Level Up with Duayne Pearce
I take on the role of an authoritative voice that fearlessly communicates truths drawn directly from my lived experiences. With a genuine sense of ownership, my insights are free from any hidden agendas – they truly belong to the audience. My stories and journey add remarkable value, the key now lies in harnessing its power effectively to help others.
My purpose is to create a new residential building industry. My mission is to inspire unshakable self-confidence in my colleagues in the industry, empowering them to orchestrate prosperous, enduring, and lucrative businesses that bring exceptional projects to fruition for our clients.
My goal is to foster a deeper comprehension among clients about the identity and functions of builders, redefining their perceptions.
Level Up with Duayne Pearce
Tough Love Turned Me Into the Builder I am Today.
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Josh Murray from JM Built joins us in the shed this week with a very candid recollection of how as an apprentice, his boss forged him into the builder he is today.
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When you're an apprentice you're like oh, this guy's just grinding my gears. The turnover feeds the problem. I don't expect my apprentices to do anything I won't do on site either.
Speaker 2:I think numbers are very misunderstood. After my apprenticeship I was like I owe this guy so much. Your wealth is created on how you spend money, not how you make money.
Speaker 1:Success for me isn't making more and more money. All jobs have profit if you're doing things right. All jobs have profit if you're doing things right.
Speaker 2:G'day guys. Welcome back to another episode of Level Up. We are back in the shed this afternoon for another cracking episode, something a little bit different today. If you're watching this on YouTube or Instagram wherever you're seeing it you'll notice that I've got my arm in a sling because I cut half my finger off last week. So hopefully we'll get through this podcast and, yeah, it won't be in too much pain or whatever. But I appreciate all the shout outs from everyone that watches the podcast. It was absolutely unbelievable how many people reached out to me over the weekend, so I really appreciate that.
Speaker 2:But getting onto today's episode got a real quiet achiever here with us today. Today's episode um got a real quiet achiever here with us today. Um, that I think it's going to be good to dive into and, uh, dig a little bit deeper into how he's got to where he is. But, um, josh murray from jm built. How are you, mate? Thanks for having me, dwayne. So I just made sure I got the name right because I thought it might have been bill, but he said bill.
Speaker 1:Bill was already gone yeah, that was one of probably the first things in business is you go to the accountant and register your name and you're like what's left, and then that's where we went.
Speaker 2:You're like me, mate. Just DPS construction is like pretty, not very creative.
Speaker 1:There wasn't much going on when I first started. It was just like yeah, let's just get a business name and have a go.
Speaker 2:So, mate, I'm really keen to dive into your story because you do some cracking jobs and you're a very quiet guy, from what I can tell, and you keep to yourself a little bit and you're doing incredible work. So where's it all come from?
Speaker 1:I think, business-wise, I've watched my old man for my whole life. Is he in the industry? No, he's not in the industry, which is crazy. He's just a sole trader and I just watched him grow his business. Running a business, I think, is there's just so many things that you can do for your own life. You gotta take it seriously and go into it. But I think building for me it wasn't. I wasn't called to building. I wasn't like I'm gonna be a builder.
Speaker 1:At age eight I, um, I left school, ended up like could have gone to university but, yeah, deferred, worked for my dad who's an auto electrician for like a year and he kind of said, mate, what are you doing? You got to do an apprenticeship or go to uni. And at that point I was like I'd spent so much time in school learning stuff that I didn't think I needed in life and I was like I think I'm gonna do a trade, did work for my dad for probably a year and a half and then I really just didn't. I just went this isn't for me. He wanted it was big pressure to take over the business and I was like, nah, I just I wasn't. I could do the work easily, remembered everything he taught me. Yeah, but I just I knew I was good, I was good with my hands, so I did a trial in carpentry and then I went yeah, this is what I wanted to do and building houses seemed more up my alley and then got an apprenticeship which kind of also went badly as well.
Speaker 1:At the start Was that locally in Brisbane, so back then group like all trades had just kicked off. Oh, yeah, so I went into all trades and got in with like a big project home builder. It was a crew, they had like multiple apprentices and everything was just screaming and yelling and get this done. They didn't care. And then I did that for about eight months and watched just apprentices coming and going every week going is this, the industry, like this is wild. And then there was a local builder back at Elchester and I started telling him about my experiences and he was like we might have a guy leaving in a couple of months If he does jump on board and see if you can get out of that mess. So, yeah, yeah, I just went. Oh, I'm gonna take this. So got on with mike and he, um, yeah, he taught me everything we needed. Um, sorry, getting emotional here, um going back to the past, but yeah, mike.
Speaker 2:I think that's awesome, mate, because I like, I'm like you, like I am so grateful for what my bosses like. At the time, I didn't appreciate as much as I think I should have but when I think back now like I'm so grateful for the skills that they've given me, especially. I'm not sure if you listen to a recent podcast we do with craig stewart.
Speaker 1:We talked about a lot of the yeah, so that was a big one. Like for me, mike, like when you're an apprentice you're like, wow, this guy's just grinding my gears. Yeah, after my apprenticeship I was like I owe this guy so much. Yeah, um, yeah, and he the way his career ended, was it's quite bad as well for him.
Speaker 2:Yeah, did he um like have you ever reached out to him and told him that um?
Speaker 1:probably not because, like I'm a man bad communicator, but, um, yeah, like I owe him and another boss of ours, richard, like the world really. Um, mike taught me everything, taught you how to like. He taught you how to like think for other people early on, which, when you're at a third year apprentice and he would he would make himself the apprentice and like make you be the boss, which was like it was pretty hard, yeah. And when you're a third year, you're like, oh, this is so much stress. But when, when you go out to be a carpenter, like I think a lot of guys these days aren't learning that to think for other people all day, they just want, all right, is that my role for the day? Should I, should I do this? Should I do that? But a good chippy, like, if you're working the team you should be thinking about, all right, am I keeping x, y and z? Are they busy in the corner over there?
Speaker 2:yeah and um, but every trade, like every trade, I don't know. I know I piss people off when I say this, but I, I think our industry is full of people that should not be qualified, but they, they, just everyone thinks it's, it's a time thing, like you do your three or four years and that's it, you're you're a qualified person.
Speaker 1:But yeah, no, because when I finished my time. It was like mike was like there was those incentives were coming off to sign you off early, and um, he was just like, well, what am I going to benefit out of it? And I'm like 100, like, yeah, what are you going to benefit out of? Like you'll pay me more or whatever. And I, I understood that there. And then I was like, yeah, it's a business decision. Four-year apprenticeship, yeah. But yeah, it was like I think the way the industry works, like if you, if you come out of your time, like there's just so much you've got to learn, and I'm very wary when we hire guys and guys are like obviously just out of their time, a lot of them are chasing the dollar, like trying to catch up on their apprenticeship, which, yeah, I think these days they're earning quite good money. They earn ridiculous money.
Speaker 2:But everyone it's another topic that really shits me. Like people just expect to get paid more and expect their employees to pay for their lifestyle. Yeah, pretty much Like everyone. Like I say this to people all the time now like getting ahead in life, whatever you think is wealthy, it's not about what money you make, it's about what money you spend.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And it doesn't matter if you're someone that earns $200 a week or $2 million a week. Your wealth is created on how you spend money, not how you make money. And it really suits me that apprentices especially think that just because they've signed that piece of paper off, yeah, they can go straight onto the tradies.
Speaker 1:Yeah salary so, yeah, I think that's that's something I'm struggling with, with the generation coming through. Like I'm a bit younger than you, but 39 I think I was still raised under the last of the yeah, the taskmasters, but I think, um, yeah, there's just a lot of everyone just thinks we owe them something now as a boss. Yeah, like, I think a couple of podcasts ago you touched on the christmas party thing was like what are we going to give you? Where am I going to take you? It's like what are you going to give me?
Speaker 1:yeah, there's like six of you employed, or yeah, what did you get me? A carton of beer.
