Level Up with Duayne Pearce
I take on the role of an authoritative voice that fearlessly communicates truths drawn directly from my lived experiences. With a genuine sense of ownership, my insights are free from any hidden agendas – they truly belong to the audience. My stories and journey add remarkable value, the key now lies in harnessing its power effectively to help others.
My purpose is to create a new residential building industry. My mission is to inspire unshakable self-confidence in my colleagues in the industry, empowering them to orchestrate prosperous, enduring, and lucrative businesses that bring exceptional projects to fruition for our clients.
My goal is to foster a deeper comprehension among clients about the identity and functions of builders, redefining their perceptions.
Level Up with Duayne Pearce
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Join us as we chat with John Oxley from Sydney Beach Homes about his inspiring journey. From the tender age of eight, under the mentorship of a neighbourhood builder, John discovered his calling. Despite the allure of a stable family business, he took the bold path to construction, securing an apprenticeship in a most unconventional way. His story speaks to the power of persistence and making daring life choices that can shape a fulfilling career.
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you feel very vulnerable. I thought my solution to all my problems was to work longer and harder.
Speaker 2:So what drove you to do that Like? I'm really interested on this.
Speaker 1:Yeah, if you're unhappy and you don't do anything about it, you're gonna remain unhappy. So I had to make some pretty big decisions in my life.
Speaker 2:I'm giving you a big hug as soon as we stand up. G'day guys. Welcome back to another episode of Level Up. We are down in Manly today, so Shane and I have been up at 3.30 this morning. We've flown down to Sydney because I've got an incredible opportunity tonight I'm actually being a guest speaker at Manly Master Builders, manly Warringah, and the reason I'm able to do that is because of this incredible person sitting here with me today John Oxley from Sydney Beach Homes. How are you, mate? Good Dwayne, how are you? Excellent, mate. I've been looking forward to this for a very long time and I really appreciate the offer that Master Builders has made to come down here and get up and speak in front of people tonight. So that's my mission. I'm absolutely committed to getting in front of as many builders, as many traders as possible and just showing everybody that anybody can turn their life around, turn their business around and be successful.
Speaker 2:Yeah, just quickly give a little bit of background. So john and I met about eight or nine years ago. If you listen to podcasts all the time you'd hear the story like that's back when I was, um, doing a little bit of work. I did three months months with the Builders Coach and John was part of that coaching program and I ended up being put into what was called an inner circle group. John was part of that and, yeah, I guess we just set it off. We had a few conversations and we've stayed in touch through social media, so it would literally be eight years since I seen you.
Speaker 1:Yeah, for sure In person, Yep, and it doesn't feel like that, and I'm surprised this hasn't happened sooner. But here we are.
Speaker 2:Yeah Well, we've spoken about it, we've talked about it a lot, we have, but it just doesn't happen. Yeah, we have.
Speaker 1:I feel like we're on very similar pathways. Yeah, you've definitely 10x'd it.
Speaker 2:Well, mate, it's the only way You've got to Look now like I, I just would have kept going round and round circles if I hadn't pushed myself like you gotta. You need that consistency, you need that that drive um. But like, tell us, john's got an incredible story, um, and we've got a lot to talk through. But like, can you give us a little bit of background? Like, obviously you've got sydney beach homes, um, which is an amazing company like you guys. Check them out. They build incredible homes. Um, how did you become a builder, or what drove you to be a builder?
Speaker 1:yeah, I I can honestly say that that at the age of eight, um, my interests were peaked then. Um lived in a little quiet cul-de-sac in avalon and a guy was building his own house, um, in the street a few doors up, and I introduced myself and he was at eight years old, like yeah, dead set, had plastic tools and and thongs and whatever, and he and he kind of just took me under his wing. It was quite remarkable. The guy ended up. He was Bob Ryan, who did a talkback show, building show on the ABC, and you know my incredible patience for him to to allow me to work on his site after school and on weekends and stuff for a couple of years.
Speaker 1:And yeah, that, I think, was really that seed had been planted then. And, yeah, fast forward, you know, went through to HSC and then almost took over my dad's business, which is a nets and ropes business that had been established for over 100 years. So his great grandfather had started it and I was the youngest of five siblings and the others hadn't been interested. And so I kind of A lot of pressure there, yeah, a bit of pressure, look, it wasn't something I was overly interested in doing. A lot of pressure there, yeah, a bit of pressure, look, it wasn't something I was overly interested in doing.
Speaker 1:And probably six months after school of working there, I just said, look, I can't do this anymore. And I started an apprenticeship, which was hard because it was sort of halfway through the year. So what I did was I wrote letters to a lot of builders on the northern beaches. I think I got one response because I was at TAFE. But they said, look, you can't keep going with TAFE unless you get a job as a carpenter. And then I was actually working at my dad's factory at Engleburn, which is miles away it's like an hour and a half away down south.
Speaker 2:What made you think of writing letters to people?
Speaker 1:Look, I just think it's a nice way to to introduce yourself to people.
Speaker 1:But I took it to the next level. There was a a guy building some factories across the road from my dad's work and I just wanted over the road and introduced myself to this bloke and and he was a big german guy and, uh, he was building this factory you know units with his super and he also had a uh petitioning company um and I just said, hey gang, look, I'm looking for an apprenticeship. And he also had a petitioning company um, and I just said, how you going? Look, I'm looking for an apprenticeship. And he, mate, he just right out, mate, you know, I appreciate you, you've been up front and he said, right, I make sure, turn up to this job in chatswood on monday and you can start.
Speaker 1:That was it. That was it and and it was it wasn't the most exciting work, it was. It was commercial um, working with steel studs and frames and petitioning and jip rocking and stuff. But it was an introduction to the building game and I I kept pursuing um, I wanted to do the carpentry, that was my passion um and kept having had my feelers out. I think there was a another employer who was uh used to do refurbishment of schools and stuff. So I was with him six months. A local builder yeah, um, that was boring, that was just rehanging doors and fixing, you know, termite damage floors and but still an experience, yeah, um. And then I ended up with a local builder, um, in the cottage industry, uh, who was a craftsman you know, it was just him and me for the rest of the duration of my apprenticeship and he was a cabinet maker by trade.
