Start Acting and Thinking as Though You've Already Achieved It and The MONEY Will Come.

#130 A dynamic conversation with Lockie, a 25-year-old supervisor in the construction industry, unfolds rich insights into career growth, accountability, and personal development. His journey from apprentice to supervisor is marked by passion, dedication, and valuable life lessons.

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Chapters

• 0:00 Introduction to the Episode
• 2:37 The Drive to Become a Leader in Construction
• 14:09 Shaping Skills and Training Your Mind
• 37:04 Meet Lockie: A Young Supervisor’s Journey
• 51:14 Overcoming Challenges and Embracing Responsibility
• 1:04:39 Importance of Continuous Learning in Construction
• 1:36:09 Navigating Industry Standards and Practices
• 1:46:58 The Future of Building: Accountability & Quality
• 2:00:58 Final Thoughts: Building Success Through Dedication

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:00

I think, a big thing I got taught in sport as well. It was like if you want to be something, so say you want to be a professional footy player or a basketball player or a tennis player, whatever it is, you have to act like that, even if you're not there yet. You have to start training your brain and your mind and then also working on your skill set to get there. So I think I've just carried that into construction, which G'day guys.

Speaker 2: 0:31

Welcome back to another episode of Level Up. We are in for an absolute cracker today. I've got a great guest with us today. He's one of the only well, one of a handful of guys that have actually reached out to me on Instagram and is now sitting in the seat because he wants to have a chat and learn and progress, because he loves the building industry and he wants to eventually become a builder. So, bloody man Mountain, big warm welcome to Lockie. How are you, mate? Good Dwayne, thanks for having me on.

Speaker 2: 0:56

What are you 6'8"?

Speaker 1: 0:57

6'8".

Speaker 2: 0:58

6'8", not 6'9", holy shit, maybe 6'9 in boots, but you make me feel like a bloody kindergarten kid sitting here beside you. But um, let's get serious. So you reached out to me on instagram. You uh been following the podcast and my socials for a long time and wanted to come and have a chat about just the building industry and what you do. So you've been a chippy and you're actually you're 25 years old and you're now a supervisor. So, yeah, kicking goals that's it.

Speaker 1: 1:22

Thanks, mate. Just like I told we were talking about before, I drive around supervising now going from site to site, and I got sick of listening to Spotify and circling through my different music tastes. What's?

Speaker 2: 1:35

the music. What's the tunes you listen?

Speaker 1: 1:36

to. Oh, it goes from country rock and roll. A little bit of new stuff as well, I'm all over the place. I'm a little bit of new stuff as well, I'm all over the place. I'm one of those guys that doesn't have any spotify playlist. It's all just in like songs and you hit shuffle. But um yeah, so end up. Just getting onto the level up podcast, I think I followed your construction company on instagram first and then saw all the stories you posted and, um yeah, jumped on the podcast and now every I'm pretty sure I've caught up to almost every episode. Every tuesday, when a new one comes out, it's the first thing on the playlist.

Speaker 2: 2:05

Cheers, mate, appreciate the support. So before you start asking some questions, tell us a little bit about your journey, because 25 is quite young to be a supervisor. So how have you ended up where you are?

Speaker 1: 2:19

I was one of those guys that just knew they were going to be a chippy from day one. It sort of all happened by chance. I played a lot of like my initial goal in life was probably guessing by the height was to play basketball. So I played a lot of that growing up and when I was finishing grade 12, I wanted to go over to the States and play college basketball there. So yeah, I was sort of on track to do all that, finished grade 12, was looking to go over to the States, and then a few things happened around that where I got some different offers and was happy with some, wasn't happy with others, but I still had a place at uni here in Brisbane. So you know, that was sort of a bit of a backup plan.

Speaker 1: 2:59

But one of my best mates from school he was always going to be a chippy, his dad was a builder. That was him lined up and, um, they were doing like a sandwich panel, um carport, and they needed a hand, an extra guy, and he's like, lucky, do you want to come down and give us a hand? I was like, oh sure, why not? I'll come down. Sounds like a pretty good deal. Get paid, whatever it is for a day, a bit of spending money and, um, that day sort of turned into a week with him and his boss, like we just all sort of worked well together. And then his boss had a mate who was looking for an apprentice, and just timing wise sort of worked out well for me.

Speaker 1: 3:33

I was actually going to go. I went to uni for one day and I remember it was like an induction day went to uni for one day and about halfway through that day I called dad and I was like dad I can't remember the exact words I used, but they're talking to me like a kid, like I'm still at school, like this sucks, like you know I don't want to be here, and dad, you know, forget what he said, but it was pretty much like all right, we'll pull your finger out and go get a job then, or you know work it out, so that all happened start and then I went for the interview with my friend's boss's mate started on with them fresh out of school the next year and the plan was always to sort of go and play college basketball.

Speaker 1: 4:11

But as soon as I started working as a chippy I was like I love this and I just wanted to progress my career as much as I could. And then from there I did about. I did two years with the first guy I worked for.

Speaker 1: 4:24

What sort of work were you doing? We were doing sort of. It was a mixture of like new builds and renovations. Didn't get a lot of experience but like enough, but also got some experience with pools and landscaping. So it was more of a builder apprenticeship, which I enjoyed. It was nice. But I really wanted to move into like pure carpentry and framing. But about halfway through that I got an opportunity to start training with like the development bullets team. So I was working like half a day at work or training in the morning, then working half a day in the afternoon until eventually I was like you know, I've got to really give basketball a crack.

Speaker 1: 5:04

So I put my apprenticeship on hold after nearly two years, went and did that, played basketball for a while, had a few injuries. I'm definitely not one of those guys that say if it was one knee I would have been there. That's not me. But I gave it my best crack and I got to live out that dream for a little bit.

Speaker 1: 5:21

And then I did sort of six months through another friend who was doing his apprenticeship six months with them doing like one really big, high-end build actually won like a HIA award for best new build, maybe over three million or just under three million or something like that, do that for six months. But they didn't have a job for me as an apprentice, but one of his mates had had an opening for for an apprenticeship, which I was really lucky to get, I think, because there's not many guys that want to take on, you know, second, third, third year apprentices, um, yeah. So I jumped on with them and they're the pure subcontractor chippies. So finished my apprenticeship off, did another two years with him as a carpenter, um, and then pretty much transitioned from that when he retired now into my supervising role.

Speaker 2: 6:10

And here I am yeah, so that you were. So the company you're working for now was doing all their own carpentry work and and stuff. Yeah, they are, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1: 6:19

So it's pretty big um call, mate, to throw you in the deep end and be a supervisor yeah, well, I think I was saying before, like the, the boss that I'm working for now, his dad was who I finished my apprenticeship for, so we had a bit of a good relationship where we were doing the subcontractor carpentry work for, for who I'm working for now. Um, so developed a relationship, a bit of trust that way and you know, we got along really well and I think it was just a good progression for him to have someone he trusted and his old man had trusted for so long as a carpenter. Yeah, and I was keen, I really wanted to do it, I wanted to progress and evolve my career.

Speaker 2: 6:59

So what was the process there? Was it like, hey, I'm an Australian in the deep end?

Speaker 1: 7:11

or was it? Hey, I'm in australia in the deep end, or was it? Hey, come with me, I'll teach you how to do things like? Um, no, he's been really good, definitely. Uh, come with me, I'll show you how to do it. Um, like I say, the first six months, you know, was a massive eye opener, super humbling I thought I was. You know, I knew I knew my job as a carpenter and, within my scope of works, was quite okay with that. But all the other stuff you know, footings and all the builder side of the job was completely way out of my reach at the time. But yeah, my boss has been great in training me up and taking me through the process and explaining things and showing me and letting me fail a little bit, but not too much that it's too bad. But I've been learning some good lessons and yeah it's been really good development for me.

Speaker 2: 7:51

So do you do any extra additional learning? Like, do you go to seminars? Are you like you're getting on board, like doing industry seminars, personal development, like what are you doing to sort of stay ahead of the game?

Speaker 1: 8:02

yeah, I haven't yet, but this year that's some of my goals definitely just reach out. And that's probably why I reached out to you. You know that was the start for me, like I'd listen to the podcast and been doing a little bit extra reading on different, different books and stuff like that, looking online as much as I can. But yeah, this year I want to sort of start to take the next steps and go to some seminars and get involved with some groups and try and just bounce ideas off people yeah because that's how I learned really it's like talking to people and made this industry.

Speaker 2: 8:32

I don't think you ever stop learning. Like every single day is a school day, yeah, yeah, I've said it before on the podcast, like anyone that thinks they know everything is kidding themselves. Like they're all, they're stuck in some old-fashioned ways and then they're not improving the buildings that they're building. But, like there's um, like even just now, like we've just booked it this week, uh, we're taking most of our team to a um, an upcoming seminar, because there's a massive, big change to the building code that's coming in on the 1st of may. Again, yeah, so just trying to keep everyone up to date with what's going on. But how, like, how's your current employer deal with those types of things? Because, like, even even last year, there was big changes to the building code. So how are you keeping up to date with those we um?

