This Will Change The Building Industry

ep. #121 Sean Hardwick from Hardwick Projects takes us on a nostalgic journey through traditional apprenticeships, underscoring the growth that comes from learning under seasoned builders. We touch on the transition from apprentice to teacher and the hurdles faced in moving from practical work to academic settings. The episode wraps up with a focus on the power of clear communication within the industry, the significance of integrity in delivering quality, and Sean’s insights on balancing work with personal life. 

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Chapters

• 0:00 Building Industry Ambassadors and Podcasts
• 5:13 The Dwindling Number of Apprentices
• 17:14 Apprentice Training and Social Media Influence
• 29:43 Craftsmanship and Apprentice Teaching
• 37:57 Improving Communication in the Industry
• 47:33 Importance of Clear Communication in Construction
• 1:00:45 Prioritizing Integrity in Construction Industry
• 1:08:03 Early Childhood Influence on Construction Career
• 1:20:02 Personal Growth and Career Milestones
• 1:22:57 Brand Evolution and Business Challenges
• 1:30:10 Daily Routine and Building Business Success
• 1:39:42 Building Industry Podcast Promotion

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:26

what you say is you know, I apply in my day, and I think there's a lot to be said about that. For me it's all about value. You know, like when you're in that mindset of on site and everyone's just cracking away, it's awesome. It's a good vibe, Like it's such a great vibe. I'm a fringe of ACT and she owned a property out there. She owned a f***ing donkey farm, a miniature donkey farm. Right, this can go out to the public yeah, it's all good.

Speaker 2: 0:49

It's all good. We'll leave all this shit in. This is a real deal here, mate. G'day guys, welcome back to another episode of Level Up. We are back in the shed today for another cracking episode. This one's going to be full of laughs, I think. Um, I don't even know where to start. Where do we meet, mate?

Speaker 1: 1:11

well, we actually, you know it's. It could be whether it's going to embarrass you or not, but it was a dating app and and I was actually quite surprised that you wanted to reached out to me from for all the way from Brisbane, because you know I'm in the in the cold suburb of Canberra.

Speaker 2: 1:25

So, yeah, but yeah, look guys, today we got uh sean um, I get names wrong all the time is it hard wicks, hardwick projects, yeah, yeah. So sean, sean's come up from canberra. As you just heard, we met on a dating app. So, uh sean flew up from canberra yesterday afternoon and, um, I was catching up at the local uh with a few of the live life build members and I invited Sean along. He walked into a bunch of builders that he's never met before and one of them's asked him where did we meet? And I was already halfway in the middle of a conversation I heard behind me, him say that we met on a dating app.

Speaker 1: 2:07

You've got to break the ice somehow, dwayne, if I can make the room comfortable, Every conversation that was getting had at that table stopped instantly yeah, they did.

Speaker 1: 2:17

Yeah, yeah, yeah, I don't know who they were more surprised at me or you. Mate, thanks for coming up. Yeah, no, I appreciate it Like. I'm a big supporter of this whole movement, the whole Level Up movement, and I've been listening to your, you know, a good couple of years, I mean since the first one. So it's uh, it's an absolute, absolute honor to be, to be here in the hot seat and um bit surreal to be here in the shed. You know it was uh. When you you gave me the uh reached out um through tinder, it was. You know, when you reached out um, it was uh. Yeah, it was a. It was an experience I'll never forget, you know, yeah no man, I'm super proud of you here.

Speaker 2: 2:50

Just watch the tapping on the chair, mate, because it'll be going through the microphone. Oh rightio, just a nervous one. No need to be nervous, mate. No need to be nervous. I'm really excited about this. So, like, how we actually met was through Instagram. Yep, a little bit of messaging backwards and forwards, yeah, but it wasn't really so much about building. You were really passionate about apprentices.

Speaker 1: 3:14

Yeah, so I mean, that's the reason I reached out to you. It was a simple newspaper sort of campaign that was in touch with a journalist there in Canberra and yeah, they reached out to us wanting some insight on the recent decline at the Apprentice scene in construction, across all forms, really. But yeah, and then I was just looking for a basic ambassador, like someone who I could reach out to, that could spread a message, and I think that's what it's all about is reaching out to the public and to those who you know have the same intention, you know.

Speaker 2: 3:57

So yeah, Look, mate, our associations and industry bodies and stuff, they're not fucking helping us. So we want to change this industry.

Speaker 1: 4:04

We've got to do it ourselves. Yeah, exactly you know. So I think that's why this whole movement of being able to publicise this locally is really important. I think podcasts are a great thing for that, and they just resonate with the general public, with the everyday person. They really do.

Speaker 2: 4:23

Well, I can't get it out of my head, mate, because you were saying last night that you and your missus listen to the podcast while you're having a session. Yeah, yeah. What does that mean?

Speaker 1: 4:31

yeah, no no, it's just a sunday session, not a session session, but a sunday session no, we, we, she in particular, yeah, she, um, she really um, enjoys listening to you as well. You know, from the first podcast, you know she said, wow, this guy really has good intentions, you know, and he's and he's captivating, he's great to listen to, he's got a lot of knowledge and and I said, yeah, I know that's. You know what I've been, what I've been listening to. And then, yeah, just a bit of a. You know it's not a complete tradition, but you know, like a sunday, like we'll like to listen to a couple of podcasts and, uh, it's awesome as I'm ironing my shirts, you know, just um, doing the monday and activities on a sunday afternoon before you go steer into monday and, uh, tackle it.

Speaker 2: 5:12

So it's unreal, mate. So what? What is, what is your story like? What's your um? What's the message you want to get out there about apprentices?

Speaker 1: 5:19

so I mean, I think, just addressing the current um status of of why, um, there is such a shortage. I mean the answer is why, um? Why do you think there is? Look, it's a. You know there's influences now in the world, a lot of digital influences that I feel you know are having some impact. You know it's a lot easier for people and young people to make money these days, you know, through that digital world and that digital marketing you know which. You know it's all about keeping up with the times and keeping up with the rhythm and flow of life. So you know it's a tough one, you know. And then, whether you know it's influenced from parents. I mean there's parents, there's schooling, there's government. You know industry leaders that I don't think are supporting, you know, apprentices as well as they should.

Speaker 1: 6:18

In this, what I'm going to call a crisis, you know. I think you're saying it is a crisis. It is. I mean the stats show like the numbers are there, as you're always saying, as we're always saying, the numbers just don't lie. And you know, from 2021, when we had 400, you know there was almost 400 applicants or commencements, you know we'll call it. And there was 100, I think, in that year, 21,. There was 190 completions, and this is in Canberra, is it? This is ACT Carpenters? Yeah, yeah, so I should point that out. Yeah, act Carpenters. Yeah, 2021, 22,. There was 400 as well, with a similar number.

Speaker 1: 6:51

So over 400 signing up 400 signing up, but less than 50% yeah, 190-odd completions. Now this year there's 100. Now we're yet to close the year out, of course, so the numbers aren't as accurate as what they have been. Like the stats, the data's not quite there yet, but this year we've got 100 apprentices in the city yep, just a hundred, that's it. You know, um, and at this stage there's 20 completions, so I've got two, so you take them out, there's 18. You know those, those numbers are just staggering, you know it is staggering and there needs to be something done before.

Speaker 1: 7:29

Uh, you know, there's a, there's a um, there's big, there's high demand on movement in the construction industry, there's, you know, budgets in place, there's expectations to be set for new dwellings and it's just not going to be met. You know, if we just being able to pull labor and um, and and and other people in that have a, you know, have an idea, I think it's having educated people, um, like a an organization a training institute is very important.

Speaker 1: 8:02

Those three, four years of a of an apprenticeship is very important. It's it's a really hard.

Speaker 2: 8:06

one mate like I, I've done a couple of um speaking gigs now. Like up here in Brisbane, the trade like we've got a few private trade colleges Yep, they've got me in to talk to the kids. Tell them my story, yep, and just be very blunt with them, yeah, and tell them how it is. Yep, I actually did one I don't know what was it, shay four or six weeks ago. Yep, weeks ago, yep, um, and there was we're going back to do another one, but there was, I think, in that room. Uh, there was a bit over 100, um, it was across the board. So at this trade school, yep, they do everything from hairdressing to building to everything yep, um, there was over 100 in the room.

Speaker 2: 8:47

And, mate, the teachers could not believe, like they obviously a lot of people that want to get into a trade are. I don't know. We don't like sitting in classrooms and being told what to do and stuff, so we're generally sort of having a bit of a muck around and chatting and all that sort of shit. The teachers all come up to me afterwards and they said we've never seen a room so quiet and everyone was so engaged and listening, and for half an hour after it kids were coming up shaking my hand thanking me. So I feel there needs to be more real life experience put in front of these kids. But I've got a few very strong opinions on this and I know it's probably going to piss a few people off. But I don't believe kids are hardworking anymore, or very few of them. I feel it goes all the way back to school. There's not a lot of discipline and you see it just with the crime rates now.

Speaker 1: 9:41

People don't respect any services ambulance, police, fire brigades, all that I think you could look back at it and just say punishment now is almost a crime. But there's so many different forms of punishment which are valuable, you know, like they're very but there has to be.

Speaker 2: 9:55

For me there has to be. Like I look, I the I don't think the cane hurt anyone. Like you, it taught you. Like I got it a couple of times, but you, you knew there was boundaries, yep, and if you break those boundaries there was a consequence. Yeah, yeah, and what I see now from like I couldn't even tell you the numbers of apprentices we've tried in the last six years. Like it'd be, it'd have to be 30, 40 plus. Yeah, yeah, yeah, like we've currently got three Yep, but I see so many of them that come to us, they want to get in the trade.

Speaker 2: 10:27

Yep, come to us, they want to get in the trade. Yep, I couldn't even tell you again the ones that have turned up and they've lasted one day and haven't come back, yeah, okay, they just they don't like being told what to do yep, they don't like showing, like trying to get them to show up continually on time. Like I don't know what you're like, but our rules are everyone must be on site yep, 15 to 20 minutes prior to start time. Gear out on on site, ready to start work.

Speaker 1: 10:52

That's right. Yeah, that level of expectation. At 7 o'clock, 5 past 7, guns should be smoking and you have that time. That time's valuable too, because your staff can rock up to site. There's something to be said about having a conversation on the road. That's just what we do, and you have that little bit of time to have your coffee, get your tools out, get them on site and then by that time you know you're ready to go. At 7 o'clock. Yeah, the first two-hour period of the day is the most valuable period of the day. That's 7 till 9. Yeah, I always find that that sets you up for the day. So to put you in good steed, rocking up at a quarter pass, 20 past seven even five pass and then you're rushing to get your gear in.

Speaker 2: 11:35

You know like it just, it's just no good. It doesn't build culture, it doesn't build good teamwork but the other I feel like the other really big problem is social media. Yeah, like, oh and and distraction. Well, you've got that you mentioned about the influencing and stuff, but just the distraction and staying up late at night and not getting a good sleep.

Speaker 1: 11:54

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Look, there's a lot to be said about it. And you know, like even from you know, from each generation. You know like I've found myself getting caught up in the marketing side of the business. You know, and you know you've got to apply a fair bit of attention to it and you get captured by the audience. You know like it's very in your face, you know, so you can't avoid it. Sometimes you just can't avoid you know being distracted by that. I'm doing it for a purpose? Yeah, of course.

Speaker 2: 12:26

And look, I'm the first to put my hand up. I get sucked into it more often than I'd like to. But, I've got this rule that I'm continually trying to repeat to myself that I stick to. Like I get on, I do my posting and get off. If there's comments and things there, I'll try and reply on that. But I try my hardest to avoid, but it is so powerful.