Speaker 2:It's like it's just a different way the world operates and, look, I think it is what it is. But I really like I just really appreciate that I was able to learn in that time period, yeah, but the the flip side of that is, I really feel for young people, like probably in the last 10 to 15 years and right now coming through their time, I think it's really difficult, like something I've really highlighted lately and I'm really trying hard to work in my team. Like I know there'll be some people out there that have worked for me over the years that would hear this and go bullshit, like that's not what it was when I was there and I get that, yeah, but I'm so focused now on taking the pressure off my team, like don't worry about the time, don't worry about the money, like yes, it's got to be done efficiently and stuff, but we have to put team a time into our apprentices because if we don't, it just puts more pressure on everyone.
Speaker 2:So we've got to slow down and spend more time with them. A hundred percent.
Speaker 1:Like touching on, like through my apprenticeship. I couldn't have been more fortunate to be the only apprentice, so, yeah, anything that the tradesmen were doing, they're teaching me. Yeah, and yeah, I've tried to do that in my business as well. Like, I've got two apprentices now that are at the same point, which I will try to avoid I just not having them at the same level, so they get their own care and training each year. Um, but yeah, in the past we've only ever had one, so we can really like, in that three and a half years or whatever they're getting signed off in now yeah teach them as much as we can yeah, we're pretty similar.
Speaker 2:Like I, I don't like to have any more than one apprentice for every sort of two to three tradies like it. Actually, it quite annoys me when I see builders that will have one tradie and four.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I see a lot of crews these days, with a lot of young kids running big jobs yeah but um, yeah, and, but then same again. Like I don't expect my apprentices to do anything I won't do on site either, like um from bailing out mud out of a pier hole yeah, yeah, it's got to be done.
Speaker 2:It doesn't matter what level if, whether you're a director or yeah supervisor, or like the owner, like whoever like it's, it's got to be done you're just getting into it.
Speaker 1:So if, if they don't have that attitude, and well, they quickly learn that I'll do it, and then I think if they see me in the mud with them, they'll get a bit of respect and they're like, yeah, well, I should be doing it yeah so, and then I'm fortunate enough to have hired one of the guys I did my time under as well, and, um, yeah, I'll be trying to keep jade unemployed till till the day he dies, like he's just so he taught you, yeah, and now you've put him on as like a supervisor or lead carpenter or something yeah, so he's my lead carpenter and um supervisor, but he just, he just loves being on the tools, like, yeah, every weekend he's total tools or whatever, buying whatever he needs to buy.
Speaker 1:But I don't know if I was supposed to say that, but, um, he I've, I would give him the avenue to be a supervisor, but he just loves, just loves working and um, I've said that to him.
Speaker 2:I said, mate, if you're 60 and you're still driving gear around for us yeah, yeah, I think it's important to highlight for, like people to feel comfortable to know that it's okay to to stay a carpenter or yeah, all those types of things as well, and I like a lot of our jobs now there's a lot of high spec and he'll push back on me and I don't want to read that and I get that and but he's our go-to man for problem solving.
Speaker 1:So I'm like, yeah, I'm fine with whatever avenue he wants to take, but he's just so loyal and I know he's really good with our apprentices like teaching them how to look after houses tools I think every business needs to get. You've got to find that guy and try to try to look after them, because they're important yeah, do you find with those like we've?
Speaker 2:we've got a couple of those guys, but I find those like, as good as they are they're, they're really hard on the younger guys because they just expect so much of them so yeah, he's, he's, he gives them a hard time, but it's it's.
Speaker 1:It's tough love, but it's not mean love.
Speaker 2:Yeah, but yeah, I think it's hard like young people don't?
Speaker 1:like no, they either take it one way or go the other. Yeah, um, but I think when they see how much time he'll take to teach them something, when that what they don't know, then they'll take a bit of ribbing for yeah, there's very like.
Speaker 2:Resilience is almost getting buried, like common sense, isn't it? There's very little resilience from people like you said, like they, they take it one way or the other yeah, it's not, um, they don't see that that could just be.
Speaker 2:That's the type of person they are. Or, and I think, like I try and really explain to my team now and my younger guys, like it's there's a lot of pressure, like the jobs have to be done, yeah, to a certain level of quality. They've got to be done in a certain time frame. You've you've got other trades coming and going that things have to be ready for. You've got clients expectations to live up to. Then, obviously, as a business owner, things have to be done or you don't make money. So there's like everybody has pressure on them. And a lot of the time when you get people in your business like lead carpenters and supervisors and things that take their jobs really seriously, they can let that pressure build up and then they take that pressure out on the younger guys. And that's another thing that I'm really trying hard to work with my team on like it doesn't have to be like that, like we just we've got to. Sometimes you've got to slow down to go forward. Yeah 100.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think I think the deadlines of the job, like we really I'm not, I'm not up. The guys like every day, like you had to achieve, had to achieve that. Like I kind of I try to price my jobs as in I know that if I was there it should take me that, but they're never going to do it as quick as me. Um, but, yeah, I don't, I don't ride my guys saying we have to achieve this today, but I think they definitely know that like seven to four, they're there to work. Yeah, um, don't, don't be dicking around on site. Yeah, I'm not, I'm not going to give you a hard time. If you're giving me a hard day's work, I'll well, it's about value, isn't it?
Speaker 2:yeah, like it's one of the most common like, whenever I talk about on the podcast and we do teasers um relating to um, hourly rates or people's pay and things, it's one of the hot topics that everyone start like we'll ask questions.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I love I love jumping on facebook builders and seeing that.
Speaker 2:It just blows my mind and like the way I deal with everything now in all businesses is I basically just tell people look, I'll pay you whatever you want. If you want 200 bucks an hour, I'll pay you 200 bucks an hour. But do you know, if I pay you 200 bucks an hour, you need to be making my business 600 to 800.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think a lot of people out there like it's the human nature to look after yourself first but, it just a lot of people just need to realize hey, am I making my boss money? There's my worth, but then he's employing me. There has to be a benefit to my wage, yeah.
Speaker 2:Well, if the company's not making money, they're not going to have a job.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so I think that's for me like scaling up and all the staffing issues and stuff like that is always'm not I'm not the biggest risk taker out there, but um, numbers, to me is is the big one. So, yeah, we kind of so how did you this?
Speaker 2:this is I love this topic. I love the numbers, like how did you um, have you done anything?
Speaker 1:mentoring, coaching, learning to get to know your numbers, or it's trial and error so the first couple of years were definitely trial and trial and error and it was like I think I just kept palming it off like, oh yeah, you're just a small business and each year you'll do better and better. And then I think I got to five years and I was like shit, I could be just working for someone. Just what am I doing all these?
Speaker 1:hours looking at the numbers and going fuck my carbon is earning the same amount as I am yeah, and then like we turn 10 years next month and the last two years I've really been focusing on one. Our quoting system has just turned around and then, just knowing the numbers of all of our overheads and just yeah, feedback from our accountants and she'll be saying you've got to raise operating expenses here and there and what we're at. And I haven't done any like business mentoring. We've recently joined a company in Melbourne and it's all like about entering our weekly data in, because I was like at a point at 10 years I was like, okay, I can keep running this same show for the rest of my life or we can just keep getting better. One percent a year, that's what we need to do, whether I'm off the tools or wherever the business goes from here, but like we can build good houses. But at the end of the day, the numbers are what matters for your family, the um for everyone that's listening.
Speaker 2:Go and check out their instagram jm built. They bloody do great work, but numbers are incredibly important. I think numbers are very misunderstood. Yeah, um, in our industry, um, from everything from people understanding, like, the hourly rates they need to pay people and then understanding, like, if you're paying someone a certain amount, what you actually need to be charging them out at um. Then there's obviously all the quoting. Um, like our software quote is is going nuts because it comes with a huge, big preset list of categories and items for trades and builders, because I know that's one area I uh really not struggle with, but just quoting was always starting from scratch and so there's quite often things that I'd miss here and there, whereas now we know, like, if you start with the biggest list possible, everything that could possibly ever go in a house and delete items that you don't need, it's a far better way than trying to think, oh shit, what do I need?
