The "Level Up" with Duayne Pearce Podcast
I take on the role of an authoritative voice that fearlessly communicates truths drawn directly from my lived experiences. With a genuine sense of ownership, my insights are free from any hidden agendas – they truly belong to the audience. My stories and journey add remarkable value, the key now lies in harnessing its power effectively to help others.
My purpose is to create a new residential building industry. My mission is to inspire unshakable self-confidence in my colleagues in the industry, empowering them to orchestrate prosperous, enduring, and lucrative businesses that bring exceptional projects to fruition for our clients.
My goal is to foster a deeper comprehension among clients about the identity and functions of builders, redefining their perceptions.
The "Level Up" with Duayne Pearce Podcast
You Wouldn't Wrap Yourself in Foil So Why Would You Do It To Your House.
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#137 Australia falls significantly behind in building healthier homes, with moisture management being a critical factor that most builders aren't addressing properly. We're joined by Jesse and Dan from Pro Clima Australia to explore how vapour-permeable weather barriers create healthier, more durable buildings compared to traditional foil sarking that traps moisture and creates perfect conditions for mould growth.
check out Pro Clima here...
proclima.com.au
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Live Life Build
livelifebuild.com
D Pearce Constructions
dpearceconstructions.com.au
QuoteEaze
quoteeaze.com/Free-Offer.html
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Taking a wet timber structure and wrapping it in aluminum foil and then expecting a good outcome is insanity.
Speaker 2:I really think Australia is behind the eight ball when it comes to building healthier and better quality homes.
Speaker 2:G'day guys, welcome back to another episode of Level Up. We have got another cracking episode for you today. We actually have two of the team at Proclimer Australia, and the reason we have these guys on the podcast today is because Proclimer has come on board as one of the major sponsors for my coming up Level Up experience with Dwayne Pearce on the 30th of May here in Brisbane. I tell you what it is going to be the greatest event the construction industry has ever seen. If you're into personal development, business development, building, science, healthy homes, there has never been anything put on like this in australia, I believe. Um, as on top of that, we're going to have a heap of trade stalls and demonstrations and, fifth, over fifty thousand dollars worth of lucky door prizes. So you do not want to miss this event. So massive shout out to. We got the guys here Jess and Dan from Proclimate. How are you guys? Good, not too bad at all. Yeah, thanks for having us. No, look, I can't thank Proclimate Australia enough for jumping on board and becoming the major sponsor for this event.
Speaker 2:Healthy homes is something I'm very passionate about. I haven't, uh, gone right down the the passive home path yet. I've done all my training and stuff, but I'm really focused on healthy homes and um. I really think australia is behind the eight ball when it comes to building healthier and better quality homes and um. So I jumped on the bandwagon with pro climber after doing a lot of, having a lot of conversations with Stewie Shelton and also Hamish I think you guys know Hamish pretty well as well. I know him and for me it's just a no-brainer Once you understand it, what works, I'll never put anything else on a house ever again. Jesse, you're the why guy, dan's the how guy, so do you want to talk a little bit about, um, why we should be using your product?
Speaker 1:yeah, absolutely so. I mean, I guess it's it's that point where you realize that there's a better way of doing things right. And and the same thing that happened to you happened to me, which was, um going through the history of how we build in australia and working out there must be a better way to make buildings that don't leak water, uh, they're healthy, they're durable, energy efficient. And that's when I started looking towards germany and then um working out how did they make the solutions work? And this all comes down to, yeah, the, the physics of the rain, the wind pressures, uh, climate, how you design for climate, uh all those you know really detailed sort of stuff.
Speaker 1:But, as I was um saying to you earlier, duane, that there's a um inflection point somewhere in australia where it's turning from a cold climate into a warm climate. And the interesting part about you guys in southeast Queensland is that you're somewhere around that zone of hey, I'm not sure if we're cold Like it's quite cool in winter, but it also gets stinking hot in summer. But I think the thing about proclimbing what we do in the southeast Queensland region or the subtropics, is the weatherproofing and the amount of rain that you get. And that's where Proclima comes in with awesome weatherproofing solutions, and once you understand it I think which we'll hopefully go through in a bit more detail today then you can't really go away from it.
Speaker 2:It just makes sense. Once you know it, you can, can't change. It's just, you'll never go back to doing things the old way or all the way that a lot of people are still doing it. But, um, dan, do you want to tell us a little bit about the the how like, why we, why we should be using proclama when it comes to the hair?