Speaker 1:So he he was super fussy about, like the tension the detail he would allow me to spend a day to hang a door to get it right.
Speaker 2:You know I think it's important for younger people to hear this, because you, like so many people, get stuck at jobs that aren't getting them where they want to go, and like I did the same, like I had two bosses during my time because the first boss wasn't really at the time, I didn't think he was giving me what I needed but, and so I moved on to another one and I'm glad I did, because the first boss was all very custom architectural, one-off homes, and then the second one was actually volume work, so I had the detail and then the volume guy got my speed.
Speaker 2:So I think you gotta like different experiences yeah, like yeah, if I think if you don't have, either you need to get that experience during your apprenticeship or when you finish your apprenticeship you need to go and sub it to different builders. Like I feel like a lot of um, our industry is losing a lot of craftsmen because they're doing these apprenticeships where and it doesn't matter like plumbing, plastering, whatever, like like you get plumbing apprentices that work for big companies and they they're doing these apprenticeships where and it doesn't matter like plumbing, plastering, whatever, like you get plumbing apprentices that work for big companies and they're in a crew and all they do is underslabs or all they do is rough ends. Or you get a plasterer that only does sheeting or only does setting, or you get a carpenter that only does framing. They don't get that wide variety of skills. They don't get to know their full trade.
Speaker 1:No, I agree with that wide variety of skills. They don't get to know their full trade. No, I agree with that. And three years of a carpentry apprenticeship completed and then a fourth year in the trade. And then I actually had a year off traveling. My old man was into yachts and he bought a yacht in Finland and couldn't afford to get it delivered back to Australia, so he sent my brother and I over to sail it back, which was an incredible experience. That's unreal. Nine months. Had you done shit like that before? Oh look, he'd always had boats and I used to get dragged out on. You know I didn't love it, yeah. But going across oceans is, oh, it was well incredible Coming that distance. My older brother was 25 at the time. I'd just turned 21. Holy, I was 25 at the time, I'd just turned 21. Holy shit. Yeah, that was a pretty cool experience to share with my brother. But also, you know, there's I think, most of the beautiful places in the world are on a harbour somewhere.
Speaker 2:I know we're here to talk about building, but, like you said, finland, finland, yeah. So where did you have to go? I assume you had to sort of hug land for a certain time and then make crossings.
Speaker 1:Yeah, good question. We went through the Kiel Canal, through Germany which was an experience and then went sort of through the North Sea to Southampton and then across the Bay Biscay down to Portugal, and the plan was my brother had set a course to go right into the Mediterranean and through the Suez Canal, so that's probably the shortest way to get to Australia. And talk about bad timing. We'd got to Gibraltar, which is at the mouth of the Mediterranean, and the Gulf War had broken out, that was well and truly underway, and Bob Hawke had sent three frigates which pretty much condemned the Australian flag. There were stories of fishing vessels getting shot out of the water by Iraqi aeroplanes and stuff, so it was a very real threat. We got as far as Tunis, north Africa, which is, you know, french-speaking but Muslim mostly, yeah, and got a reasonably hostile reception there.
Speaker 1:So my brother somehow, you know, at a young age had a hell of a lot of experience sailing decided we'd go back out and do a double Atlantic crossing, so across to Rio to Cape Town and then from Cape Town to Melbourne through the Southern Ocean, which was I'd been reading books about it, and they measured waves of 200 feet down there and ships getting snapped in half Because you've got the wetsilies blowing around Antarctica and the waves don't hit anything, so they just keep getting bigger and bigger. You know, um, not always like that, but the, I think, 33 days from Cape Town to Melbourne at sea, um, you know, and it was cold, we had a couple of snowfalls, um, and you know we're taking Castle Lager beer, which is the South African beer, out of the cupboard frosty. So it was cold and we got knocked down a couple of times. That was pretty terrifying. But it was a strong boat, like what sort of what?
Speaker 2:size boat we're talking about. It was 53 feet, yeah, but still that's not huge when you're out in those oceans it was funny.
Speaker 1:Will's all about statistics, but I think he said something like we're closer to the space station than anyone else on the planet. Right now you feel very vulnerable. I think there are a couple of times there that I thought I've had enough. But I think you talk about resilience in owning a business and what have you. I think getting through that was important to do. It's not like I could have stepped off anyway, so that was an experience.
Speaker 2:But life's made of experiences, isn't it? I think we get so caught up in living lives and we don't. We're always wanting to get somewhere else that a lot of the time, like we don't like. You're probably getting more out of that now, remembering that experience and what you went through and what you thought were then. At the time, you didn't, you took it for granted.
Speaker 1:I agree with that. I think that, um, a lot of the, the stress and anxiety that we build up in ourselves is worrying about things that we don't have a want. Yeah, that haven't happened yet. That haven't happened yet and and you just, um, you know, um have to have to appreciate not having much and and being happy in that state.
Speaker 2:Yeah, anyway, we certainly went down a rabbit hole there, no, but I think it's, I really get a lot out of and I'm I hope I think the listeners will as well like you've got a, I think building like or trade like trade. The construction industry is so relatable to so many different things and, like you just said, like it's, it's building resilience, just like running a building business or a carpentry business or whatever it is. But yeah, it's funny, I I do think we have to slow down to go forward. Like we get so caught up in life and things that we, we don't. Uh, it's something I'm very conscious of now. Like even just only a few weeks ago, I finished, um, a charity rally, um, with one of my mates we got an old vr commodore, which the box, well, it makes me feel old because the car was 30 years old and when I was growing up and getting my license, pretty standard if your parents had a vr commodore, like you were, that were doing well, and now we paid two thousand bucks for one and took it, took it through the bush. But like, just, I didn't think it at the time, like during the rally I I actually thought I'll, um, I want to do more of these, but I might try another, maybe a variety bash or something next time. I thought this is just too full on.