Speaker 1: 9:14

we talk myself and my boss talk to his certifier pretty regularly. Um, uh, we try and stay, you know, on top of it, especially when the livable housing stuff came through and all that. It was a massive adjustment period for my boss currently because he's been doing things for a way for so long, and then it was all sort of new to me, which was probably a good thing because I was able to see it from a different perspective. But we sort of work together and always try and stay on top of what's coming up and any emails that come through from the QVCC or master builders. We try and stay on top of what's coming up and any emails that come through from the QVCC or master builders. Like, we try and stay on top of that. I actually saw today we've got an email from one of our office ladies about a seminar that she's sending my boss and I to a bit later in the year. So it'll be the same one, mate.

Speaker 1: 9:57

Yeah, about a month's time yeah, I think it's that one.

Speaker 2: 9:59

Yeah, um, so I'll probably see you there, but, um, oh, I think it's really important. You can't just go to work every day and keep doing the same thing. I've spoken about it a few times on the podcast. Probably one of the biggest eye-openers for me was not. Well, it was a while when I was transitioning from being a subcontract carpenter to a builder, I started going to seminars and I'd never been to a timber queensland seminar and so I went along. Um, it was quite expensive, I think back at the time, like 380 bucks or something. Um, and so if you signed up and became a member, you got a discount. So we did that and I walked in the room and I sat there and like, at the end of it, they still use my. At the end of the day, they ask for feedback and on my feedback form I wrote that every single builder and engineer should be made to attend this course, and but they still I get all the emails now like that is still on the bottom of all their new seminars like that feedback that I gave them Because I sat in that seminar and, like I was, I believe I was a great chippy like we.

Speaker 2: 11:07

We never got frames knocked back. We, like we always passed inspections. And yeah, yeah, I'm sitting in this fucking seminar and like my eyes are just growing because I'm looking at this screen and, like everything, they're telling me a lot shit, I've never done that, I've never been told to do that. I didn't know you had to do that. That's different to what I do. Yeah, um, and that's why I wrote that that feedback because, like, even that week we'd had a frame inspection and it had been passed and after being in the seminar, I was like these jobs that I'm doing shouldn't be getting passed because I'm doing shit wrong. Yeah, and well, it wasn't. Well, it was wrong, but I'd never. I was just doing shit the way that I've been taught my apprenticeship, and then I was doing shit the way that when I started contracting and my boss had told me to do so.

Speaker 1: 11:52

I think it's really it's something our industry needs to take a lot more seriously, like people need to continually like the sooner they hurry up and bring cbd points in yeah, everybody in their building industry, the better what I found was crazy as a chippy is you know about how you now have to tape the windows and flash the windows and all that sort of stuff when we found out about that on the ground level. You know, like from our inspectors and certifiers, and you need to start taping windows, like you can't just run around the house and you know, cut out the square and throw the paper in the bin. You got to actually do this now with the with the tape. It was amazing once we started doing it, watching like new homes in the street or just you know, viewing how many people were or were not doing it, and then going back and having those like a beer with your mates who are chippies and going, are you boys doing this? And they're like, nah, what are you talking about? Like it was crazy how long it took for people to catch on.

Speaker 1: 12:45

And still now I drive around the new estates we're in, I see guys, the apprentices running around cutting the square windows out, not taping windows. I'm like how is this not just a standard in the industry? Well, it is a standard in the industry. Why is not everyone up to speed with it? Why don't they do it? Why?

Speaker 2: 13:03

is not everyone up to speed with it, and why don't they do it Everyone? I guess people don't see the value in it and I think the main reason it is as bad as it is is because there's no accountability, like there's very well, I don't know. I shouldn't speak for everyone, I guess, but like I know a lot of certifiers, engineers, that like do lots of work and quite often don't even get out of their car to do an inspection Like we'll send a few photos of. Do the drive-by on the street, have a look? Yeah, looks all right. I've got mate builders that I argue with because they're like, oh fuck, mate, my certifier doesn't even get out of the car, he just pulls out the front, gives me a certificate. I'm like, well, you're sort of spruiking about it, but really that's shit. You need to take ownership and step up and actually make sure you're delivering. What you should be delivering Doesn't help anyone.

Speaker 2: 13:55

No, it just makes the whole industry get a worse name than what it's already got. I'm really excited, mate, to see someone like you're 25 years old. I think the industry's like this year actually 2025, like I honestly feel like, like I know my training business, live, life Build is just exploding. But I also feel like the industry like last year it started to happen, and I just feel like we're about to just to just have this massive change like there's and probably got a lot to do with social media like there's a lot of people now starting to talk about better building practices, healthy homes, yeah, um, I feel like there is people in the industry, like some of the bodies in that now, that are really pushing these, like people are aware of the changes. And I think the other really big, important thing is there's a lot of homeowners now, I think, that are more on top of this than trades and builders, and so you've got homeowners now holding trades and builders a bit more accountable.

Speaker 1: 14:58

Absolutely. I've noticed a massive increase in the amount of private building inspections we get before we hand a house over. So it's part of my job to hand the house over to the client and also liaise between the inspector, the client and myself right at that end, and it's becoming more and more popular that they're switched on know, know the process, or at least a little bit about what should be happening, how does that work?

Speaker 2: 15:21

I've never had that done and I see I watch these. Uh, who's a guy on instagram? The?

Speaker 1: 15:26

buddy the tiktok inspector, oh man non-compliant.

Speaker 2: 15:29

I would. I've. I've reached out like I want him on the podcast. I want to have a chat to him and look, I'd love him to come to my jobs and just see if there's anything that we can improve on.

Speaker 1: 15:37

But man, he's hard. I reckon he's hiding from all the people he's exposing. No, I like him's.

Speaker 2: 15:44

I like him, I think like fair enough If you've done shit wrong, like.

Speaker 1: 15:47

There's nothing. I mean he's there, he shows, he pulls the extract out of the NCC of what's wrong, like it's all you know legitimate what he's doing. But yeah, no, it's.

Speaker 2: 15:58

So how does it work? Like so what's? I would assume that that's something that possibly has to get written into the contract, or it's not just something that you get to the end of the job and the client's like, hey, I'm getting this private inspection done.

Speaker 1: 16:10

From what I see, that's sort of the administration side that I don't really see. But from the way we sort of run it or it has run for the past few that we've handed over is that the client literally just engages the private inspector, I the private inspector, and they'll be like, hey, we've got this inspection coming up and then the office sort of organizes that the inspector goes and does it. We get the full report and that gets handed to me with all the different things in there, and then I work through that with the subcontractors to either rectify or to discuss with the client what's going on or why things are like that. And, um, yeah, normally it goes pretty smoothly and it's, yeah, it's so what's some of the things they're picking on?

Speaker 1: 16:52

a lot of. It's really it's just a lot of paint defects, um, just little things here and there um paint defects. There might be, um a scratch in the glass or something like that on a window. Little things that you really have to look for, and that's what they're paid to do. They really go through the house with a fine-tooth comb Not that they shouldn't do that or we shouldn't do that. It's just they're looking really hard for things that are obviously regular ticketed items.

Speaker 2: 17:20

Yeah, I think it's a good thing. I think our industry, personally, I believe our industry, every home should have more compulsory inspections, like the I don't know, like I know you get the frame, like you get your footing inspection, you get your slab inspection, you get your frame inspection, those types of things. But like I personally believe there should be a inspection done at, let's say, the building wraps on and the windows are in. Yeah, to make, because for me and look, I never like if you had asked me this four or five years ago, I would have told you a completely different story. But knowing what I know now, like that that's the most important part of the bill. Like getting that envelope right. I was, I was taught through my time and um by lots of builders that like the cladding or the brickwork or like that was your weather defense, yeah, but ultimately it's. It's not like your building wrap needs to be your, your watertight layer or your airtight layer, and really the cladding's a bit of a bonus so, yeah, that's the oldest trick in the book, isn't it?

Speaker 1: 18:27

get the inspection after the, after the paper and the windows are in to, to try and uh, not get done for that sort of stuff oh no, we still get your engineers inspection, yeah, but I think that's a really crucial element that gets missed.

Speaker 2: 18:41

Um, it shits me, mate, when you drive around like you see people have thrown the paper on and the shit flapping in the breeze, or the paper only lines up with the tops of the windows and you got the top three or four hundred mil of the frame with nothing on it or it's um yeah, I think there definitely needs to be more inspections around.

Speaker 1: 18:58

Yeah, building wraps, window installations and instillate installation of insulation yeah, 100 I've learned so much just from listening to the podcast about, like, healthy homes and all that sort of stuff, and it's crazy to hear the different levels and how far you can really go with it to improve the quality of home that you're building. But, like you say, you drive around some of these new estates and you see not just new estates could be. You know renovations and all that sort of stuff as well, but drive around you see the poor quality of installation, you know, and it's just like what are you doing? Yeah, it's not helping anyone. Yeah, no one's getting what they're paying for. How can you? Or even like, the big thing for me is like how can you walk away from that? As a chippy, like I held my head pretty high about everything I did. I wanted to be proud of it. When I walked away and you see the standard of some things and it's like, wow, that's pretty average so how have you got to where you are, mate?