Speaker 2: 12:46

It is very powerful, yeah, and the reason it's so powerful is because got all the shit that we're fed everything we like. That's right. Yeah, if you start, yeah, commenting or liking or looking at fall, driving or camping, or, yeah, fitness, yep it just keeps feeding it to you.

Speaker 1: 13:00

Yeah, yeah, yeah. But I mean, how, how do you control that beast? It ain't going nowhere, you know. So how you know, how do you control that?

Speaker 2: 13:08

uh, yeah, I'm not sure, but I I think it's a hard question I mean it's, it's.

Speaker 1: 13:11

It's almost an unanswerable question.

Speaker 2: 13:13

Yeah, but I think it's just making people aware of it. Like yeah, that's true, I pulled one of my young guys up yesterday morning. I just said like I was on site early, same time as them, and yeah, send him. What's wrong? Man, you look, you're really tired. Yeah, yeah. He's like oh yeah, I'm not sleeping. I'm not. Yeah, yeah, you're not sleeping. I'm like, yeah, you're not sleeping because you're on your fucking phone.

Speaker 1: 13:30

He's on the phone. Yeah, yeah, I mean, I'm a big believer in that. You know rest time, you know trying to stay off the phone. You know trying to have a window of five minutes. You know of that screen time this is for myself and having, you know, lamps on in the bedroom having those lights, you know it stimulates your brain like it shouldn't happen, you know.

Speaker 2: 13:57

So how do we like? What do we do? What, what? What's the messaging we need to get out to young people? Because I, I see a lot of things that are going to happen through what's going on now and I've been saying this for years like, yep, the worst one. I believe that, like, people are complaining about the cost of housing now, yep, I see personally in my own business, um, our team's getting slower and slower because there's a there's far more on time needing to be spent with new, new staff.

Speaker 1: 14:26

Yep, yep, um, you're talking, you know, just in the management of, of staff management, in the, in the way of um, of making you know, making sure that they're comfortable, and things like that. Is that what you mean, like? No, I'm just talking about the amount of work that gets done.

Speaker 2: 14:44

Yeah right, just the volume of work. Like I think back to when I was an apprentice and even when I started contracting like you're talking about. Sorry, the volume of work.

Speaker 1: 14:50

Yeah, you just I mean how much you've got on the books. Yeah, yeah, yeah so.

Speaker 2: 14:54

I see our jobs getting slower and slower and look, that's a two-edged sword, like it's not just because of the younger people coming through and the more time being spent with them. It's the way we're building has improved and there's a lot more time now spent building. You're not just throwing up a frame now and putting foil on it. You're building a healthier home.

Speaker 1: 15:15

It's involved, you know, and that takes time.

Speaker 2: 15:17

Yeah, I get that, but I see that adding to the cost of housing Like what a carpenter or what a carpentry company or what any contractor used to charge even four years ago compared to now, is quite like you're talking 20 or 30% more.

Speaker 2: 15:37

Yeah, 100% Like where are we going to be in 10 years, 20 years, 30 years? Like it's just going to continue to increase? Yeah, well, and then, just so, the work ethic. I think that probably ties it up in a couple of words Like work ethic, I think needs to improve. Work ethic, I think needs to improve, attitude needs to improve. But I feel the biggest problem we have and I think it actually ties in with what you spoke about first, people expect to come into their apprenticeship, get paid really, really well, get their papers signed off and go straight on to $60 or $70 an hour.

Speaker 2: 16:16

Yeah, of course no one values that time anymore, or everyone wants everything right now, instantly and going back to the demand of the.

Speaker 1: 16:28

You know like it's in your face, you know like that's the whole. People are just, you know, brainwashed by all of that. So that's the expectation in life now. You want things straight away, you want it clean, you want it tidy, you want it now.

Speaker 2: 16:39

You know, yeah, so they finish their time and they think that they're worth 60 or 70 bucks an hour and they're not working up the levels. Yeah, for me it's all about value. You get paid, depending on the value you add to a business. Yep, exactly.

Speaker 1: 17:13

I don't know if that's something that needs to be taught more in schools or by employers bodies. And then coming down from there and and you know, having the um I'm lost for words here um, the um, the, the um, training organizations, um, you know like their influence. You know like I was only talking. You know I'm staying here in brisbane with a good friend, and and and his partner, um. You know she's got a recruitment agency, um ad staff and it's a really, really great um recruitment and she's yet she's had it for a long time. She's very invested in her apprentices and you know we were only just talking on the topic this morning of she wants to put together, you know, like, a bunch of sponsors to be able to put on a, like an event that recognises the apprentices at the end of their apprenticeship. I mean, we don't, unless you do something yourself within the company you know um to to give them that recognition I think you know that's important.

Speaker 1: 17:58

You know the incentives for the imp, for the, for the apprentices, um, you know, like that's, they're all the things that are going to sort of make up that um, that that level of patience in a way, you know, if they have those little incentives, those goals you know to reach, that's not a big pay packet, you know, um, that's not a a line of credit that's over 50, 60 fucking thousand dollars or whatever it is.

Speaker 2: 18:25

You know, yeah they need to, like I don't think that that sort of helps.

Speaker 1: 18:29

I think that worsens the situation. When I was an apprentice I had an $800 tool bonus and that I will never forget it. I remember going to Sydney Tools there in Tarrant Point and I remember going in there, spending the $800 on the tools and just having that Makita bag, as you do when you're a young fella, and that was valuable, you know, because you had that incentive there. So going back to you know um the, the, the, the incentives today, I think it's a little bit. I think it's a little bit um you know um you know, it's just not put, put in place.

Speaker 1: 19:08

Very well, you know, Um yeah.

Speaker 2: 19:12

It's and again, you know it's just not put in place very well. You know, yeah, yeah, and again, I guess there's lots of reasons we can talk about, but more and more, I think it's just becoming more obvious that it's the social media that's probably the biggest problem. Like that instant gratification, like that's just gone across everything. Yeah, like what people get paid, how quickly they become qualified, like everyone, like we've just said, everyone wants it straight away, yeah, yeah, yeah. Quality of work yeah, um, like I, we actually had to give one of our apprentices a written warning last week, um, because I rocked up to site and was on the phone and was standing up on the um front of the house and was looking down to the backyard where they were working and, yep, he didn't realize I was there and for a good 10 minutes, 15 minutes, he was just standing there flicking on his phone. He's fucking around, yeah, and yeah, like to me that's disgusting. Yeah, of course, and in my day, yep, I would never, ever have even thought about getting my phone out of my lunchbox.

Speaker 1: 20:09

yep and if I, if I did, I mean in your day you didn't have that distraction.

Speaker 2: 20:15

Well mate, I had a Nokia 3210. What was it? 100 digits or something? Play Snake.

Speaker 1: 20:21

However, that was quite distracting, but you know you didn't have that incident. I think it's the networking that goes on in there and if you make a comment on something and someone else comment, you want to know what that response is. It's all that rapid response which is at the end of the day. It's a distraction from what you're doing, your daily job, which requires a lot of attention during the day. You're working with tools. It can be a dangerous environment. You're working with a team. It's all got to flow Like I tell all my young guys it's definitely, you know.

Speaker 2: 20:51

It's a contributor, you know the social media definitely, and then everyone's in each other's ears.

Speaker 1: 21:00

You know more of a distraction than what we think you know when you dive in.

Speaker 2: 21:05

And it's costing. That's what I was getting to before Like all that wasted time, like that's costing all of us because the cost of everything just continues to go up because worth ethics dropping, speed and just the ability to do a task in an efficient manner is dropping. But I tell my guys I don't know. We've had a couple of really, really good apprentices over the last few years. One of them actually won Apprentice of the Year, young Alex. He's gone on to do over the last two or three years he's out on his own.

Speaker 1: 23:05

When did he leave? At what period? Once he finished his apprenticeship, did he stay on with you for a while?

Speaker 2: 23:12

Well, no, and that's something that took me a while to get over, of course yeah.

Speaker 2: 23:18

Because he was no different mate, like he finished his time. And so I have the conversation with all my team like, yep, I will pay you whatever you want if you're adding that value to my business. Yeah, so, yep, and value to me is no complaints by the other guys on site. Yep, me turning up and what I've asked to be done getting done. Yep, um, solutions being found instead of just like making everything a problem. Yeah, feedback from supervisor clients.

Speaker 2: 23:46

And so I still remember it, like I remember him leaving, like he finished his time. And then, about four weeks later, we were at the back of the ute having a conversation and he was sort of telling me oh, it's not all about the money. I know I need to learn a lot more. And what do you know? Four weeks later, if someone's another builder that is chasing employees and look, I get it. I don't wanna hold anyone back from earning money, but you get a builder call like you get a bill. They see an ad from another builder paying 50, 60 bucks an hour for carpentry. They're a month out of their time. They're qualified Like, yeah, mate, I'm a chippy.

Speaker 2: 24:24

No worries at all. That builder doesn't know, all the shit they don't know puts them on. And then all of a sudden we've got renovations and new homes full of shit that is built wrong because they don't have the runs on the board.

Speaker 1: 24:36

Yeah. So I mean you know this is a long shot, but where they have something in place, you know in in an employment agreement or or you know the the, the employment contract you know that says you know for you to remain on for 12 months post your apprenticeship, you know whether I, I definitely believe that.

Speaker 2: 24:54

they're like same as when you get your builders, like when you get your builder's license. When you get your builder's license, you have to have a minimum amount of experience. Exactly, you do, yeah, and obviously they do prior recognition and all that sort of.

Speaker 1: 25:05

Thing.

Speaker 2: 25:05

Yeah, the RPLs, yeah, but I believe that any apprentice across the board plumbers, sparkies, plasterers, like everybody should not be allowed to contract and work for themselves for a minimum of two years. Yeah, okay, yep, yep, I agree, I completely agree. You just do not have the experience.

Speaker 1: 25:23

And that's honoring the employer as well for your time to be, you know, valued for going through that process of the apprenticeship. And then you know, so you're as the employer, you know you're getting a return in. You know if we're talking in a business, you know perspective, you know you're getting a return in. You know if we're talking in a business, you know perspective, you know it's, you're getting that return. And then also, you know it's education for, for the, for the employee. You know, like this is now the real world, I'm going to throw you into this, into this category, into this hierarchy, and you're going to fulfill these tasks and you know that will set you up for if you want to, if you want to head on.

Speaker 2: 26:01

You know, after that, 24 months after that, yeah, and it's not about um, holding them back, it's about, for me, it's about them learning what they need to know, because you can't. Yeah, yep, there's a few trades that in four years, you might pick up everything. But, yeah, yeah, well, actually there's a few trades that in four years, you might pick up everything. But, yeah, yeah, well, actually there's even carbon most trades. You, you should know what you need to know, how to do your job in four years I think you should know what your job is.

Speaker 2: 26:28

You know halfway through your third year, but what you don't get to know is the experience of different situations that come up, of course, through doing what you do, and that comes with the independence you know so that comes with the supervising and having that weight on the shoulders on the building site.

Speaker 1: 26:44

Calling shots, making the phone calls, looking at the numbers, going fuck where. So not not?

Speaker 2: 26:50

only will we end up with a country full of better and more experienced trades people. There'll be a shitload less defects, yeah, of course. Yeah, it'll help the industry. Yeah, but the entire industry. So with that.

Speaker 1: 27:02

So were you saying now that the apprenticeship, you know, would be a six-year term, in you know, because there's got to be some form of locked in agreement, in place, some legislation?

Speaker 2: 27:15

you could almost say that that is what the it probably makes it a bit harder because, like, they have all these training organisations now, so a lot of apprentices aren't actually signed to an employee. They're signed to a company that farms them out to different employees. Yeah, so, whereas I'm old school, like I believe that an apprentice should be working with a company for their entire period, if you're getting shopped around and there's companies out there that are shopping apprentices around, like labour for hire, the HIAs, the MBAs, those organisations as well, and also your recruitments.

