2:I'm going back 10, 15 years like um, and the funny thing is that I'd all of my major problems were before I met Camille, like when I was just trying to do everything on my own, but like. One scenario was like I'd done a handshake, we'd agreed on a pay rate with a guy and he was great. He was a really good guy. We got on really well. He left. There was like it was mutual, but then it was obviously happening before he left. There was like it was mutual, um, but then he it was obviously happening before he left me. He was going through a divorce and then all of a sudden it's like what he's getting paid has been dragged into the divorce settlement and then all of a sudden I'm getting dragged into it because I apparently should have been paid anymore and like so you never know where something's going to come back.
Speaker 1:And yeah, keep records, keep records, keep records. And you know the, let's face it, the award isn't an easy document. No, awards are. They're not easy documents to read and understand because they you've got to go backwards and forwards.
Speaker 2:But you don't have to know, like you don't have to have everything Like something that I, when my first few runs I've talked about before like I had some issues with work cover and the tax man and things and I had nothing. Like I was running everything myself head down, bum up, getting home late, late, sleeping, trying to just do everything on the fly, and I had some very expensive lessons and that, like at the time I was very frustrated about it, but it was completely my fault. I was doing nothing about things that I knew I should have been doing. But then, like, some other things started to.
Speaker 2:Like over the years I had some other little things with workplace health and safety and that, but I had started to do things and even though they'd approached me and I had been audited a few times, I didn't have everything, but they could see that I was trying and that made a huge difference, like just the fact that I could show them a few documents and that I like I remember one time I can't remember what it was, but we were working on a document and just the reality that I could show them that, hey, we actually, we actually have started working through this and we, I think we had it in place for a couple of the team, but we hadn't got through all the team yet.
Speaker 2:They, I didn't get a fine. But they basically said, look, we'll come back and just check on things in a few months' time. So I think, like because a lot of people listen to this and like everything, they'll get overwhelmed and they'll think, oh shit, I cannot, like I just cannot run a business, like it's too hard. But you just need to show that you're putting in a little bit of effort, don't you?
Speaker 1:Look, and I think the other thing to realize, too, is that you cannot be an expert at everything. I think the other thing to realise, too, is that you cannot be an expert at everything. You're doing what you do because you're passionate about it, and whether it's building, or whether it's plumbing, or whether it's milking a cow, you are doing that because you love doing that. Your skill set is not in administration and payroll, and it's an increasingly complex area.
Speaker 1:So take a step back and think okay, I need to outsource this there are so many great outsourcing organisations that you can do this with and it's going to help you because it releases that stress that you have about that little voice in the back of your shoulder going oh I can't enjoy sitting down my dinner diet because I should be doing X. Y relieves that stress and also, as I said before, the compliance and the HR side of it is becoming so, so complex that if you can outsource your payroll, that's one less thing that you have to worry about and someone else can actually manage that for you yeah, I think that's a great, really great point, because that's definitely something that I've learnt.
Speaker 2:You have to pay. You physically cannot do everything yourself, especially a small business, so you've got to outsource it, spend the money and get someone else to prepare things.
Speaker 1:And if we get back to the leadership I said, it's all about to do well. You have to be well. You know you've got to look after yourself first. So if you're stressing about all of this paperwork and administration and payroll and everything that you have to do, then you're probably not sleeping at night. Your stress levels are high. Your resilience is very low.
Speaker 1:You become very active very reactive at work and that doesn't put you in the best frame of mind to be a leader for your people. So if you can relieve some of that, that then lets you focus on the business and focus on the people side of it. Because, look, leading people and managing people is hard, we believe. Intellectually, we think it's simple, and this is why people don't do any training in this field, because intellectually it sounds pretty straightforward being a leader and a manager, but behaviourally that is, putting it into action is really very difficult because there is so much involved and you mentioned before that for you you went into this, really it's called by default. You went into it not knowing anything.
Speaker 1:So there's leadership by default and there's leadership by design. Leadership by design is you sitting back thinking about what sort of leader you want to be, or manager and manager. I include all these tasks like your payroll, like your filing, your administration. All of that is tasks what sort of leader you want to be, and putting a plan in place to be that leader, not being a leader by default, which is just letting it happen out of the blue. Think about what sort of leader you want to be, be the best for your people. Get rid of all this administration. If it's not your hot button, then it just creates stress for you and it means that you're not being as productive as what you could be doing the role you love.
