The "Level Up" with Duayne Pearce Podcast
I take on the role of an authoritative voice that fearlessly communicates truths drawn directly from my lived experiences. With a genuine sense of ownership, my insights are free from any hidden agendas – they truly belong to the audience. My stories and journey add remarkable value, the key now lies in harnessing its power effectively to help others.
My purpose is to create a new residential building industry. My mission is to inspire unshakable self-confidence in my colleagues in the industry, empowering them to orchestrate prosperous, enduring, and lucrative businesses that bring exceptional projects to fruition for our clients.
My goal is to foster a deeper comprehension among clients about the identity and functions of builders, redefining their perceptions.
The "Level Up" with Duayne Pearce Podcast
People First with Gerard Rennick, The real Facts, Science & Data.
GET YOUR TICKETS TO THE LEVEL UP EXPERIENCE HERE - https://duaynepearce.com/events/
#140 Senator Gerard Rennick discusses the challenges facing Australia's building industry and the underlying issues that contribute to an industry in dire need of reform.
check out Senator Rennicks page here...
https://www.aph.gov.au/Senators_and_Members/Parliamentarian?MPID=283596
Check out Duayne's other projects here...
Live Life Build
livelifebuild.com
D Pearce Constructions
dpearceconstructions.com.au
QuoteEaze
quoteeaze.com/Free-Offer.html
GET YOUR TICKETS TO THE LEVEL UP EXPERIENCE HERE - https://duaynepearce.com/events/
I'm hearing from builders a lot and it's one of these issues that, as you become a little bit more known amongst the community, I'm hearing from more and more builders about these particular issues and the cost of building.
Speaker 2:I do believe, when it comes to the building industry, we need to get politicians or decision makers on the ground, like having round table discussions with people that are doing this stuff every single day, because there are so many ways that we can reduce cost in our building industry.
Speaker 1:Do? Do you have to deal with federal laws as well as state laws as well as council?
Speaker 2:laws Building cards yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, three bloody levels of government for a country the size of 27 million people, our industry.
Speaker 2:There is so much room for improvement and so many areas that can get more efficient, which I believe will bring the cost of housing down. G'day guys, welcome back to another episode of Level Up. We are back in the shed today for another cracking episode, and I must say I don't get nervous too often doing a podcast. I'm a little bit nervous to be speaking to the guests we've got on here today because today we have our first politician to have a chat to, and a lot of you guys will know because you reached out to me and you kept sending me links to posts that our guest today was posting, and I follow him as well and I'm very passionate about what he does. So a big warm welcome to Senator Gerard Rennick.
Speaker 2:How are you, mate? Yeah, good thanks, dwayne. How are you Very well, mate? I really appreciate you taking some time out of your busy schedule to come and have a chat. You're welcome. Obviously, we didn't get a real good result on the weekend, but I'm sure we'll keep pushing on and see what happens. Yeah, mate, I love your passion. You're all data. I love seeing your videos on social media and you're just facts. I think that's what we need in politics, isn't it? Yeah, facts.
Speaker 1:And I think that's what we need in politics, isn't it? Yeah, absolutely. And we need it in the politicians themselves rather than the bureaucracy or anywhere else, because the problem with politics is it's driven by emotion and fear rather than facts and figures. And, unfortunately, I think Australia is all the worse off because of it, because many of the colleagues that I used to work with, or other politicians they don't have the skill set to sit down and analyze data and, as a result of that, they have to over rely on their bureaucrats or their staff, many of whom half their age and have come through university with no real life experience themselves.
Speaker 1:And we saw that on the weekend with the Liberal Party, who you know I can speak from experience because I was inside the, the parliamentary wing for five years effectively had no vision for the country. You know. They had a few tepid economic policies, but nothing of structural, serious structural reform, and in the end, people ended up going back to Albanese as hard as that is to believe just because he exuded more confidence and he did, do you know? He offered some discounts to HECS and some other measures that were going to make a difference to people in terms of cost of living. So yeah, I mean, we really do have a lack of knowledge crisis, if you want to call it that, inside the parliamentary wing of Parliament House.