Speaker 2: 27:51

And what young person or mature age apprentice is going to learn their trade correctly? If someone's bringing up, hey, I need some labor for a week, they go and do a little bit over here and then, oh no, I'm finished with this, and then you go over there. It's disjointed.

Speaker 2: 28:05

It's, it's, it's yeah for their, for their own wellbeing, and and and I personally, believe that comes back from the people that are making the rules, haven't worked in our industry and don't understand it. You're talking the bureaucratic world, yeah, especially in the States. I'm seeing it a lot at the moment. You've got a lot of these wealthy people that are seeing that the construction industry is a place to make a lot of money and so they're coming up with all these schemes to fast track apprentices, right, yeah, and so there's one in the States at the moment. I'm not going to name any names, but, like this guy thinks, because he's got a heap of money, he's going to employ some teachers and he's going to fast track immigrants to get their trade, their contracting license. Yeah, you can't fast track a trade?

Speaker 3: 28:55

Not at all. Yeah, but you can't fast-track a trade you can't fast-track it?

Speaker 1: 28:57

Not at all, not at all.

Speaker 2: 28:58

The only way to learn is to physically be on site doing the work.

Speaker 1: 29:02

The curriculum is tight as it is. You know, like I really think, like I'm just looking at the curriculum at the training institute. So, whether it be TAFE or CIT, whatever it be, you know, like I think that is still quite compressed. You know it could go out for a lot longer, but just the on-site experience. Yeah, you can't fast track that. You know like, like I said before, I have a level of expectation that you know, during the third year, you know that's when you're developing your wings and you're pretty much almost ready to fly out of the next you know, so to say, but you can't um.

Speaker 1: 29:35

And then that next year and a half you know until you end your fourth year, that's, that's still. You can't um. And then that next year and a half you know until you end your fourth year, that's, that's still.

Speaker 2: 29:40

You can't fast track it yeah, it's a story, I don't know. Like I think I'm definitely old school, like I think I think all apprentices need to be signed to the same employee, or or maybe cap it at two or three for their, like I, I did two and, yep, I'm really grateful. Like I got basically two years experience with a custom home builder. That was just yep, superb craftsman, yeah. And then I got two years experience doing volume building, yeah, okay, so I learned the quality, but then I also learned the speed yeah, yeah, um yeah, so I think it's, and again it's.

Speaker 2: 30:11

we're talking about experience, but I was taught I was brought up old school so, like, even once I got signed off, I knew that I wasn't worth what the tradies were worth, like. I knew that I had to work my way up and the only way for me to work my way up was to get on the ground and physically do the work and show people what I could deliver. Yeah, and as I delivered more, the people I was working for kept rewarding me for kept rewarding me. Yeah, yeah. So, yeah, my, I'm not sure how it would work, but I feel like after the apprenticeship period, there needs to be a two-year period where you're allowed to go and work for other employees but you're not allowed to start your own business okay, yeah, yeah, yep.

Speaker 1: 30:53

I mean, I can't see how that wouldn't work. You know, and and I think it's certainly something that you know I'm losing my words here, so we're going to have to cut this part out.

Speaker 2: 31:04

It's all right, mate. It's all right. Shay's a good editor. This is where the real had the train of thought, Mate we'll leave all this shit in. This is a real deal here, mate yeah right, you know what I actually did.

Speaker 1: 31:13

start focusing, focusing on the sweat dripping down your bloody chest. It is hot in the shed today. I started focusing on the sweat you know, the old shed you can tell it's ramping up. We're probably about 32 outside now. I reckon, mate, I'm sitting here thinking it's a lovely day, you're from Canberra and you used to Well, look, if I knew that the shed wasn't lined, I probably would have drove up, brought me trailer and we could have tinkered away yesterday instead of going to dinner. You know and just line the shed.

Speaker 2: 31:45

So it made today a bit easier um the um that's all staying in, by the way, yeah, that's all that's all staying in there, mate that's the sort of stuff that you and your missus listen to on your sunday session that's exactly right you know, I'm probably gonna laugh at my own podcast.

Speaker 1: 31:55

I'm that guy, you know.

Speaker 2: 31:57

Yeah, I'm that fuck weird. What else like in in the work that you're doing? Because you've um, you got involved in some articles in the local papers down there.

Speaker 1: 32:07

Yeah, yeah, yep, so that's a yeah, a local journalist journalist, um, he was actually um, the father of um, an apprentice that I had um for a long time. He was um. He's still, to this day, Hardwick's longest standing member. He did move on. He got poached from from CIT and CIT is Capital Institute of Technology in Canberra, so that is, you know, equivalent of TAFE. And, yeah, they got, they got a hold of him and that was a second apprentice actually that that CIT got a hold of him and that was a second apprentice actually that CIT got a hold of. We had another apprentice, he was in his fourth year and then he got an offer a great apprentice too. We're still very good friends and, yeah, I think he was in his fourth year and I ended up signing him off. He ended up moving down to Melbourne, but the SCIT approached him and offered him it was somewhere around the 90 grand.

Speaker 2: 33:05

To go and be a trainer.

Speaker 1: 33:06

To go and be a trainer. So he's now teaching and he had to get signed off, so I ended up signing him off.

Speaker 2: 33:12

Do you think he was ready to teach people?

Speaker 1: 33:16

It's debatable. He's going to watch this podcast. It's debatable. He's going to watch this podcast? Um, it's debatable. He, I don't think he had he had the, the craft, he had the passion, he had the craft and he was a very intelligent man. You know, he is a very intelligent man. He's very academic as well. You know, like he, uh, he came from environmental science. You know, when he, when I interviewed him, I just went fuck, you know, yeah, I'm sitting in front of an academic here, you know. So he could apply that knowledge, you know, to students, which I found, you know, valuable. You know. So, as far as the experience on site, no, I don't believe that he did have that, you know, and he knew it himself. You know, a couple of times he said I'm walking into a storm here.

Speaker 2: 34:03

I do feel that that is another big part of the problem is that a lot of these people and the train just going back.

Speaker 1: 34:09

Sorry to James as well. You know whether I can name names on here.

Speaker 1: 34:12

Oh, you've dropped his name now, yeah or Pup, we call him, you know, because he was the pup when he started. He's still the pup now, but he, you know, he went into. He had a lot of knowledge. You know, like, he did, come into the trade, into the industry, with zero knowledge. You know he was a telemarketer from memory when he came to me. But he, you know, he developed a lot of knowledge, a lot of skill over the year and you know he, you know, I know I feel that he was. You know, the only thing he didn't have on his side was was the um assertiveness. You know he wasn't very assertive, so you know there was. I mean, whether you can find the perfect um teacher, you know or not, but well, we'll get.

Speaker 2: 34:51

I want to jump into that. So, yeah, I do think that is a that's definitely. Another huge problem is the people that are teaching. There's probably a few of them that shouldn't be teaching, yep, but I think we all need to be taught how to teach.

Speaker 1: 35:07

Yeah, of course.

Speaker 3: 35:08

Of course I know that they did have to go through some training you know there was some accredited oh us Right, something that I've been really becoming aware of. Yeah, look, that's a good topic to discuss.

Speaker 1: 35:21

That's a great topic, you know for us to do some sort of training, like it doesn't have to be, you know, like a too lengthy course, but just to get the basics down, pat. Yeah, to be able to host apprentices and things like that for sure.

Speaker 2: 35:35

A few things that have come up in my building business over the last sort of 18 months, two years um and it's something that's really on my radar now. Like I'm really trying to work with my team, um, about communication and like so I put my hand up constantly to take ownership for things and to show them that it's okay to make a mistake. Yeah, but it's how we deal with it.

Speaker 2: 35:57

Very important, but I see more and more like now that I'm becoming more and more aware of it like I see, we've got some incredible trade I call them craftsmen that work for us.

Speaker 2: 36:07

That's what we are, yeah and but I see their fresh, their constant frustration because a younger person or even other tradie that's working with them isn't doing it how they've asked it to be done, or they're not understanding it, or they're making more mistakes. And the more that I watch this happen, it's all their fault. Yeah, like they're not communicating it properly and like I had this wall, this beautiful wall that's behind us here.

Speaker 2: 36:38

Yeah, We've heard about the wall, dwight, but I'm going to give this as a real life example, because this is this is exactly what I'm talking about. So, um, I'll keep it short, but, like two, two, three days ago, uh, we had a new project that we're doing the cut and fill on, starting to do some retaining wall works and once we've cut the site, the neighboring property, uh, when they've done their retaining wall, their foundations are 600 mil into our property and now it's, it's stuffed up. Actually, it's actually stuffed up. The house is on, we've. So. Is the boundary out?

Speaker 2: 37:12

no, the boundary's fine, but they've just over poured all their concrete into our property, but because it's a meter and a half under the ground. Until we did did our site cut. We weren't aware of it, wow, okay, anyway, long story short, that house.

Speaker 1: 37:23

That's a Queensland thing for sure.

Speaker 2: 37:26

That's basically been put on hold. Yeah, and we've had to reschedule some things, yep. And so, because of that, yesterday one of my leading carpenters and the apprentice that is working with him I just gave him some random tasks to do, which are just little shitty jobs. I've been sitting around and we've had so much fucking shit going on Like I haven't been able to line this shed, like I want to line the whole shed. I said I'd come up early.

Speaker 2: 37:50

Yeah, You're hanging around, mate. That's what we're doing this afternoon. Okay, I'll delay the flight. Long story short. I got him in here yesterday. I was like mate, I want to line the shed, I want a new backdrop for the podcast. This is a perfect opportunity. He's only been with us about six, seven months. First year yeah, first year Hardly done any framing. So, mate, this is a perfect opportunity. I said I don't care if you fuck it up. I drew him a drawing of a u-shape yep, um, because I wanted this backdrop. And then I wanted two wings coming outside. And then we sit in here and it looks like we're in this studio yeah, yeah, anyway.

Speaker 2: 38:26

Shay comes up to me when I get back to the office yesterday and says oh, I don't know what they've done down there, it doesn't really work. And I, he said, I can still see shit in the shed. Yeah, yeah. So what are you talking about?

Speaker 1: 38:34

bring your cameras in closer shay's got the media brain on too, not the carpentry brain, but he knew something was going on.

Speaker 2: 38:40

And I just could not think what was. Why would it not work? Anyway, then he set up yesterday afternoon's podcast. I've walked in the door. I'm like what the hell is that? And so they've done exactly what I've asked. They've done a U-shape. Yeah, yeah, shaped. Yeah, yeah, the walls are going back the wrong way, yeah, yeah. And so I'm sitting here yesterday afternoon thinking about this, yeah, and I'm like well, they've done it that way. Number one I drew a u-shape, that's all I drew. Yep, you didn't give orientation, I didn't give orientation. No, and in the conversation we had, behind this wall is a heap of old, like windows and doors and shit from jobs, yep, and I talked to them about the reason I wanted to put the wall.

Speaker 1: 39:19

Here was to hide the mess. Yeah, right, okay. So it makes sense with the u-shape to hide the mess and have the fins. But so what I'm?

Speaker 2: 39:25

getting at is. That is completely on me 100 yeah I can't get frustrated that they haven't, and in the old days I would have yep, I would have been ringing him up yesterday afternoon going what the fuck are you doing, mate? Like it's for the podcast, it's meant to be like a u-shape, so we sit in it. Yep, and I know there's a lot of guys out there that would do that, but I can't get mad at them for doing this.

Speaker 2: 39:45

No, it's ownership you know you take on I should have put more detail into the explanation and on the drawing that u-shaped drawing I did I could have quite easily put one more line yep, and put outside of shed of course. Yeah, and they would have known that it went that way simple detail.