Speaker 3:ah, for sure, and I think, like the house is very important because it doesn't help you at all if you have a sports car and a p-player driving it. So, um, for specifically, I think you can hear like I have a german accent, so myself I'm from germany, I'm a german master, carpenter, construction engineer, and which is something which doesn't exist. So this construction engineer thing is the guy who is actually responsible inside for the practical part, for the application, and you need to practice the background. So it means kind of you can just really apply the sciency part what jesse was talking about if you really understand his part and for me also understanding the builders part and combine it on the building side to actually get the outcome you wanted to, or your plan for your design, for yeah, I think it's something that's really important.
Speaker 2:And just to go back, I guess what Jesse was mentioning about the weatherproof layer like I was led to believe through my whole apprenticeship in the first well up until a few years ago, that your cladding or your brickwork was your weathertight layer, and understanding that it's not and how the whole, all the building science and the breathability and all this stuff behind, and then I think for me, the the big push for me to know more was definitely the condensation and the mold. Um, and I know from my point of view that come from us doing a lot of refurbs and big renovations and pull it when you pull apart a house. I think it's the best way to learn is when you pull apart a lot of refurbs and big renovations and pull it when you pull apart a house. I think it's the best way to learn is when you pull apart a part of house, you can see what's failed and what hasn't worked.
Speaker 2:And so I hear so many builders, uh, all the time saying, oh, I've never seen moisture in house. We do renovations, I pull things apart. It's not wet, but you've got to look for signs. And when you start looking for signs, you can see that there's been moisture in the home and the insulation's been wet, or there's the signs of wood rot because of moisture on timber and there's signs of mold on the back of plasterboard and backs of claddings and those types of things. So for me it's that whole understanding how the house is supposed to perform. And on top of that I think it was um stewie from shelton group that actually uh informed me of just how much moisture is produced in a average home with four people in it, just with day-to-day living, and what that sort of stuff's never like. It's just never been on my radar, I've never been told so. So how has your product helped with that sort of stuff?
Speaker 1:So going back to your first part of your question, or first statement, I should say, where you were led to believe that the cladding is a weather-tight layer. I don't think you're alone, because there's people at building codes level that still think that. So we're trying to change that and get the information out to the market to understand that the cladding will never be weathertight. And even if it is, when you install it with a whole bunch of goop in all the joints and everything else, it's got a limited lifetime until all that cracks up and it's going to leak water behind it. So that second line of defense, typically called sarking, which we don't like that word, particularly in Southeast Queensland, because when you think of sarking, what immediately comes to your mind?
Speaker 2:The shitty old foil mate.
Speaker 1:Correct, and that's not what we want to talk about. And that's not what Proclimate does, because it's not vapor permeable and the vapor permeable weather barriers or weather-resistive barriers, what we call it which is essentially where the sarkin goes, goes on the outside of the stub frames. Typically, if that's wind tight, it becomes water tight, and we have very detailed application procedures for that to make sure that that is all very well implemented. So that's the external moisture side. But then we're talking about the internal moisture which you alluded to, which was the water vapour generated by people inside the house. And that's when you start getting to the interior vapour control systems, or more specifically, the Proclimate IntelliPlus system, and that is designed to stop water vapor diffusing into the wall systems and potentially condensating within the insulated stud cavities.
Speaker 1:Essentially, um, so you guys up in southeast queensland, or queensland in general, love the, the timber frame right, the, the old queenslander style home. So, um, yeah, that's. You know typically what we do we protect that timber, frame it. But then dan, so if dan, then Dan, so Dan's the guy that can tell you how all that works in detail yeah, so, dan, do you want to fill us in on that?
Speaker 3:oh for sure. I think it's also interesting to mention is the history of buildings also, because I think, like the really old buildings, they haven't had much problems because the old Queenslander building is normally have gaps and cracks everywhere, so you always have a consistent airflow. But back then you haven't had also air con units, so you maximum we had a fan. So it means you actually didn't create many problems because the house was so leaky. You just live with it that internal temperature always equals external temperature. But from the moment normally we start to put in insulation and crank up the aircon unit. This is when we have temperature differences between inside and outside. This is when we actually start to create problems, and that's what Ocesi meant like. This is where we want to understand the climate we live in, if it's more like a heating climate or a colder climate, and specifically as a builder, it's very important also to understand that way he's building, because you can't in a tropical area, you can't just build. Um, no, I lost my track.