Speaker 2:What's your opinion, mate? I see like even in the States, and that we've seen it over the last probably 10 or so years, but there seems to be a big influence now in a lot of elections on young people and it's it worries me because they they get sucked in by like one or two policies that sound great to them but they don't know the full behind the scenes or the full story of it. But there's all these other policies that actually mean a lot more and will help the country, but they get sucked into these little ones that and I feel like there's a lot of politicians out there that that's how they get in, because all these younger voters that don't really have a clue really like what's going on.
Speaker 1:Well, look, I think you've been a bit harsh there on the younger voters. Look, I mean there's a range of knowledge, you know, and across all age groups. Some younger voters are well-educated and well, when I say educated, educated in politics, in terms of they know what the various parties stand for, and others aren't. I mean, you know, I've had people in their 60s and 70s ask out a vote and not understand the difference between a lower house green card and an upper house white card. You know the difference between preferential voting and optional preferential and things like that. So I'm very reluctant to make generalisations about any particular.
Speaker 1:That's why we call the party I'll lead people first, because I don't want to start slicing, you know, the human race up by various attitudes, age, you know, gender, race, whatever. I think that's one of the easy things that many of my colleagues do is that they love to start the the, the conquer and divide. Um, you know things. So look, uh, you know, and, and look, the environment's a good one, right? I mean, you know we're all worried about carbon dioxide. You know heating the planet, or supposedly, uh, but you know we focus just on carbon dioxide whilst ignoring the impacts of, you know mine, lithium mining, rare earth mining.
Speaker 1:You know building. You know lithium mining, rare earth mining. You know building. You know wind turbines, or whatever, and knocking down the tops of mountain ranges to put up wind turbines and the consequences on the bird life, et cetera, and the bat life. You know bats are a very big pollinator of plants, as you probably know. So you're right, like it's very easy, it's called framing, as a matter of fact, and it was when I lived in New South Wales. I did a political campaigning course and went for nine months, the first Saturday of every month, for nine months, and you know, the first thing we were taught about was framing, and you frame on your strengths, and then you sort of try not to talk about the other issues. And that's what. Yeah sorry, go on.
Speaker 2:I was just going to say I'm very keen to talk to you about the sustainable stuff because I love again how you speak about all that. But, like you just said, how is it sustainable when you're knocking down forests and clearing mountains? And the infrastructure they have to put in to build these things to start with is just disgraceful to the environment.
Speaker 1:Oh, absolutely. And this is yet again. When it comes back to the framing, the alarmists I'll call them climate alarmists don't focus on the damage that you're doing to the environment, and yet they've got everyone transfixed at this carbon dioxide. They call it poisoning or a toxin or whatever, but yet that's part. The most renewable form of energy is photosynthesis, converting carbon dioxide and water into sugar and oxygen. And if you did your biology at high school, you'd know that, uh, and yet somehow you know something that you know is naturally produced.
Speaker 1:I think there's 800 billion tons of carbon dioxide produced, so that's 8 by 10 to the power of 11 um produced, uh, by mother nature every year. And mankind produces about 30, 35 billion tonnes of it. So a small sliver, about 4%, wow, yeah, so it's. You know the Earth's emitting carbon dioxide all the time, even without us, even without us, absolutely. And there's a sink. So and here's one of the things I've picked up in estimates over the years the biggest carbon sink on Earth is actually photosynthesis in the sorry photoplankton in the ocean. Uh and um, that's not even included in the net zero model. So the net zero models are only based on land use. Uh, you know what's what's absorbed on the land and what's emitted on land. So they ignore the fact that you know your biggest carbon sink is actually offshore in the ocean, ie photoplankton.