Speaker 1: 40:00

Yeah, yeah, so this, but you took ownership of it. That's, that's.

Speaker 2: 40:03

But to my point, it's, it's we're not taught how to teach, like. So in my head I've got this, I've got this in my head, like sitting that way, like to me, I've drawn a u-shape. That's what I want, yeah, yeah. And so I see it more, more with all the and it's not just my own carpentry team, like I see it happening constantly with all of our trades. Yeah, when they're explaining something to their employee or their apprentice or their contract or whatever it is, yeah, and I don't know if it's just because I'm more aware of it now, but I hear them saying things. I'm like can you're saying so? How is?

Speaker 2: 40:37

he supposed to understand what you're? Saying Of course yeah. And so I honestly feel a big improvement to our industry would be, and every like we need to be taught how to teach. Yeah, of course.

Speaker 1: 40:52

And who are you? What's you know? Who are you targeting that to? You're targeting that to just employers.

Speaker 2: 40:56

Everybody, or are you?

Speaker 1: 40:56

talking that to supervisors.

Speaker 2: 40:58

Are you talking to project managers?

Speaker 1: 40:59

Across the board, you know so how I mean. Like you know, let's start a movement. How do you do it, wayne?

Speaker 2: 41:05

Well, I'm going to do a shout out. Rick Rushton, if you're listening, mate, I've sent you an email. I need you to respond. But there's a Melbourne bloke, rick Rushton. He's done a bit of mentoring. He's done a couple a session for our Live, life, build community. Yep, he's got a really book called the Power of Connection. Okay, and it's simply about listening and communicating. Yeah, yep, and I just like so for anyone listening, go and listen to that book. Like that book made a huge impact on me the Power of Connection.

Speaker 2: 41:36

Okay, yeah, we'll put a Shay will put some links and stuff in here, but I know I'm talking about we need to be taught to teach, but a lot of it is just simply listening and communicating. And he talks a lot in his book about and I try and pull myself up on this all the time since I've read it and I'm more aware of it. But it's such a busy world and a lot of this again keeps coming back to the social media. But when you go home, have a think about this and just be aware of it. I'm not going home.

Speaker 1: 42:10

I'm staying up here for a long time. We're lining the shed Like.

Speaker 2: 42:15

have a think about how you communicate to people. Yeah.

Speaker 2: 42:17

Because I've become very aware of this and I pull myself up all the time, like in our heads. We're in such a fast world now that we want everything to keep happening. So, as someone's speaking to us before they've even finished the sentence or what they are telling us, we've already come up with a reaction for it yep, and that reaction, yeah, could be absolutely nothing to do with what they've just asked or told you. Yeah, but and so what it comes down to is you're not focused on what you're being told.

Speaker 1: 42:48

So, yeah, you're not, you're not absorbing so I've been saying to my team now especially my apprentices.

Speaker 2: 42:54

They've all got to have notebooks, yep, and they have to write shit down.

Speaker 1: 42:57

Great tool so you know I've got a notebook sitting there. It's, it's always with me. You know the notebook is always. I think it's an extremely great tool.

Speaker 2: 43:05

You know several notebooks if you got them, but you know just to write things down you know and I think there's whole other parts of this, like and I see my team and I'm I'm constantly trying to make them aware of it like, yep, because the other pressure is and again, it's the older guys that are worse at it, but they've come from the old school of hard knocks where everything's just head down, ass up, get into it. That's the only way to like. We have to make money. If we don't, if we don't get this done, the boss doesn't make money. We won't get paid. Yeah, yeah. And so I have to constantly be reminding them you need to stop and take the time to explain exactly what you're doing to whoever you're working with.

Speaker 1: 43:43

Yeah, yeah, if it takes a little bit longer, that is on me, yep, and I need to track all my data so that I can make sure I'm allowing enough anyway, yeah so yeah, but I think if you're putting some sort of training in place to refresh people of that, you know that's an important thing, like you said, because life's busy and you get caught up in the in the day-to-day in construction. You know the day-to-day is is very busy, so having a refresh I think would be would be something you know definitely worth it you know, but just the way we communicate, like we all communicate, yeah, just everything's quick.

Speaker 2: 44:16

Got to happen, got to happen, and I am bad for it. Like I will. I have a lot going on. I'll turn up to site. I'll be going through things, talking to people. I'm like right, guys, I'm running late. I've got to get to the next meeting.

Speaker 1: 44:27

Yeah, yeah I know exactly what you're talking about. You know those site visits that go for five minutes, ten minutes. It's a quick visual, everything's okay. You might need to drop something off or just have a quick communicate something, but you know it can be rushed. Don't get me wrong. I'm sure you do the same. You drive away from site and you go. I didn't apply enough of my time to them, you know, and to the project, you know I'm really big on like what the hand does and mine follows Like.

Speaker 2: 44:55

I'm really big on like now, even if we are quick, like everything gets like, whether it's on a sheet on the billboard wall or a sheet of cladding or a ply brace, whatever it is, but like, as you're talking to someone about something, you're drawing a picture. Yeah, of course, whether it's of a detail or a finish you want to achieve. Yeah.

Speaker 2: 45:14

Or we're standing beside our site whiteboard yeah, and we're together. Yeah, we're making a list what's happening over the next few days, yeah, and instead of just talking about it, yeah, no, write it down. Yeah, what's today's put today there. What's happening today, tomorrow's date, what's happening then? Yeah, and everyone on site can visually see it yep and apply.

Speaker 1: 45:32

And you know that sort of uh, that instruction portrayed as well. You know like who, what your audience is. Is it a first year apprentice or is it a supervisor who's been around for a long time? So you know, having that time, you know um to for them to understand it. You know I think is is important. You know, depending on their level of experience. I mean, how many times as an apprentice did you receive depending on their level of experience? I mean, how many times as an apprentice did you receive an instruction say yep, no worries, I got it. Your boss walks away and you're like what the fuck was he talking about?

Speaker 1: 45:58

you know, it's just it's, it's a fact, you know it really is, so you can educate to, to, um, you know to, to slow down a little bit and explain that a lot better yeah, we need to slow down, to go slow down, you know, but you know, but yeah, yeah, no, I agree.

Speaker 1: 46:12

The communication thing, like it's massive, like I am huge on it and I'm big on my team. You know about communicating and having. You know having the processes in place now. You know like the teams you can't. You know you've got no excuse. You know like the digital environment we live in. You know like we're currently going through Microsoft Teams we're only changing. Only as of last week we used communicated through Slack. I've heard that you use Slack a little bit. That's a great tool, but through email calendars, I'm all about just loading them up with information and then verbally as well, we're always talking, communicating. I cannot express that enough to the whole team. You know, to the whole industry, your clients. You know like there really needs to be.

Speaker 1: 46:57

You know you've got to be talking all the time.

Speaker 2: 46:59

There needs to be a team meeting Like on site. There should be some days where there's six team meetings. You need to be having a meeting every time you're starting a new task. Yeah, Another example in the last few days. We're installing a heap of hecka hoods on one of our jobs before the scaffold comes down. Yeah.

Speaker 2: 47:19

We've installed a shitload of hecka hoods over the last few years. Yeah yeah, what's a hecka hood? You don't know what a hecka hood is. Should I know what a hecka hood is? Heka hood Is. You don't know what a hecka hood is.

Speaker 1: 47:30

Should I know what a hecka hood is Hika hood? Is it a Queensland?

Speaker 2: 47:32

term. It's a Queensland thing, mate. They're a company that started. They're pre-folded window awnings, so I think they're out of like three mil plate or something. They're powder coated. Yeah, okay.

Speaker 1: 47:43

You give them the window Like a large scale. Yeah, they're 350, 300, 450, 600.

Speaker 2: 47:50

Never heard of a hacker. Hood mate. There you go.

Speaker 1: 47:52

I've learned something.

Speaker 2: 47:53

See, I listened and I asked a question.

Speaker 1: 47:56

Yeah, there you go.

Speaker 2: 47:57

But well, this could apply to a window flash or anything, but even though we've installed a lot of them, I didn't think about it Like we've got a lot of new team members over the last six months, yep, and like to the and the lead carpenter on this particular job is is a new guy or a newer guy, and we're just talking about installing the heck of hoods yeah, okay, yeah, yeah I've done them, yep, and I turned up to site after I'd done the first one and it wasn't what I wanted right and so again, it's completely on me.

Speaker 1: 48:31

Yeah, like he's installed it correctly, but they were going in blind, basically.

Speaker 2: 48:35

But he's never done it with us like I like them to sit like 10 mil above the window flashing so that any obviously any water in the cavity can still run out underneath them yeah, makes sense depending on where, like this one's on a weatherboard house, like depending on how far that is off the next weatherboard? Yeah, I'm quite happy to push them up a little bit.

Speaker 1: 48:54

So it's a neat silicon joint to the underside of the weatherboard, like yeah just those, those particulars as the builder that you, you know that you want to apply to the project. You need to make sure that there, if you don't and I am so guilty of that you know whether things can work the same way in, you know, in design, um, but your way is a little bit different and if that's how you want it done, you've got to make sure you communicate that. And there's, you know, countless times, you know that I've arrived on site and just gone.

Speaker 1: 49:24

That's not how I plan to have it there, but it works. And do you bite your tongue? Do you say, rip it down if you didn't communicate it? And you know, and there's a, there's an argument in place but you've got to have a conversation.

Speaker 2: 49:36

You've got to have the conversations before, though, but also and have the conversation at the time. Yeah, yeah, yeah, hey, boys like that, yeah, look, that's great up there.

Speaker 1: 49:43

That's not what I sort of was thinking, but yeah yeah, that's on me because I didn't tell you what to do. Express that you know.

Speaker 2: 49:50

like, yeah, definitely express that, that's the other thing that I've become more aware of, like, if you don't have those conversations after something's happened, they don't like. How do they know?

Speaker 1: 50:02

what they're meant to check with you. If nothing's said, then yeah, nothing learned, right?

Speaker 2: 50:05

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah so there's like all these little things, like, ultimately, everything we're talking about today to help our industry and, more so, help apprentices, like it's not rocket science.

Speaker 1: 50:17

No, it's not. No, it's not. And you know, like something. We're at a time now where something really needs to be done.

Speaker 2: 50:23

You know, I haven't looked at the numbers here up in Queensland. But do you know? You know, like, what the completion rates are? No, don't know, I'm off the top of my head, but I, yeah, we only we signed an apprentice up only. And why? Why do you? Why do you think?

Speaker 1: 50:38

you know, like, what you know, like, do you think that they're dropping off?

Speaker 2: 50:43

yeah, that they're dropping off oh, mate, like I said before, I'm a bit old school.

Speaker 1: 50:47

I do believe that it's hard work, getting scared of hard work yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1: 50:52

But my biggest fear with it all and you look at your wet trades and you know like brickies are becoming non-existent. They're not going to exist in 10 years time, they're just not. And we're introducing things like you know. Some other masonry products that are installed by carpenters, like your Hebel power panels are replacing brickwork. You know which is going to dominate the market there, in those rendered finishes. Anyway, you can't replace a brickie laying a brick though. No, you can't have a carpenter laying a brick. Unfortunately the set-out's just too involved. You know like it really is. It's just I do and the work you know like it's hard work, you know like it really is you know like it's a lot harder than it looks being a brickie mate.

Speaker 1: 51:33

Fuck. You know brickies, I mean, they used to be. We'd call them the backbone of the building industry. And now what? Now the carpenters are the backbone of the building industry, but no, we really did, you know, like brickies the plumbers that black you back in the day, mate.

Speaker 1: 51:41

They're not even there um back in the day back in the day they, you know like it was, it was the brickie set out. You know, like the bricky was the the, the foundation of the project in a way they'd put their first courses in and that was a slab box.