Speaker 2:what I was trying to say before you um, I'll let you get your train of thought back there, dan, but like I'll just jump in there for a minute, like I, I guess it's because I've put a lot of time and energy in and talking people and learning more about this stuff. But how? Because I'm putting a lot of time and energy in and talking people and learning more about this stuff, but how I explain it to a lot of builders now when they ask me questions. And I actually explain it to our homeowners when they come to us now, because I make it very clear from the very beginning that this is our standard now, like proclimate and a cavity batten system and with custom flashings and a breathable cavity around the home is how we build, and so I'm. I am not going to be the cheapest builder, but I guarantee I'm going to build you a good home. But I explain to people that, like, if you're not, if you're unaware of what you're doing, which most builders are, and tradies over time.
Speaker 2:So, like you just said, older homes were full of leaks, so they so. Because a lot of builders say, oh, we live in an old home, there's nothing wrong with it, it's fine and it probably is fine. But then over time, like, obviously, we started like manufacturing's gotten better. So, without builders being so aware or aware at all about it, we started putting better windows and better doors into homes, which has then started to seal them up more, and then they brought in this sarking. So then all of a sudden we're putting this, this building wrap around these buildings, which is sealing them up even more, and then they bring in a code change that shoves insulation in those walls.
Speaker 2:So, like over the last 20 to 30 years, we've been going from houses that had a lot of like leaks and cracks and breathe to slowly just sealing our houses up more and more and more, without us being aware of it, to a point, like you said, then you go and throw air conditioning in those sealed up boxes, you change the temperature from inside to outside and all of a sudden you've got issues with mold and condensation, and so I think it's it's like. I think people need to be aware of that whole journey, because that's all. If you're just going to work every day, you're getting a set of plans, you're building a house, you're throwing in windows, you're putting cladding on it and you're not considering any of this stuff, you're not going to know any different.
Speaker 1:Absolutely. This is what I've talked about in the past, which is the cascade of intervention where you start with well, hang on, we need energy-efficient buildings, we need to insulate them. So then you start insulating, changing the temperature dynamics of the walls and the roof systems, so one side gets hotter or stays warmer, warmer, one side gets cooler or vice versa, in summer the cool side and keep the air conditioning on the inside um, and then that changes all the dynamics and the surface temperatures in wall or roof systems and potential for moisture condensation or um moisture accumulation. But then, going a step further, like you're saying, air tightness. And a question for you, duane, is is people moving towards more airtight buildings in southeast Queensland?
Speaker 2:Mate, I'm not sure. I went and did all my passive house training and passed and got all that. I think there's a handful of passive home builders in Brisbane. It's not something we get Like. I've only ever been asked for one passive house and and it didn't end up going ahead.
Speaker 1:Yeah, um, but but without yeah, without specifically talking about passive house, just acceptance that an airtight building retains the cool air in summer as much as it does retain the warm air in winter. There's no point in taking an old Queenslander house with 10mm gaps in the floorboards that's three metres off the ground put an air conditioner in, all the cool air falls straight through and you end up with a veil of a shower of cool air when you're standing in the carport below. Yeah, that's completely energy inefficient. So I guess the and I'm going back sort of 10 years in my career when I was working, or more working with CSRO trying to work out where the benefits of air tightness actually lie. And the benefits of air tightness lie in the southern states, where it's really cold but also where it's really humid. Because if you don't keep the humid air outside your building in summer, then it comes into your building and the air conditioner has to pull out all that humidity and that becomes really energy intensive. But that humidity coming in also creates potential for condensation and mold growth. So managing all this and balancing all these um different criteria is not an easy thing.
Speaker 1:But going back to the cascade of intervention insulation yes, okay, we need to make it. Air tightness to stop all that and more airtight to make stop all the moisture coming through the systems and going where we don't want it to go. And then it's like, okay, we've got more airtight building. What about indoor air quality? Okay, we've got to have some indoor ventilation. So how do we do that? Through louvers? Well, no, the louvers aren't airtight. Okay, so then we go to a continuous mechanical ventilation system to provide the fresh air.
Speaker 2:So you start moving along a trajectory on the building code that is pointing something towards looks like passive house yeah, yeah, it's um, and look, it's something that we all need to educate ourselves, like tradies and builders and and homeowners like I'm actually finding, especially with the healthy home stuff, like we're getting an incredible amount of inquiry, um, since we've been going down that path, but it's like most things, like the clients are more educated than what a lot of builders and and tradies are, and so they, so they're asking these questions. But I like to dig deeper into things because I find like if a client comes to a builder and says, hey, I want a healthy home, and the builder only does one part of it, then they failed. Like to have a healthy home, you've got to have a complete system, and that's, I think, where a lot of our industry falls over. It's a lot of do a bit here, do a bit there, and it doesn't really all fit together.