Speaker 2: 19:54

because, like, I've only like, literally, we've only met whatever 40 minutes ago, an hour ago. Uh, we've had a couple of little chats on instagram. Yeah, like, you seem like you're pretty level-headed, you know quality, like even just the way you're answering what we're talking about.

Speaker 1: 20:07

Most 25 year old superwars wouldn't have a clue I'd try really hard basically if I and I'd take it pretty personally how I do my job um, always have maybe that comes from sport right, always wanting to get to the next level and trying to chase that dream down, I guess. And then that competitive nature has always been in me. I've always been like that, so I guess that translated directly into building and construction and being carpenter, like as an apprentice. I wanted to be a tradesman, so I would do stuff that would make me, you know, become a better tradesman. We'll get Like what give us some examples.

Speaker 1: 20:45

Oh, just, you know, never stand around being on your phone, always working hard. I always wanted to. If my boss was like do you want to do this? Yeah, I want to do this, even if I didn't know how to do it. If I didn't know how to nail something or show me how to do it, don't do it for me, teach me how to do it.

Speaker 1: 21:02

That was, I guess, always the way I was, because I wanted to actually do it and that's just sort of carried through. That's how I do most things, I guess. And same with supervising. You know it was humbling being back at the start. It felt like I was at ground zero, day one, just started my apprenticeship and building again, which is ridiculous because I've been around it for long enough now. But it was like all right, let's knuckle down, let's do it. So, big hours researching, looking things up. That's why I messaged you, like you know, here you talk about, told your supervisor all the time what does he do? That's good, because I'm going to try and do that because it sounds like it works for him.

Speaker 2: 21:37

it depends on the day mate.

Speaker 2: 21:38

Today todd's been getting a lot of whinged out, a lot but um, but uh, yeah, so just just go chase it down, go get it if you want it, go go work for it and do it, you know you're, like you did some part of your answer just saying is what I would have said to you, like I think part of the reason why todd is such a good supervisor for me is because he he treats my business like his business, yeah, like he takes it very personally and, I think, across the board, like it doesn't matter, like I.

Speaker 2: 23:04

My opinion is that, and I think you and I are probably quite similar Um, like any anyone that I've ever worked for, like I've treated their business like mine.

Speaker 2: 23:14

Yeah, I want people like, cause I I know how I would feel if it was my business and someone fucked something up or didn't do something right, or, um, the house was sold and five years down the track, someone found something that wasn't right. Like, so I think anybody, anybody at a supervision level, yeah, you've got to treat it like it's your business. But even at a carpenter, like an apprentice level or whatever, I believe that's one of the easiest ways to progress through life. If you put as much effort into a business as if you would if it was your own, your employer is going to see that and you will constantly keep growing. Yeah, if you're just turning up every day and just doing the same shit, following the same rules or guidelines that you know you have to do every day, you're never going to fucking progress, exactly like you've got to keep improving yeah, I think, a big thing I got taught in sport as well.

Speaker 1: 24:12

It was like if you want to be something, so say you want to be a professional footy player or a basketball player or a tennis player, whatever it is, you have to act like that, even if you're not there yet. You have to start training your brain and your mind and then also working on your skill set to get there. So, your brain and your mind and then also working on your skill set to get there, you know. And so I think I've just carried that into construction, which is what I was saying before. Like when I was an apprentice, I wanted to be a tradesman, chippy. So, all right, let's act like a tradesman.

Speaker 1: 24:39

What would a tradesman do? How would he? He would go and pick up the plans and read what side sides the door is. He wouldn't stand there and wait for someone to come show him, you know, or, if you don't know, ask and same thing. Now, that's what I try and do now, like my boss, in my opinion, is great builder. So what does he do? Well, he does this, this and this. So I go and try and do that and that's I don't think people understand the power of you.

Speaker 2: 25:01

You need to act like you want to become. Yeah, like if you huge because other it, it doesn't just happen like. You have to start acting like you want to be. It's massive.

Speaker 2: 25:13

You might know the video being a basketball, but I was at a business conference and Dr Jo Lukens was speaking at one of Live Like Builds conferences and showing us a video and it was a female Australian basketball player and she was a female australian basketball player, um, and she was shooting hoops like from I don't know basketball, but like way back, yeah, and like five in a row, like just straight in and then stop the video and like um, like basically asked what, what's your opinion of her? And everyone's like, oh, she's amazing, like that's incredible, how does she do that? And then keeps playing the video and then the numbers come up and like you don't like, when you just see the five shoots, it's like every like they talk about a lot now in these days, like everyone only sees the end result. Yeah, they don't see all the fails, all the mistakes. And, um, on this video, like this video was taken after the normal afternoon training session. She'd stayed back and the five in a row was like 116 to 121. Yeah, like she'd been shooting for two hours.

Speaker 2: 26:23

Yeah, um, and I think that's something that gets overlooked. With apprentices, with employees, like you've got to have consistency, you've got to show up, you've got to put in the extra yards, you've got to put in that bit of extra time every day, like absolutely make sure the site's tidy, the site fences shut up, the windows are all shut, like don't be in a rush to just fuck off and get home and get on instagram, sink some piss with your mates. Like that consistency, that little bit of extra effort, like some of my team members call it the extra one percent yeah, that little one percent every day, day after day, will get you where you want to be yeah, for sure that's not perfect every day.

Speaker 1: 27:03

That's something you gotta remember as well. Or I tell myself, you know every day is not perfect, but as long as you're tracking in the right direction over time it's that whole like long graph thing right over time, a little bit ups and downs, but you sort of get there in the end. So, like I say, just got to be consistent and keep trying your best and showing up really.

Speaker 2: 27:21

So, apart from you, like being hard on yourself and pushing yourself like does your current business have like kpis, or like targets you haveIs or targets you have to meet? Do you have to meet budgets, timeframes, all that?

Speaker 1: 27:32

Not that I see really anyway, so maybe there is.

Speaker 2: 27:36

So how do you know?

Speaker 1: 27:36

if you're doing a good job, how does it keep getting built? I guess they're still standing upright. No, my boss and I I'm the only supervisor we talk all day, every day, crossing paths on the phone, that sort of stuff. It's pretty direct feedback all the time, whether something's going good or something's not going good. So I think, just him being the way he is, I get that constant feedback and gauge how things are, tracking and whatever. I just ask the question too how am I going? What am I doing bad? We had a six-month review Tell me what I'm not doing. Well, that's annoying you and or something I need to get better at, and we had a bit of a chit-chat and all right, cool, that's what I'm going to work on now. Let's go do that. I'm doing this, this and this. Right, I need to do this, this and this to get no that is goal.

Speaker 2: 28:26

Well, that every single employee should be doing that. That's the only way to improve. Like, if you don't know, you're fucking up what you're doing wrong. You, boston, like those other team members, don't like how do you know to improve on?

Speaker 1: 28:37

you don't, I guess. But and every boss is different, right? Some bosses you know I've worked for in the past, they'll tell you straight away if you're doing bad.

Speaker 2: 28:46

Some aren't that way inclined that I want to bark at you all day, so you have to go and look for the information to get the feedback, but even the ones that are barking at you every day and like there's, there's always room to ask yeah, yeah, absolutely like. What can I do better? What would make me a better employee?

Speaker 1: 29:03

like I don't know if that's, it's all old-fashioned stuff, but I feel like it's, it's just gone, like it doesn't happen much anymore yeah, I was very lucky, I guess, with my upbringing, mom and dad pretty just hard-working people and dad always used to say they're both or dad's in financial planning, life insurance, that sort of industry, so nothing to do with trades. I was the first tradie in my family. You know dad's in that industry and all his brothers are in law and entrepreneurs and all that sort of stuff. So yeah, it's completely separate. But I guess it's the principles and the values of turning up doing the work. Dad always used to say when we were at school have you done the work? You know it's like yeah, dad, yeah, I didn't really quite didn't grasp that until I went out and had to, you know, try and prove myself as an athlete, prove myself as a chippy and now supervisor.

Speaker 2: 29:52

You know you have to do the work hey, you were like you're pretty, like you switched on for 25 year old. But even just that comment like that it blows my mind. Like because people don't think like that, like people don't think I have to prove myself, like people just think they're entitled, they show up to work, shit happens, they're going to get a pay rise Like no one. Like to me, that is gold, that is an awesome employee. Like someone that's thinking like what do I need to improve on? What do I need to get better at or prove? Like proving stuff. Like there's so much entitlement these days, everyone wants to have the carpentry business or be the builder yeah, without doing the two, five, ten years experience and having learning all the hard mistakes and all those sorts of things, which, which I guess is fine if, like for people like yourself that are actually reaching out, yeah, and wanting feedback, um, and getting advice.

Speaker 1: 30:48

I feel like it's a bit naive if you don't. You know, if I wasn't to reach out to you and seek some advice, I could just see myself falling flat on my face pretty quickly and I think that embarrassment kind of scares me into. You know, asking questions and trying to find the answers out, because it would be a pretty steep landing curve if you didn't do this sort of stuff, you know.