Speaker 2:oh, like, otherwise, you just it doesn't matter how many times you flick through the plans, you just miss stuff. Like so that's the next thing. Like quoting is like I think, underrated, yeah, and that's why we, like in live life, build with our elevate members. We do our paid as a consultant process, so, um, you get involved and you're paid to put the time into investing into the client and knowing what's going on.
Speaker 2:And then, when it comes to running costs of a business, like we know now from all of our data, like over 80% of builders are trading insolvent because they're just taking money from the business Like they're not paying themselves salary. They don't even know how to work out what salary they should be paid. Nine times out of ten they're working for the same or less than what they're paying carpenters, and it's the same in any trades-based business. You get a lot of plumbers and sparkies and things that are working for the same money or not much more than what they're paying their tradies.
Speaker 1:I know when you first start. For me, I was just always pay all the workers, pay all the materials, and then I was like whatever was left? And then I was like I've got to build up my working capital. So there was those first few years of sacrificing. But now it's at a point when you know what floats your company, when you're getting below a point, you're like all right, are we 30 days from a draw like it's, yeah, it's. Do you pay yourself a salary? Yeah, yeah. So I pay myself weekly with the boys on the pay run.
Speaker 2:Yeah, um you've got to treat. I think I think some people struggle with that because they they're like oh, I'm the business owner, like I, just I can just pull the money out of the business. Like you, you've really got to get in the mindset that you are an employee to the business yeah, like it's not an astronomical figure, but it's.
Speaker 1:I just class myself as a carpenter pay, pay myself a wage, just as like they do, as the pay run, and then, oh mate I need to have talked to you about that yeah, we need.
Speaker 2:You need to figure out the role you're playing and then pay yourself accordingly oh, yeah, so we still.
Speaker 1:we still access the money through the through the year for myself and talk to the accountant when to pull it out. But yeah, each week I'm paid as a wage with the boys. There's no like, oh, I'm not paying myself a year. Yeah, like we're running at a point where I get paid weekly.
Speaker 2:Yeah, like just because it's your business doesn't mean you don't get paid a salary.
Speaker 1:No no.
Speaker 2:Ultimately, you want to pay yourself a salary, cover all your company overheads and your company makes a profit. Yeah, and that's a successful business. Yeah, that's a sustainable business 100.
Speaker 1:And then I think I think this, the the runs on the board in our industry is it's such a long time, like the first couple of years, you're like, holy shit, I've got, I'm learning how to build houses for one, because I've just like, now I'm a builder. And then then you slowly realize, all right, there's not that much money left in this than I thought it was. And then your mind well, if you're my way inclined, your mind turns into there needs to be more juice in the squeeze here, and so the numbers is more important.
Speaker 2:So it's a I feel like again, it's it's the same for all tradies, builders, even architects, designers like a lot of architects, designers actually struggle to make money. They don't understand their costs and those types of things. But like I feel like with builders, it's everything's exaggerated because you're dealing with such big numbers. So if you're like this is where I got caught out, Like I definitely didn't know my numbers and like basically went from getting my builder's license to, within three years, turning over eight, nine million dollars, yeah, and so, even though I was nowhere near pricing the jobs correctly, I used to just write line items down, like do all my quoting on pieces of paper had no idea whatsoever, like I was doing what it's always talked about, like just throwing the 10% on.
Speaker 1:I think the mentality of the public like is well, you signed up $9 million worth of work, Dwayne, you earned 900 grand this year.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's like Not knowing that it actually took out of that 9 million, it actually took 1.7 million to actually run the business. Yeah, so it's, yeah, I think, but because because the number's so big, like you, so you you start doing jobs and then you you start employing people and then you do more jobs and so the turnover feeds the problem.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so a lot of I believe a lot of builders go their entire career by doing this turnover they focus on the turnover and each year their turnover grows a bit and they get bigger jobs, yeah, and they pull a bit of money out of the company here and there, and they manage just to just scrape through their career and own a house, own the cars and have a reasonable lifestyle. But they've, they've, they've lived their entire life and their entire career worried about cash flow, struggling to have money and pay bills. Yeah, and it's purely because the turnover's been there and so it's this vicious cycle. And then everyone thinks, oh shit, I'm struggling, I need to make more money, I need more turnover, but turnover's not the answer no, I think.
Speaker 1:Once you know the size of your business and you speak to your accountants like, you know your break evens, you know what you need to turn over for the year as a business. But it doesn't mean the little $200,000 job around the corner has as much profit in it as that 1.3 million dollar job that took you the whole year. Yeah, so you just for for us, like we look at what we should try to ideally hit for the year and it's not about, yes, we have to be on these luxury homes, is it? Does it fit our schedule? Is it the right client? Does it suit our location? And then, yeah, obviously like, price it accordingly if they're going to get the quality and the service we give them, like they're going to.
Speaker 2:Obviously it costs, costs, what it costs if you want to build with us I love like it we're talking about before we started recording, but um, you just touched on it then again.
Speaker 1:Like I love that you've set boundaries, yeah, like I think early on you were just, you're just like where's the next job, who is it, where's it going to be? You, just, you're just taking it. But I think, as you go on like if you, if you were starting out again and you knew, if you knew better ways, you'd listen to advice from builders like yourself. But, um, yeah, once you obviously get to a point like we're 10 years in, you don't want to be 10 years in and still like where's my next job? How much do I need next month to cover that? Like you should have a system by now that things should be getting easier. And yeah, you don't want, you don't want to be like, oh, I'll have to work, I have to take that job on because we've got a gap.
Speaker 2:Like you should have time to plan, time, to quote yeah, work, work yourself out months in advance so like there's things you just touched on, like knowing the area you want to work in, knowing the type of client you want to work for, yeah, even like you were saying, like figuring out how many jobs you can fit in the year, like doing those simple steps just takes the pressure off, doesn't it?
Speaker 1:yeah, I think I don't like putting myself in a point where we've got plenty of work on the table and go oh josh, here's this awesome lead, here's a million dollar house. We need it done now. Um, we're not about all right. Let's go hire six guys and take on that million dollar house. It's, it's not our process. Oh, we build up our employees, train them how we want things done. I think if you go into business to take on as much work as you can and just rapidly hiring staff here and there it's, I don't know. That's my opinion. Oh, it's 100%, millions of builders probably doing it.
Speaker 2:Well, you only got to see all the ads on social media. Now Every marketing company is trying to get into our industry and then you got so like I feel like in the last, even just the last three months. There is so many people calling themselves coaches, mentors, trainers, and in in our industry. A lot of them are young people that don't have the runs on the board and may have had a couple of years, or they think they've had success yeah, but they haven't really been in business long enough to make it through hard times or know their numbers clearly and all those types of things, and so you got all this noise out there. But the one thing I hate seeing is like everyone seems to be like just market, market, market, grow, grow, grow, increase your turnover yeah, so, and that's just the biggest recipe for more stress, more disaster, less money yeah, like 100 bigger hole in the ground.
Speaker 1:I think if someone's not the mentor, like say, you've got your program, obviously it's, it's definitely helping a lot of builders. But if you're in the mindset of, like I, I've got to get bigger, I've got to get more money, and you just rapidly go into that, like it's just such a quick spike decline with the amount of money we deal with, you can, yeah. So I think, yeah, you need to, you need. So that's what the like, the business course we're doing now is. It's really like small numbers. Like you look at your staff costs, you look at your, your whip and you're like, okay, we've got that, we can. We could raise hourly rates here to hire that guy.
Speaker 1:So it's more, we're work in progress yeah, so we have three things that we fill out and I think it just it gives you like that forecasting tool, which which you're big on as well. So I think if you're diving into this industry, thinking it's just all about throwing it out on seek and getting six guys it's, it's the wrong way about it it's funny.