Speaker 2:Like 6 30 breakfast, eight o'clock, driver's brief, 170 cars, nine, ten o'clock most days if you're, if you're the back team, by the time you get on the road, 600k's on shit roads. Like there was teams that weren't like breaking down during the day and then not getting into camp until 10, 11. Like well, there was one night where teams were rolling into camp at one and two in the morning. But like I've been back from that two weeks now and it was unbelievable.
Speaker 2:Like the people we met, the times we had, and even though you're in a, an older car driving on roads through the middle of nowhere, the experience was like it just gave you time. There was no reception for five days. Like it just gave you time to really sit and think, yeah, and just to appreciate, like what. Like, even if you like let's be honest even in aust, look. Even if you like, let's be honest, even in Australia, even if you have fucking $1,000, like we're in the luckiest country in the world and you can be or have or do whatever you want. But yeah, we'll get back to your building.
Speaker 1:So then then three, three years of three nights a week, post trade, yeah.
Speaker 2:And so did you subby, did you come back and go?
Speaker 1:subby the minute, actually the minute I got my carpenter's licence, I quit my job. Yeah, there was no question that I had. I went to boarding school so I was fiercely independent and just felt, you know, like I had to break the chains off and I had no job to go to. I put an ad in the manly daily local rag and got my first job and um made a meal of it and I remember the lady said oh, you were the cheapest of 12 quotes. And I just thought, oh well, this is the start of something bad, and you know, but learnt stuff, you know and I was I was just enjoying the work.
Speaker 1:Yeah, um, I think for 25 years I was probably flying by the seat of my pants. The only thing that kept me going was the passion.
Speaker 2:That's what we all do, isn't it? Yeah, we all get into it, for the passion of being a plumber, being a sparky, being a builder, and the stress of the business takes over that passion very quickly.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think we absolutely all. We're all technicians to some degree. But what that leads us into when you become a business person, you've got skills there that you don't even know about. That you need to know. And that was me to a T. I think there was certainly a sort of boom bust for me style of working. You know, I wouldn't know how much money I'd made until the accountant told me and all this sort of stuff, and there was a complete ignorance and of what you know, I don't know how, I just kept going renovating people's homes and making them more wealthy and paying for it in the end, yeah, um, but even what you just said, then, like most well, we all, we all rely on someone else telling us how well we're doing, like and like knowing what I know.
Speaker 2:Now it's absolutely crazy. But look, you literally put your heart and soul into what you do and then you don't understand the business side of things. So you completely rely on whatever you're doing three-month check-ups, I know like back in the day I was doing it once a year and, like you rely on that one meeting a year for someone to sit in front of you and go, oh, you rely on that one meeting a year for someone to sit in front of you and go, oh, here's all your numbers, you've made a bit of money. Why the fuck would we not be doing these checks more often and knowing our numbers?
Speaker 1:It was when the penny dropped for me. I think it was about the time that. So I'd been through a couple of rough patches and I look at and this all translates in, as you well know, to unhappy family life and this all translates in, as you well know, to unhappy family life. I thought my solution to all my problems was to work longer and harder. So that meant that I was less present and I'll go into. The end result of that has ultimately been the breakdown of my marriage. There's obviously other contributing things, but it certainly hasn't helped. And you know it's hard to not feel accountable and guilty about all of that. But I had my business partner, now Jono. He gave me a couple of jobs when I was quiet. He worked for a mid-tier construction company and that got me out of a bind, you know. And then he had some challenging times himself Just, I think that in that world they get their pound of flesh from you and he had very similar work ethic to me and thought working harder and longer was the solution to everything.
Speaker 2:It's how we're brought up, isn't it? That's right, it's how we're brought up. Oh yeah, I'm sure you were told growing up. That's all. My dad, my uncles, everyone drummed into me, and even my bosses.
Speaker 1:Yeah, there wasn't a lot that my dad imparted onto me, but that was certainly a lot of things, anyway. So we've all been in that position where he knew he'd had enough and there was telltale signs of that. I won't go into it. But he rang me and said look, I've left this company and is there any opportunity for me to come and work for you? And I didn't even hesitate. I knew the calibre of person he was. Yeah, so how long ago is this? That was 2015,.
Speaker 1:Say, yeah, we'd also known each other quite well through our local surf club, so it wasn't like I didn't know him. Him, we'd known each other for 20 years at that point. Yeah, um, so you know quality human being and and anyway, he, he started running a job for me and and very quickly could see that, coming from that commercial background, had had the skills that I didn't have, yeah, um, of how to project, manage jobs and program them. And you know, he just couldn't believe the stuff that I was putting up with Subby's not turning up, and that was okay. As one example, really, no systems and processes. I tried my best, it wasn't enough. And then, I don't know, one day he sat me down over at coffee and said look, how would you feel about partnering and starting a new venture? And I went mate, that sounds like a bloody great idea because I knew he had the skills I didn't have.
Speaker 2:Yeah, um that's the only way to make a partnership work, isn't it? You've got to have different strengths and weaknesses. I think so.
Speaker 1:I think so um, and so, yeah, we, we started with kurt back then and, and, and, um, you know, spent a lot of time and energy on marketing. I was working out of the front bedroom of our house and so what?
Speaker 2:what drove you to do that? Like I'm really interested on this, yeah, and I try and dig into it on podcasts and nobody I've never had one person yet be able to give me a clear answer, and I can't like it when people ask me what was your turning point, like there's no one thing.
Speaker 1:But look well for me, my, I didn't know how to be the person I wanted to be, which was to build those big, beautiful homes. Like I was like bashing my head against the wall. So you were chasing the job. You weren't chasing the client, I was chasing my dream. He was the mechanism that was going to get me there because all of a sudden, I go okay.