Speaker 2: 31:08

So I love it, mate. Mate, like one thing, a big lesson in my life, and I like I never did it at school and I really never did it for the first probably 15 years of my career, but and like, even now, like knowing what I know and doing what I do, like I really enjoy asking questions, yeah, and like it's something for a long, a big part of my life. I just sat on my hands, I I didn't ask questions, I was too embarrassed, I didn't want people to think I didn't know stuff, yeah, whereas now I probably bug the shit out of people with questions.

Speaker 1: 31:38

Yeah, I know, some days I call my boss. You know, even yesterday afternoon it was 2.30. I'm like I swear this is the last phone call for the day he goes. Last phone call for the day he goes. Yeah, sure, no worries, what's up? You know, I had a chat about some different things coming up, just because I'd rather ask and know and learn and find out the answer. Then you know well, it comes back to that treating the business like your own, like I'd take it personally if we didn't get an inspection on footings and concrete turns up or something like that. Like that would really annoy me and upset me. I'm sure it would upset him too. So just trying to stay ahead of things like that and ask questions, it's invaluable.

Speaker 2: 32:15

So what sort of systems are in place to like do you have job schedules? Do you have any apps that you tick the task off?

Speaker 1: 32:22

Yeah, I made my own with the help of my boss, of course. I run sheets for every job and stuff, so I just print them out for each job. They've got stage one, two and three. I'm very like I have to write it down. You know I have to physically cross something off or write it down and just go through the checklist. I'm not someone who can like have 50 things in their brain and just remember them like that. You know I've got to have a run sheet, go through it.

Speaker 1: 32:48

've ordered this, I've ordered that. Yes, it's been requested, booked, that sort of stuff, confirmed. So they're like my personal things that no one else sees because they don't need to know that stuff. But we've got our work calendar that I do all the scheduling and all that, all that sort of stuff through there and my boss has a bit of input on that when he needs to or he'll steer me in the right direction. Like you know, I think we could bring this forward or push that out, or you're getting a bit too close on this and yeah, that's basically how we run things so you don't have a full schedule from start to finish um, in a way, yes, but not not like all pre-planned out, because we've got so many jobs on the go, sort of in stages I'd say, but yeah, each stage is planned out, ready to go, yeah.

Speaker 2: 33:34

Yeah, no, I find it really interesting, just yeah, finding out how other builders do this.

Speaker 1: 33:40

Yeah, and we probably don't have that pressure as much, because a lot of them are specs for himself, you know. So we don't have to necessarily give a handover date or anything like that. It's like, all right, we're starting these, we've got these ones coming up, this is the standard we build them to and the time frame that we should roughly be tracking along. Go for it, go make it happen geez, that'll be.

Speaker 2: 34:04

Uh, that wouldn't be too bad some of the time, but, um, so, mate, what's your goals like? Where do you want to end up?

Speaker 1: 34:10

Definitely as a builder. I am with my brother as well. I've mentioned before he's an apprentice for us. I think my brother and I team up and take it on together. Go start building some houses. Is he currently working for you? Yep, he's a second year apprentice for us for who we're working for now and he loves it too. He listens to the podcast as well. I've got him on to it. Very good, keep spreading the word, mate. Yeah, so yeah, eventually, but you know no set date or anything like that. I'm just focusing on enjoying the opportunity I've got now and learning as much as I can, and eventually we'll get there.

Speaker 2: 34:46

But yeah, that's the end goal, yeah no, like I said before, I think it's really exciting times for people like yourself. Younger guys like we're seeing a massive influx in our live like build my training business, so people that uh either still carpenters, uh supervising all, and like working through on their way to get their bills licensed yeah, reaching out and signing up with us and just learning everything they need to learn. But what we're seeing is, besides having access to all the documents, the systems, library, everything we have, just being able to involve themselves in a community. So we've got guys and girls in our community that aren't builders yet, right through to guys that have been builders for 35 years, and so young blokes like yourself like being involved in a community like that that just has access to this wealth of knowledge. Yeah, like you can ask anything like whether it's to do with any type of trades, any materials, any products, any labor, like whether it's to do with costs, like suppliers, like um, we just see those guys just really like skyrocketing.

Speaker 2: 35:56

Yeah, and I think to myself like far out, like if I had access to a group like this when I was in my mid-20s I would be 10 years ahead of where I am now yeah like it really excites me, like because the industry has got a lot of room for improvement and like I think it's happening. Yeah, like you young guys are going to be the one that really make it happen.

Speaker 1: 36:17

Yeah, it's exciting, like it is sort of echoing throughout the industry, like a lot of my mates obviously I've got lots of mates around my age in the industry and like we're all talk about it. You know, like really taking the initiative and doing the things that are going to help us doing things now they're going to help us later in life. Like let's don't just do it the hard way because that's the way that our bosses did it or that's the way that it has to. You think it has to be, because that's how long how it's been. Take the initiative, start trying to find things out for yourself. Reach out to guys like yourself who have done it, been there, done it, worn the shirt, made all the mistakes, and can offer some advice to guys like us to help us just get over that first hump and then keep going from there.

Speaker 2: 37:01

It's amazing Now, with everything I've done, I see so many references from sporting, the sporting fields you think about, like the queensland nrl team, like what do they do every time they go into um camp for the year?

Speaker 2: 37:18

they get the older players there oh, yeah, the guys that have been played 20, 20 for 20 years or played 100 games and they get them there telling them the stories, geeing them up, learning from their experiences. You hear about those stories so much in sporting circles and yet when it comes to the construction industry it's like, well, it's not anymore, it's starting to turn, but for a long time it's been. People are scared to share those stories and probably maybe even a little bit embarrassed. They don't want to ask the questions. Why do you think?

Speaker 1: 37:50

that is, why wouldn't people want to share their journey? Because, coming from a sporting background, it was the best thing ever when ex-NBL players or guys who had a little bit of NBA experience would come to training just because they were in town. You just watch them and you're in awe and you just want to chew their ear off and ask about their experiences and stuff, and they're more than happy to tell it because they're proud of it. Do you think that's part of why builders don't want to share it? Because they're not proud of it or they don't think they've done as well as what they should have, or oh look, I speaking from my own experience.

Speaker 2: 38:22

I think a lot of it is to do with um. Like people feel ashamed that they should know more. Uh, they feel ashamed to put their hand up and because they, I I feel well, I don't. I know there are so many people in our industry that are living paycheck to paycheck, um on face value, like they look like they're killing it. Social media has, I think, made it a lot worse, but I think people feel ashamed to put their hand up and really expose the truth about their businesses and about their knowledge. They might be incredible tradesmen or incredible builders, but, yeah, they're embarrassed that they don't understand the business.

Speaker 2: 39:05

I think I like, I know, I was for a very long time like, yeah, I was like, fuck, I'm building multi, multimillion-dollar homes. I've got a massive crew. I should know how to do this shit. I'm not going to put my hand up and admit that I don't. It's the worst mistake I ever made because it just put me through years of hell and a lot of stress. I don't know. Definitely, social media, let's face it, there's a lot to live up to these days. Like you watch all these trades online that they've all got their new dual cars with their canopies and their $40,000 tool trailers, and they all look nice and pretty and all got their hair and beards done like it's. There's a lot going on like there's a lot to live up to.

Speaker 1: 39:46

Yeah, it's pretty daunting. It can can be I. For guys like us, it seems like a really big step away, you know, and obviously it is. There's lots of years of hard work that have gone into getting people to that position, but that's why I'm inclined to reach out and sort of find out what those guys have done, like yourself. How did you get here? Because it seems like a long jump away for someone at 25 right now, you know.

Speaker 2: 40:12

So yeah, I don't think it is, mate. I think, just from our conversation today, I I want to stay in contact with you and I think, mate, I have no doubt by the time you're 30, you will have your own successful um building business. So you got a good head on your shoulder, you're asking the right questions. You, you're reaching out, you're getting help. So that's the first part of it, like getting that help reaching out, asking questions. I do firmly believe. But, like in our industry, there is a lot that just can't be learned without years of doing it. Yeah, like you, you've got to have the runs on the board. Yeah, like you just can't go. Yeah, what's the board? Yeah, like you just can't go. Yeah, what's the example? What do you reckon? Oh, mate, I'll probably get myself in the shit. Someone will complain. But like, there's a guy Nothing against him, I don't know him, but there's a guy on Instagram, another builder from Melbourne that I see Like he started his own training thing, he's doing some seminars and stuff, and like his fucking bio, in his bio it it's got 50 million, like 50 m plus, completed projects and every time, every time it like it doesn't. I've hardly seen it, but I've seen it enough to think what does who cares? Yeah, I know builders that do 50 mil a month. Like why? Why do you think putting 50 plus million completed projects makes you an expert? Yeah, because you might have done 50 million plus completed projects and in the next 12 months shit might turn pear-shaped and you could go broke. Yeah, um, it's probably one of my biggest pet hates in life. Like, I hate that everything gets related to dollar values. Yeah, um, like, we've done over 200 million dollars worth of projects now and in the years I've had my building business and I don't know everything. I'm not perfect. I'm still learning every single day. Yeah, but I definitely believe I've got enough runs on the board now that, like, I know what to do to make it keep going successfully.