Speaker 1: 51:56

Their profile exactly you know that's where your windows went, your doors, first course was the template of the whole house, you know, and if that set out wasn't correct, you know you'd be fighting that all the way through. So they had a big you know, like they had a big um task to fulfill and um, you know, I think yeah, it's, it's sort of lost.

Speaker 2: 52:13

You know that like a different subject, I guess, but that is something that really shits me. What's that like we used to, we're the same and we still do it now. So we, uh, like my boys, we call them story sticks. Yep, um, story stick. I love a story stick yeah, I love a gauge, what's your what's your.

Speaker 1: 52:30

I love it I love a gauge stick.

Speaker 3: 52:31

I love a story stick you know it, I love a gauge stick. What's your version? I love a gauge stick. I love a story stick.

Speaker 1: 52:33

It's a set-out stick basically, you know like you're setting out your course as a brick.

Speaker 2: 52:37

We're going to do a.

Speaker 1: 52:38

And it's like a gauge stick in any regard, across any building application.

Speaker 2: 52:42

Cladding brickwork windows. Whatever like for cladding, Joinery gauge sticks you know there'll be a lot of people listening to this podcast that have no idea what a gauge.

Speaker 1: 52:52

I hope so, like I read like they're the sorts of things that you know make, make the. That takes all the guesswork out of it. You know like you can't fuck up if you have a some form of gauge stick or a story stick um. I've always called it a gay stick, but I do like the story stick. It sounds a lot better.

Speaker 2: 53:09

Everything to my boss was stories like we had a story stick. Yeah, you had to have off cuts of fibro shit in your nail bag and that was your story books.

Speaker 2: 53:16

Yeah, yeah, yeah, right, okay, so we're just doing a job at the moment where one of our craftsman, brad yep, has like there's a lot of detail and joinery heights and shit on it and he's done a story stick for the whole job and yep, um, we've only just been talking the last couple of weeks. We're going to have a team training day and we're going to talk about story sticks great the value of them great what I was getting at like the one thing that shits me.

Speaker 2: 53:39

Like we still do that. Like, if we're doing a job that's got brick work yep, um, depending on the job, yeah, we will still get the bricky in to do the brick work and then put his knockoff course on for the slab.

Speaker 1: 53:50

Yep, I know builders that don't even know what a knockoff course is yeah, yeah, um, I mean, it doesn't happen, especially in a project environment, project home environment, like it just doesn't.

Speaker 2: 53:59

Well, they just form their slabs out with a rebate exactly right you know what shits me is. I can't stand when you drive past houses these days, yep, and there's all cut bricks, yeah, yeah they, yeah, they cut bricks everywhere. The only bricks that ever used to get cut on jobs through my early days.

Speaker 1: 54:16

Yeah, but that's the set out that I was talking about before when I said the brickies, the backbone, like they were the set out kings, you know, because they'd take that time to set out. So it was less cutting. I mean cutting back then it was shit. But cutting back you you know, 30 years ago wasn't a fun task either.

Speaker 2: 54:36

So to mitigate, all of that labor and and that hard work, you know you get your set out. You get your set out right for a long time. Bricksies, like if they had to. They got the sore out, like whereas now you see a brick brickie, now the fucking source of everything comes out off the back of the back of the you.

Speaker 1: 54:50

That's right, yeah, yeah and that's just all, especially in. You know like, yeah, of course, a face brick. You know, like you want to make sure that's. You know the facade of that home. You know, um, it's, it's, yeah, it means so much, it has so much. You know credibility, yeah, um, you know, when you're seeing, when you're seeing bricks cut, it draws your eye away from you. Know, know the beauty of the structure.

Speaker 2: 55:13

So you know, yeah, there's a lot to be said about it.

Speaker 1: 55:14

There's a lot to be said, yeah.

Speaker 2: 55:16

But those sorts of little things are just getting pushed and pushed out. Yeah, do you think?

Speaker 1: 55:22

that comes down to this Cost, cost and this sped-up industry as well, that we've got to. You know, like cost is time, time is money.

Speaker 2: 55:31

Everyone you know everyone is slowly just cutting more and more corners yeah, to try and make a dollar, and then these corner cutting, yeah things I mean this.

Speaker 1: 55:45

You know this is a um you know like people are applying this type of science to life in general, in every you know in everything you know, yeah you know, like the, the cutting the corners. Not so much cutting the corners, but trying to find a faster way to get a similar outcome. You know, like but it's faster. Well, it's debatable, I guess if you had a brick base or you look at defects, liability periods, you know, like some of those, you know some of those sheets, I mean but look, if you have a thing about like if you set your bricks out correctly and there's minimal cuts, yep, that's got to be quicker than a brick.

Speaker 2: 56:24

You run them back to the saw or like constantly or even just the cost and the maintenance of the saw.

Speaker 1: 56:29

Yeah, like no, that makes a lot of sense.

Speaker 2: 56:31

Yeah, but it does really annoy me that these things are sneaking in and becoming normal.

Speaker 2: 56:40

But the reality is if you get a brickie, that let's give it. This is a real life example of everything we've talked about today. Yep, you get a brickie that comes through his brick. Apprenticeship finishes his time, so see a lot of stuff. You, mate. I'm off to run my own show and earn the big bucks. Yep, he hasn't like. He just thinks he can lay bricks. Yeah, he hasn't picked up on all the time that the boss is spending at the start of the job doing all the set out. Yeah, doesn't understand the value in it. Yep, he's all of a sudden he's out on his own yeah, running his own show.

Speaker 2: 57:14

Yep, he starts turning up to jobs for other builders yep, and just laying bricks and cutting bricks yeah, and if that, and if that that builder doesn't appreciate the effort of a brick set out and the and the aesthetics and how much better it is, yep, and that bricky now starts getting away with it. Yeah, that becomes the normal, it does. It's setting the trend he just starts working for all these other builders, yep. And he might get the odd builder that goes oh mate, we don't cut bricks, we've set the job out for bricks, yep. And then that guy argues well, I've never done that, this is the way I do it.

Speaker 1: 57:50

Yeah, yeah, yeah, this is how I was taught. Yeah, this is how I was taught. How many times have you heard this is how I was taught.

Speaker 2: 57:53

Yeah, Well, my first reaction to that mate, I don't give a fuck the way you're taught.

Speaker 1: 57:57

Yeah but I mean, don't you get this? If you're doing work on my site, this is how you're going to do it. Let's, this podcast is going to go all day. That set out should be. You know part of that first year. You know, like you should learn how to set out a home using. You know full bricks, wouldn't you not? Well, again. But then it's the time on site You're talking 20%, 80%. Is that what you're saying? Like you're learning most things on site.

Speaker 2: 58:31

No, a lot of that again comes, comes back like I actually had a meeting on this yesterday for a job we've got coming up next year. Yep, that has an enormous amount of detailed brickwork in it and so yesterday the architect and I were talking through the brick set out yeah right, okay, so those drawings when we get them, yeah, we'll have all the starting points. Yep, um, he it was, and so he was getting my feedback on board, like where? Where do I think it should start from? That's great how's?

Speaker 2: 58:57

it going to affect like um concrete and like there's. There's a lot of conversation yeah, okay yeah, so there's not too many architects and designers out there now that are thinking about that like I remember back to when I first started subbing yeah on the. I think it was a the page before the floor plan had the brick set out done like it was all on there.

Speaker 1: 59:20

To be quite honest with you, dwayne, I don't think I've ever seen a set of plans with a brick set out yeah yeah, I don't like, haven't you know? Yeah it's always, it's always.

Speaker 2: 59:31

You know it's, it's our set out, you know yeah it's always a discussion with the bricklayer you know, bricklayer and the builder um yeah, but there's like those little things that I just I think tying everything that we've been talking about today, like I feel really sorry for people that are going to be building homes in the next 10, 20, 30, 40 years yep, because they're just not going to get the quality that they should be getting. Like you see, yeah, like people I know builders now that think they're the best builders around yeah, and I've been through their jobs, yeah and like holy shit, like I've got to bite my tongue.

Speaker 2: 1:00:10

I'm like fuck me, are you serious that you've that's your standard. You're gonna hand that over to the client.

Speaker 1: 1:00:15

And you've got staff and you've got apprentices.

Speaker 2: 1:00:17

Yeah, I mean, I've had a very well-known builder I won't I'm not gonna talk about the exact situation, cause he'll listen to this and he'll know what I'm talking about but I pulled and there was some fit-off stuff that had been installed incorrectly and I said, mate, what's the go with that gap right down, like all around the bottom? Yeah? And he's like oh, the contractors didn't ask me what floor finishes they were, so they've just set it all up for carpet, right, okay, so it cuts out of the bag. Now we're talking about skirting, I guess. Yeah, yeah, yeah, so the carpetets in they haven't set the heights up correctly and there's a 10 mil gap between the carpet and the bottom of the skirting. What so? They've just run the skirting I think it had some timber floorings They've run the skirting around the timber flooring in the hallways and things and then just continued that same height in all the bedrooms, but in the bedrooms there's now this big gap between the carpet and the bottom of the skirting.

Speaker 1: 1:01:26

So we're talking smooth edge plus carpet. Like how tall are we talking? We'd be 50, 30 mil above.

Speaker 2: 1:01:32

Oh no, it was like a 10 to 20 mil gap. Yeah, yeah, right yeah.

Speaker 1: 1:01:36

But you're including the whole.

Speaker 2: 1:01:37

But, mate, the house was done, it was finished, it was painted and I'm like mate, why didn't you get the?

Speaker 2: 1:01:41

contractor back to fix that? Yeah, of course, yeah, painted. And he's like oh yeah, you know we've had conversations about it. But, and like to me, like my integrity, I would have, even if it cost me, if the contractor didn't want to come back. Well, number one, I would have walked the job when the contractor was finished and made sure everything was up to my standard Yep, and if it wasn't, he wouldn't have got his final payment until I was happy with it.

Speaker 1: 1:02:04

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2: 1:02:05

And number two, if he chose not to come back, I would have done it myself or got a member of my team to come and pull it off and do it properly.

Speaker 1: 1:02:14

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, is it like a final inspection, you know, like surely that sort of stuff gets picked up, you know?

Speaker 2: 1:02:20

But I think that ties in with everything we're talking about. Like people just aren't like people. Even people that say they are people, that think they're delivering these incredible homes, there's very few people that are committed 100% and have the integrity.

Speaker 1: 1:02:36

To that level of finish which is almost perfection.

Speaker 2: 1:02:39

Because it's going to hurt their back pocket. Yeah, yeah, yeah, Once again slowing down.

Speaker 1: 1:02:44

I think that's you know, that's the slogan of these podcasts is slow down you know, I will lose money, mate, before I hand a job over.

Speaker 2: 1:02:52

That is not up to my standard, and I don't care if it's hundreds of dollars, thousands of dollars or tens of thousands of dollars, hundreds of dollars, thousands of dollars or tens of thousands of dollars. If there is something that happens on my job sites, whether it's myself, my own team, one of our contractors, I will not hand a homeowner to a client unless it is up to my standard. Yeah, yeah, yeah, and I don't think there's enough of that integrity in our industry.

Speaker 1: 1:03:16

There's not. I mean it's addressing those. You know what would be defects. You know, like it's one of those things, it'll go into the defects liability period.

Speaker 1: 1:03:24

You know I can't stand that talk you know you hand that project over and it's a case of what have you got? You know to the client. You know we'll give you a couple of weeks. You know, if you come back to us with some defects, you know that's the attitude it should be and you should walk away from there going. We're going to have a few points, maybe one to ten. You know, like if we can get it under five. You know, like I've honed, I'll say you know myself I've really honed in over the last. You know, sort of 12, 18 months, couple of years of just, you know, trying to have a defects um list.