Speaker 2:So when you say he the coach, no, no, my business partner. Oh, your business partner. Yeah, yeah, yeah, business partner yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:So I I had this vision of growing this business and doing these big, beautiful, luxury architectural homes and I just for life. We didn't know how to get there and so, having him, almost as you suggested in our earlier chat about accountability partners, it was like this is what we need to do, ox. Like he actually came to me with this um plan that he put time into. He said, right, we need this, we need to do this, we're going to get out of your bedroom, we're going to get an office and it's like bang, bang, bang, bang bang, I'm going to get a business coach. Um, and we just started this journey together and it was.
Speaker 2:It's been pretty cool, you know, like so sydney beachhams only started 26, 12 months before you were working with kurt yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:So, um, we're both builders, you know, in our own rights and, and he'd had different experiences, but like coming from that commercial world where dog ate dog, and they trained him, they coached him, he knew exactly what needed to happen. So that was really the springboard. And then I just it was exciting, you know, I remember buying our office and signing the paperwork, and then we were both, we fitted out our own office space, um, and I remember sitting and we had these nice um desks next to each other and we're both sort of slitting in our chairs, twirling our thumbs. What happens now, you know? And and then the phone and ring, and then we get an opportunity and then, okay, we need someone. What's our first employee?
Speaker 1:And I think it was, um, an office admin, um, and then we, you know, worked, started getting more work and employing more people, and that that was all challenging and I knew that, okay, this is starting to get real and I need to educate myself. So I I started investing a lot of time into reading and listening to podcasts and what have you, and like, literally, my I I know you got the big.
Speaker 2:I love the shirt, mate. Peace, love cash flow. You got the cardone shirt on.
Speaker 1:Well, you know, most people know I'm a big fan of grant well, he, I, I started hoovering all this stuff up and, as I suggested earlier, it went to one of his seminars and it cost of like having the courage and and a business partner would who would support me on that um to invest that amount of money in your own education. I think that's a big stumbling block for most builders and contractors Not seeing the value in it and thinking, god, that's a lot of money, it's probably a con. I used to tell myself that this has got to be a con, surely. And then you just get caught up in it. You think it's a con.
Speaker 2:I've talked about this a little bit recently. Like you think it's a con because you hear them telling you things and you think to yourself it can't be that easy. But it actually is. But the way the value is is when you sign up to a community or a program or a coach or a mentor, the value is the community and accountability.
Speaker 1:Accountability. So exactly right. If you invest money in something, it means that you're going to put the effort in, and it's funny how we put more value in material things that we haven't got and we save up for that, like a car or a motorbike or a boat, I think.
Speaker 2:I figured this out recently, man, I believe and this is across everybody this is nothing, not just our industry. Yeah, we all chase the shiny objects, yeah, and so I feel like like tradies, like you'll buy the new tool that gives you a dopamine hit. Yeah, it's. It's very, very easy these days to get finance, so you'll you'll buy the big 40 thousand dollar tool trailer or you'll buy the jet ski or the motorbike, or like you don't see any tradies now driving around in a new dual cab that's older than 10 years and you get that instant gratification. You get the item, you get the dopamine hit and you feel fantastic. But then when you invest in yourself, whether it's personal development or business development, you get stuck in and you start to see results and you get that dopamine hit, but then you learn that to keep the business successful, you have to keep working on it, whereas all these other things you get and it's there, you get. You buy the new dual cab, it's there every day, you sit in it. You, you feel proud, you show off like look at me, I'm in my big jacked up truck.
Speaker 2:But when a lot of people realize that, like three months in, they've implemented things, they've had success, they've turned the business around and then they realize shit, this is actually ongoing. I need to keep doing this, so many people back off. And because the shiny object starts to become dull, because they realize it's not something that's instant, like personal development, business development never stops. Like it's something you got to keep doing, like I'll never stop till the day I die. I believe I'm addicted to it, but that's because I see the results from the more effort I put in, the more money I spend, the more time I spend. Everything flourishes my business, my relationships, my kids. So, yeah, it's funny how the world works, but, like you just said, we all think it's a con, but it's not.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it was kind of. Some of them are. They're probably some cons out there. Well, look, I felt embarrassed, to be honest, that it took me that long. I probably had mostly my wife, you know, in my ear about it, about getting help or the amount of money you're spending on it. No, just she would have to have been one of my biggest mentors.
Speaker 2:you know, self-aware and emotionally intelligent we need to listen to women more they have the answers.
Speaker 1:I mean yeah, yeah, so, yeah, anyway, the business kind of got bigger and probably it was only 18 months into it. We needed to get a bigger office. We got an incredible opportunity to build a beautiful home out at Whale Beach and we're just pinching ourselves that we're doing jobs of that stature and very architectural Look. They presented challenges and we were up for it.
Speaker 2:What sort of dollar they? I know you've done some big jobs.
Speaker 1:Yeah, look, you're sort of getting up to the 6 million plus and you know, and above, I guess, at some point. Well, I tell you, what wasn't on the business plan was was COVID. We had a couple of big jobs running and that that time I remember when, when, you know, no one knew what was going on in the world uh, it was a lot of nervous energy being expended at that time and I remember having crisis meetings with jono in the office about how we're going to manage it all. And I have to say the government did handle it very well, um, to get everyone through. Um, it was like it was.
Speaker 2:It was a very nervous time there for a little while, like that. So, cave, it happened. Uh, literally two months after I signed up to one of grant's personal programs and I was like me, we've just invested a shitload of money did that.
Speaker 2:Keep going though yeah, it kept going. But, mate, he, he, like, so they, the states, had already started like was bad and like Australia didn't really start shutting down and talking about the way it was going to go for a couple of months Because we so we'd been to Vegas, we went to the 10X Growth Conference, then we went and visited, did some business stuff, and then we went to San Francisco for two weeks and while we were there it was all starting to happen. And then we come back to australia and, um, literally within two months of coming back, it had started affecting people. Like, I think the day we landed in australia, australia had its first case and then it, just over two months, it just started ramping up and so we just invested a shitload of money with Grant Cardone and we were.