Speaker 2:I think that's really important, like I know, knowing what I know now, which is knowing a lot of what I didn't know, I didn't know in the past and obviously like it's a lot about what we teach in Live Life Build with Elevate Like number one, you've got to know your numbers. If you can know your numbers and take the financial pressure away, that definitely frees up space to be a better leader. But then understanding the role that you want to play in your business, having the fun like understanding the role that you want to play in your business. Having the fun like understanding the numbers enough to bring the funds into the business to employ people to do the roles that you don't want to do. And then like getting in the position that I'm lucky enough to be in now, where I can sort of like I don't.
Speaker 2:One of my huge mindset shifts for me has been like understanding that I don't have to do everything, I just need to make sure everything's getting done.
Speaker 2:It has really freed up my headspace to be older and so putting the right team members in the right place, building the team up, having a supervisor, having the office staff, really frees me up to turn up to site and spend more time with the team and learn, like, like, understand them like I, like, I think, how we run our business now and it just makes me really proud and I think back to all the what we've been through over the last sort of 17 years or so.
Speaker 2:You just don't know what you don't know, so you just head down, bum up trying to keep the wheels turning and like I can't believe like I've employed so many people over the years, and like I can't believe like I've employed so many people over the years that I know their name and we got on. We had a relationship at work, but I I didn't take the time, I didn't know their family, didn't know their kids names, didn't know what they did on weekends, though I was so just entrenched in trying to keep the business afloat and the wheels turning that everything was just always about what's next, what's next, what's next?
Speaker 1:So those people, because you didn't have that relationship with them, they didn't feel as valued. Yeah, and so therefore, you probably had a bit of churn. Ie staff turnover, people left.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:Because if I feel valued, I'm not going to leave. I'm going to stay with you because you appreciate and value me.
Speaker 2:Yeah, like I always tried a little bit, but I just, yeah, nowhere near as much as I should have. And even now, like I can do better, like I would like to know more about my staff and their kids and their family and their goals and what they want to do because, yeah, I want them to feel like they're part of a company that values who they are and what they want to be, but it's taken a long time to get to that point and you know I think it's very important and you've mentioned this a number of times is the financial situation, because as soon as you have that financial stress come in, it actually changes the way you think and it puts you in a survival mode.
Speaker 1:It also puts you in a scarcity mindset, which changes your behaviors so that becomes all that you focus on and you're your brain actually can't focus on anything else but that. So, trying to be a leader when there's not any money around, you've got the financial situation and when, basically, you're in survival mode, you, you haven't got the capacity, your brain hasn't got the capacity. So when you talk about the financial situation, you know I've I see it constantly my husband and I had a business that did with a lot of cash flow, uh, very low margins. We had a general store for a couple of years uh, produce out the back that he ran and then the store out the front, and we had great cash flow. You know, great money coming in. We also had a shitload of money coming in.
Speaker 1:I hated Mondays. Mondays was when the cigarette bloke came in and we had to part with $15,000 every Monday just to pay for the cigarettes. But there was that huge money coming in, huge money going out. We calculated when we sold the business that we were working for $2 an hour.
Speaker 2:That's what we were earning in that business.
Speaker 1:We were there seven days a week 360, three days a year. We were closed two days, that was it, and we were open all the time, seven till seven. It was hard work but we had good cash flow. Um, but we also had big expenses and but that's like.
Speaker 2:That is most businesses, isn't it like? Because we don't, we don't know like you get into it. You have the business and you just get so entrenched in keeping the wheels turning that you don't take a minute to sit back and work things out.
Speaker 1:And you need to because if it's not working, you need to change the way you're doing business, change your pricing, make some changes so that you can sleep at night.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:We were lucky because I had another income. I was also working part-time. I'd work in the morning part-time at home as a new mum, and then I would go down to the shop at lunchtime and work from there until seven.
Speaker 1:So we had big, long days it was a lot of work, but you had to do that to keep the cash flow coming in to pay the bills. So I know what it's like and the issue is is not cash flow. The issue is managing your cash and your expenses and being across it and how much you keep at the end of the day. Oh, yeah.
Speaker 2:So cash flow and turnover is absolutely nothing if you're not making a profit and I can't stress that enough. I bang on a bed all the time in this podcast you have to know your numbers, and there's so many. The more I do this podcast, the more I talk to people and just the more I learn. It's so hard Just touching on that for a second. But the bank will lend you money based on your cash flow. So it's hard to because you think, oh yeah, the bank's lending me money, so I must be making money. So in your mind you're telling yourself, oh, I'm making money and you're buying new cars or you're growing the business or whatever, but your margins are getting probably smaller and smaller. And yeah, it's a vicious cycle and yeah, you have to spend time to deep dive into your numbers and stuff.