Speaker 2: 42:06

I, I think our industry is it's a long-term game. Yeah, there's a lot of people like you see it you almost see it every month like there is so many trades and building businesses and even supplying businesses that start up. They they go really well for one, two or three years and then they're either gone or they've slowed right down or they've had to go and work for somebody else because it didn't pan out. I was actually only talking to a big accounting firm yesterday about this and they were saying it's super common in our industry, yeah, to see like someone will go out, a trader or builder, they'll start their own business, so they'll sign up to the accountant firm and get their books and stuff done and they'll have two or three good years and then decide to build their own house and then just get themselves in a heap of financial stress, a lot of pressure, and then realize, oh fuck, I did that a bit early, didn't really understand my numbers, and now I've put all my money into this house that I thought was mine, it's not really mine, it's a tax man. And uh, now I've got to try and work my way out of it. And it just happens over and over again and look, I did that a bit as well.

Speaker 2: 43:20

Like it's easy in our industry. Like you're dealing with big dollars. It's not like you're opening a, a retail store or a restaurant and, um, like you're dealing with 20, 30, 40, 50 bucks, couple hundred bucks. Like, yeah, but you can be a tradie and have a carpenter gang and take on your first frame and it might be 40 000, yeah, and you think, holy shit, that's awesome, 40 000 bucks, I'm gonna go and buy a new dual card. Um, you do bloody low-doc finance. You get the new dual cab because you think out of that $40,000, you're going to make $20,000. And you don't understand what your boss used to deal with. You don't understand timeframes, you don't understand insurances, you don't understand all the fixings and fittings that have to get bought.

Speaker 1: 44:05

I 100% learned that lesson. Like I think I was telling you earlier, when my boss was retiring, he gave me two frames to give me a head start. You know like, look, take these, take your brother, go do these two frames. And same thing. Like I saw the big number at the end and I was like, oh sweet, like it's going to be awesome, it's a great start. It was good for us at the time. But you know, when I did them I was, I took the time to like I wrote out every single cost, exactly how many hours it took us to do you know frames, the feats, the fix out, every like clip and nails, like calculated it all out and what I actually made at the end of it, minus all the other stuff. You may as well work for someone, it was not far off it and I was like, okay, maybe we need to change tactics a little bit about how we're going to do this because I don't think this is going to buy us.

Speaker 1: 44:55

You know, the big boat in the big house, benny like I reckon we need to get a little bit quicker or you know, like just stuff like that it was.

Speaker 2: 45:03

I'm glad you said that, because that I see that happening so much in our industry, even with older trades. Like it shits me that people think to get more money they need to be paid more. Yeah, because that's not how it works. Yeah, and ultimately, those same people that are expecting that are the same people that are whinging everything's starting to cost too much. Yeah, like I was. I don't know why, but it was one thing that I was. I don't even know how how it happened or why did it, but I was always like I would track everything.

Speaker 2: 45:33

Like right, when I very first started contracting, I knew the finished price I was going to get for the job.

Speaker 2: 45:37

I worked it back as best I could, how many hours we needed to get done, what we needed to get done each day, and I'll admit, like the first probably two years, like we were literally making hundreds maybe sometimes $1, on each job we did, and that's what pushed me to scale Like that's why I ended up mid twenties with 40 odd carboners Cause I was like, fuck, 500 bucks Isn't good, but if we can do 20 a week, that's good money. Yeah, but like one of the, I had an apprentice, a guy we put through his time and, um, he was just keen as, like when he finished he just wanted to do his own work and he was. He was a really good carpenter, yeah, and so we did a deal. I said, oh mate, look, we've got a lot of work coming up. The next one we got. The next year we got because at the time I was using some contract carpenter gangs as well to help us out. Yeah, and we'd had some conversations and he'd asked me what they were getting and like, same deal.

Speaker 2: 46:34

He's like, fuck you serious yeah, they're getting 49 000 to do the frame on that job. So yeah, it was if you want to have a crack, you can have a crack. And um, he did. He ended up we. We basically stopped his employment with us and he we helped him out, guide. He set up his own carpentry business and got an apprentice and he actually one of our other carpenters went with him and this is probably 12, 14, might even be 15 years ago and I still remember going to that job every couple of days and going mate, you need to get moving. It's like what do you mean, mate? What do you mean we're it?

Speaker 2: 47:10

it's like you're not mate if you don't get moving, you're going to be paying me. Like what do you mean? And make that? Like that just kept happening and happening and he just didn't understand it and he, uh, like I don't know, I I had a bit of a soft spot for him, I helped him out a bit, but, yeah, he literally got to a point where he, like he was drawing all that, he was getting on that frame, yeah, and he still had weeks of work to do and we ended up coming to an agreement that we just we sort of met in the middle and finished it, um, finished it on early rate.

Speaker 2: 47:48

But I just feel like that happens a lot, like people don't understand what it actually takes to go out on your own and get into it. And they and instead of thinking, holy shit, for me to make money, I actually need to work harder, I need to get shit done, I need to get more organized they just think, oh shit actually. Uh, mr builder, man, I never made any money out of that, so, uh, on the next one, I'm going to charge you two thousand dollars more yeah, to cover myself for the last one to cover me for being useless and slow and not being organized.

Speaker 2: 48:17

It doesn't work like that. No, definitely not. But, um, mate, I think you're going to do really well. I'm you've lucky's, actually got um sent through some questions and, uh, I printed them out here but we haven't got to him yet. But I'm going to hand them over to you, matt, because I want to make sure when, when you sent them through, I quickly glanced and I'm like holy shit, this is gonna like this guy switched on. I could tell by your questions.

Speaker 1: 48:36

So, thank, you can't take all the credit. My brother sat down with me and we put our heads together, so shout out to my brother, ben, for some of the input as well. But I guess we'll start off. We sort of touched on a little bit of this stuff, but we'll start with the first one. Todd, your supervisor I hear you talk about him all the time on the podcast. Tell me why he's such a good supervisor and why you keep him on, and what value does he add to your business?

Speaker 2: 49:02

We could talk all day about this but, like I touched on before, he treats I do believe he treats the business as his own. There's definitely room for improvement, but overall I'm very confident. Like he's been with me long enough and I think where a lot of this comes from. Like I've got heaps of images in my head right now, like through the years, like turning up to site whether it's a footing inspection, frame inspection or even just for a site meeting and walking around and like just hearing Todd talk to those contractors, talk to the team, point things out that are wrong, tell them how to fix it, and like I've gotten the truck heaps of times and just thought, fuck yeah, like he's, he's actually picking things up and probably being a bit harsher on things, like on quality, than what I may have been. So just what makes him a great supervisor is that I have 100% confidence that he will deliver a quality product.

Speaker 2: 50:00

He understands the values of my business. He respects my business. I think that's a really big one that gets overlooked these days. Respect, yeah, like he respects having a great job. Uh, he respects that we really look after him. Um, he quite often, like will bring ideas to the table like, hey, we need to improve on this, or this is this trade's shit. We need to start looking for another one or um, just all those little things that basically come back to him treating the business like it's his own.

Speaker 1: 50:35

Yeah, all those one percenters you're talking about before they? Just add up for you, do they?

Speaker 2: 50:40

yeah, probably the biggest thing he lets us down on he fucking never cleans his truck. Oh, really, like that. Uh, I'm anal on shit like that, like that. To me that's representing your business, like your work vehicle should be clean all the time, tidy, neat, respectable. Yeah. But, mate, if that's the worst, like everything else he does is pretty good. True, that's probably one you can let slide a little bit.

Speaker 2: 51:00

But I'm a bit like yeah, I like like washing the car and keeping it clean, yeah, um, and I guess to go the other way, like probably probably his biggest downfall because I think this is important advice as well is he becomes too friendly with people on site. Yeah, and look, don't get me wrong workplaces, like you've got to be mates, you've got to get on. But it can get to a point like probably not so much with the team but more so contractors Like if you let contractors contractors, if you give them an inch, they'll take two miles. Avoid that so you can't hold their hand. You've got to be tough on them. Uh, that's, that's definitely todd's biggest downfall.

Speaker 1: 51:42

Yeah, I struggled with that going from being a chippy one of the boys now you see that like we're all mates, especially the guys we work with now. You know, because we were subbing to who I'm working for now as Chippies. Yeah, you know, like the first month I'm walking around like hey, mate, how are you going? Good to see you. Yeah, I'm supervising now all this sort of stuff and it was all like lovey-dovey good to see you boys, and then I, the job I had to do, and it's like I can't be like that with you guys anymore. You know we can be mates but at the end of the day you've got to do a, b and c and if you don't deliver I have to put my foot down and wear the supervisor hat first, and now I can be your mate afterwards. It's no good for anyone.

Speaker 2: 52:21

Mate, like people, look, I'll put my hand up. I've been bad for it over the years as well. But yeah, the more you give, more they take. Yeah and right down to.

Speaker 2: 52:30

We just had a big team meeting in the last week with my whole team right down to the site cleanliness Like if my own team isn't keeping the site clean, how can we hold the other trades accountable? Because if they show up like the sparky comes to do a fit off, if the job's not swept out and tidy, how can I hold him accountable for sweeping his mess out after he's done his cut and strip or done his final fit off Because he's going to go? Oh, there was already rubbish there, so just all that type of stuff 100%.