Speaker 2:I like this is a real life example. Um, literally two days ago um had a young builder called up to do a inquiry call about our live life build elevate program. Um has a big tax bill. Um just come back from overseas needs to grow the business again. Has only been in business a couple few years. Um needs to get systems and processes in place. Doesn't doesn't know who his ideal client is, doesn't know what his numbers are like, just everything that I know we could help him. Yeah, yeah, and to me it's a no-brainer. And then I get a message yesterday afternoon saying oh, dwayne, thanks very much for your time. I'm going with this other course because I need to really focus on my marketing. Yeah and yeah, exactly like I just said. Then it's very hard, I think, in our industry because there's so many people making noise that have never run a building business or succeeded running a building business or been in building business for 10, 15 years, and so everything sounds, yeah, nice and glossy and rosy and this.
Speaker 1:I think there's just this so much smoke and mirrors in our industry. Yeah, it's insane. When I first started, you get caught up in I think instagram was just kicking off and you it was has heaps of positives and heaps of negatives and you're like man, how is that guy getting so many jobs and what's going on here?
Speaker 2:but yeah, wait, I know, I know builders that are spending like they're turning over $3 to $5 million and I know from what the conversations I have with them that I can tell instantly now if someone's talking shit and that they don't know their numbers and stuff. Yeah, and they're spending $100,000 to $150,000 on social media marketing.
Speaker 1:They email me every, they pepper me and I just I look at what they want to charge you for the week and I'm like, for what? It's just a little post.
Speaker 2:I can do that, do that myself but, like anyone that spends that sort of money is going to have a lot of work. Yeah, but a lot of work doesn't mean you're making money it doesn't. And then nine times out of ten. It means you're more stressed and you're actually going backwards.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you're just creating a bigger hole for you to fall in, and I think the older I get, like it's success for me isn't making more and more money, it's freeing up my time. Yeah, 100%, like 10 years of like my boy he just turned six and like it's a hard slog building industry and two young boys yeah, but yeah, getting your time back is more important, yeah, at this stage in my life, than earning more money, I think.
Speaker 2:Mate, I feel for you. I feel for you and I think it's really great that you're so aware of that. Yeah, because I've talked about it heaps of times, I feel sorry for my oldest daughter because I hardly saw her for the first couple of years because that the building industry, just um, and not knowing how to run my business just took me away from her. But it's, it's one another one of those things like I'd love to hear your theory on it, but, like everybody that reaches out to me wants time, yeah, but they won't invest the time to get that time.
Speaker 1:Yeah, like you're not going to work a small amount of hours, like I'm not saying like you can do like 20 hours a week and it's going to be gangbusters for you, but you're still going to put the hard work in. But just that constant thinking about work and scheduling in an hour to yourself a week, or making sure we do like I kids kid drop off each morning, that's big, that's awesome. My wife goes to work three days a week, so is she didn't want like she don't want to let her career go down. Like she's quite successful as well, so that's been my driver is like making sure keeping everyone happy.
Speaker 2:Um, but yeah, obviously you're going to business to earn more money, but like your life needs to be easy as well, yeah, so it's insane, like we, we know, like from everything we have and we do now, like you, like time is everyone's biggest frustration, like and the reality is that it's just they're not prioritizing their time correctly and when you personal schedule and you prioritize your time I don't know if I've ever talked about on this podcast, actually, but I'll talk about now like there's this have you heard the story about the glass jar?
Speaker 2:no have I said this show on this podcast probably 100 times. All right, I'm going again. But um, for some I'd heard this story 100 times and I don't know why it just it never resonated with me and it does now, because I understand it. But basically, like someone gives you a glass jar and gives you a pile of rocks and says fill the jar up, put as much as you can in there, you put all the rocks in there until it's overflowing. You cannot fit another rock in there, yeah, and they ask you is it full? You say yeah, well, it can't fit anymore in there. Then they give you pebbles. So then you pour the pebbles in, the pebbles go and they fall in the gaps all around the bigger rocks and you say it's like it's full now. And then they give you sand. You tip sand into it and the sand fills all the little crevices up. You think it possibly cannot fit any more in it. And then they give you a jug of water and you pour the water and the water just soaks in between everything. And now that that jar is full and I don't know at what point this really resonated with me.
Speaker 2:But that's how we all live our lives. But most people are only putting in the big rocks. They have all this other stuff to fill their jar but they feel that they because all their big rocks which is their wrong priorities normally, that they don't have any time. Yeah, and so the way I plan and what we teach our guys and members in Elevate now like personal scheduling, is the key to your success. So you've got to treat so my personal time is my big rocks.
Speaker 2:So my wife and I do 12, 18 months personal plans. We plan all our family holidays, long weekends. We leave weekends free for catching up with friends and stuff. But family and personal are our big rocks. Take kids school, pick it, pick kids up, cook dinners, all those types of things.
Speaker 2:And most people freak out because they're like, oh shit, if, if I put everything I want to do in there, I'm not going to have any time left to do what I need to do to keep life turning, keep the cash flow coming and all those types of things. But once you've laid out a calendar, because the other, the other really scary thing is when you do this the first time, when you have a big 12 month calendar on your wall and you go through it. So our thing is like if the kids are off, we're off, so all school holidays crossed out on out. And when you've got it on a big wall and you're highlighting all this and you're like holy shit, that only leaves that amount of time. And then you put in the long weekends you want to have, and then you might put in the date nights or the days you want to start later, whatever, and then everything just keeps coming back and back and back.
Speaker 2:And then, once you've got your big rocks in there, you and then, once you've got your big rocks in there, you've got to fit in everything else around it and it is unbelievable, like I know myself with my personality and persona and those types of things like I, I need structure, yeah yeah, I think default diary like it is massive, like in our industry. You can just go on this whirlwind of wasted time every day well, everyone wants to hold, like everyone, everyone, like you'd know, like as soon as you walk onto a job site even if people have, masses are just he's here yeah, even if everyone's got the information, they know what they're doing.
Speaker 2:Yeah, they'll come and chew your ear off and you'll waste half a day before you know it. But it's incredible once you get those big rocks in, get all your personal stuff in there and then actually plan it out. So, like my, I talk about this all the time. Like my, my calendar's done from 5 am in the morning to 9 pm at night, and people think it's crazy, but I block out time for myself, I block out time like camille and I block out time to spend together time with the kids, do personal activities and things. But if I don't have that structure, yeah, I lose so much time, even things.
Speaker 1:For me now the diary thing is is where we're headed um.
Speaker 2:It's just you gotta just do it on google may on your phone like share it. Do it like highly recommend you do it with your, like your partner. So camille and I see each other's calendars. Yeah, mate, there's no checking.
Speaker 1:No, if one of us wants to do something is the note still on the fridge of when we're supposed to be going to dinner or whatever. But but yeah, diaries, the big, the big goal for me this year is running out of a structured diary and stop stop wasting as much time and sticking to, sticking to my schedule and yeah, and then put the time in.
Speaker 2:For me, the next thing after personal is, well, family. I should say Family is my big rocks. Yeah, the next thing for me is me personally, like training, catching up with mates, working on myself, personal development. And then it's business. Business is my sand and water and it's incredible how much business you can fit in when your days are scheduled, yeah, and you're focused. Even like quoting is a big one for me. I I think it's every builder and tradies nightmare. Like you just dread that time in the office that you've got to spend quoting. So like in my schedule it's it's locked in there like an hour here, two hours there, like.
Speaker 2:So camille will put in my schedule two hours on such and such job, air on such such job, and I just know that that when I'm in the office, that time there I've got a quote.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean, for quite like quoting is like it's another conversation as well. But like in in the first days, or builders just think they allocate the hate quoting because they're quoting with such like are they quoting to win the job they could? There could be four builders in it, so they've already got 25 chance of winning the job. So all of a sudden you hate quoting because you're not winning your work. So if you've got a structure to your quoting system, like you, you when your client touches base with you and you've got that system in place, that you've done the feasibility, and are they going to jump onto your process and like, obviously you've got your pack process, we have a similar little thing. But for me, now quoting, are you getting paid for your quotes?