Speaker 1:And that key thing is what you said system, but thinking of the house as a whole system, not just a weatherproofing system, but the house with all those overlaying features, the weather tighteners, air tighteners, ventilation, insulation systems. It's a whole system that works together.
Speaker 2:Yeah, dan, can you tell us a little bit more about, like the on-site stuff, like how does all this stuff work when you actually get to saw it, and um, because it's a bit to know yeah, it is.
Speaker 3:And the funny part is also like when you hear the first time from it, you got the question from the house owner or for from the client to actually build a healthy home or energy efficient home. Then you have builders who trust to the minimal just to get to satisfy the customer. And then you have builders like you and like Stu and so many other builders who actually dive into it. And then, specifically the first half of the year it's a very, very steep learning curve and the feedback I got a lot is kind of the first half of the year is very depressive because you learn so much and then you think back of all the work you've done in the past. So it means the first half of the year you have a lot of worries and sleep at night but because you can't unknow what you know what you said before. So it means kind of you have to go through all the stuff. But then after a year, one and a half, then the confidence comes back also. And the confidence comes back also that you're actually really on site. You apply the materials, the products, you change your systems from the old school traditional building style and you actually change bits and pieces, for example, not having direct fix gluing. And the funny part is, of course, you just sell a millimeter on the inside and a millimeter on the outside, plus a few tapes, but this is actually not where the story stops. So, specifically, of course, you just sell a millimeter on the inside and a millimeter on the outside, plus a few tapes, but this is actually not where the story stops.
Speaker 3:So, specifically, when I do my practical trainings, it's easy to say, yeah, yeah, this is how you should build, this should be your wall builder.
Speaker 3:But from this first moment when you hit a corner or when your wall hits the roof, then we talk about details, and this is where it's very important to support all builders and that we work together, that you actually have standard solutions like details for all these internal and external corners, for all these potential problems.
Speaker 3:And also I share lots of tips and tricks. And this is where I would say my experience working in Germany as a GP for 20 years comes in handy, also because I realize very often I have a fundamentally different way to see ticks and think about it. Very often I'm wearing black and white, so I don't mind to cut pieces out and remove them because I think later on it's going to be way faster and more efficient. And very often it's a lot and very often you can also change bits and pieces, but having battens on so that the counterbends actually long run actually overlap the membrane because the membranes can't be exposed to UV. And a simple detail is like in the old days, we just overlap the sark into the gutter, but you know exactly how it looks like after a few years because sun hits the membrane of the sarking and this disintegrates. These are all small steps, which is important to actually create a durable installation of our products and the whole system.
Speaker 2:Yeah, definitely. And, like I said, we've been using Proclimate for just on or just over two years now and every job we're learning. Stu's probably got sick of me ringing him and checking in on things. I send him pictures and he sends me pictures back. I love it. The big thing now is getting our whole team involved, like educating our team on why we're using these products. Um, like the proclimer.
Speaker 3:But where you go, you're right, you're going I just want to mention something because, like, it's important to see the whole story, like the why and how they belong together. And and I see, like Jesse had this idea from the beginning. Even before I started, jesse always had this idea like we need something to tell the whole story. And you came to the event also that Jesse wrote the Australia Study, which I always recommend to really everyone to read, and because, like, the first eight chapters are actually the why and the last chapter it's not because it's just one chapter, but it's a big chapter is actually the how. And when Jess and I went on the roadshow also, we had two presentations One was the why and the other one was the how. So all these presentations are also available on the Proclamer YouTube channel and the document you can download for free, of course, at the Proclamer website. But I think it would be interesting to ask Jesse what your thought process was behind, because I think it tells the whole story of Australian building.
Speaker 1:I'm going to go back a step. I'm going to ask Dwayne a question Are you a nerdy builder or a practical nerd?
Speaker 2:I would say a practical nerd.
Speaker 1:Oh, really, I like asking people that question. I consider myself a practical nerd, um, so I do nerdy stuff like write australia studies which have a lot of um, uh, technical detail and pretty charts and graphs and. But in the back of the australia study there's also a whole section on what people are doing around Australia, including some of the people you would be networking with Dwayne, like Hamish White and Matt Carland in Melbourne, and a lot of people from New South Wales and Brisbane as well. But that study is aiming to outline the science and then actually show that it can be built, it can be done and this I think in Australia there's always been this chasm in the middle of the builders and then the designers, the nerds.