Speaker 2:So the week I think it was a Friday the Friday they announced in Australia that they were going to be shutting all open homes, they were going to be putting all these strict restrictions on job sites was the exact same day that we were doing our final cleaning on our personal development units, that we were doing our final cleaning on our personal development units that we'd just done, and they were having their first open home on that saturday. So we had all this private lending um and we'd invested all this money in grant and I was. I had a few moments I was like holy fuck, yeah, like we we cannot cash flow this business for more than a few months if, if they do this and the um, the thing that got me through covid mate was grant was doing these emergency like zooms and like so he was good, wasn't it?
Speaker 2:yeah, and like so this group that we're in, he um, he basically like the group, got sent an email and he's like I will give you everything you need to get through. Covid and I was jumping on zooms because, like obviously American time at 1 and 2 in the morning for 3 and 4 and 5 hours and just hearing like he would just GS up. Yeah, like you have to expect the unexpected.
Speaker 1:He was very vocal, wasn't he? Yeah?
Speaker 2:And I just listened to him, mate and I implemented it and we didn't get through it unscathed, like gave, like we. We lost a lot of money, which I know you did as well.
Speaker 1:but we definitely got through it.
Speaker 2:I believe we we're where we are now because of like, it wasn't just him, I was doing some other coaching at the time as well, but I just took everything they said on board and just fucking right. Oh, like, if this is going to happen, then it ain't going to fail because of my efforts. Like, I'm going to do whatever I can yeah, it's good.
Speaker 1:Um, and look on straight after things started opening up in Sydney, there was still lockdown LGAs where you couldn't get contractors and it just meant programs blew out and your profit was just gone and material price increases. And I remember down locally you could only buy three sticks of timber a day, like it was. We literally had our labour in the truck just going around all the timber yards picking up sticks of LVLs and stuff. You know it was a debacle. Yeah, on top of that we had the wettest year in Sydney's history, which was diabolical, you know, and you just sort of had to roll with it.
Speaker 1:But I guess where I was going with all of that was you kind of weathered the storm and you learn a bit more about yourself during those times. There's no question that challenges I feel are growth opportunities and, you know, worrying about your team and their mental health and what have you. And I guess you know that was a little while ago now, but I think then you know there was a change of government and then what tends to be the case from my experience is that with a change of government you get a whole lot of different policy changes and it seems to me that, um, the current government seem to think that that the employer pays for everything, um, and you know, um, there's a whole closing loophole stuff. But anyway, it kind of just adds extra challenges to running a business, yeah, and managing employee expectations, and so the company was just sort of getting by but not doing great. I think growth is a cost.
Speaker 2:So when is this? Like I know you had a period there where you, like we've spoken that you really knuckled in on your overheads. Is that? Was that around this time?
Speaker 1:No, look it's's sort of. Probably a year ago there was. I would say there would be 17. You know, maybe june last year, 17 in the team and yeah, um, I'm jumping the gun a bit you know that's okay, it's, it's all you know, relevant. I think you know doing those big homes, uh, I, I've come to believe that there's a bit of ego in that, probably a lot of ego in that, a lot of ego, mate.
Speaker 2:I did the same thing. Yeah, the first 10 years of my business I chased the jobs instead of finding my dear client.
Speaker 1:Yeah. So you know, what we've been doing in recent times is meeting the drop in demand and certainly, you know, the news was, you know it was all about builders, insolvencies and and, look, you know, I sympath, sympathize with a lot of those companies that were were on fixed contracts during that tough time and and it was no, you know, wonder that they, they came unstuck. What I will say is um, you know, jo, and I have sort of worked through that and as a business owner, I don't believe that there's complete unawareness that you're heading in that direction. It doesn't just happen.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and to get to but up until that, like COVID, was a massive wake up call as well, because there was so many people in our industry like suppliers, builders, tradies that would just head down, bum up, chasing the next job and just completely relying on turnover. And turnover means nothing if you're not making money, and COVID really highlighted how so many businesses trade insolvent and just don't understand their running cost.
Speaker 1:Steve Trang. Yeah, yeah, the home warranty scheme in this state is in a pretty poor state as well. Like, um, you know I'm members of both hia and nba and and you know I've sort of feel like I don't know why we all have to endure something that's broken.
Speaker 2:Um, it's kind of you're at the well, we don't. We need to run our own race like we need to. That's what that's what all this is about like people breaking the old fashioned ways the industry operates and it's happening Like we have through Live Like Builders and the podcast, like we have thousands of builders and traders now that are putting time, energy and money into themselves. It is good mate.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you're doing a great job there, I think. I think, just going back to the education that we probably had in the government's wisdom of trying to get more builders on paper, fast-tracking qualifications, I see as a massive issue. It's huge and it's frustrating being in it, that bureaucrats have kind of created this problem for everyone. There's no accountability at that level, that's for sure.
Speaker 2:Sorry, just about in there on that John, at that level, that's for sure. Um, so just about in there on that john, like, oh, this is something I'm really passionate about and I definitely stir people up when I say this, but there is a very big difference between a blue like a tradie worker and and, uh, like someone that sits in and like has some sort of office job or there's a lot like uni degree and those types of things and like I firmly believe I don't care how long people want to argue with me like if you don't understand, like we think very differently, we learn very differently, we react, we respond Like we are very different and we interpret things very differently. And I think because a lot of the people that are making these decisions and these calls and these legislations haven't been in our industry, haven't worked in it, haven't like don't understand it, they don't understand how different we are. And so, like it's, it's not an industry where you can throw people at it and they can pick it up easily.
Speaker 2:Like you would know, like you do your four years training you, you don't know a quarter of what you need to learn, whereas, and like, what I'm getting at is like I feel with a lot of the other side of things, I don't know how, like sitting in an office or doing an office type job, is a very different learning environment. You can sit beside people at desks, you can share computer screens, you can give examples, so a lot of it's like numbers writing, those types of things. You can't do that on site. On site you physically have to do things and cut timber and measure. I don't know. I just feel they don't understand the difference.