Speaker 1:yeah, so we have a little fee structure yeah, proposal however, yeah, that's how we like to call it as well. Um, but yeah, like in the past, that's kind of what broke me. That covid era was just I was just trying to get bigger and just quoting and quoting, and quoting and trying to get work from that designer and reaching out to that designer, and I just I just got to the end of the year and I was like what the hell did I just do all that for like that's why I hate quoting so much, like I'm no one has any idea how much time this is taking. Yeah, and so then that was that big light bulb moment. I was like this is my process now and I don't need to focus on quoting now. It's like, well, when the client comes to us, it's like, well, I'm invested in your quote now, because you're invested, we're going to make this relationship work. And quoting for me now is like, but how much better is the entire relationship?
Speaker 2:yeah, like you get that investment up front, you get more involved through all the design process. Like you build trust, you build.
Speaker 1:Respect you build transparency and if you're stuck in that tender situation like a guy who's tendering isn't taking his eight tradesmen to your house on a renovation and taking the time he's got no time, he's just looking about how he can come in the cheapest to win it yep 100 and um so it blows my mind.
Speaker 2:But like people, so many people just think that tenders process is the way to go like, yeah, we had.
Speaker 1:We had a few designers call us in the last six months and the minute that tender word comes out, it's like no, it's, there's enough work out there, I'll happy to do a bathroom reno. Over tendering on that huge job. It's just yeah. It's not about the size of the job, but it's that process. If the client values me coming to their house, solving all their problems and quoting the job what they want done, that's more important to me than versing five builders that don't know their numbers. Who's trying to break into that market? It's just a waste of time and I think a lot of guys need to, just they need to have that light bulb moment going.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's just so much wasted time.
Speaker 2:And time is but how much does it? Like it's not only time like I, I am so in love with our pack process like it just, I believe every single time we do it we're just getting better and better and better. But, um, like I had a really great example just today. We had a design meeting um with a client and a building designer and this particular project it's it's a large home, it's to to um house a young family and their um parents yeah, really, really special home. And like, we've guided it with um, our project sheets and our costs the entire way and made them very aware what we think it's going to cost. But they've wanted to keep pushing the boundaries, um, to see exactly what they want will cost. So the way I like to talk about our pack process yours probably similar. Like I'm not there to control it, I'm there to educate the client, yeah, on what they want or asking for will possibly cost, and then it's up to them to educate myself and the designers what means value to them and so on this particular project, like, even though we kept telling them, hey, that's going to be pushing your bud, like your project span, they wanted to get there.
Speaker 2:So the designer finished or did a preliminary design, we did a first round of costings and I didn't even get the first round of costings finished and, uh, I called the designer, art, we had a chat, called the client up and basically just said look it's. It's going to far exceed your pro, what you're hoping to spend, um, with all the things that you're hoping to get. Yeah, let's have a meeting and we'll talk through it. So we had a meeting, we talked through it, I explained to them the way that it was heading and, from the things that I'd already priced, gave them an estimate of where I thought it would go to. And they're like oh no, look, we don't want to waste your time or our time, let's have a look at what we can change. And they're still getting the same floor plan, the same size house, still going to be an incredible home.
Speaker 2:But we've been able to pull back. Like originally it was going to have all off-form concrete ceilings, walls, like there's over a million dollars worth of concrete in this place. Yeah, right. But so the designer presented this design this morning, which is still an incredible home. It's just the main structural materials have changed. We're still going to have the same joinery, the same appliances, plumbing, fixtures and all those types of things. But that would never have happened in a tender scenario. No, in a tender scenario they would have drawn their their wish list. They would have wasted three, four, five, ten builders times tendering it to be told three months later that it's twice what they want to spend. And then the the architect or the designer would have charged the client to redesign the whole house.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and this is when people call us now.
Speaker 1:It's like if they've got their da plans, like I kind of like, oh good, you're not too far along, yeah.
Speaker 1:And then like, if they jump on, like the conversation we're getting better at every time selling it to the our customers, but just like if you can't pay a simple couple of thousand dollars to get us on board, like at the end of the day you can have the best drawings on a little piece of paper next year, but you can't get that built unless the builder has can get the budget right.
Speaker 1:And like, if you, if your price is that you need to build it at the end of the day to get a contract price to build it, yeah. So if you can't be at a point where you're valuing that time and the feedback and you just go to tender, like half the time people aren't understanding that half of their stuff on their pretty pages hasn't been included because one, the builder's just racing for the tender and the budget's not really the issue, it's just winning the job first. But yeah, yeah, I think we we're really good on now trying to get the honesty out of the owner saying look, the more open you are about your price, the better your build's going to be, the better your result's going to be. Like you could level up things here, you could reduce things there, whereas if you're stuck in that tender situation, you're just quoting the plans and it's just like I don't, it's I don't think it's good for for anyone like and it's.
Speaker 2:It's quite frustrating because, you see it, it's not just in our residential world like. You see it all over the news and the media all the time, with big government projects and things like the tender process is ruined for everybody. You see these infrastructure projects where the winning tender is $2 billion and then 12 months later it's all over the news oh, the project's still not finished and it's $1.5 billion over budget.
Speaker 1:I understand.
Speaker 2:And.
Speaker 1:I think with your platform, the more the community realizes there's a better way to price residential commercial. Yeah, obviously, commercial is probably a fair way away from it, but residential is where it can start and, yeah, help builders, help the community. Yeah, just a lot, a lot more plans are going to make it from pipe dreams to pieces of paper that never got built.
Speaker 2:It's actually happening I've talked about this before as well like the simplest solution, I believe. Like it blows my mind. I know there's a few um architects, designers, out there that do this, but a lot of them don't. Like I, just I've never been able to work out. If an architect designs a home and it gets built, why don't they contact the client or the builder at the end of the job, check what the final pricing was and then put it on their records that that house, for that that level of finish, that size project, costs this amount of money? Like to me it's just simple. Like if you walk into an architect's office and they've done a hundred projects yeah, and you like that one and it costs five million dollars, why do you think you're going to get it done for three, yeah, yeah, and you like that one and it costs five million dollars, why do you think?
Speaker 1:you're going to get it done for three. Yeah, like we, we do that with our, with our customers. Like it should be easy for them. Like if I show we get a set of plans and I, and then I'll go, well, this job on our social media or website, it costs this. So if you're adding that bigger pool or you're doing this like that's your starting point to achieve that job that we've done in the past, so it just it just gives them more clarity of what I think. They just think they get their piece of paper and there's a square meterage rate, which it's just. That's just another thing.
Speaker 1:But yeah, I think after 10 years, there's just so much to learn as a builder on site. And then then pricing is the biggest thing. And then getting that system in place to support yourself as a business and be confident enough to go to the owner that you're actually wanting to help them get the job. It's not like I have to win this job.
Speaker 1:Like you're in it together, you want to give them a good product and, at the end of the day, if you're overcharging the build like it together, you want to give them a good product. Yeah, and at the end of the day if you're overcharging the build like it's not going to go ahead, so you're just going to get stuck in a circle. So you're pricing it honestly and I think that's like well, how our business is built on, like you're getting priced honestly to get that set of plans built. Like we're not, we're not, we can't build it to that budget because we're squeezing in an extra 50k for ourselves. It's that's what it's going to cost to build and that's what the business costs to run it.
Speaker 2:Yeah it's that simple, like, literally, like if you and that's like I am a hundred percent firm believer like any client that thinks getting multiple prices is going to help their situation is kidding themselves because, like every, it's like our industry is like nothing else, like it's not like going to the supermarket or buying a car or, um, even going to the dentist and things. Like every single builder runs a different business. I mean it's a different structure it's not like you.