Speaker 1: 1:04:00

You know of zero mate you know, like that's, that's the target, you know um, there's always there's always some minor emissions, you know, but but I think it really like you've got to walk away from that job and and it's perfect, you know yeah we're the same, that we aim.

Speaker 2: 1:04:13

Look every job there's. There's some little things, but I'm of the opinion, mate, that we're just completely open with our clients, like we had a job we handed over recently and I can't remember what happened. Something like literally two days before handover fell on the glass sliding door and put a massive dent in the mullion.

Speaker 1: 1:04:35

Yeah right, and rather than Was it aluminium.

Speaker 2: 1:04:38

Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1: 1:04:39

Yeah.

Speaker 2: 1:04:39

But rather than just like think, oh shit, like we'll, uh, we'll just see if the owner picks that up or not. Yeah, like at handover meeting I just said, like I pointed out to the client, that's right, guys.

Speaker 1: 1:04:50

Well, if you've got your, I'm sorry to butt in, but if you've got your list, you've got your list of defects and I'll do a comparison. You know, and I hope I have some of our previous clients listening to this because they'll they'll know what I'm talking about and I'll have my list of incompletions.

Speaker 1: 1:05:03

I like to call them yeah and I'll go to that meeting, to that um, you know, to that defects mean I like to separate the hand over from from the defects walkthrough. You know I don't. I don't like to to integrate those two together. I used to do that but it always put a um. It put a bit of a downer on the whole experience of handing a project over because you've got to walk through and have a look at things that need to be addressed.

Speaker 2: 1:05:24

you know we do similar. We do the defects walkthrough a week prior to handover.

Speaker 1: 1:05:28

Exactly. Yeah, we do the same thing and that gives us a chance as well to quickly, before we hand keys over, to wrap it up and get things done. But I lost my train of thought. But going to heading into that meeting and having those things addressed before your client, you know you compare your two sheets together, you know if they correlate, like you know, you can't get any better than that as far as transparency goes.

Speaker 2: 1:05:55

Yeah, well, that's what happened on that project, like we'd done our walkthrough a week before and it was fine, yep. And then, yeah, that accident happened and it was quite like just going to the meeting to say, hey guys, we had an accident a couple of days ago. This door is now damaged, but you've actioned something. We've already submitted the paperwork for a service call and a replacement to our window company, and here's the tentative date that they're expecting to get back at you Like it just gives the client confidence, Of course yeah.

Speaker 2: 1:06:22

You're not trying to hide anything. Yep, You're onto it Exactly. Yeah, yeah, but yeah, all this stuff, like I really do hope there's a lot of well, no, it's not just a practice.

Speaker 1: 1:06:31

We've really strayed from conversations, haven't we? I can see how these podcasts you can really uh get wrapped up and caught up and stray the uh straight from the norm I mean you know yeah it's all valuable mate, but it is. It is of course, of course. It's fantastic.

Speaker 2: 1:06:45

I'm loving it a lot of the stuff we've talked about today is definitely applies across the board, like it doesn't matter whether you're a business owner, a contractor or an apprentice, so it's all valuable information yep, and not just construction.

Speaker 1: 1:06:57

You know it goes out to to all apprentices. You know whatever field you know, from hairdressing to bakery to. You know it goes out to all apprentices. You know whatever field you know, from hairdressing to bakery to. You know, whatever it is, you know like we're all in it together, so you know.

Speaker 2: 1:07:07

We'll just change tack for a minute, mate, because I know you're getting hot in here.

Speaker 1: 1:07:10

We'll start to wrap up soon. No, that's all right. No, I'm fine. Look, we've talked about all this, don't? I've come a long way.

Speaker 2: 1:07:16

Yeah, but no. Well, I just want to get onto some other topics because, like, can you tell us a little bit about your journey?

Speaker 1: 1:07:25

Because I know you've Well, how long have we got? Well, my journey, look, I have thought about this coming onto the podcast and the journey is quite long and whether it's long-winded or not, but it's an exciting, it's been a very exciting journey. You know, sitting here today, you know I would never have thought in a million years that I would be, you know at, you know what I'd say, this level, you know.

Speaker 2: 1:07:51

On Australia's number one construction.

Speaker 1: 1:07:52

podcast On Australia's number one construction podcast, you know, level up, yeah, yeah, yeah, hashtag, but it's, you know, like I said, I didn't, um, I didn't come in. I, you know I wasn't forced into construction, but I needed to be guided. You know, like I didn't do well at school, didn't want to listen, um, I, you know, genuinely didn't. You know, like I, in one ear and out the other and I was focused on other things, you know, and, and that wasn't education, you know, and you know. So you know, the story started early. I actually did want to tell a story today. This is your time, mate.

Speaker 2: 1:08:28

This is your time.

Speaker 1: 1:08:30

And it goes back. So this could have been. You know whether it was, you know the catalyst or whatever you're going to call it. You know, but there was something ingrained in my brain early on. You know it was in construction. But there was something ingrained in my brain early on. You know it was in construction and so I would have been six to eight years old, I reckon, and my grandparents, my great-grandmother, lived next door. So I grew up in Oyster Bay, which is in the Sunlight Shire in Sydney, and, yeah, my great-grandmother lived next door and she was getting onto an age where she needed to be looked after. So my grandparents, they built on top of her place. They moved from another suburb in the Southern Shire and they built on top and I found it fascinating.

Speaker 1: 1:09:12

I was just absolutely fascinated by the build and the construction and like I can remember you know a couple of things I can remember quite well were one was the ramp. You know they had this ramp and I can remember you know a couple of things I can remember quite well. One was the ramp. You know they had this ramp and I'm talking it was. There was no safety rails, it was a couple of stick timbers. The ramp would have been maybe 40, 50 metres long.

Speaker 1: 1:09:33

That shot from the front yard up to the subfloor of the new addition. You know, and you know at that age it was 100 metres long. You know what I mean. It was long and I used to climb up there after school and just you know, piss about up there. You know, like I just rummaged through all the construction I can remember holding silicon tubes, you know, and pushing rods in the silicon tubes and pushing the. It was an old silicon, you know, like a used one, you know, just stuff like that. I can remember doing that. So I found, you know, I found it interesting. It's bullshit, just an inquisitive child.

Speaker 1: 1:10:08

And even more, like it gets better. There was two the two carpenters there, and they're you know these fellas called Danny and Stuart, and I've told this story so many times. My and I've told this story so many times. My sisters are going to be watching this. He's brought up the Danny and Stuart story, but anyway, so I just found those guys, so I was just so captivated by what they did. I just love watching them with the nail bags on.

Speaker 1: 1:10:34

My mother bought me a little nail bag for me to go in there and just hang out with these guys. She used to make me a sandwich. She'd make me a sandwich. I'd say I want a sandwich, ham, cheese, tomato, butter on the outside, don't toast it. And I used to grab the sandwich. I'd run next door up the ramp and I'd put it in their Jaffa making when they were having lunch and I'd sit down with Danny and Stuart. How fucking annoying would I have been, you know, at that age. Um, anyway, so that was a memory. That was a memory. And then let's go, let's, let's go forward.

Speaker 2: 1:11:06

uh, eight, maybe eight years, but that's the passion we want in people these days. Yeah, like I want people to turn up to my job site now doing that yeah of course.

Speaker 1: 1:11:13

Of course you know if we go, if we go forward eight years and, um, you know, went through school, you know, and, and you know, didn't didn't get a very good education at all. I was put into a program, um, it was a um, carpentry bill, a carpentry, cabinet making and joinery course. Um, it was out of burwood so I'd travel out there. I was always late, I didn't find it. You know, I still wasn't at that stage where I was ready to learn, you know, or or get, get any form of education, and I used to. Yes, I attended this program out there. Unfortunately it was. The program would have 15 kids in it and the 14 of the 15 kids were all in the same basket as me. School didn't want them. So we went and did this program. So you can imagine, you know, the sort of distractions that were there. So we had to do some work experience and my mother ended up contacting my grandfather and saying you know like we need a building site for Sean to go out on and do a week's worth of work experience. So she got in contact with my grandfather, larry. He got in contact with a builder and it was the builder that built his house. I didn't know this at the time, so off I went to do work experience. I'm sure it would have been pulling teeth get me out of bed at seven o'clock, you know. Anyway, I rock up on this building site and this is Bill the builder, you know. Hey, bill, how are you going? These are my carpenters Cool, no worries. My carpenter's cool no worries. You know, at that age I would have been, I don't know, 16 or something like that, just kicking about on site.

Speaker 1: 1:12:45

You know, we did the morning, you know, the couple of hours in the morning, and we sat down for Smogo and we're sitting down there at Smogo and the two carpenters said to me they go, so your grandfather's Larry Hansby, yeah. And I said yeah, yeah, yeah, that's him. And they go. And they built on top of they built in Oyster Bay. And I was like yeah, yeah, I can't remember exactly how the conversation went, but they said you know, he built in Oyster Bay and they go, well, you live next door. And I was like yeah, and they said we remember you. And I'm like yeah, and they said we remember you. And I'm like, straight away, I just went, this is Danny, I'm getting goosebumps. This is Danny and Stuart, I didn't know, you know, like I had no idea, like I'd just forgotten over those years, and this was the two carpenters that you know I was so fascinated with back in the day.

Speaker 1: 1:13:36

So whether that had some form of impact, you know, in my push forward to construction, I really believe it did. You know, like that, those little key ingredients sort of make up where you um, where you're headed in life, you know, and so, and then, you know, just just moving forward from there, I, you know, continued the, the pursuit in construction and and, um, I didn't do it easy, I didn't have my um, I didn't have my car license until I, easy, I didn't have my car licence until I was 20. I didn't have my car licence until I moved to Canberra. So I moved to Canberra when I was 24, 25. I did my apprenticeship.

Speaker 1: 1:14:09

This is going to blow your mind and I'm not embarrassed to talk about it. It's a good story and it's something that people can possibly relate to and learn from. But you know, I used to catch a train. So I possibly relate to and learn from. But, um, you know, I used to catch a train, so I said I was living at cronella and I'd get on the train, the first train quarter past five, with my tools, that tool bag I was talking about earlier, that 800 tool bag, you know, with the, with all the makita gear in it this is that on shoulder had a level in my hand.

Speaker 2: 1:14:34

Um, it's good to talk about matt, because there's no excuses no, there's not.

Speaker 1: 1:14:37

And I'd get on the train every morning and it was always a run. I'd be running to that train, you know, and my boss would never, you know, he'd never let. He picked me up from wherever we were, usually Martin Place or you know somewhere around the eastern suburbs because we were working around there. But he was always big on you're not storing your tools in my ute. Like you're just not You're going to carry them, mate, in my ute. Like you're just not, you're gonna carry a mate. And I was like, yeah, okay, I did that for three years like loser alert, you know, get your license, mate, you know.

Speaker 2: 1:15:05

And I just why did you not get your license?

Speaker 1: 1:15:06

I don't know I, I don't know, I just I can't actually answer that question. You know, I was just this granola bum, you know, and it was, it was, it was something that you know I reflect back on and say why didn't I get my?

Speaker 2: 1:15:19

I feel like I didn't have the purpose. You were holding on to a story.

Speaker 1: 1:15:22

I didn't have the purpose, like I didn't felt I didn't have the purpose. You know I was confident. You know I was a confident kid and everything, but I just never felt I needed to. You know I didn't listen to people, dwayne. You know, like you know, I had all these people telling me. You know my father, you know you need to get these things.

Speaker 2: 1:15:41

I think it's really important to share these stories, mate, because there'll be so many people out there that just make excuses for everything. Like you didn't have a license. You had to carry all your shit to a train. Catch the train, get picked up by your boss.