Speaker 1:Well, spending one day in the private sector would be a good start. I don't think they have that experience, but I agree with what you say there, in particular, builders I'm talking about right now. There is an incredible array of things you need to be across, yeah.
Speaker 2:I guess, to wrap that up, what I'm probably trying to get at is you can't learn what a tradie or a builder does by reading a textbook Like you can't. I don't care how many times you've read it like you, just you can't.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I don't care how many times you've read it like you. Just you can't. Yeah, it, it, it.
Speaker 1:I do get the sense that everyone's in a hurry these days and they're missing the point because, to be a craftsman, at the top of your game, it's, it's time, and you know a lot of my mate's sons are coming to the age where they're leaving school and what have you and ask us you know what our advice would be and John and I feel the same way about this that why don't you just finish what you started at school, like you can do these pre-apprenticeship courses where you're doing school, you're doing TAFE and you're on site as well, and I just don't see that anyone's a winner there. I understand it yeah, that you know, trying to encourage people to get a trade. It just seems to me that you're starting leaving year 10 or whatever. I just think that extra couple of years of maturity at school. Finish that, do the best you can. It doesn't matter if you pass or fail, just do the time and then move on to the next thing.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you've got to have one or the other. You can't be. Yeah, I agree, I don't know if they do it down here in queensland, I know, sorry, new south wales, I know at home they, um, there's some private trade skills now where, like you do your 11 and 12, like you get your your english, your maths and those types of things, but you're, you're there to learn how to be a tradie. I think that has legs and that's just that.
Speaker 1:The you know shortening of all the qualifications. I mean it's even with the amount of time that I spent back then. The three years post trade, three nights a week was a big graft, but still, like you suggested, it's a fraction of what you need to know. Yeah, and there is this like, uh, as you, once you get your qualification, you know you're high-fiving and you think that that's it, and that was probably me for a lot of years, um, learning on the job and not seeing the value in, in, in putting that extra time into. You know, the continuing professional development, which is a joke in its own right, because no one's ever checked whether I do continued professional development cbd points should be compulsory.
Speaker 2:Compulsory, do you?
Speaker 1:have them down here? We do, but you've just got to sign it when you reapply for your licence. That you've done it. No one checks it. It's just a box-ticking exercise, right? So I'm very encouraged by the number of younger builders coming to those MBA events that we hold monthly.
Speaker 2:It's huge mate. I feel it's really exciting times. We just finished we call it a launch with Live Life Build two days ago, and it really so. The last two launches we've done really big numbers, but last time it excited me, but this time it's just off the charts because I think we've got over three dozen people that have come in Like there's big numbers all up. I think we've got over three dozen um people that have come in like there's big numbers all up, but we've got over three dozen young.
Speaker 2:So we've got three, three dozen odd people that are either carpenters, supervisors, currently doing their builder's license or just got it. And the reason I'm so excited about that is because these guys are taking the initiative to learn the business side of a building business before they've even really put their foot in the door. And I just think, man, like if you put in the effort now and you get all your documents, all your systems and processes in place in your head, you you understand what you need to do. Not only are you going to run an incredible business, you touched on it before, you're going to have a lot better home life. Because, let's face it, like how many businesses in the building industry, the business takes over the relationship and you're going to have a financially stable future Like it blows my mind.
Speaker 2:I just want to run up and give them all hugs.
Speaker 1:Good on you. Yeah, it's funny. I think back and I just wish someone had covered me and taken me under their wing. I guess you've got to be open to it, but would you have taken it?
Speaker 2:yeah, well, I don't know about that, but um, because that's the people ask me all the time yeah like now it's easy to say you've got to be you've
Speaker 1:got to be in the right frame of mind and I'm just obviously slow on the uptake, but my, my elder brother's a maths professor professor, so I think I've got the shallow end of the gene pool. But yeah, I think you know I'm here now and you know. One of the things I wanted to touch on with you, if it's okay, Duane, is that in the process of, you know, hoovering up heaps of books, I think I was going through 40 books a year and just couldn't get enough really learning about myself and it kind of frightened me because I, everything I read, I thought, shit, there's so much more I need to know, Um. But part of that, what that allowed me to do, was to try and help the team and put some time and energy into into them and growing the business the right way and nurturing clients and the whole bit. Um.
Speaker 1:And we had we had a couple of mental health, you know challenges in the team Um. And then you know, I, the team um, and then you know I was having, I was having some some marital challenges myself and probably about this time last year I, I started getting these dark thoughts, you know, and I and I, I know enough about it. I actually did a mental first aid course with the nba just to give me a little bit more understanding of it if it happened to one of our team. And all of a sudden this bloody black dog turned up at my doorstep and I was. It knocked me for six. I thought shit, um, how did that happen?
Speaker 1:so is it this all snuck up through, all obviously dealing with COVID, and yeah, look it's a couple years of that like look, I think, uh, you know I I can't put my finger on exactly the issues I think um know what I've got to learn through a number of counselling sessions was that how we're made up is a result of how we were brought up 100%.
Speaker 1:And boarding school at 12 didn't help, because I didn't. I lost my you know, primary female influence in my mother. And the other thing was that I remember I was very distinct about look, I'm not keen on going to boarding school, and my mother and father said look, it's okay, you just try it. If you don't like it, you can come home. I said, okay, that's fair enough, and I reckon, not every night, but a lot of nights a week, I'd ring them in tears saying, look, I'm done. And it just fell on deaf ears and so I, I just um went, okay, I've got to deal with this myself. Um, so I grew apart from my mum and dad pretty quickly and they you know, which was a bit sad really um.
Speaker 1:I I'm, you know, I've got my kids and I can't understand how they could easily dismiss me like that. But so I think that sort of carried through into my marriage those challenges in communication, just because I was shut down. I literally had the emotional intelligence of a 12-year-old for most of my life. Life, I think, yeah, in terms of dealing with females and in relationships and stuff. So, um, that was all very interesting, um, in hindsight I suppose, um, and anyway, so I, yeah, I just had to I think I had the, the foresight when that happened to lean on some mates and get some help went to my gp. Um, jono was incredible.