Speaker 1:And it was a good article in the abc just after the bushfires in 2020, where it said there was a photo plankton bloom in the southern ocean as a result of the bushfires. All that smoke got blown out to the southern ocean, ended settling up, you know, in the ocean, and then the photo plankton bloomed and it's no different to when it rains. We have your grass grow, you know. I don't need to tell you if you're living up here. Uh, you know, it grows, grows when it rains. In the summertime, the grass just grows at a rate of knots. You know you're mowing every weekend. Well, it's the same. We have natural stabilizers in our earth anyway that will deal with increased levels of carbon dioxide.
Speaker 2:So what's behind them pushing all this renewable stuff? Because, like, I don't know, I'm definitely not up to speed with all of it, but like, from my little knowledge that I have and the I guess common sense, to me it just doesn't work Well look, I'm of the same view.
Speaker 1:I mean what's behind it, you know? I mean one of the things we talked very early on you're not allowed to do in the Senate is impute motive. So call them saying well, you're trying to, you know, destroy the planet or, you know, destroy the energy grid, or something like that. Look, I don't know. Well, look, I don't know what was behind it initially. I know what's behind it now is that a large number of people are involved in the renewable industry. So a lot of people out there, you know and I call them rent seekers are making a lot of money out of this. And so you know that's what's behind it.
Speaker 1:It's just like financial planning industry now, whereby you whereby, once upon a time, people, if they had savings, would pay off their mortgage and then they'd put money in a bank account and earn money on their term deposit. Now you're forced to put your money into superannuation. There's all these rules around super. So you've created a whole new battalion of financial engineers that, yet again, we don't need. Prior to 1992, people just we don't need. You know, prior to 1992, people just saved for their own retirement. If you didn't have enough assets, you'd go on the pension, but ultimately you took responsibility for your own savings.
Speaker 1:Today we have $3 trillion in superannuation under management, just in industry and retail funds that are managed by other people that you know in Sydney and Melbourne, in the ivory palaces of Sydney and Melbourne, who, basically you know in Sydney and Melbourne, in the ivory palaces of Sydney and Melbourne, who basically you know, don't take any accountability if they lose your money, but they're skimming out $30 billion a year in fees out of superannuation. So that's another industry that's just, you know, come from nowhere in the last 30 or 40 years. That didn't exist once upon a time. But you know, good luck trying to kill it, because when you're up against 30, $40 billion in fees, you know, and this money, you know, goes to these people and then they use it to fight you back. It's very hard to, it's going to be hard industry to. You know. Curtail similar to renewables.
Speaker 2:A little bit off-topic, mate, but have you heard of a book called the Creature from Jekyll Island?
Speaker 1:Yeah, I've read it. Yeah, yeah, I know it very well. Yeah, yeah, I understand. Yeah, that's the monetary system.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah. Or just when you're talking about how they've set up these new businesses around super and stuff. That just takes me straight back to that book and how everything's had a bit of a oh.
Speaker 1:I can give you a whole episode on that book if you like.
Speaker 2:Well, we've only got a limited amount of time, but, um, I've talked, I've mentioned that book a few times on the podcast and a few people reached out and said, holy shit, like that was eye-opening. But, um, it definitely changed the way. It probably played a big part in opening up my mind to how I look at renewable energy and yeah, and super and money and all that stuff. But yeah, um, it really does blow my mind. But with the like, the people that are, uh, getting behind this renewable energy and that sort of thing and think that it's great, like I don't know, do they overlook all the clearing of the forest and all the other stuff that has to go into to actually be able to build that? Um, those farms and the turbines and all the other things that are the, all the other things around the planet that are getting destroyed to produce that? I guess.
Speaker 1:Absolutely. They deliberately overlook it because it doesn't suit their narrative. It's that simple and that's why we lack ethics. Australia and many Western countries have a real ethical crisis in their leadership ranks, not just in government but in private industry and right across the board, and we saw that. I know we don't want to go here, but we saw that with the COVID crisis when people were being injured by the vaccines. It doesn't matter what you think about vaccines, people were being injured and gaslighted. And that's probably another thing when I went into government.