Speaker 1:I worked in franchising for a number of years almost seven years and one of the advantages of franchising is that you get benchmarks in relation to your expenditure ratios. So, for example, cost of goods sold was around about 30%. Cost of employment, your wages, et cetera, was around about 32%. So in a franchise, if you know what the numbers, your numbers, are, you can compare them to what the benchmark is. I don't know if your building industry has any numbers like that I highly doubt it.
Speaker 1:Because if they did, then builders can actually think actually I make in this particular area. Here I need to review my processes and the way I'm doing things because I'm you know, know my cost of goods sold, which is the cost of your raw materials etc. Is and it wouldn't be this for you guys, but instead of being 30, it's running at 40. I'm losing 10 here somewhere that my peers aren't how can I?
Speaker 2:well, the only benchmark that Amelia and I try to push, and it's from all the surveys and the hundreds of members we've had do it now. But but we know that the the average custom building business takes between 18 and 24 percent just to cover their overheads. Yeah, and when you think that most builders are only putting 10 to 15 percent total, and then they wonder why they're not making money, because it's actually taking them more to operate every day than what they're actually putting on the job and generally most of the time that doesn't even include paying themselves a salary or their company making any profit.
Speaker 1:And so suddenly that puts pressure on you to get the next job, because your next job has to pay for this job. So, you're constantly running behind the eight ball.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's terrible, but we've talked about it a lot, helen. But I want to go back to the horses. Okay, because We've talked about a lot, helen, but I want to go back to the horses. Okay, because we never really talked about what you do with the horses. So when we went and did the day with Helen, with Camille and the girls, it was a little bit different. We did some breathing work and we connected with the horses and stuff. But the day I brought the team out, you took us through a lot of different exercises and you'll have to explain this because I'll get it wrong. But when you, what's the heartbeat? Like the horse's heart is one of the slowest beating hearts, isn't it?
Speaker 1:absolutely so. It's one of the reasons that people feel so relaxed around horses and why horses are very therapeutic to be around. Now, I don't do therapy. I make a clear difference between therapy, which is, you know, looking at the past and helping you work through things, and learning, which is what I do, which is about equipping you with skills and knowledge to move forward. But being around a horse is very relaxing because of the horse's heart rate.
Speaker 1:Now, a horse's resting heart rate is less than 40 beats per minute. As a human, your resting heart rate is usually around about 60 beats per minute. Now, each of us, with our hearts, we have an electromagnetic field which means that our hearts, when we're in sync with, when we're near another person, our hearts will sync up. When we're with one, it's about one metre our hearts will, over a period of time if we're sitting together, they'll start to beat at the same rate. Now, a horse's hearts are significantly bigger than humans and horses have a bigger electromagnetic field. So a horse's heart actually influences our heart when we're near them and it will actually slow our heart rate down and that actually makes us feel relaxed.
Speaker 1:And that's the science that comes from the HeartMath Institute in the US. So if you find being around a horse is relaxing and therapeutic, a lot of it's to do with the horse's resting heart rate. Of course, if you're around a horse that's in any way nervous or excited or getting ready to race, their heart rate will be significantly higher, which can impact you. So I'm talking about being around a nice, calm horse which will actually calm you down and make you feel that sense of wellbeing. And often people and I know you mentioned the other day that you were out with the horses and out with Violet and the horses and you came away feeling that sense of wellbeing it's because they've just relaxed you.
Speaker 2:I like since learning what we've learned with you, I think like so we don't. We've got a horse that's currently out at well, helen found us a horse that's currently out at her property. We try and get out there two or three times a week. We need to get out there more, but the little bit of time that I'm like getting out there with the girls and like, even though I'm not really doing anything, like we're coming out, they're doing the brushing and everything there, like while they're brushing, like I'll stand his head and pat him and talk to him and things, and I'm actually finding that that is my most relaxed place. Yeah, like I, it's just so amazing how like they're a beautiful animal. Well, it's again, it's just so amazing how like they're a beautiful animal.