Speaker 1: 53:00

The biggest one I have is we have when we get the benchtops installed. I put these signs on there that say you know, my boss gave them to me. Do not put anything on here bums, cigarettes, lunchboxes, the whole lot keep it off the stone. And literally just last week my brother, as an apprentice, was doing some skirting on the tiles and left the gun sitting on the benchtop. I said, bennyny, what are you doing, mate? Like read the sign. He's like yeah, put it down softly though I know you put it softly. I watched you do it, waiting to see if you'd read the sign. But it's not about how you treated it, it's about the painter who's just over there watching you do that. If you know we allow what we accept, if you do that and they see it, then I can't rouse on him when they do it and then the whole thing falls, falls down. I might as well not have a job. Yeah, he goes. Oh true, okay, like cool. So can we take the gun off the benchtop please?

Speaker 2: 53:55

yeah, look, that's definitely something we've um, let slide on the last couple of jobs and it's a pet out of mind. Like I can't stand when you walk into someone's house that's near finished and there's shit sitting on benches and stuff, drinks on finished timber and stuff like that.

Speaker 1: 54:09

Yeah, keep it off? Yeah, definitely, but anyway, we'll jump into the next question. Um, this is one that I really wanted to know and I guess I've sort of already answered it, but we've answered it together. But do you believe the pathway to becoming a builder is appropriate? So now you've got to do the two years, two years supervision um, what I'm doing at the moment and, if not, why?

Speaker 2: 54:33

uh, look, I I definitely don't. Yeah, I think there needs to be, um, a lot more to it. Um, I've said a lot of times like saying, in saying that I, I wouldn't have got my builders license if it was a bit harder than what it was. Um, it took me a bit over two years to get mine. But, um, I believe that our industry has a lot of the problems it has because trades and builders are given their license too easy. Yeah, trades to start off with.

Speaker 2: 55:06

I believe that trades should not be allowed to start their own business for a minimum of two years after they've been signed off. Yeah, you, just you cannot get the knowledge and the experience you need, not, not this, not even talk like bringing running a business into it, but you cannot get the skills and knowledge, experience across the board in your apprenticeship. And so we have all these people that finish their apprenticeship, get signed off, think they can go straight into their own, earn the big bucks and are doing building work that isn't to code and it's costing us all money. And then that just, I think, gets worse when you throw builders in the mix. You have builders that don't understand how I believe you shouldn't be able to get your builder's ticket unless you've got, I think, four years probably, experience. And again, you just can't.

Speaker 2: 56:13

Someone like yourself you're doing 20 to 30 jobs a year, yeah, so maybe instead of a time period, it needs to be a job period, a job amount, because if you're doing 20 jobs a year, 40 jobs in two years, you're going to have a shitload of experience.

Speaker 2: 56:26

Yeah're gonna. If you're doing 20 jobs a year, 40 jobs in two years, you're gonna have a shitload of experience. Yeah, but if you well like an example, if there was someone that worked for me that needed two years experience, depending on the size of the job and the level of finish, we do between six and ten jobs a year. So by the time they finish with us, they might have only done 15 20 jobs, yeah. And then you go right down to a builder that might only do one or two jobs a year. Yeah, if that person's got to get two years experience in two years, they might do two sets of footings. Yeah, they might do two frames, like, even though they've done their apprenticeship. So, yeah, maybe we need to stop talking about time periods and actually start talking about quantity of work. Yeah competency.

Speaker 1: 57:05

yeah, yeah, yeah yeah competency.

Speaker 2: 57:07

Yeah, because, mate, let's face it like there is so much to know, so much. Like different soil types, different footing designs, different slab designs, different ways to do framing. Like different waterproofing requirements. Like roof flashings, different window installations. Like what material goes, where are they fit for purpose? Like yeah, floor finishes. Like safety requirements.

Speaker 1: 57:34

Like do you think that experience should be all for one builder? Because, let's face it, you learn off the environment you're in. So right now I'm in new homes essentially I'm not dealing with renovation work on a big scale or anything like that so I could get my license, go out, take on a reno job and absolutely do my end because I've just I haven't seen that or been exposed to that sort of work before, but I see that, yeah, I wouldn't do this. But you see the money and you go. Yeah, that's something I could go and do.

Speaker 2: 58:04

Oh man, we've had carpenters come to work for us that have spent their whole career doing new builds and we stick them with us to do renos and they will stand there for half a day scratching their head because they don't know how to profile it or how to square the job or how to make the extension fit in with the old part of the house, because the old part of the house is all out of square, like how to pick your best line, and there's a lot of knowledge. So, yeah, I definitely believe in that and I actually tell when my young guys finish their time they want to go. Yeah, I encourage it because, exactly like they're going to learn something different off you, they're going to learn something different off shay over there. They're going to learn something different over there. So, yeah, yeah, the more experience you can get, the better.

Speaker 2: 58:46

But in saying that that, like you can't really put one blanket over everyone, because if people work with my building business, like we do everything from large homes on difficult sites, new builds, renovations, extensions, internal refurbs yeah, like jobs with um driven copper log piers, job with screw piers, job with board concrete piers we do everything. So you get a shitload of experience when you work with my business. So, yeah, I'm not sure. I definitely think there needs to be a, instead of being a time period, there needs to be a minimum quantity of work, but then there also needs to be tougher competency basis. And look, I think again, if they bring CBD points into our industry, it will help clean it up. Like, even if builders have been building for 20 years, if they are made to go to seminars, like just sit at the seminars, listen to things, it's going to make their ears prick up. They're going oh shit, this is. Maybe I should have been coming to these things the last 20 years.

Speaker 1: 59:51

Yeah, Dad's industry has it and he always talks about it. And recently there was a big I don't know if you call it a royal commission, but something went on where people had to get rellicensed and all that sort of stuff and there was a lot of older guys that were getting the shits and wanting to leave the industry and all that sort of stuff. But the ones who stuck around and did the extra training and got those CBD points up made a massive difference.

Speaker 2: 1:00:16

They can't do it quick enough. I'm a massive advocate for it. We've Live Like Builds actually been working on our own sort of certification model which, even if they bring CBD in in the future, we will be doing that because we want to make sure our builders are next level again.

Speaker 1: 1:00:33

I've even noticed on that tools app which I heard of from the podcast. I downloaded that and subscribed to that because I use it all the time at work to get information quickly before I go to the NCC. But I see now it pops up where they're launching a program like that soon. So it's just cool to see that sort of stuff happening where you can go and get that extra knowledge and training.

Speaker 2: 1:00:53

It's just a shame that it's had to be done privately. The government needs to support the industry and put money where it needs to be.

Speaker 1: 1:01:04

True, all right. Next question Feel like you're in the hot seat, so another sort of personal one for me. But what are some things that I can be actively doing now to prepare myself to become a builder that you wish you knew when you're in my shoes?

Speaker 2: 1:01:22

mate, it's a no-brainer for me, like I. I can tell from the conversation we've been having like you're going to be a good builder. My advice is, mate, you the the more time, money and energy you can put into personal development. Like it's yeah, I don't, it's there's no, I don't even have words for it. Like it's just, it's a no-brainer. Yeah, like, just get out there, go to seminars, learn things. Like open your mind up and uh, just realize that, like I can listen to a whole 7, 12, 15 hour audible book, yeah, and it might be shit, but there'll be one sentence or one paragraph or one chapter. Yeah, that I won't forget, I'll write it down and I'll get something from it. So just invest time in you, mate.

Speaker 1: 1:02:13

So what are some things that you've found really useful, or different seminars or books, or I'm open to anything to Stay tuned, mate.

Speaker 2: 1:02:22

Level Up is having the best event the industry has ever seen later this year, so stay tuned, we'll be announcing that. Well, actually, we'll have to make sure this podcast is out before that. Now, mate, I've tried a bit of everything now and I get a little bit from everything. Grant Cade's own stuff has been massive for me, absolutely love it, can't get enough of it. His 10X rule book is my go-to, like I've actually.

Speaker 2: 1:02:47

I just finished it this morning. Um, I was having, I was I've been really pumped for 2025, but I was like fuck, I just I want to get next level, and so I actually paused another audible book I was listening to the other day. I was like fuck it, I'm going back to the to the boss, I'm going back to the boss, I'm going back to 10X. So just finished that over the last week and for me, that book I haven't listened to it for about probably 18 months. So that's probably my sixth or seventh time I've listened to that book and every time I listen to it it just drives me more and more. But after listening to it over the last week, something I took away from it was if you want to, if you want to learn things you like number one, you have to look up to people that are where you want to be. Yeah, you have to surround yourself with like-minded people, like absolutely a no-brainer. And you have to make sure like it's not just looking up to people that are where you want to be. You need to make sure that it's not bullshit. You need to make sure they got the runs on the board and that they're following through on what they say. And listen to that book. This morning we're finishing it off. That book's 16 years old and in that book he rattles off. He talks about how he writes his journals and how he writes his goals and shit down. Yeah, and he gave an example of what he was. He's like like, look, this is what I'm writing down at the moment and I'm sitting there thinking you've achieved all that, and like some of them were massive. Yeah, and so for me, that just inspired me even more to take what he says even more on board, because he's actually doing it. Yeah. So, yeah, mate, I think any, any seminar is a good seminar. Yeah, like it can be to do with anything investing wealth, property, finances, personal development, business, audible books so the only things that get listened to in my truck mate is Spotify and Audible.