Speaker 2:I'm trying to get emotional about it, but you know, I appreciate you talking about it, mate, because I think this happens in every single person in our industry.
Speaker 1:Yeah, like it has to be spoken about yeah, so that kind of crept up on me and you know, jono was amazing as a friend and a business partner and you know, in supporting me through that um and yeah so this, there was a combination of things and and um, there was the, the marriage broke down and so I'm I'm separated now, and and then the business uh downturn and then old man decided he'd pass away. That was a couple of months ago, so even though I wasn't close to him, it was still a significant life event. And I remember being in his bedside, um, in the nursing home and he wasn't in good shape. I could tell he was on the way out and I think they called the death shakes or whatever, and he was trying to talk to me and he couldn't, um, and we're both frustrated about that and you know, because I was interested to see what he had to say at that final moment.
Speaker 1:But what I was most saddened by with that event was the, the life that I didn't get to have with him, you know, and I kind of brought that to a head, um, but anyway that I think you know where am I going with all that. I just think that if I'm completely honest with you, um, I'm completely at peace with everything that's happened. Um, I'm I feel like, uh, I've been doing a lot of reading of the stoics and um stumbled across that in a book and thought why the hell isn't this stuff not taught at school?
Speaker 2:oh it's. It's incredible the way they do things and think about things and and um, yeah, so uh so what got you through that mate, like what, like that's, it's like you obviously got good people around you, but like you've got to make some decisions, it's mindset.
Speaker 1:You talk about mindset. A lot Things happen because of you, and if you're unhappy and you don't do anything about it, you're going to remain unhappy. So I had to make some pretty big decisions in my life, which, you know, wasn't something I planned for. But here I am, different stage of my life, and it actually came down to self-care in the end. I think part of the dark thoughts I was having was a result of all the guilt. And how have I stuffed this up, you know, and men, to get, get beyond that, because ultimately it comes down to to you, you personally, and I. I got to the point where, um, you know and I'm sure my kids won't hate me for this but I didn't give a fuck about anyone but myself. Um, they know, I love them to death and um, but I, literally it was self-preservation at that point but as selfish as that sounds like, you have to be like that because you can't like.
Speaker 2:You cannot be the best person you can be for your family and the people around you if you're not. Oh 100 like I.
Speaker 1:I knew that that wasn't a solution to the problem, that you take that off the table, because I've had. We've had it happen in the family, we've had it happen in the community, and you know you might have read this passage in a book by someone and it said if you are considering suicide, consider that you've got a what do you call it? A vest on like a what do you call them? A bomb? A bomb, and you get your hundred of your closest friends and family in the room and then detonate it. Because that's what you're doing. You're having an effect, a ripple effect, on everyone else around you, and it's a real shame that it's a spontaneous thing to do and it can be avoided. There's plenty of people out there that can help you, and one of the most remarkable things I learned in that course I did was it's okay to ask someone are you thinking about killing yourself?
Speaker 2:Yeah, well, it's actually Are you Okay Day today.
Speaker 1:Is it really? As we're recording this podcast but um, there you go, yeah, I'm okay, yeah, I'm gonna I'm giving you a big hug as soon as we stand up.
Speaker 2:But, um, I guess for people listening like this, this is a very um hard subject and if you are having trouble, like there is a lot of people that they're like, that's like tx boys, the guys from train might do an incredible job um lifeline all those things. So make sure you do reach out for help. But it's man, I got goosebumps yeah bloody tearing up just hearing your story.
Speaker 2:but the um, it's amazing how much like I talk about this a bit because I I want everybody to work on it because it is incredible how much we let the way we're brought up affect and control the rest of our lives. And I've said it a lot, I firmly believe there'd be 99.9% of people on this planet that just are not living their own life. They're stuck with trauma and thoughts and beliefs and just shit from experiences and people that they've been associated with growing up. Absolutely.
Speaker 1:And one of the things that the philosophers 2,000 years ago would say is that the one thing that is in your control is your thoughts and mind, and it's said that not even your body. You don't really have a control over your body. You can get sick, you can get cancer and it happens right. So that's quite powerful. That it's call it indifference. Um, that if you allow things to to upset you when you get stressed about it, well, that's, that's your choice. Yeah, you know that there's. That's massive if you can flick that switch and and think that whatever happens to you, it's not you know. Nothing happens to you.
Speaker 2:Everything happens because you know it's oh grant's saying yeah, nothing happens to you, everything happens because you like. That has stuck with me from the first time I heard it and I do.
Speaker 2:You think people, like so many people I think, think they are taking responsibility and ownership, but they're not like they might be taking ownership of one little piece over here, but there's 10 other pieces over here that they they're blaming everybody else for.
Speaker 2:Like I'd like, I like that you touched on, um your kids there, like they, like I, just knowing what I know now like my girls are 11 and 13 just, but one's about 10, 14, um I, and we're just letting them do what they want to do, like we want them to, to just be themselves, like we're not forcing anything on them at all. Um, because I've, like just through the breath, work and the bloody kinesiology, and there's no weird shit that I have a crack at now, like it's incredible, the shit that I've hung on to, that I just don't, and that, that shit that we're holding on to is is what's giving us back pain or leg pain or like trauma in our bodies or, um sickness. So the quicker we can get rid of stuff like that and be more open to talking about and sharing these experiences, the better for everybody.
Speaker 1:Well, it's interesting. I think one of the benefits of what you're doing, and what's probably helped get me through, is being of service, heavily involved in the surf club but also happy to impart experiences onto younger builders like I. Feel like that that's real, creates real purpose. Yeah, and if you're feeling sorry for yourself, but just an act of kindness, like something quite simple, yeah, um is enough to you know, to turn that, turn the corner and and feel a bit more upbeat about the day and you know yeah, you're saying yeah.