Speaker 1:Well, again, it's the environment, Because you're surrounded by greenery and the research actually shows that when we're surrounded by greenery trees and grass it does actually affect our psyche, so it makes us feel better. So you're out in the fresh air, You're out surrounded by greenery, You're with a horse with a resting heartbeat of 40 beats per minute, and he really relaxes when the girls are there brushing him. He loves that. His heart rate's infecting your heart rate. You're just standing there. You've got no expectations or pressures on you. You're not thinking, oh, you know, they've got to brush that horse neater than this or do a better job of X, Y, Z. You're just being in the moment.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's's been a real blessing for me to do that, because I just don't. There's not too many places like my brain doesn't stop, like I'm constantly thinking about just everything, like what I can do, how I can do it, and when I'm with the horse that all goes away and the only Camille's excited. Because the only other place that I've found and I find this with a lot of other business people that I associate with the only place that I've ever been able to switch off has been thrashing around a motorbike somewhere or in a race car, because while you're doing that you're concentrating. But I'm now getting that same like I can completely switch off when I'm around the horse. But I found like that day we brought the team out there and you you were pointing it out to me while we're there and what we're doing, like the horse could pick up instantly who the better leaders were in my team and who the shit, um or not. The, the troublemakers were all the ones that stir things up and I that just blew me away.
Speaker 1:And that's because the horse is reading off of their energy and responding accordingly. You know I've had people turn up to workshops and go into the paddock for the meet and greet and you know, miss, there was one in particular. He was quite a senior manager and Miss Molly, who's the little pony. She looked at him and said no way, mate, and she went to the other end of the paddock and wouldn't come near him. Now it turned out that he had a real issue with connecting with his staff and Molly, the horse, picked that up and she wouldn't come near him. So he was giving out the same vibes to her as he was with his staff and people just didn't want to be around him.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:So you know they read you and they respond to you and they build your self-awareness, because some of we didn't do this with your team because it was focused on team building. But one of the activities that I get the leadership groups to do is a lunging activity and that's to get the horse to go in a circle around you. And you have to be really aware of your body language and the message that you're giving, because if you look in the wrong place, you're actually telling the horse to stop and if you're, if you're not standing up straight, then the horse won't go forward for you. There's all these nuances with your body but it really makes you be aware of the messaging that you're giving out with your body.
Speaker 1:And at one of these workshops I had a chief operating officer and the horse wouldn't go around for him. All the rest of his team, the horse went around and I went and had a quiet conversation with him and it turned out and I don't know why this came to me and I said to him you don't believe you're worthy of this role, do you? And he said no, I don't. And he'd only been in the role for a couple of months and taken on chief operating officer and he didn't think he was worthy of being a chief operating officer. And because he didn't believe in himself, the horse basically gave him the finger and said if you, I'm doing whatever I want to do which is what his team probably were doing as well.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so we had to. We had a bit of a conversation to actually change his mindset about yes, he can do this, yes, he is worthy, and I helped him with his body positioning et cetera, and eventually he got the horse to go around. So for him that was a big change. But the horse read that there was something in Cefalo's brain that wasn't giving out the congruency.
Speaker 1:And the horse is going. No, if you're not going to be a true leader and if you don't believe you're a leader, then I'm not going to do it for you.
Speaker 2:It's been really interesting just seeing the effort you put into the girls. Camille and I are incredibly grateful for you, talk to them about their posture and standing up straight. But I guess for anyone listening that struggles with, I guess, confidence and all those types of things. I'm sure there's people that do what you do in other states and other areas. Or if you're in Queensland, reach out to Helen. But I know for Violet she's come leaps and bounds with her confidence and she's still got stuff to do. But seeing the difference since she's been spending the time with the horse is just incredible.
Speaker 2:Um, and I, to be honest, I don't know if she would have got that from doing anything else. So I got. It's very. From what I've seen. It's very different sitting with a specialist or whatever they are, doctor, whoever and talking about things whatever they are a doctor or whoever and talking about things. But physically being in an arena or a round yard with a horse and having to put your shoulders up and put your head up and look straight ahead to me, it just makes it very real and you see an instant outcome.
Speaker 1:And look, that's the advantage of running these workshops with horses is that people can change something a little inside them and they'll get an instant response. And that response might be positive, it might be negative, but they get a response and they get that feedback and they can adjust whatever needs to be adjusted to get a better result.
Speaker 2:Because even doing it with a human, like doing it with a like, I know my team took a lot of what you taught us on board and, like the team's been a lot better in a lot of areas ever since. But in a team environment on site, human to human, like people can hide, like people can hide, can't they Like? You're not going to get the same response?
Speaker 1:No, no and people do hide things from each other. The horse actually doesn't have the ability because he doesn't have a frontal cortex. He doesn't hide those things, he just responds to you in that particular moment as to how you're turning up and, of course, people in a workplace aren't going to tell you something if they think it's going to be detrimental to them in any way. They're not going to tell you that, oh no, I don't feel like I'm worthy to take on this new position.