Speaker 1:The lack of quality assurance If you get it wrong in your industry, if you get it wrong, you know you can be sued. Quality assurance, capital management, quality assurance are king, right, you have to maintain safety standards or you'll be sued. Even if you're sued and you win, you'll still have your reputation damaged In politics. It's not you, it's not you on the line, you and this is what what I where I sort of got off the you know sort of 18 months into it. I think you know I had my epiphany there where I just thought you know, we are destroying people's lives here through what we do and there's there's no one, there's no conscience, there's no conscience in politics that goes you know, know what we're doing. Is this right? And that's what really annoys me is that everyone is just fighting for the here and now and trying to score that political point for the 24 hour news cycle, instead of actually looking down the track and saying, well, how's this going to help our children in the future? And that's what we did in the 80s. I mean, I look back now. You go back to.
Speaker 1:You know, the monetary policy. Keating lifted capital controls in 1985, and he basically said we're not going to stop private banks in Australia from borrowing money from offshore. So yeah, from a financial point of view, that's similar to an immigration point of view, whereby the government just said we're not going to have immigration controls. Now, if the government said that, people would be down in Parliament House with pitchforks saying you know, this is an island, you've got to have immigration controls. We just can't have people coming in willy-nilly. But that's what we did in our financial markets in 1985. Yeah, and that then you know the four major banks at eight billion dollars in foreign debt in 1985.
Speaker 1:By 2008, they had 800 billion dollars in foreign debt. That money was just lent to australians to buy houses. So you just inflated the price of a house. But here's the thing it wasn't tied to someone's earning capacity or savings capacity the older generation we just inflated the bubble. So if you've got a couple of boys and you're not paying five bucks a week to rake the lawn and they go to a comic book shop, the most they can pay is $5 because that's all they've got. But if you turn around and lent them 20 that comic book, they could pay 25 for the same comic book. The comic book doesn't isn't worth any more or less. Uh, but they've now got, you know, four weeks of debt rather than no debt and that's what keating did I mean in the old days.
Speaker 1:so for your listeners, I used to work at the bank of queensland. When I was there I was a treasury accountant there. For every million dollars we'd lend out to a house, only $400,000 came from Australia the $600,000,. We'd go and tap the foreign capital markets the other $600,000. So that was as a result of what Keating did in 1985. So if he hadn't have done what he'd done, we would have only been able to lend the $400,000. But that $400,000 comes from older generation savings.
Speaker 1:So what we were doing, what used to happen before Keating just let go of capital controls, was that the price of a house was tied to someone's, tied to our savings, and it was a virtuous cycle whereby the older people would put their money in a term deposit the bank had landed on to the younger generation. The younger generation pays the interest back to the bank, who pays it back to the oldest older generation, so that the money stayed within the over half the money that you pay on interest on your house is going offshore, tax-free, I might add, because there's a section in the Tax Act that says foreign banks don't have to pay tax on interest they earn here. So we are just bleeding money offshore. And it's similar to the renewable industry, right? Yeah, 70%. So we are now shutting down our locally sourced coal. We won't touch uranium, so we won't touch nuclear. We've sold most of our gas reserves offshore, you know it fine and and we now import foreign-made renewables that are 70% owned by foreigners. So what's your?
Speaker 2:view on all the like. Australia has so much resource, what like. What's your view on what's going to happen in the future? Like? I reckon we're going to get to a point where we're going to have to start buying the ship back and it's going to cost us more money.