Speaker 1: 1:15:52

Yep, it gets better and it gets a bit illegal. But I went like from there I did. You know, I did my three years apprenticeship. There was I did plumbing. That's a separate story. We could be talking forever. But I did learn from someone else in between that and I did plumbing. I did try plumbing out for a couple of years. It was a bathroom. An opportunity came up to take over a bathroom business. It was my father. You know, my father was a big influence and he was always, always. He was always trying to steer me in the right direction. You know like it was and I kept going down the. He'd say that path and I'd go that path. You know, um, and I, and I kicked myself.

Speaker 2: 1:16:26

You know I'm so is he a plumber my father.

Speaker 1: 1:16:29

No, no, no, he wasn't in the industry at all, you know, yeah, he's just a sportsman. You know, like he did, he worked for the paper back in the day. He was um, he was um he's gonna hate me for not remembering, but he was, he worked for the Daily Mirror. He said we'll just go with that, but we I was getting off topic there so, yeah, I am, yeah, so plumbing. That didn't work out.

Speaker 1: 1:16:52

Long story short, I moved on and ended up, yeah, I found a carpenter that you know was a great craftsman. You know a fellow called Cody Casley and he, you know, was a great craftsman. You know a fellow called Cody Casley and he, you know, still hold him in high regard. He still we still keep in touch now and then, you know, it's a long time between drinks, but he was a fantastic craftsman. He wasn't a great business owner, but he was a very, very good carpenter, extremely good carpenter, and he taught me so much. And you know, like, moving on from that, I had a partner at the time and her mother lived in Sutton, which is on the fringe of Canberra, on the fringe of ACT, and she owned a property out there. She owned a fucking donkey farm, a miniature donkey farm. Right, and it was. I told you. The story's good, but so I used to love going to Sutton and spending time on the farm.

Speaker 1: 1:17:45

I loved the rural lifestyle. You know when my family, like my sisters in particular, they always said, you know, you're always meant for the bush. You know like I enjoyed, you know, the beach life and I surfed as a young kid. You know like I loved all of that Cronulla lifestyle. But deep down, I think you know, my passion was, you know, in the scrub, you know like out in the paddocks, and so I ended up going to. So my partner at the time, her mother, she wanted to do some renos on her house, you know. So she wanted me to come up for a couple of weeks and I did go up for a couple of weeks and it ended up turning into about three or four months because I ended up networking with a couple of people. Um, I just, you know the story goes, I did need to pour some concrete around the garage and I needed a hand. I need someone to drop the concrete in.

Speaker 1: 1:18:32

While I floated, while I screwed it off, and um, and this fella rocked up and he was. You know, there's only's only about 100, 200 people in this town, you know there's not many. And I made the call, I made the initiative to call up the local store to ring and find a labourer or a handyman, you know. And this man rocked up and that was a big turning point in my life and I made that call, you know, to get a helping hand. And this fella ended up giving me work around Sutton and he said you know, do you want to do a deck here? I know someone that wants a bathroom done. There's a carpenter in town, there's a carpenter in Sutton. You know what I mean. Basically, and and I put my hand up I had no fucking idea what I was doing. I mean, I had an idea. I had a rough idea.

Speaker 1: 1:19:13

I hadn't finished my apprenticeship at this time and I didn't have a car license. So what I did? There was a paddock basher and my girlfriend taught me to drive up and down Reed Road it was called in Sutton, that was the road we lived in. Drive up and down there. I learnt how to drive. You know it was a manual. It was an old Brumby, one of those Subaru Brumbies paddock basher, mate. You know you had to fit your tools in the back of that. I didn't have many and anyway. So I learned how to drive and I just took off, I loaded my tools up and this fella Tim, you know, he loaded me up with work. He started throwing work at me, you know, and I loaded up and I just drove around. You know the area, the region. I never went into Canberra. You know I'm driving an unlicensed vehicle, without a license. Sorry, I'm driving. This can go out to the public.

Speaker 1: 1:20:09

Yeah it's all good, it's all good, anyway. So, but then, you know, things started to change and I started to evolve. I started to wake up as I was, you know, um, just gaining that experience. All the responsibility came with it. I'm like, what are you doing? You got to get your fucking carpenter's license and you got to get a car license.

Speaker 1: 1:20:27

If you want to do this, you know, like you've, you've, yeah, I'm 24 at this stage, you know, and I'm halfway through my fucking 20s mate, this is awesome because, with all the stuff we started about in this podcast, this is is fantastic, mate this is why, you know, like I really push for apprentices and I really want them to have a good education early on, you know, and things just evolved from there and once I got that car license and that carpenter's license, like that was a massive milestone for me. You know, like my family were just like, wow, sean's got his car license, you know, and then the carpenter's license on top of that was just, you know, like it was a big deal, you know, and now when I look back at it, you know, like it it was just it's it's the essentials in life. But you know, it was a big movement for me, you know, like it was a big change and it was the change that I needed to grow up and and so where did you go from there?

Speaker 1: 1:21:25

so I started working for. So this member I was talking we're talking before the podcast about, um, our, um, you know, our hobbies, etc. Under Land Rover. So this fella that rocked up, tim, as I was talking about, he, uh, he rocked up in a bus at old Land Rover Discovery. I ended up buying that, you know.

Speaker 1: 1:21:43

So I bought that vehicle, I got it registered and then I took off into town and, um, and started working for local builders, um, and then slowly, you know, just started connecting the dots, connecting with people, um, and listening to people, like I really did because I had no idea what I was doing in this big wide world, you know, and I was on my did because I had no idea what I was doing in this big wide world, you know, and I was on my own. It was the first time that I was not being cradled by my family. I wasn't being cradled by, you know, the, the bosses that I had back in Sydney. You know the ones that would drive me around, you know, with with, you know, like, yeah, with the patience that they had and I thank them very much for it because, you know, people were patient with me.

Speaker 1: 1:22:21

Maybe it was my personality, because I've always been a friendly, friendly person, you know, and I've always wanted to do well. I've just been, just was a bit um, just didn't have. I don't know about the energy, it's just the energy and the drive.

Speaker 1: 1:22:32

You know the, the um, so but you know that all changed when I, when I developed that um, you know that that responsibility, um, then I started to change and I started listening. I started listening to people. But you know that all changed then. When I developed that you know, that responsibility, then I started to change and I started listening to people. There were builders, you know, and I'd start looking up to people and go well, you know like, and people saw stuff in me you know like I talk about. You know there's a good family that I'm close to. Now I'm staying at.

Speaker 1: 1:22:57

You met Nathan last night. So he's from, he's got a good, a very broad background in construction and it all stems from his father, greg, and Greg, you know, he was awarded 45 years of the annual NBA dinner, you know, the other night, only last week, and I was fortunate enough to see him because he was just such a mentor of mine. He believed in me, like Greg believed in me. Greg's a craftsman. He's like you and I, craig Stewart, he's that sort of breed and he could see that I'd been taught by somebody who was a passionate carpenter because I'd loved it.

Speaker 2: 1:23:35

So we were talking about Craig Stewart last night. You've never met him in person. I've never met him personally.

Speaker 1: 1:23:39

Remember I was supposed to reach out to him last night. You've never met him in person. I've never met him personally. You reached out to him for me, remember? I was supposed to reach out to him last night.

Speaker 2: 1:23:42

It just didn't happen, but you reached out after hearing me talk about him on our podcast. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So he came about. Craig Stewart Big online buddies Mate.

Speaker 1: 1:23:50

I'm one of his biggest fangirls behind the screen, you know yeah.

Speaker 2: 1:23:56

Online buddy. He said buddy, but.

Speaker 1: 1:24:00

It's not like such, it's not.

Speaker 3: 1:24:02

Yeah, well look, yeah, no, he you know like the power of connecting with great people, the power of connection.

Speaker 1: 1:24:09

You know, like he, I follow him closely and to the point where we have conversations we just Just little conversations in text, you know, and he's always supporting what I do and I support what he does.

Speaker 2: 1:24:21

You know, um, he's, you know, 1500 kilometers away you know where, where to, from what you've just talked about to getting your builder's license so that came about just through carpentry growth.

Speaker 1: 1:24:33

So, like I said, I got my carpenter's license. I ended up finishing it here in that sorry here, but there in Canberra, and then it was. I think it was just through the growth of carpentry. I took on an apprentice you know back to a pup who I was talking about before he was my, he was my first apprentice and then he saw a lot of growth in the company, like he was a lot of help, you know, like he doesn't know it either. You know, like he's a very sort of you know he's that sort of, he's that nature, but he really helped a lot in the growth of the business. You know, by just being a support. He was the rock, he was the hard big rock, you know.

Speaker 1: 1:25:11

And as we grew, you know, the responsibility grew, the ambition grew and I wanted to start tackling projects, you know, on our own, doing the extension, reno. That required BAs, you know things like that, which required licensing. So I crunched out a builder's license. I ended up doing it through the Capital Training Institute. It was an express course. You had to have a minimum of seven years experience in the industry. So it was a fast track course. And now, looking back at it, I think I don't want to sound boastful here, but I had a pretty good understanding of the construction industry at this point. There were five of us in that course sorry, five of us out of 20, say that completed the course and we were all carpenters. Yeah, because, um, you know, they were carpenters then the majority of their time. Well, I'm very biased, I'm a very biased carpenter, but you know, and there's plenty in the field that you know like can, can, can, do it as well in custom homes.

Speaker 2: 1:26:11

I mean custom homes. Carpenters are on site. My custom house is glorified administration yeah, yeah, but, um, but yeah.

Speaker 1: 1:26:17

So I ended up up getting the. Once I got my builder's license, you know, I had a license to grow. That was it, you know. And then I started getting really involved with who I was, who the brand was I had a like, so it was Hardwick Carpentry.

Speaker 1: 1:26:34

Before you know, you sort of evolve and you have different names and my first name this is a laugh my first name was SH Carpentry and my sister she lives abroad, she lives in Czech Republic, and I don't know if it was by phone at this point or where she was, because she's been living abroad for a long time and here and there. But she did say to me one day she said don't you reckon it sounds like shithouse carpentry Just ruined it, you know. So I had to change my name there. So I rebranded to Hardwick Carpentry and that worked throughout the period of doing carpentry work, but it only got me so far, you know. And then branded to Hardwick Projects and that's when I started to really embrace Hardwick's as a brand, you know. And in the last couple of years, you know, I've really taken that on and been very aware of what I'm putting.

Speaker 2: 1:27:26

Your identity.

Speaker 1: 1:27:27

My identity. That's right, you know, and I've, since, you know, been going through some business coaching with a good friend. I mean back to the Spencers. You know, like Greg I was talking about Nathan he's always been a support, and then now his brother, mick, is my business coach you know, so that family you know like has been great support.

Speaker 1: 1:27:50

But he's really, you know, put, you know this. You know just this distilled in me. You know, like you've got a brand, this is your brand and you need to. You know, like you in me, you know, like that you've you've got a brand, this is your brand and you need to.

Speaker 2: 1:28:03

You know, like you gotta make a personal connection. It can't be about just being a builder that's right.

Speaker 1: 1:28:07

Yeah, what's um, what's some of the biggest challenges you've had in being in starting your own business um, look, I think, like always, like staffing, like is is one you know, like there was at one point there I did have, I think, um, he had five or six carpenters, you know, and, um, although we were a good family of carpenters, you know like it was sometimes, you know, hard to to manage and and I was spending, um, you know this is probably one of my greatest challenges is being able to remove myself from from carpentry, you know, for here.

Speaker 2: 1:28:41

Yeah, you know I'm almost getting a little bit, yeah I think it's a challenge with any trade like yeah, I love carpentry, but I don't get to do it anymore.