Speaker 1:you can still have multiple builders for your set of plans, but instead of saying first port of call, go and price this, have a phone call, have an interview, get to know the builder. Because, yeah, for me another thing too is, like a lot of our jobs now are pushing that eight-month mark, like you want your client to be your friend during the build. It's a long time to be stuck with customers if you're not getting on or you're butting heads. So yeah, like if clients want to shop something out, that's fine, but shop it out in an interview process. I think not a monetary format.
Speaker 2:Yeah, 100%, 100%. So, mate, what do you look for with trades and things on your jobs, or how do you keep up your quality?
Speaker 1:So we've stuck with our trades for a long time. Very rarely are we shopping our plans out to take on new guys because of price. If you've come through our system and you're no longer there, there's probably something that we weren't happy with quality wise or your communication and then, yeah, we really look after our guys. Yeah, like, our tyler and plumber have almost been with us from the start and then we just drum in that this is the quality we want to achieve and then, if they're on board with that, you just give us honest pricing and you're our first port of call for every job, unless you're sick or on holidays or something. But, yeah, building, building that network up, I think, is pretty crucial. Um, I mean, like a lot of builders, you can shop out heaps of stuff and but you won't have that relationship when you you're you've got that plumber for eight years or whatever, and, um, he's going to be there for you because it's got to be a relationship like every, every, like your team, your contractors, your suppliers, like it's got to be relationships yeah.
Speaker 1:So pricing is like I'm I'm always checking their pricing. It's not like they're sending me random numbers because I'm like, well, your last job costs that. Yeah, explain to me why it's more. Yeah, and like I'm always watching their numbers. It's not like they know we've got another job with josh, but, yeah, they give me honest pricing, they're paid straight away and, yeah, quality is the big thing, yeah. So, yeah, we're not trying to just try on you guys here and there. It's. It's all about, yeah, as long as everyone's focus is delivering the best you can possibly do for that house.
Speaker 2:Um, what about like time frames and things like how do you work your time?
Speaker 1:trade. Yeah, so we try to. Once we start the job, like we notify yep, we've won it straight away at contract. And then I kind of just do like a monthly ballpark thing, because not everything works perfectly for us on renovations to the t. But yeah, we like definitely look at the calendar and break it up into those 12 months and then we'll we'll get on the email or phone and say plumber tyler, we're aiming for this month. Yeah, um, you do full job schedules? We're not. We're not at a full job schedule point at the moment just purely because we don't take on huge amounts of work. I've usually got enough time in the pipeline to organise it on the computer and run it that way. But yeah, there is conflicting times every now and then when guys are double booked, but generally the way I look after our trades, they'll be there for us.
Speaker 2:So are you still doing a lot of the admin stuff?
Speaker 1:Yeah, so I'm doing a lot of the admin. I've been on site a fair bit in the past, but now I'm reducing those hours on site as much as possible. Now We've got a good-sized team where I can come and do what I need to do and be on site. But yeah, generally a lot of my stuff now is just scheduling and making sure we're weeks, weeks out, everyone's notified where we're at and telling the boys look, we're aiming for this trade here, focus on this. Um, so that's that's kind of how we do our scheduling now, because I don't a lot of stuff on our jobs. Um, if it's my god, I try to teach our guys to be super flexible and what they're doing for the day like if something can't be finished there, you need to be on it like we can move over to here and keep ourselves busy. Yeah, um, so once our boys are set up on site, they're pretty much there from start to finish. I tell them every day like, don't be ringing me saying this, what can we, we do, because they quickly learn.
Speaker 2:They've got to be thinking ahead. Yeah, and exactly what you say Like you can't be just focused on what you're doing right now. Like you need to make sure there's gear on site in case something comes up. You can't finish that, you can move on to another part.
Speaker 1:So there's always bits and bits. So, yeah, flexibility is a my guys. There's always something to do on site. Don't, don't just be stuck on. Oh, we're completing this cladding this week, yeah, if. If you see that time's going to slow down because we're waiting on something for there, make the call. Let's move to this area, yeah, and go there. Um, but yeah, scheduling's something that I'm going to improve from here, like diary, and scheduling is our goals for the business to improve.
Speaker 2:I'll give you. You some tips, mate, after the podcast. So do you know like, do you know? So what's your role? What's the role in your business?
Speaker 1:I think I wear still way too many hats. Like I'm still. I still don't like being pigeonholed in the office full time. I still love throwing on the nail bag, but like realising now where we're at and the size we're at now that my days need to be spent doing better things. Yeah, and I'm learning that, but I just, I still really love working but, Mate, I need to get you into Elevate.
Speaker 2:We need to identify you.
Speaker 1:I still really love working but yeah, the nail bag is not on this year, it's definitely not. This year has been the big turn for me. Yeah, it's hard, isn't it, to step back from site. So I kind of call myself the supervisor. But then they know when I'm shut down in the office, that's where I need to be. So if I say I'm going home to do office work, I think you're a project manager. Yeah, probably.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you've got to really, because it ties back into what we were talking about before with your numbers. Like you, every everyone in a business needs to have certain roles and tasks and responsibilities and kpis and those types of things, and you like to be able to get your business running efficiently, get your time back, all your scheduling and those types of things. Like you need to track every single hour you do, identify what tasks that gets allocated to and then, like that's how you can get a business very efficient, like when you can. Like the other thing that I like to do and we teach our members in elevate like once you've identified the tasks that you do and what categories they fall under, like start thinking about them in three ways. Like what ones do you love doing and you do every day? Uh, what ones do you do but you're not really efficient at?
Speaker 2:and then, what ones do you? Just you hate and you really would prefer to get someone else to do them. Yeah, and then that's where you can start to really, in your overheads, identify where you need to employ people in the business. So obviously, if it's a supervisor, and that's, that's a site cost. But if it's in a va or administration staff or possibly a project manager, you can work that cost into your overhead cost so that every job moving forward you actually have the money in the business to pay to employ that person and that's going to get your time back. And the reality is it's not just our building industry but it's just businesses in general. Most people are always like when I get the next job, or when I save the next a certain amount of money, or when my bank account's got this figure in it, or like there's all these, what if?
Speaker 2:yeah then I will employ, and reality is that very more often than not, it never gets to that point. You get under pressure so you end up employing them anyway without having the money in the business to pay for them, and then the business owner ends up earning even less because they've got to take out of what they were earning to pay for that new person. Yeah, and it's that vicious cycle. So I, yeah, identifying really clearly what your role is in your business is really important.
Speaker 1:So, yeah, we, we jumped into this system, probably, I think, july last year, and that's yeah, we're, we're turning each month, we're turning turning the wheels for me to get the role that I should be playing. We saw a point. I'm like yep, we've got, we're turning the wheels for me to get the role that I should be playing. We saw a point. I'm like, yeah, we've got the referrals, we've got the workload now. And I'm like now it's time for me to get off site and yeah, I miss the banter of the boys on the site, but yeah, it's big for me now to get that time and organisation now. And that's what we're focusing on now.
Speaker 2:It's hard I and organisation now, and that's what we're focusing on now. It's hard Like I still like feel for it now. Like I think any tradie, any builder, any, I think, designers and architects again would be the same. Like that's what you got into it. Like you're a carpenter, then you became a builder. Like you love the site stuff and, let's be honest, the business stuff is the hardest part.
Speaker 1:I think that's the crazy thing about our industry is it's ever evolving. Like you start your little building business and you're on the tools and then you're hiring people and then then then for me the next stress was like all right now, how do I get enough work to keep my full-time guy employed? I think when I first started, that was my biggest focus was like just making sure I could employ someone was how it was leveling up that way. But, um, yeah, now once, once you have got through all of that, it's definitely about trying to run yourself in an organized fashion and and letting go. And it's taken me a long time to let go and it's, it's happening. It's happening probably slower than it needs to be, but it's happening. And that happening probably slower than it needs to be, but it's happening and that's, that's how it needs to be at least, like I feel like you're very aware what you need to be working on.