Speaker 1:You know the architects and the engineers and it's like, well, that can't be built. But these guys don't really know the architects and engineers don't really understand the practical side of things and the practical guys the builders don't really understand the. The architects and engineers don't really understand the practical side of things and the practical guys the builders don't really understand the sciency side of things. So what we're trying to do is meet in the middle and go well, actually we need an army of um practical nerds and an army of um nerdy builders and they can work together as a we, not an us and them sort of scenario, and then we can get really good billings.
Speaker 2:Definitely Look. I definitely recommend anybody that hasn't seen or heard about or read the study that Jesse's did go and check that out. So that's available on the Proclimate Australia website.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's downloadable from the Proclimate website. Go to resources page and you should be able to find it. But yeah, it's not a short book. There's quite a few pages in it, but worth a read. How long did you wrote on it? How long I took about 4 years in between everything else.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's one of those things I think you have to. So what we see, or what I see happening now I'm not sure how many pro client builders in um, southeast queensland are using proclimate, but we get builders drive past our sites. They reach out and like what's? What's that blue stuff? I see it seeing you post some videos about it, like what are you talking about? And so there's a lot of people out there that are interested.
Speaker 2:We get a lot of homeowners that reach out from our social media say, hey, what's this Proclimate product you're using? But the very first thing that everyone asks is cost, like how much that add to the job? And in the last two years my answer on this has changed a lot. It started out by saying, look, it is more expensive than the old foil crap that we've been using, but it's a far better product. Um, and then we would have some conversation with that, whereas now the first thing that comes out of my mouth if anyone asks me is it's not about the cost. We are adding so much value not only to that house but to the people that live in the houses lives we're. We're creating a healthy space for them, and to me that's priceless.
Speaker 2:So I think a lot of builders like we talked about this a little bit before we started recording. For me, it's about coming up with a standard that my business builds to and selling that to my clients. It's not about what the client like. If a client come to me and said, oh, we need to save some money, you need to take that product out, then I'd say, oh, look, we're not the builder for you, because that's how important it is to me. Now I want to make sure I'm using the right product on my homes and I even put my blue shirt on today because they're blue profiler.
Speaker 1:We'll give you some iron-on logos for it first, um, like it's, it's.
Speaker 2:That's the sort of barrier we need to get over, isn't it? Because it's like anything like. Yes, it is a little bit more expensive than the old foil stuff, but the foil is crap, but it's. We're not comparing apples to apples, are we?
Speaker 1:Absolutely, absolutely. It's creating or comparing the bottom of the barrel to the best in class and, like you mentioned, which I like, but if I ask you the question, what's the value of your health? What is the answer? Well, it's priceless. Correct, it's priceless, so do it. Yeah, and it does come down to that, but it's all around moisture and then, ultimately, the mold growth. That's. That's what we're targeting in terms of healthy, dry, healthy buildings, and every house I've lived in australia, up until the one I live in now, is got moisture somewhere in it and mold somewhere in it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and it's just. I think it's becoming a lot more like more and more people are getting aware of it now, because they're obviously they've obviously the science now is showing that a lot of health illnesses are because of mold. So people are starting to ask the questions, Like I'm pretty close to Zara Dakota, I've done all her training and her program and she's spreading awareness now about what mold can cause in your arms and the illnesses that can be contributed to it. So it's putting this information out there, isn't it Constantly talking about it, getting it in front of people so that people don't have a choice but to go down the proclimate path and build a better quality home.
Speaker 1:It is an awareness. But to give you a bit of an example, my wife is German, so I've got a bit of insight. Daniel's German, but when I speak to my wife and Daniel will tell you, I'll pass over to Daniel. But the acceptance of Mons in the German culture, what happens in Germany?
Speaker 3:in the German culture. What happens in Germany? You sue the landlords or you know definitely it's a completely wrong use of your place. So there are two reasons you really know it's a really bad building or you never, ever, open your windows and doors. So there's one or the other, but there's no exceptions at all.
Speaker 3:Yeah right, so if you're renting a house, you can sue the landlord if it's got mold in it if you can prove that's, if you can prove that's actually a structural problem like thermal breaks or leaky windows, yes, of course. But on the other hand, of course you have a problem if you just never open your windows and doors. You have an aquarium and specifically if you live in an all-or-building, they have thermal breaks everywhere, specifically corners, and then you have an aquarium and you don't heat and cool properly and you don't properly, you don't heat properly, you create cold surfaces and then you have mold yeah unbelievable yeah so australia?