Speaker 1: 1:28:50

You know I when I say I don't get to do it anymore, there's, there's opportunities, but I, just you, you fall behind too quickly if you, if you jump on the tools because, for um, whether I'm a simple-minded creature or not, if I'm hanging a door, I'm hanging a door. I'm not worried about the contracts administration that's getting left behind over here, or just the business. Let's just call it the business.

Speaker 2: 1:29:14

I think it's really good that you point that out, because it's generally staff or people don't know their numbers, they're not making money, but it actually is a big challenge.

Speaker 1: 1:29:24

For me it was the step back, you know, and I spent years, years and years being that hybrid version of a builder. You know that would be mate. I'd be chasing me tail because I was spending way too much time on the tools and trying to. And when I'm on the tools, you know it's. I'm on the tools, you know it's, it's, it's. I'm calling the shots, I'm running the crew, I'm loving it. You know I'm fucking. You know when you're running. You're running when we're talking about slowing down. But you know, like you, when you're in that mindset of onsite and everyone's just cracking away and it's a good's your target.

Speaker 2: 1:30:03

Let's go and know what you've got done, where it's. I miss that, you know like I've got.

Speaker 1: 1:30:08

I've still, you know, like it's. It's my. The screen, the home screen on my phone, is a project that I did um back for greg spencer and that would have been five, six years ago and it was just of the framework and I used to. I used to take that much pride I'd wait until everybody went from site so I'd be the last one there, just so I could walk around and clean the building site.

Speaker 1: 1:30:32

I had an obsession with, with, with, cleaning, but you know, cleaning the building site and then just putting, you putting you you know, resting your arm on a noggin and just taking it all in before it gets sheeted because when you get, when it gets sheeted, it transforms. You know, and and you know I hate the shading. I like seeing all the camaraderie work, but you know like and just take that moment to, to take it all in. I don't really get that anymore you know that's. That's one thing that I, you know I found challenging to, and I've only moved away from that, you know, over the last sort of 18 months.

Speaker 2: 1:31:04

Well, um we'll start to wrap it up, mate, because it's getting to about 35 degrees outside this year, let alone what it is in here but um, yep, we're gonna have to have you back for round two, mate, because we haven't really touched. There's a lot of other stuff, like there's plenty to crack out. Before we wrap it up, can we just try and keep it short. Like I want to talk about your routine, like you look, because routine's huge.

Speaker 1: 1:31:25

I talk about all the time on it.

Speaker 2: 1:31:26

Routine is everything run us through as quick as you can just a day yeah, just for the day yeah.

Speaker 1: 1:31:31

So I mean, the daily routine is, you know, up early. It's generally, you know, phone going off at 4, 30, not know, not too far after that getting up, and it's usually, you know I've got my partner. She's pregnant at the moment, so yeah, she's. You're either getting up or you're getting out, that's all. You're getting back to bed or you're getting up, but you know. So yeah, very early. You know I do like to have at least a couple of hours in the morning. You know I enjoy that time.

Speaker 1: 1:32:02

I think there's a lot to be said about a slow morning. Now, what I call a slow morning is getting up, you know, open the laptop, sort of refreshing yourself on the day, before catching up on emails. You know that's a good time to plug into your social media, which I've started doing on the computer, so it's not on the phone. So you open up the browsers on the computer, you can respond to your comments, all that sort of stuff. Taking the time in the morning to do that when you, when your brain's fresh, um, and then once I'm out the door, you know like it's, it's construction all day. So you know it's it's.

Speaker 1: 1:32:31

We've got an office in fish week, you know. So we uh got breakfast ice baths, yeah. So breakfast is um, breakfast is, it depends. I do enjoy the gym, I enjoy muscle growth, I enjoy all the principles about it, I enjoy the discipline to the gym and so, yeah, my diet it all sort of integrates, doesn't it? Because there's no point in trying to grow or to have that discipline reaction without something else. You know that sort of feeds, that beast, you know, and that's food, you know. So diet's a big thing. And you know my breakfast, you know. At the moment, you know I'm sort of into a phase, we're heading into that summer phase, and trying to look sharp is always, you know, I'm conscious of that. I think everybody should be.

Speaker 2: 1:33:21

You're looking pretty sharp, mate Presentation's, everything. I'm pretty envious. I need to fucking start working out.

Speaker 1: 1:33:26

Stop it. You might get that Tinder date, but you know like so at the moment I'm into the egg whites. I have six egg whites and one whole egg and that's about it. You know, like it's pretty bare's pretty bare a bit of salt and pepper and a bit of parsley. But I have a routine where my meals are all calculated for the week. So Sunday afternoon it's a level-up podcast, Sunday planning, and I do meal prep. So Isabel and I she helps me do the meal prep. When I say it, it's just a good exercise to do together. She's a hairdresser, she works a Saturday, so we have Sunday. That's pretty much the only day, so we like to spend time with each other. Like I said, we're about to have our first child together. Congratulations, Mate. I'm just yeah, yeah, don't get me started on it because, I'll cry.

Speaker 1: 1:34:15

I'm telling you I'm not starting on it because I'll cry, but yeah, we are so excited We've just got into that phase of enjoying it. But yeah, so having that meal prep, it's all calculated, all the macros, I've got them all in line. So you know it's the Monday, tuesday, wednesday and I don't have to think that's the big thing. I don't have to think about food during the week because I've done it all. On Sunday I applied three hours to thinking about the food. I don't have to apply any brain power to that, you're getting up.

Speaker 2: 1:34:40

You're smashing it out early. I personally believe the time. If you can get an hour in the morning, you'll get more work done than you'll get in seven hours during the day 100%.

Speaker 1: 1:34:50

Those hours are valuable and I think it's valuable because everybody's dormant, Whether they're up as well they're in. You know, and I try and promote that to everybody, Get up and have those hours in the morning to yourself, you know, because the rest of the day until you go to bed. Pretty much it's just on, you know Then we're off to work.

Speaker 1: 1:35:11

So you're still spending a bit of time on site On the tools. You know it's very minimal. You know I did a day on site. It was a couple of weeks ago. I smacked my head and sort of gave it up but no, it was on a brace um. But no, I, you know, like I've got a very um, I've got a extremely um, you know, a good team um.

Speaker 1: 1:35:33

So you know, I don't, I don't have that urge to get out there. I think that was a problem I had before was just the control but but yeah, so I'm generally, you know, just floating about doing the, doing the builder run mate. You know you're at the office one minute you're out on site, the next you're out seeing suppliers. I've really been trying to to network a lot more at the moment. So you know I'm really trying. You know like I'm doing well at that. You know like talking to a lot of people, a lot of industry bodies as well, yeah, so you know, I think if you do your eight hours a day, I still believe in that. You know eight hours, nine hours of work, if you do that five days a week, you've done your week right. I'm very much on that and that's routine, you know. And then after work it's a gym session. So once again, it's a calculated gym session for each group of muscle group.

Speaker 2: 1:36:23

I hear you do it in the afternoons, mate, I've got it all. I can't do extra in the afternoon If I don't do it in the morning, mate I can't not do it.

Speaker 1: 1:36:30

I have to do that every day. I mean I spend 30 hours a week sitting in a chair like in the office. I've got myself our office manager. She's part-time, she works, you know, minimum sort of 24 hours a week, and then we've got an estimator as well. So between us, you know like there's a lot of demand in the administration side of a building business. You know that. You know I was having a chat with Camille up there earlier and I'm just in awe that she can, you know she can look after all that administration on her own. You know it's it's amazing.

Speaker 2: 1:37:04

She's a machine, mate. She's a machine. She keeps the show running.

Speaker 1: 1:37:08

So, but you know, like it's, it's, I think, I think, routine and structure at. You know, a lot of this came about after I was saying before, you know, when I had my back surgery and I decided to, you know not. You know, when I had my back surgery and I decided to, you know, not. You know, not give up drinking, but you know I don't really drink anymore, trying to just have a clearer mind and all of that, you know, like all of that mobility that I lost during that process of having um surgery, you know, I, um, I was told I need to have a core and a bum, you know, and I took it to the next level let's just say that but I wouldn't have it any other way.

Speaker 1: 1:37:43

I won't change. You know, I really won't change. I mean the exercises. You know. Another thing, big thing on the morning routine is the first thing I do is exercise because I've got um, an extreme case of arthritis in my spine. So I wake up and I'm like a fucking surfboard, you know yeah so I've got to, um, I've got to unwind myself in the morning, but um, but yeah look I you know routine, routines, everything just for your mind, body and soul.

Speaker 2: 1:38:05

I really believe in it, you know well. Uh, oh, mate, I'm, I'm completely on board with the yeah and it's becoming, but people are waking up to that.

Speaker 1: 1:38:12

You know there's a lot of, you know a lot of therapies out there now that people are. You know, I think consistency, though, like people just have to have the consistency COVID's been the best thing for the world, mate.

Speaker 2: 1:38:21

It's opened people's eyes up to what's really going on.

Speaker 1: 1:38:23

Oh look, there's a lot of advantages and disadvantages to that, Dwayne, but that's another conversation. We'll come back around to that.

Speaker 2: 1:38:29

But, mate, well, I really appreciate you coming up here. It's been an absolute pleasure having you. I really appreciate it I feel this podcast just dropping bombs, mate, like this is a really good moment.

Speaker 1: 1:38:39

I really appreciate it. Like I said, I've been listening to you for a long time. I believe in this movement of what you're trying to recreate.

Speaker 2: 1:38:48

So what's level up mean to you, mate?

Speaker 1: 1:38:50

Level up means future to me. You know, creating a better future. You know that's exactly what we're here to do on planet earth. You know, whether you're a fucking spider or you're a human, you're here to survive and the way to survive is, you know, all about making sure that that future is is a better environment for the day before. You know, and that's exactly what you are doing, you know, in this movement, in construction.

Speaker 1: 1:39:12

You know a way to uh wrap it up, mate it really it really is, and um, and I couldn't yeah, I can't thank you enough for being here. You know I came on this podcast. I've been a ball of nerves, mate. But, you know, I can say, you know, you create a very comfortable environment for us and I'm going to say on us on behalf of everybody.

Speaker 1: 1:39:32

You know we can listen, we can absorb information from you, Like what you say is. You know, I apply in my day, and I think there's a lot to be said about that. So don't stop what you're doing, mate, because I appreciate it, mate. Yeah, do not stop what you're doing. You know, give up dp constructions before you give up this okay, yeah, and if you want to have me, on again. I'd love coming up to queensland mate, so yeah I might have a baby with me next time.

Speaker 1: 1:39:59

Stay tuned, we've got, I know the missus know she wanted to come up and be here but she had to work. So you know she's like I said, she's a great supporter, she's a great supporter of me and yeah, so next time on the podcast she'll have the time, you know, to come up.

Speaker 2: 1:40:14

We'll definitely be the last time, mate, that's for sure.

Speaker 1: 1:40:17

Please do yeah.

Speaker 2: 1:40:18

Guys, look as always. Really appreciate you listening. Please subscribe, share with your friends. We want to help continuing to make this Australia's number one construction podcast. But the whole purpose, as you just heard from Sean this podcast is all about building and creating a new building industry so that everyone in it can thrive. So continue to help us do that and look forward to seeing you on the next one, Are you?

Speaker 1: 1:40:42

thrive. So continue to help us do that and look forward to seeing you on the next one. Are you ready to build smarter, live better and enjoy life? Then head over to live like buildcom forward.

Speaker 2: 1:40:46

Slash, elevate to get started everything discussed during the level up podcast with me, duane pierce, is based solely on my own personal experiences and those experiences of my guests. The information, opinions and recommendations presented in this podcast are for general information only, and any reliance on the information provided in this podcast is done at your own risk. We recommend that you obtain your own professional advice in respect to the topics discussed during this podcast.