Speaker 2:Like when John walked in today, I felt embarrassed because he's 11 years older than me and looks like 10 years younger. You're looking incredible. You were saying that fitness has played a huge role in getting you through all this stuff.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so I rode surf boats for a long time and I think movement is incredibly important and it's funny, um, you know the whole compounding effect of just daily habits and it's something that I've not ever let go, um, but one of the one of the things that that jono and I have shared together is the surf boat rowing and you get your, your mates, in a boat and it's pretty cool that you're pushing your body to the extreme, um, that you can share those experiences and it's more about mateship than the competition side of it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, the camaraderie in the surf club's incredible. It's like an extended family for me and my kids went up through nippers and what have you, but a lot of older, wiser souls in that club that are like surrogate fathers. I didn't really have that, so, and my son and my daughter, cameron, haven't had, you know, a grandfather, yeah, so that's allowed them to have a bit of that. You know, in the surf club I feel you've got older people nurturing the younger people, yeah, and I feel like I'm kind of there now all of a sudden. It's happened very quickly, but becoming an older member of the club and, um, it's nice to be involved and help and, you know be part of the community in that way and is that so?
Speaker 2:is that what's kept you? Is that the fitness you do is like the training to be able to do that and get more involved with that?
Speaker 1:yeah, look, I just like the idea of being able to do anything I want physically, whether it's surfing or rowing or running or swimming or you know um and that'll pay dividends in the future.
Speaker 2:I hope 100, you know. Uh, that's the plan we've got to keep active.
Speaker 1:Hey, yeah, um, you know I've got a lot, a lot of mates I went to school with um who haven't kept up with you know, and I worry about that because it's you only get one life and, um, it needs to be a good one.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah. So, mate, we're to like we'll start to wrap it up a bit, but, like you've been through a lot in the last three or four years, what's happening now?
Speaker 1:Look. So we're just simplified things. I'm back on the tools. I touched on that before the podcast, which I actually love doing that. You, you know, peeling it back to basics, that is actually my passion. So john is running the business. He, he's, he's been working hard, um, you know, with all the things that you need to do to downsize, um, making sure that that we've still got jobs coming through the door and um, and like it's kind of evolving again into whatever it'll be, um, but I think the experiences that we've had, there's no regrets there. We're very proud of what we achieved and, um, you know, you're leaving a real legacy there of of a home that you've built. That's um, you know the family are happy to live in it and you know, with the outcome, so, yeah, I, so yeah, I think we've peeled it back to basics feel like we can still deliver great service and quality because yeah, so without all the added stresses that have gone into the last six years or eight years you know um size and turnover mean absolutely nothing, don't they?
Speaker 1:not really. No, um, it's quality of life and, um, making sure, like you talk about what gets you out of bed, and you know I get out of bed because I love what I do and I'm excited about what the day brings, and can I leave it in a better place that I've left it the day before, sort of thing. So, just being very conscious of my interactions with people and how I treat people and speak to them, and you know, you don't know what's going on in people's lives If you get a contractor that's a to them. And you know you don't know what's going on in people's lives If you get a contractor that's a bit off one day, you know, rather than get the shits about it, have a conversation with him. And you know men are pretty hopeless with communication. You know, when you say G'day mate, how you going, yeah, good, good, you know, like it's just a default thing.
Speaker 1:I was grabbing a coffee a little while ago, local coffee shop, and this guy I know of I've seen him around a bit but we're not close, you know but he came up to me he said can I give you a hug? And I said absolutely. And he started crying and he goes my dog died and I've had a shit time with the missus and I said that's all good. You know like it's pretty cool when you can be that vulnerable and you don't feel worse for it, that's for sure. Sure, yeah, you know. So I'm big on hugging mates. You know. I don't care if they feel uncomfortable about it. I think it's pretty cool that blokes can have a close relationship like that. And, you know, having a handful of people that you know you can talk to about anything has been helpful as well.
Speaker 2:Yeah, unreal mate. So, just to wrap it up, what advice for people out there listening, maybe people that are going through some tough times and thinking about throwing the towel in when it comes to their trade or building business, like what advice have you got? Look, I think at grassroots level.
Speaker 1:Don't feel like, don't be too proud to put your hand up. I mean, in Surf Life Saving, a lot of blokes drown in the water because they don't put their hand up, because they're too proud to admit that they're in fucking trouble, right. So don't think that you're a failure. In fact, it takes a lot more courage to put your hand up or make the phone call and ask someone. I am really delighted with the number of younger builders coming through, the master builders locally who take the time out of their week with their young families to come and educate themselves. And here's some old dogs tell some stories that may or may not save them some money or a headache. Like you're not alone. You're not alone and I love that's what you're doing is you're just putting it out there big time. And yeah, I'm proud of what you've done, mate, and it's been a really good friendship, so I hope we can keep going with it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, no, definitely mate. Definitely it'll only get stronger, but mate really appreciate your time and appreciate your vulnerability and sharing your story and your journey. Yeah, absolute pleasure and I'm really looking forward to tonight.
Speaker 1:Sounds good.
Speaker 2:Appreciate it. Yeah, look, thanks guys for listening. Remember, we've got the new website. Now go and check out our merch, get on board, because we want everyone in australia wearing level up. It's got um, keep smashing it out on the back because that's what we're doing. We're putting this podcast out there to share these types of stories and just help people in this industry realize that there's always a better way to do things. So, um, look forward to seeing you on the next one. Like subscribe and uh, yeah, have a great day.
Speaker 1:are you ready to build smarter, live better and enjoy life?
Speaker 2:then head over to live like buildcom forward, slash, elevate to get started everything discussed during the level up podcast with me, duane pierce, is based solely on my own personal experiences and those experiences of my guests. The information, opinions and recommendations presented in this podcast are for general information only, and any reliance on the information provided in this podcast is done at your own risk. We recommend that you obtain your own professional advice in respect to the topics discussed during this podcast.