Speaker 2:I feel like australia pushes back because everything come like. I don't know this is only my opinion, but a lot of our industry is driven by larger volume type builders and it's so driven by cost and I personally believe that whole conversation needs to shift from cost to value add. Like is having the cheapest home, like the home you can afford, actually the best thing for you and your family? And if we educate more people on what is actually happening inside their homes, they're going to start to ask questions and they're going to want to know what's actually happening in behind the walls and how it's affecting their health Absolutely.
Speaker 3:I think this is where the reason changes with moulds and oofy is interesting, which I think you should yeah, I was thinking exactly the same thing, because I you read the building code right, right, brian yeah, yeah, well yeah, yeah, I mean, you'd be well aware that, um, in the last revision, or 2022 revision, the word mold was mentioned in the health and amenity section of the building code.
Speaker 1:so for the first time ever, in the body of the building code of Australia, the word mould is mentioned. So therefore, what's happening in Germany, where you go back and sue the landlord because he got mould, is a potential, real future for Australia too, because it means you didn't comply with the minimum code compliance.
Speaker 2:I think that's something that all builders and tradies need to get up to speed on, because once they start mentioning those types of things in our building codes, we are responsible.
Speaker 1:The thing is with energy efficiency you miss a bat in your wall and get a cold spot. Does anyone ever know? Not really. But if you start getting mold, mold somewhere, you see it and it becomes visual. And as soon as it becomes visual, then it becomes a problem and and the first thing people complain about is aesthetic defects right, uh, so so it's what you can see. But if you can't see and it's hidden, then then you've got a real insidious problem.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I like the way You're right, you go Dan.
Speaker 3:I'll just say maybe you want to be more precise, chess, because I think we have a lot of listeners who are more practical. So like you can really say, like what's the mode index of free and how you actually can evaluate what it is, because I think it's always on the listeners the listeners.
Speaker 1:They actually want to know how to solve it, or what's the starting point, so that, um, okay, going back to being a nerd part, right? So, using computer software um, woofy, uh is a german based software you can use this software to predict what's actually happening in that building structure. Uh, so this is a design phase, engineering, architectural phase of a building. So how actually do I layer those insulation layers with the vapor permeable membranes and vapor control layers? And while doing stuff funky like putting insulation on the outside of the building, which some high performance builders might be doing, then it changes the whole dynamics of that system and where you'd like, where you're likely to get mold growth or high humidity, condensation and mole growth.
Speaker 1:So the mold index in the building code is actually, uh, calculable. We're using the woofy software and it's got stated this limit of mole growth index of three and it's like, okay, well, so what? What does that mean? This calculable index of three actually means going back and following the research back up to um, up to europe. Then you find out that that is actually 10 coverage, coverage of mould on a surface. So literally, if you've got more than 10% coverage of mould on a surface, then you could be liable for some sort of design failure and that will be interesting how that goes in the future.
Speaker 2:And if there is any um anyone contesting that, I guess yeah I think we've um, we've done the wolfies on a few of our jobs now and where it's something else that we're trying to push architects, designers to, to add to their process and just make it part of their standard um set of documents.
Speaker 2:But it was definitely an eye-opener for me and I was quite surprised how much detail they went to.
Speaker 2:Like we had to go backwards and forwards and tell them exact build up of the wall and where we're going to have bracing, ply and all those types of things.
Speaker 2:And just to see like for me as a builder again, just to be able to see in a document how like I don't know how you have a four wall cabin or just a small cabin see the difference between the floor, the walls and the ceilings. Like you're using the same sorts of products but you might change one. Like there might be bracing flow in one wall and on another wall there might be, might be a anicon on the roof but but not on the walls. I can just to see how all the numbers change. So it's definitely something that builders need to be more aware of and I think the only way to make someone more aware is for them to see those documents and to see how the change is actual, how what they're doing affects the numbers but one thing is like where we talk, go back to the practical part is which you do the movie, because you want to know what the long-term outcome is.
Speaker 3:and mold wise most times we have significant mold issue before even the building is finished, because our frames are exposed for a way too long time to wind and weather. And I don't have to tell anyone who is actually building houses. We just talk about sometimes days and weeks and then you have the first mold spots on your bottom plates or yellow tongue, whatever it is, and you see it more and more in the market also because mold is a building code. People are afraid of mold. You can't actually accept anymore for a building getting wet, for a building staying sitting in the rain for like three months plus it's already too long. Even three weeks is actually too long. So it means also like we just kind of have a bit of a glass kugel. But it seems like we definitely will change and we have to change the building sequence and we really say like, okay, we actually want to seal up our building ASAP.