Speaker 2: 1:04:40

I listen to audible books and podcasts probably 70% of the time.

Speaker 2: 1:04:45

I can't listen to them all the time, so I break them up with some tunes and crank the tunes up yeah, just get into them.

Speaker 2: 1:04:52

And I don't know about you, but I find, like I used to be in this mindset that I couldn't listen to them a lot because I would lose track, like I'd lose what was in my head or what I was singing about or who I had to call yeah. But I actually find now that, like I would lose track yeah, like I'd lose what was in my head or what I was thinking about or who I had to call yeah. But I actually find now that, like getting in a bit of a routine where, like when I pull up somewhere, I check my phone, check my emails, check my Slack messages, smash them out, go and do what I've got to do yeah. Get back in the truck. Same thing. Do that straight onto the audible, yeah. So I do that straight onto the audible, yeah. So I'm getting everything out of my head and then I'm focused on what I'm listening to yeah, while I'm listening to it.

Speaker 1: 1:05:30

If I just really clears your head and put you in a different state of mind and I just work.

Speaker 2: 1:05:35

I'd turn up to the next spot, g'd up and ready to go, like, yeah, um, but you cannot spend enough money on yourself, like um, and I probably to put my money where my mouth is. That definitely happened last year. Like I went to that jt fox seminar yeah, bought tickets. He was on stage, he threw this deal out there and I was like fuck it, I shouldn't, but I am and it was like 10 grand to spend an hour with him and, uh, it was the best 10 grand I've ever spent.

Speaker 2: 1:06:06

Getting that one-on-one time with him gave me so much structure. He gave me some really key ideas. He met me for an hour and he asked me about my businesses. He asked what my profits were, what my income was, what my turnover was, how many people in my team, what my markets were, what my company values were, and literally just threw ideas at me. I jumped straight back in my truck, I wrote them all down like three pages of notes and implemented every single one of them, and some of them have generated millions of dollars. Wow. So I can't. You've got to take that leap sometimes and just get out of your comfort zone and just go for it. It's pretty good odds. Yeah, yeah, wow.

Speaker 2: 1:06:49

And look that could go the other way as well, but you're never going to know unless you have a go. True, and I think the other thing, the other big turning point, mate, that I think I'm very different now to how I was brought up, is I'm very open-minded, yeah, like, whereas I used to hear things and see things like oh yeah, that's all right for you, you've got a heap of money. Oh, you've got the time, you've already achieved it. Oh, you've got a rich daddy, you've had handouts, whereas now I'm like no, fuck it, that's good information. I need to take it away and implement it.

Speaker 1: 1:07:16

Yeah, it's crazy. I've been really trying to switch my mindset from that sort of stuff to now be more open-minded and just soaking being a sponge like why, instead of being like, oh, that guy's got that, you know good on him. You know, daddy must have tipped the tin in for him, or something like that. Like, okay, how did he actually get that? What steps did he take when he was my age?

Speaker 2: 1:07:39

like someone must be doing something right along the way, there's only one difference mate between people that have what they want to have and people that don't. So they've implemented things. Yeah, but you can have. You can have two people that go to the same seminar and hear the same shit. And I I grant, actually pointed this out like my wife and I went to his 10x conference back in 2020 and he called the audience out. He's like there should have been 13,000 people here and like there's like we know from the counters at the door that there's already 1300 or something that haven't even bothered. They paid for the ticket and they haven't even bothered to come. You guys are doing well because you actually turned up. And then he goes.

Speaker 2: 1:08:19

I look around the room and like some of you just sitting here like smiling, like what the fuck that doing? Look at the guy beside you. He's got a notepad out. He's taking notes. Yeah, like the guy taking notes is going to achieve shit. You're sitting there smiling. You're not going to achieve shit. Yeah, and I I have a notepad with me everywhere I go now and I just write shit down. Yeah, and that's I heard it from. Uh, I call him robert kawasaki. That, uh, whatever his name, is the um kiyosaki, like he told me at one of his seminars, or he said at one of his seminars and it just sunk with me mate, what the hand does, the mind follows 100%, so just write shit down.

Speaker 1: 1:08:57

I've been doing a lot of that lately. I have to write it down for work, for personal stuff. It's amazing the difference it makes, because I actually remember it. I'm not someone I think I said before I'm not someone who can just have all this information dropped on them and then just have it in my brain ready to access. No, it's got to be on the piece of paper written down and it actually sinks in. It holds you accountable. It does. It does hold you accountable because at the end of the day I go through it and it's like, okay, I've done that, don't shit, I haven't done that. Better get onto that tomorrow. I better get it done tonight, or you know.

Speaker 2: 1:09:30

But even if you don't get through like I do exactly the same thing, but even if very rarely, there might be one or two things. So if there is something that's not done before I finish that day, I go to the next page and I write finish yesterday's list. Yeah, and that's the first thing I do before I start the rest of the list. But how awesome do you feel whether it's five things on the list or 50, when you sit back every single day and you see a line item through them all?

Speaker 1: 1:09:54

Yeah, so very satisfying, probably instant gratification, same as being a chippy Turn around at the end of the day and you're like, wow, I built that. You know, we did that frame, did that cladding. It's probably the same thing, but just on a piece of paper, you know.

Speaker 2: 1:10:07

No, you are fucking so far ahead of your time. Like just that's a perfect analogy, because I think that's another area our industry struggles Like if you're a trader or a builder and I know that's the big difference between a trader that's on site and a builder that sits in like when you, when your business starts growing and you get to a point where you're doing a lot of admin work exactly like you just said, whether you're a framer, whether you're a plumber doing a fit off or an underslab or a plaster like you can look back at the end of the day and physically see what you've achieved. Yeah, but when you, your business starts to grow and you like I think that's why I like the notes being able to cross things off, because it's the only way some days that I know I've done something- yeah.

Speaker 2: 1:10:52

Yeah, interesting, it's crazy. I do it, for you're a wealth of knowledge, man Don't know about that, but try my best.

Speaker 1: 1:10:59

But I do it for training days as well. Like just conveniently in the front of my diary. It's got, you know, every day of the year blocked out. I've got a red and a green highlighter and at the end of the day, if I've trained, gets a green swipe, if I haven't trained, gets a red swipe. And that, like that red or green, really drives me sometimes gets me over the line to actually get up and go train or do something. Otherwise, yeah, I just get you lose track of what you have or haven't done. It's pretty easy to forget about it and steer off course pretty quickly, but definitely. Next question this is an interesting one. I'm keen to hear what you got to say about this. So every generation faces its own adversity in the industry, whatever that might be. What are you currently seeing and what do you foresee within residential construction as major challenges that we will face?

Speaker 2: 1:11:49

Well, mate, this will definitely stir the apple cart, get some complaints, but honestly, I feel like the biggest problems that our industry faces is everyone across the board, not just new apprentices is getting lazier. Yep, everyone across the board, not just new apprentices is getting lazier. Yeah, there is nowhere near the quantity of work getting done each day now is what I believe was done 20 years ago when I was an apprentice. Yeah, and I think that comes back a lot to the entitlement, yeah, and I believe that is going to have massive impact on our industry. It's to the price of housing is going to go up, like I said before, like someone doesn't make money because they were told they were going to get 10 grand to do it, so they think they need to charge a builder more. So if the builder, if everyone just keeps paying more and more and more and everyone keeps getting slower and slower which I believe is what's happening Just saturates, the industry with slow tradies.

Speaker 2: 1:12:47

Well, look, I definitely. I do think it's a big problem, but I think that problem comes from it's nobody's problem, like nobody's fault. But I definitely believe that every apprentice needs to do some time with a volume builder.

Speaker 1: 1:13:08

Yeah.

Speaker 2: 1:13:09

Because that's where you get your speed. Because you can't get speed on custom homes. Yeah, if you do your whole apprenticeship, it doesn't matter what trade you are on custom homes, you're definitely going to get the quality, but you just will not get the speed 100%, and so you need a bit of experience. You need a foot in each camp. You need to get the quality from the custom builders and the one-off builders. You need to get the speed from the volume builders.

Speaker 1: 1:13:33

Yeah, the last two years of my apprenticeship and the two years I worked as a qualified chippy, we were subcontractor chippies and it was go, go, go Darrell, the guy I worked for. He was 62 or 63 at the time and, mate, he would not stop all day, just hard working, knew exactly what was going on. He'd seen it a thousand times, could be. I was used to laugh. He'd be on the other end of the slab and I'd be twiddling my thumbs like trying to work something out and he would yell the answer out from down the other end. I go how do you even know what I'm? What I'm doing is? I can hear you thinking from here I'm what I'm doing, what I'm doing and I'm watching out of the back of my head. I know you're what you're struggling with crazy, but just that speed. And you know it's almost like a production line. You know it's like when you get a bunch of chippies who are all doing their job perfectly and everything is flying through, like it's pretty special to be a part of.