Speaker 1:Well, we are buying it back and we're going to have to start buying the ship back and it's going to cost us more money. Well, we are buying it back. I mean, we're at the point now where we've got to buy gas back because the state, you know, queensland, and Well, queensland has got a gas reservation policy now, but we sold a lot of the gas offshore without any, because back when you know, we just relied on coal. But of course now we're not building any more coal-powered fire stations, right, coal-fired power stations. So, and the other thing is that New South Wales and Victoria excuse me have a moratorium on drilling for gas onshore, so we're no longer drilling for gas onshore either. So Queensland's exporting most of what they, you know, get out of the ground. We do. I think we do have a recently Cenex or someone had to do a gas reservation policy. So we, we are doing that now, but we we do it in manufacturing as well.
Speaker 1:I mean, that was another 1985 decision, the button plan that allowed manufacturing.
Speaker 1:We lifted tariffs and said we can't compete anymore in manufacturing, so we're just gonna let it go. Well, the it wasn't that we'd let it go offshore, we just got rid of all tariffs. And the problem is, it's good that we do buy cheaper goods and services, but that's only good provided we're paying our own way. So if we eventually and this is the problem you get to the point whereby eventually, if you're not producing the goods and services that you're importing and you're not making something here to pay for it, you're borrowing the stuff to pay for it. So we're going backwards that way. So what's worse is if we produce it ourselves and buy it ourselves, yet again we go back to that bank situation where at least keeping the money in our country, but when we go, well, we're not going to build anything anymore and suddenly we stop generating income on ourselves, but we're still importing goods. The money we do make out of the mining industry, for example, just goes back offshore because we spend it all offshore.
Speaker 1:We're not reinvesting it into our own country or further. And it's not just a financial transaction, it's also a skills-based transaction. So we've de-skilled our country now and now we have to rely on immigrants to come in and do the jobs and a lot of those skills we've de-skilled our country now and now we have to rely on immigrants to come in and do the jobs. And you know, and a lot of those skills we've gotten from people you know whereby. So I was born in 1970, my sister was born in 1964. When she graduated in 1981, so she started high school in 77, she started with four classes in Chinchilla. By the time she finished in 1981, in grade 12, she was half a class because all the men left school in grade 9, 10, 11, 12 to get apprenticeships, whereas today most not all, but the majority of students go on and get down to university, they get a degree and then they come out and they're financial planners or something. They're being financial engineers instead of mechanical engineers or civil engineers.
Speaker 2:So we're not actually maintaining those skills that will enable us to add value here in this country mate, I think the skills thing I'm not I'm not sure a hundred like on other parts of australia, but here in southeast queensland, like I've I've run a quite successful building business and the um like and I have a training business that helps hundreds of bills across australia, new zealand, and single builder I know. Every trade I know is screaming. Every single person I know in the industry at the moment could easily employ another one to probably three people. Yeah, and we can't get them. Apprentices are like we used to put an ad out for an apprentice and you'd get a couple of dozen references. Now we put one out and you're lucky to get one, and nine out of ten the only way they come through is if a friend of a friend or uh, something like that.
Speaker 2:But like we're, we're in that scenario now. Like we physically cannot keep up, like every builder I know cannot keep up with the amount of work they've got on um. I know a few bigger builders that do a lot of volume work like two, three hundred homes a year. Yeah, they are almost at stand stills because they can't. There's no land getting released so they've actually got no land to build houses that they're selling on. Yeah, and yet we haven't even started building all this infrastructure for the olympics yet.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and they're trying to tell like I hit, see all these things that they're trying to say that we're going to need an extra 38 000 workers each year for the next 10 years to be able to keep up with the number of houses we need and stuff. I don't know where they're coming from. We haven't got them now. So where are they all of a sudden going to appear from? Yeah, that's right, and I think you mentioned it before we started recording. Like a lot of immigrants that come in are skilled but they don't necessarily make it to us, like they um, like I hear lots of stories that they end up on these big um like infrastructure projects and things and that's no good for us yeah, well, that's a good point, because this is where renewables bring renewables back into it.