Speaker 3:And this is where our products come in place again, of course, like because you really want to frame as fast as you can and you want to wrap your building as fast as you can to keep your building dry and I know that a few builders, like in Tassie, they post quite a lot about it.
Speaker 3:They're actually putting fans up because they know the frame got wet during the construction phase. I don't know if we have to go to this extent, but I still think it's good to be very cautious about moulds. They're putting fans up and in general moulds don't feel very comfortable if it's a very drafty area. But the awareness on the market Australia-wide is getting more and more that we really have to keep our frame mold-free too and quite often also like a lot of your customers and Sarah's customers, they're actually very aware of the problems of moles and very often the customers had actually issues like Estmar and Jesse might say something about Estmar in Australia. So it means to build a new house and then they have a site visit and then they see the mouldy bottom plate and everything else and happy about it and I had it a few times. Then actually the house owner asked the builder to replace the bottom plate because it was mouldy yeah.
Speaker 1:So I think the traditional approach or the old school thinking, if you like, and the she'll be right mate attitude that you get in Australia and maybe even more so in Queensland, I don't know, but taking a wet timber structure and wrapping it in aluminium foil and then expecting a good outcome is insanity.
Speaker 1:I'm wrapping, you wrap your veggies in aluminum foil after you've chopped them up and you put them in the fridge. Right, you don't wrap your house in aluminum foil because it traps all the moisture. It's a hundred percent vapor barrier. If it's in the timber structure, it's going to stay in the timber structure and what causes mold to grow is a food source, ie timber, the correct temperature and humidity, and then you've got mold growing. So if you get rid of that humidity and you allow the structure to dry out, then you're going to reduce the risk of mold. And that's why, even in the climates like southeast Queensland and moving further up to the wet tropics maybe not in the wet tropics, but further up north than Brisbane still vapour permeability is a good thing, but if it is any wet timber it will dry out.
Speaker 2:Yeah, no, it's definitely again, it's just something that builders and traders need to learn about, but I'm not sure if it was the thing I went to with you, Jesse, but were you talking about? It's like when you go hiking, you either buy a shitty jacket or you buy a good Gore-Tex jacket. Was it you that was talking about that?
Speaker 1:I don't know whether it was me. I don't use a Gore-Tex and that's what I want. It might be Dan.
Speaker 2:Well, dan might have been Dan, but I've heard it somewhere on your stuff, yeah.
Speaker 1:No, I love the Gorotex one. It's simple Keep the water out but allow the water vapor to escape. Essentially, and that's the magic of the membranes magic, the science of the membranes, the scientific magic of our membranes, which is actually weatherproof, like water barriers to liquid water, rain, but they're actually vapor permeable and they're doing this without any holes punched through it, which they do in the really old, archaic vapor permeable foils. It's literally aluminum foil with nail bricks all through it. But ours are 100% water barrier, so they've got no perforations in them and that's how it allows the building to dry. So, essentially, like you're saying, like Gore-Tex, because you don't want to go for a run in your raincoat plastic raincoat, right yeah, It'd be absolutely terrible inside that after you're sweating in it.
Speaker 2:Well, I think it's a good experiment for builders and traders to go and do mate, go for a jog with the old yellow raincoat on and then put a pro climber, wrap themselves in pro climber and go for runs. Yeah, it works. That's interesting. Now, look, guys, I really appreciate your time. Is there anything else you want to get out to the listeners about your product before we jump out of here?
Speaker 3:I'm always happy, like, we have new events so we might do at a chat with Stuart about, might do some practical stuff on the stands, and so everyone come in and have a play. We will have some boxes so we can do some taping, which is mainly about a practical education. Not not education, but experiences. There's heaps of documents and videos online Videos not yet, but documents, application guides. I really recommend everyone for the firsties using our products really have a look into the application guides, because the product is just as good as the install and if you install it to the old way, which is code compliant, it works. But if you really want to have the outcome, then install the programmer way and you definitely will significantly improve the performance of your building.
Speaker 2:Yeah, awesome. What about you, Jesse?
Speaker 1:I mean, dan touched on it as well. We've talked a bit about membranes and the membranes themselves, but what Dan said was tapes and how to tape, and really that is one of Proclimber's world-leading technologies. It's a technology that we sell that seals all the membranes together. So the Tescon Xtora on the outside, tescon Vana on the inside, these tapes are the best in the world world so non-water-based adhesive, which means that they stick in any conditions and literally to to wet surfaces. So come and find out about our tapes, our membranes, um, yeah, that they are really like you said. Once you use them, you can't go back. So, and I've also heard that you got some, um, pretty big guns coming to your event.