Speaker 1:They're not going to going to tell you that yeah but the horse senses it somatically, ie through your body, and responds to you in that way and and as I said, you know I don't do therapy and I don't sit down and go back with you through your history and what's happened to you as a child. What I do is go okay, let's work on giving you the skills to move forward so that when you're in this situation in the workplace, this is what you can concentrate on your breathing, your body, posture, your thoughts, because it all comes out through your body yeah um, it's really really very powerful.
Speaker 1:But you know, the horses give messages that sometimes I'm trying to interpret, um, and I don't know. Don't know what they're trying to say to people, but they all respond to people differently.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, it's incredible stuff. I'm really pleased and it's incredible how things pan out. Like who would have thought, just from turning up to site saying it ate everyone calling them their name, I'd end up in your book and we'd meet, and now we're friends and you're helping our girls out with horses and things.
Speaker 1:Well, it's the butterfly effect. You know the concept that a butterfly flapping its wings in Brazil will cause. You know a hurricane in Sydney, the little things, you just don't know what they might lead to. And it's dropping a pebble into a pond, the ripples that go out. And you know, when you came on site that day you actually lifted Alistair's day and he came home. I was actually writing the book at that stage and he came home and he said this is he said, let me tell you about my day. So you actually lifted him and you don't know the impact that you or anyone out there listening can have on another person's life Just by something simple and little and positive that you do. And you know, I've I've heard stories of little acts of kindness by one colleague to another actually saving that colleague's life because they haven't gone home and committed suicide. So being positive in the workplace and supporting your people and helping them, you know has repercussions, wide repercussions. Don't ever underestimate of the influence you have.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and it's just. I think it's just super, super important to like everybody deals with shit. There's always something to deal with and something going on. But when you show up to your team or to your workplace like everyone's there as an individual, and just treat everybody with respect and kindness and don't have your head down and dragging your feet, because it affects the whole team Absolutely.
Speaker 1:You set the example. If you're head down and dragging your feet, guess what? Everyone else is going to be head down and dragging their feet as well.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so, helen, we'll wrap it up. Is there anything that you want to add about HR and leadership before we get out here?
Speaker 1:No, no, look, it's just that I can encourage everyone to think about what sort of leader they want to be and put a plan in place to become that leader. And there are so many resources available through things like YouTube and podcasts, and if you're not a reader, then there's audio books. There's so much available out there. There is no excuse for anyone these days to be ignorant, because the access to free resources that we have is incredible. And, of course, if you want a horse experience, reach out.
Speaker 2:Oh for sure. So look for anyone that's listening. Like if you listen to this podcast for a while now, you've heard a lot about my growth and experience and I'm open to trying anything these days and I can't believe that when you're open about things and you try these new things out, it just what it leads to and what happens. It's absolutely incredible. So, yeah, look, if you're in Southeast Queensland, reach out to helen. I honestly cannot recommend the training with her and her horses highly enough. It's absolutely incredible. A few builders I know now have been to you and done some stuff and everybody raves about it. Where can they get the book?
Speaker 1:if you need it, want a copy of the book. You've got to reach out to me. I control it pretty closely, so be a vip and reach out to me via my email address. That, I guess, is included.
Speaker 2:Yeah, we'll show you can put a link on the podcast, but look, send, send us a comment or a or ask us a question here. It's a level up and we can shoot you helen's details and stuff, but it's a great book. Leadership, eq for the everyday leader or leadership for the everyday leader is that?
Speaker 1:right leadership, eq. Everyday leadership for the everyday Leader Is that right.
Speaker 2:Leadership, eq, everyday Leadership for the Everyday Leader. Yeah, and yeah, check Helen out. She is on Instagram, keeps it very on the down low. Yeah, incredible human being. I absolutely can't thank you enough, helen, for our friendship and, like I said, what you've brought to our family and that since we've met, it's been absolutely incredible and, as usual, I hope you've got a lot of listening to this podcast today. Look, we want to continue to be Australia's number one construction industry podcast, so please share, comment, like Everyone on your work sites, everyone you know, make sure they're listening to this podcast and we look forward to seeing you on the next one. Are you ready to build smarter?
Speaker 1:live better and enjoy life.
Speaker 2:Then head over to livelikebuildcom, forward slash, elevate. To get started, everything discussed during the level up podcast with me, duane pierce, is based solely on my own personal experiences and those experiences of my guests. The information, opinions and recommendations presented in this podcast are for general information only, and any reliance on the information provided in this podcast is done at your own risk. We recommend that you obtain your own professional advice in respect to the topics discussed during this podcast.