Speaker 1:So there's about 10 000. So we've got half a million immigrants. That's come back down to 380, but it wasn't that long ago. We had half a million for the 12-month period. Of that, only 10,000 came in on the 482 visa, which I'm led to believe is a building visa.
Speaker 1:But the point is, the number of houses built in Australia fell, despite the fact forget relative percentages and everything despite the fact we had supposedly 10,000 more tradies in the country. So the question is why is the number of new houses falling? Now there's obviously issues like builders going bankrupt and that, but I'm hearing too that a lot of these people coming in are building, going on these renewables projects. So they're actually that's part of the reason why we've actually got a housing crisis as well is that a lot of tradies are actually going on these building on renewable projects. So I've heard of 300 Filipinos coming in and building the transmission line between South Australia and New South Wales around Wagga area. So they're now pulling the trades. As you say, we've got a dearth of trades because not as many people do an apprenticeship anymore anyway, but the guys that are coming in aren't actually coming in building houses. They're building transmission lines, wind turbines, solar farms or engaged in lithium mining or something like that.
Speaker 2:And we can't compete, mate.
Speaker 2:I actually know a couple of Sparkies, a couple of Concreys, that are working on the I think it's a big wind farm out near Warwick now and so the money they get out there is double to triple what they get working in the building industry building homes.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, as long as they keep pushing to do that work, people are always going to chase the bigger money and that's just going to put more pressure on us which is going to drive the cost of housing up, not down. We've actually seen a big spike in. We employ our own team, so we've got quite a large team of carpenters. We do a lot of work ourselves and we've seen a lot of pressure in the last six months on us having to keep, uh, putting our wages up for our team because otherwise they just keep, we keep losing them. Yeah, um, and like when I tell the homeowners like we got a homeowner at the moment that's, um, quite a large businessman and he, he's in the know and he wants, he likes knowing things, we have some good conversations and when I tell, tell him the rates and what we're paying carpenters, concreters, electricians he just falls over, yeah.
Speaker 2:Like how is that sustainable? Yeah, I'm like, well, it's not. But if people want houses built and I need to employ them and I've got to get the work done, that's what.
Speaker 1:I've got to pay.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's right. Yeah, which is, yeah, pushing the price of housing up.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and so that's the thing. We do need to change the mix. As I mentioned before, with superannuation, $30 billion worth of fees there, there's a lot of people working in the finance industry that don't need to be working in the finance industry. We need to strip that right out. Get rid of poker machines. I read an article a couple of years ago. There's something like 200,000 people in New South Wales work in the poker machine industry.
Speaker 2:You know when.
Speaker 1:I grew up in Queensland we didn't have poker machines. I'm not against poker machines in casinos you have a few casinos and whatever but you don't need them in every sporting club or every pub, right? But yet again you've got these people sitting there. Then none of this stuff's value add. Child care industry it's not value add, you know. Get grandma to look after the kids with your family and friends. You know it's academia, so many more people are going to university and so you've got you're not just training more people to do those, you know, becoming economists and those sort of soft skill jobs that aren't adding value. You're taking another four years of their life working career. So you know, on average, you might work. So, let's say, 40 years. You graduate at 18 and let's say, take a couple of years off, backpack and whatever. But you know, on average let's assume it's a 40-year working life If you're wasting another four years at university, that's 10% off your working career. So you know these are the things where people are falling behind. Yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's unbelievable, it. I get frustrated when I see, um, like we keep coming back to the renewable stuff, but like power has gone up, like everyone's power bills are costing more. But as a builder, like it makes my blood boil, like when I think back. Like uh, 26, yeah, 20 years ago, when I was an apprentice 26, 24 years ago, yeah, and like houses were so much more simple, like we didn't everyone just had what they needed. It like might have been a double garage, might have had two bathrooms or maybe a bathroom in an ensuite. Every room had one sort of baton holder in the middle. Like the fittings and the fixtures were very basic, yeah, and, but everyone loved it. Everyone loved their homes and everyone enjoyed it, whereas now, like we build homes and it's it's nothing.