Speaker 2:Uh, global big guns, yeah, mate yes, so we uh look so, but this whole event is about rising the level of the industry. So my whole purpose in life now is to create a new building industry and, um, look, no offense to anyone, but I just I think, if we leave it up to our politicians, our governments, our associations, it's like we're seeing it already. It's too late, like we've already. I'm not sure you guys probably might have your own opinions on this, but, like so many other countries around the world have dealt with the problems and are so far ahead of us and we should have learned lessons from that. Yeah, and I feel like we're only just starting to sort of see the tip of the iceberg of the issues that are going australia is going to have, and so the whole reason I'm uh, like this event is not only to get people running better building businesses, better trade businesses. It's to get people understanding. Like I don't see, apart from you guys, there's a lot of good builders in tassie and down in melbourne that are talking about this sort of stuff, but we're not putting people in front of the industry that have the experience and the knowledge and are passionate about this stuff, and so, yeah, we've put a lot on the line.
Speaker 2:Um, we've teamed up with matt risinger. Uh, I'm not sure for people that don't know matt risinger, go and check him out, but I would say he's probably the world leader in building science, maybe, um, and then on top of that, we're bringing paula baker-leport. So she's been the world's leading healthy home expert for 30 or 40 years now, so, um, number one best-selling books when it comes to healthy homes. Uh, number one best-selling books when it comes to creating healthy homes. And and, uh, like, one of her best books is called prescriptions for a healthy home, because she believes that you, actually you can avoid all your prescriptions from your doctor if you actually live in a healthy building. Yeah, so so, um, yeah, we've pulled some big guns out, uh, as well as a lot of really big, world-class aussie speakers, um, and then also guys like yourself that have got behind the event to showcase products that are going to take this industry to the next level.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And so, yeah, I really appreciate you guys getting behind the event and I think you guys and Matt Risinger and Paul go hand in hand, so it's going to be really good to see you guys there and get everyone speaking together and asking questions. So, yeah, I can't thank you guys enough for getting behind the level up experience and being the major sponsor.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think you're absolutely right with the um, the building codes, and push them from the bottom. Uh, we need people like you that are showing how it's done and promoting it, uh. So it's a push and pull in my opinion. So the, the pull from from you guys at the top and a push from the bottom, uh. So I'm still working on code, still working on standards. That bar has to be raised and we need you guys to show how it's done so that I can point to you guys and say I got hey, building codes board, do what they're doing yeah, well, mate, well uh, I would recommend getting uh like, if you can't, you're coming up, jesse, are you?
Speaker 1:uh, I think I will. Yeah, I'll be up there. I'm looking forward to meeting um the crew and um catching up with uh matt reisner and his boys.
Speaker 2:I ran into them at the uh at fierce fond two years ago in in uh, texas yeah so that was, that was good well, mate, I'd, uh I I'd recommend trying to get some time with Paula and having a conversation with her. So she's actually been instrumental in getting Building Codes in America upgraded. So she's a powerhouse. She doesn't put herself out there a lot on social media, she leads a pretty quiet life, but when it comes to people's health and how that relates to building, she's an absolute powerhouse. So, yeah, definitely get a conversation going with her.
Speaker 2:But, um, guys, I look forward to seeing you up here. Look for all and everyone that's listening, tickets are selling really quickly. So, uh, you need to go to the duanepeircecom website, grab your tickets. There's three different options there, um, and you help us create a new building industry. Come along for the day. Get in touch with the guys at Pro Climber, come and touch and feel and see what these products are about. Talk to the guys, learn about these products and you can see the value that you'll be able to add to your clients, not only with the quality of the build but the quality of their life. So, guys, thanks for your time, really appreciate it and can't wait to catch up on may 30th and you keep doing what you're doing.
Speaker 3:That's great. Yeah, keep going.
Speaker 2:Thanks to angie cheers, guys appreciate it.
Speaker 1:are you ready to build smarter, live better and enjoy life?
Speaker 2:then head over to live like buildcom forward, slash, elevate to get started everything discussed during the level up podcast with me, duane pierce, is based solely on my own personal experiences and those experiences of my guests. The information, opinions and recommendations presented in this podcast are for general information only, and any reliance on the information provided in this podcast is done at your own risk. We recommend that you obtain your own professional advice in respect to the topics discussed during this podcast.