Speaker 2: 1:14:28

I loved it anyway. I think it's fantastic mate it reminded me of sport.

Speaker 1: 1:14:31

Like it's like, this is like. You know, I'm playing sport again. We're all doing our job. You know we're winning as a team. Like it's cool, yeah, it's such. But as well, you notice the guys who haven't had that, because they just don't have that second year. That gets them to get things done.

Speaker 2: 1:14:48

But I mean, I'm really, uh, I wasn't at the time, but I'm so glad I did two years of my time doing volume work. Yeah, it was uh. Yeah, it taught me routines, it taught me systems and processes, taught me to just have process, like everything organized in front of you. But yeah, so I definitely think, like, uh, speed is going to affect our industry and I think the the next one that closely follows. That's entitlement. Like everyone just wants that instant gratification now. They want, they want to be the tradie right now. They want to have the best car right now. They want to do the best jobs right now. They don't want to work their way up to it like, um, shortcuts aren't good for anyone. Yeah, you've got to do the, you have to do the hard yards, you've got to do the work to appreciate it so how do we change the mindset of people of my generation?

Speaker 1: 1:15:38

I had it.

Speaker 2: 1:15:39

I don't think well you don't seem to have that.

Speaker 1: 1:15:43

Yeah, not from this conversation, I wouldn't have picked it. I'd like to think I don't. I wasn't brought up that way, by any means. Like I said, dad was always like if you want something, go to work.

Speaker 2: 1:15:53

If you hadn't been given the opportunity to be a supervisor, would you have gone looking for it? 100%, you wouldn't have stayed a chippy for a bit longer.

Speaker 1: 1:16:01

No, I would have. Yeah, because I love it. I love being a chippy, it's great fun in the sun and all that sort of stuff, but at some point I would have had to put my foot down and go. If I want to become a builder, I have to supervise. Yeah, you know and it's easy to speculate now what I would have done I wouldn't have done. I would have finished my brother's time or helped my brother finish his time with me, and then he would have been a chippy somewhere on his own, or lots of different paths we could have taken. But I'm just fortunate that I got this opportunity to do this, which is why I grab it with both hands, because I know a lot of guys don't get this opportunity early on or they have to prove it through different other pathways and things like that. So, short answer yeah, I would have made this happen one way or another. I think, um, but yeah, I'm glad this happened this way, I'm really enjoying it.

Speaker 2: 1:16:54

Oh look, I don't know how to fix it. I, I and look, until people have tried things, it's really hard to tell them, but I just, I'm a firm believer that things like now I am like things happen so much more quickly, like everyone wants to get from here to there as quick as possible and so they try and shortcut everything. But reality is, if you actually do the hard yards, you get the knowledge, you get the experience. Yes, it might take you a couple extra years to get there, but when you get there, you've got this experience and you fucking go. Yeah, and look, I'm probably a perfect example. Like I wanted to get there quicker. I got there, fucking very quick, and then I spent 10 years fucking, going around in circles and failing and dealing with all the bullshit that comes with not doing shit right.

Speaker 2: 1:17:46

Yeah, um, and like I've talked about this a few times like finished my time by 21 um subcon. Like had 40 odd chippies by the time I was 25. I had my builder's license at 27 um. Was doing multi-million dollar homes by the time I was 28 um and then in my early like between 28 and 35, almost went broke three times until I pulled my head in got all the business experience and knowledge and self-development that I needed over a three-year period and was literally able to like I don't know the words for it, but like literally reach my targets in a four-year period that I'd taken the last 15 years trying to achieve.

Speaker 1: 1:18:36

But would you change how quickly you got there at the start?

Speaker 2: 1:18:41

Well, that's what I said before. Like I wish, mate, if someone had a, if there had been someone around. Like if social media had been around when I was your age, like when I was 25, mate, there was no. Like it's only 19 years ago, but there was no. Well, at least there was.

Speaker 2: 1:18:56

I wasn't using it, yeah, but I was looking for the builders to look up to mate. I've talked about it before. Like, mate, I'd run into bills at hardware and ask them questions. They'd say, mate, that's the industry, fucking, harden up, deal with it. Um, like I wanted builders to reach out to and give me advice and I wish back then I had, I had the I guess I'd almost say balls to go to seminars. Like I was embarrassed to go to seminars. I didn't, yeah, like, I thought they were rubbish, like and, and a lot of that I think comes from the way I was brought up.

Speaker 2: 1:19:29

Like, yeah, um, but yeah, I would have like if, if there was opportunity, if there was social media and there was. Look, I do it now. Like mate, I see guys on social media, um, that are same age or older than me, that are like doing something unbelievable or they've got a detail or they've. Yeah, like something. I reach out to them like hey, mate, that's fantastic, like that's awesome, like what's going on there? Like I ask questions? Yeah, if I'd ask questions 25 years ago, mate, I would be worth 300 million dollars now. Like it's, it's, it's that simple, yeah true?

Speaker 1: 1:20:08

well, keep asking questions then. Yeah, mate, yeah. Well, I guess we spoke a lot of. We have spoken a lot about this as well, but what are three things you would tell your younger self, unrelated to construction, that you know now?

Speaker 2: 1:20:20

so this can be anything personal, or yeah, um, I'll try and keep it to three, but, um, definitely, the first one is invest in myself, yep. Second one is figure out who you are. So if anyone listens to my podcast I'll let me talk about all the time. Let's just figure out who you are. Don't, don't worry about how you've been brought up, the beliefs, religions, family, all those types of things like, figure out who you are and who you want to be. And the third one would be stop, like, just change the stories you're telling yourself. Yeah, like, just stories are huge, mate. Like just there's no, I used to feel like a dick, like, and I guess it was again. It's still a lot to do with the way I was brought up, but like, and I'm not sure what you do, but like I would never tell myself fuck, you've done a good job, geez, you've had a, that's been a good day today. Like, um, or something you can do better or yeah like miss that or should have got this.

Speaker 2: 1:21:19

Yeah, yeah, like, mate, I'd fuck, I do it all the time now. Like I'll jump in my truck and like, fucking shout out, I'll leave a meeting like, yes, I've nailed that. Fuck, yeah, that went well. You've got to give yourself a pat on the back, believe in yourself and tell yourself that you can achieve. I'm definitely a firm believer that any single person on this planet I don't give a fuck how rich, poor, color, whatever you are you can be and have whatever you want. You just need to change the stories you're telling yourself. Yeah, that's good advice. So what stories do you?

Speaker 1: 1:21:52

tell yourself. Since listening to the podcast, I've definitely tried to start telling myself some good stories, but I believe I think Conor McGregor might have said it but if you can think it and you have the courage to speak it, it will happen you know, so I do try and spend a lot of time not a lot of time, but when the opportunity arises, you know, okay, I am good enough to do this.

Speaker 1: 1:22:18

I do know this, I can do that. I am going to become a builder, self-affirmation made, it's huge, yeah, and like I definitely didn't believe in it growing up or anything like that, you know pretty just straight edge, all right, if you want to go get it, go work for it. You know, go try and go figure it out, um, but it has helped, I think, in a lot of ways, just boosting your self-confidence a bit and working on things outside of the actual skill set you're doing. You know. So, like I said, telling yourself that you're good enough to do it, um, and just finding a way to do that, yeah. So those stories, and then I try and try and plan my narrative out a bit. You know like I'm gonna, and not you can't hold yourself too firm to it because life happens and things get in the way. But you know I want to do this by such time and just working through that, writing out a plan.

Speaker 2: 1:23:10

Mate, I hope every 25-year-old tradie in Australia is listening to this podcast. Because I'm serious, mate, I want to stay in touch with you. I want you to give me updates on how you're going because I'm super keen to see in five years where you're at. So we'll set a calendar reminder in the calendar and I'm sure keen to see in five years where you're at. So we'll set a calendar reminder in the calendar and I'm sure you'll be interviewing me on your podcast telling me how well your building business is doing.

Speaker 2: 1:23:34

Hopefully that's the plan. No, well, mate, look before we wrap it up. Have you got any more questions or is there anything else you want to know?

Speaker 1: 1:23:41

I think you've answered everything that I came here to find out and just appreciate the chat. Thank you. I'm going to take and implement it and give my best crack.

Speaker 2: 1:23:50

No good on you, mate. You're a good young fella and I'm seriously keen about seeing how you go. But look, guys, I hope you've enjoyed this episode of the podcast. I've actually got a lot out of sitting here talking to Lockie, so I'm sure you would have. Make sure you like, subscribe, share with your friends, tell the world about this podcast. We want to continue to make this Australia's number one construction podcast. Stay tuned, because we have some very big things coming up in 2025 and yeah, it's going to be epic. We'll see you on the next one. Are you ready to build smarter, live better and enjoy life?

Speaker 1: 1:24:24

Then head over to livelikebuildcom. Forward slash elevate to get started.

Speaker 2: 1:24:38

Everything discussed during the Level Up podcast with me, Dwayne Pearce, is based solely on my own personal experiences and those experiences of my guests. The information, opinions and recommendations presented in this podcast are for general information only, and any reliance on the information provided in this podcast is done at your own risk. We recommend that you obtain your own professional advice in respect to the topics discussed during this podcast.