Speaker 2:That's definitely a struggle for a lot of people like they. Just they feel like they're just wearing a hundred hats and putting out fires all day, every day, and they just they have no um clarity of where they need to be working on or what directions they need to be taking, and so they just rush, rush, rush, rush, rush.
Speaker 1:I think in the last two years like we had like great business was great, but I was just like looking at myself going, okay, you're 39. You can't sustain this till 55 or whatever. You're doing this wrong. And then that's when I was like having their boys as well yeah so um, quickly just started focusing on numbers and then that was when you were doing pretty good there and then. So now you it's about taking myself away from sight and just making sure guys are educated. Communication, they know what's going on. Stuff's pre-organized.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I'll grab me an iPad, mate, before you go, just remind me and I'll show you some of the systems and processes that we have. Because, yeah, it is amazing when all this ties together and again, that's the whole reason of this podcast Like I want tradies and builders to realize, like it doesn't have to be stressed every day and it doesn't have to be chasing your tail for cashflow all the time. Like it's actually an incredibly rewarding industry when you get all your ducks in a row, you've got your systems and processes, you know your numbers. Like all this, stuff, stuff.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think for young guys coming through like for me, if they're younger once you've, obviously those first few years are going to be hard. This is just business. But once you can get through that it's yeah, work out the system. You need to know that you're quoting properly number one, so that your business is working. But, yeah, you've got to have a systemized business for this industry and that's like it's a it's not. You can't just come in and get a builder's license and say, yep, we're doing this. It is the industry where you have to learn as you go. Yeah, and for things like your systems, it can expedite, speed that up only in beneficial ways for everybody.
Speaker 2:Yeah. So, matt, we'll jump into something else a little bit different that I actually don't think we've ever talked about on this podcast, but you've recently had surgery for skin cancer.
Speaker 1:Yes, this is my second one. So yeah, skin cancer, sun safety is no joke. I've spent a lot of my life surfing and fishing, probably sunbaking a lot on the job site with no shirt on, when I thought that was a good idea. But yeah, I had a little one pop up on my forehead a year and a bit ago and then annual checks and obviously had half my nose cut off last week. So yeah, if you're out there, boys definitely start getting your skin checked and looking into that.
Speaker 2:Because I still see it a lot Like I'm always on people's back and I don't think it's real professional either. I know back in the day I was the same, you'd be on site no shirt on. Yeah, I think that was like that olden day mentality.
Speaker 1:You just saw it. And then it was cool to have a suntan and a lot of my younger guys coming through. They're all loving it, like long sleeve and, yeah, sun protecting, which is great, and I, we're all. I'm all for that after, definitely. And then it's more example for me now them seeing me what's happened to my face at 39. So so you're, you're all good, but yeah, yeah, it wasn't a melanoma or anything, but I'll definitely be in a position now. I need annual checkups, yeah, um, but yeah, it's, it's. Yeah, it's not worth, it's unprofessional and yeah, it's just something that, like, we have a hard enough time in our bodies, um, shoulders, knees, skin cancer will creep up on you, so we might not be focused on that, but yeah, that's another thing we need to worry about now is what made you um?
Speaker 2:what? What was the like? How did you find that first one? Did you decide you just need to start getting checked, or?
Speaker 1:um, no, we went away for christmas and I surfed a bit that holiday and then, um just noticed a mole was a bit scabby looking, was a bit different than the last one, and and then I was like, oh, it didn't look right. And then my age I was like, oh, you know, coming up into starting to do the old people tests like prostate and mole scans, and all that coming up once I turned 40 or whatever. But yeah, I was like I think it's time I get my skin checked. And then, surely enough, had one straight away, away, and I was like how long could I have left that had I not gone? And, um, yeah, so it's definitely something that I think, like, um, I think all my tradies have seen me. In the last week I literally got the tape off my face. Yesterday I was wearing a mask to work, pretty much. Um, yeah, and everyone's like what happened to your face? And um, I'm like, yeah, yeah, sun safety is no joke. Actually it's put your sunscreen on.
Speaker 2:And so what do they like? Have they told you what we should be doing? Like I know they say. Like I remember, I think when I was growing up it was like the slip, slop, slap.
Speaker 1:Yeah, no, the doctor didn't really mention anything about that. I guess it's just sun exposure, like I've probably super accelerated it on my skin, like I've been surfing since I was about 12 and obviously contracting and working in the Sun and doing all that stuff. So, yeah, obviously not everyone's going to be in my case of having that super accelerated skin and sunburn reflection off the water for all those years. But yeah, if you're thinking about like not putting sunscreen on, yeah, it's no joke, it'll happen. I always just thought, nah, she'll be right, but it got me.
Speaker 2:Well, our Tyler, only in the last couple of months, has had one on his lip Similar story to what you just said. He just thought it was a bit of a blister. Or, and on his lip, like a similar story to what you just said. Like he, he just thought it was a bit of a blister, or, um, sore on his lip and it just it wouldn't heal, it kept coming back and, yeah, he thought he better go and get it checked out.
Speaker 1:So the one on my nose wasn't even a, um, a mole, it was just a like a red patch of skin. And then, once they once they noticed it, I hadn't even noticed it. I then I kept looking in the mirror every night and you could see that the skin was a bit flaky on it. I was like, oh yeah, that would have gone undetected. I just thought skin cancer was moles or freckles. But it was just a simple little bit of red skin on the side of my nose. And, surely enough, I've now got half my ear sewed onto my nose. Now, oh right, yeah, so I had skin graft from behind my ear as well. So, yeah, yeah, they took a pretty good chunk out of there yeah, right, yeah, I'd.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I'm the same.
Speaker 1:I always thought skin cancers were more started from moles and freckles and things yeah, so yeah, I definitely had no idea like brushing your teeth in front of the mirror and it's just been sitting there for the last 12 months. Well, it could have just appeared, but yeah, so definitely get checked. Yeah, it's not just moles and freckles, there's other things that they're looking for, and so have you got to get checked more regularly now, or still 12 months?
Speaker 2:They said that I just have to keep doing annual checkups from now. Yeah, yeah, no, definitely. It's something that our industry has gotten better at. Like like you said, you do see a lot of people on site now with long sleeves and um yeah, a lot of my guys now wearing like the fishing buff which in summer, which is good.
Speaker 1:but yeah, like back in those days when I was in my 20s, on a brand new slab and the reflections coming up and you're just getting fried all day, it was like what was I thinking? But it's just yeah, it's just Well it was normal it was just normal, that's just what you did. Yeah, it was just what you did. Your boss and all the other workers were doing it and, yeah, you thought it was good.
Speaker 2:but yeah, yeah. So, mate, where to now for JM Built?
Speaker 1:Yeah, so just want to keep building great houses, having customers really enjoy the experience. Something big for us is making sure our customers have an enjoyable time. Once you, as a builder, get that down, you'll realize how much work it gets you as well. You don't have to be spending money on marketing when your customer is the A-grade marketer um.
Speaker 1:So here we haven't touched on that like so how you've obviously perfected who your preferred client is I think we just like over the years, you just get excited by the phone call but you slowly learn who you get on with and who values your input. And then during that quoting time you realize does a person see you as a number or do they see you as someone they're going to spend that year with? If you're doing some of the big raising builds now, we're on like, yeah, it's close to a year, so it's big for us that I can evaluate the customer now as well. So, yeah, if we're not getting on or having a joke on the job side or communicating like it's, it's just as important for you as the builder and the client likewise to get on with each other. Um, yeah, you just, you trust each other, you have an enjoyable and then at handover, like most of our builds, we're cracking a stubby and having a chat with the builder or they're calling us up and saying, hey, come back, look at our gardens now.
Speaker 2:So what's most more important? The type of job or the client? The client, yeah, a hundred percent. I feel like a lot of tradies and builders chase the project yeah, like chase the architect, chase the flash house chase the big jobs and, yeah, put not enough time and effort into getting to know the client more.
Speaker 1:Yeah, if you yeah, if you if you can work your business around the client, it, like the jobs, will have profit. The jobs, all jobs, have profit if you're doing things right yeah, um bomb. That's a bomb. Yeah, you don't have to. You don't have to chase that two million dollar build to get the flash truck or whatever.
Speaker 2:You just need to run a good business and yeah because really, like, the really awesome part is like when you, when you're connecting with people on that personal level and they're coming to you because of what you're going to deliver them rather than based on the price. It's another thing that helps the overall business. You can do more work, your team is happier, things run better because you're not putting all the time. How many builders and I'm only basing this on my own personal experience 10, 15 years ago Can you imagine how many builders out there that their entire days run off putting out fires with each of their clients Because there's no organization, there's no relationship, there's been no expectation set, they don't know their numbers, and so everything's a shit fight they don't know their numbers and so everything's a shit fight.
Speaker 1:I know as and some of our like some of our customers in the past, the, the quote, the quote and the lead frame from contact to actually break on site can vary, like they might not be ready or things are going, but we never once pressure them. It's it's always the same system, like it's not like we have to get you to contract. It's like, well, if you're going to pay, pay for our system and value our time, look, you can sit on it, put it on ice. However, like ideally, we're trying to work to a calendar and schedule you in, but it's, yeah, it's about the client experience and then when you, when you complete that successful build, that client will rapidly accelerate your leads. More than social media posts and that type of stuff and I got it.
Speaker 2:It blows my mind that builders will invest all this money into getting thousands or tens of thousands or whatever amount of followers and yet most of them are only doing or anything from maybe two to five million dollars turnover. Yeah, like, what is the point of having 30 000 followers, that 28 000 of them are in other states? Yeah, all countries.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's right and, like it just blows my mind like and the more that customer tells their friends or whoever it is, or someone in the street how do they sign up to your process, the quicker they are wanting to jump on it. Yeah, um, it's like well, and I don't like it.
Speaker 2:I think people over complicate, especially a lot of these marketing companies, that, like you, you've just got to do simple things like hashtag the street name or the or the suburb you're working in, or like build a kubaru or build a camp hill or whatever. Like it's not hard, like you. People obviously use social media now to search for like.
Speaker 2:I do think social media is a new word of mouth yeah because even if it's um, like people might drive past your signs or whatever, the first thing everyone's going to do is look up instagram, yeah, and see what sort of profile you have on there. And for me, I I know from the feedback I get from my clients and we've got three years work ahead of us at the moment, or more like we're knocking work back every day. Our clients are focused on the type of job we do, like we do a lot of video, so they like when I first meet clients, they feel like they already know me.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And they don't give a shit about how many files I've got, um and all that rubbish, like they're more worried about what I'm going to deliver them and so that's all you have to focus on. No, and that's that's it.
Speaker 1:Like I'm just as focused on trying to get to know the client in the early days before we dive straight into the pricing. Like, yeah, we're work, slowly working on those numbers, but you can gauge, like, how quickly they want to communicate back to you about your questions to them. Yeah, um, yes, it's a slow process, but once you start learning how to how to get your client base and how it should work, um, yeah, it gives you so much freedom. So how do you have you gotten your client base? So ours has just been like a slow build up of rapport.
Speaker 1:Like we haven't paid for leads and gone into mass tenders or situations like that. We've just kept an open mind on the jobs that we're going to take on and it's just slowly snowballed over the years. And then we've built up this reputation in our little neck of the woods that we're a raise and build renovation builder. Have you paid for, um, photography? I pay for photography once the owners are happy for us to come back, because you look at your website and like so a few things that resonate with me with your website.
Speaker 2:Like you, I think you called the jobs by suburb.
Speaker 1:Yeah either suburb or the street, but yeah, generally a lot of our customers. They don't have the budget that's stretched into full landscaping straight away, so we just stay in touch and when they're ready for us to come back, we go back and document it yeah, but someone can look at your website.
Speaker 2:They can see the areas that you're working. They click on the photos. Photos are great. Yeah, like we, I'm a big believer in, um, like, uh, finished photos a massive asset. Yeah, and we do similar. Like we, um, obviously, like we do photograph release. We make sure the client's happy to photograph job, even during construction. But occasionally you get the client that isn't comfortable with photographing a furnished home. So there's the odd job that we'll just take at the end when it's all nice and clean.
Speaker 2:But yeah, I'm similar to you, like I, much prefer to let the client move in settle in furnish the house, put the grass down, make it a home and come back in six or even 12 months and do the photos.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean if we don't get photos out of a job, that's no biggie to me. The job's been done, the business has made money. But if you're getting a client like testimonial, that's all you should be after. Be after testimonial and repeat work, yeah, um, because yeah, it's. It's I think you focus on about pricing. But if you can focus on getting that right, you can, you can build your business around that type of customer.
Speaker 1:Then yeah 100 instead of just relaying, relying on plans coming through from a random customer once you over time, like, obviously it's not going to happen first, straight away, but you'll build your rapport and then you'll get that customer that's seen seeing your work. And then, yeah, I, if someone rings me and it's quite a large job, and like we're only a small company, like we're not well known, but the first thing I say is, would you like to call some of our previous customers? Because, like, if you're deciding on the builder or whatever, like most of my customers are willing to answer the phone call and tell you how it went.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's always a big selling point for us as well, like any client we've built for, will take a call. So, um, we'll reach out to them, ask them if they're. They're available and and, yeah, pass their details on. But you've only got to look at your website and your instagram and like it's all quality yeah and it makes a massive difference.
Speaker 2:Like I feel like there's so many builders and trades out there that are like, if they like, you see, because they do sponsored ads and shit, so you know that's costing hundreds or thousands of dollars a month. Like if they took that money and invested that money on personal development or some sort of mentoring and coaching yeah, 100 and took the time to actually figure out who their client, preferred client, is, know their numbers, all those types of things. Because, like I said back at the beginning, like so many of them just think that they have to be in front of people's faces, they have to have a big following, but that's all an absolute waste of time and money if you don't know how to run the business. Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:So I think perfecting like we're all builders at the end of the day, like we've all got our own degree of quality some push for more, some, some don't but if that's a part of your business relying on the quality then you need to. You need to just drum that into your staff, and so that was big. For us is, yeah, quality is what built our reputation and, um, yeah, we're just. We're just sticking to that yeah, no, it's awesome.
Speaker 2:Well, mate, look, I really appreciate you coming in today. Um, is there anything else you wanted to get off your chest while you're?
Speaker 1:here. No, I didn't think I'd get as emotional bringing back up I don't know. Once I just started talking about it I was like Jesus, what's happening here? But yeah, it's been a great. It's a very challenging career being a builder and yeah, like I, definitely my guys see the stress of it all but, like once they learn to get the systems in place, like I've said. To one of our apprentices coming through, I said, mate, we're putting him up for Apprentice of the Year this year. He's really good. And I said to him look, you're going to be a future builder. Whenever I said, when I'm older and retired and you want a supervisor or whatever, like you can call me, um. So yeah it's, it's a rewarding industry but challenging. But yeah it's if you can get all the basics right and and make sure that your numbers are there, like just keep improving one percent at a time yeah, no, it's awesome advice.
Speaker 2:Well, uh, look, guys. Thanks very much for listening Australia's number one construction industry podcast. Um, look, if you know a builder or a tradie that uh hasn't seen this podcast, make sure you share comment, like all those types of things, because I can't create a new building industry without all your help and I really appreciate everything you do. I appreciate all the listens and uh look forward to seeing you on the next one. Are you ready to build smarter, live better and enjoy life?
Speaker 2:then head over to live like buildcom forward slash elevate to get started everything discussed during the level up podcast with me, duane pierce, is based solely on my own personal experiences and those experiences of my guests. The information, opinions and recommendations presented in this podcast are for general information only, and any reliance on the information provided in this podcast is done at your own risk. We recommend that you obtain your own professional advice in respect to the topics discussed in this podcast is done at your own risk. We recommend that you obtain your own professional advice in respect to the topics discussed during this podcast.