Speaker 2:To have over 100 downlights in a house, yeah, right, and so it's. It frustrates me when I see people complaining about the cost of their power bills. Yet everyone wants the entire house air-conditioned, everyone wants three bedrooms, three garages, multi-purpose rooms, they all want two ovens, two or three ovens and all the flash shit in the kitchen, but then just something like as simple as lighting, yeah, like if you've got four down lights in every bedroom. Like, even though they're leds and they're supposedly using less power, like you've got three to four times the amount of lights that we had in houses only 15, 20 years ago. Yeah right, yeah.
Speaker 1:So I don't know if politicians dig this deep into things, but well, I mean I, I, I am aware I know there's there's more, higher standards now around the type of glass you use insulation. I'm so led to believe there's now standards for ndis whereby you've got to have a wheelchair access. Is that correct? You've got to have wheelchair access in every house.
Speaker 2:All houses now have to be built for future, so wider doorways, less thresholds inside and outside, so wheelchair-friendly bathrooms. So, depending on the type of job and whether it's renovation, new build or whatever, but you're supposed to have at least one accessible bathroom. So I don't think that's a bad thing, but I do think it's a little bit like on a new build. It doesn't add any cost if it's thought about at the beginning, but where it does add cost is, uh, like renovations and things, if these things are getting added along the way and they become variations. But, um, I don't think that's a bad thing.
Speaker 2:The glass thing is thing is a frustrating one, right, Because even with the like, every house has to have an energy efficiency test done on it. Yeah, and if you just go with the tick and flick model, they're not getting the best outcome and nine times out of ten they're assessing the entire house as one block. Yeah, whereas if you pay and that energy efficiency test might cost four to six hundred dollars, it's just a tick and flick type thing, but it makes it ticks all the boxes and you get your house approved. Yeah, whereas if you spend two to three thousand dollars and you get an actual like you talk about with data and science. You get someone to do an energy efficiency test that actually takes into account north, south, east, west, sun west, sun up, sun down, overhang shading, all those types of things.
Speaker 2:You might end up with double or triple glazing windows on one side of the house and the rest of the house might be able to go back to single glazing and all those types of things, whereas the tick and flick box that everyone does just puts the same envelope over the entire house, which is adding cost as well, because we find we talk our clients into going with the better energy efficiency tests and we're actually finding that we're taking things out of the house, yeah, that they're not needed. So there's a lot of efficient like our industry. There is so much room for improvement, yeah, and so many areas that can get more efficient, which I believe will bring the cost of housing down, yeah. It's just that I don't know how you get involved in these discussions. I do believe, when it comes to the building industry, we need to get politicians or decision makers on the ground, like having roundtable discussions with people that are doing this stuff every single day, because there are so many ways that we can reduce cost in our building industry.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, yeah, and look, I know it's a state government that generally tends to make the laws, but it's an issue federally as well, because the cost of housing is. We need to build a lot more new houses very fast to deal with the immigrants that have already come in, notwithstanding. We should lower the immigration rate. But, yeah, it's a real issue and I'm hearing from builders a lot and it's one of these issues that, as you become a little bit more known amongst the community I'm getting. I'm hearing from more and more builders about these particular issues and the cost of building, so that's a real concern and it is like it's across the um.
Speaker 2:It's, there's, there's not just one thing. Like so many things affect our industry. Like we, we're very big on data and tracking data and, like um, through covid, yes, there was a lot of price increases and materials and stuff went through the roof, but no one was talking about, like transport and deliveries and the cost of diesel and stuff. And yeah, like we, we went on an average, like most of I shouldn't say average, because most of the jobs we do are more higher end. But, um, like we went from, say, an average delivery. Uh, most of our deliveries used to be between, say, 110 and 160 dollars and it really didn't matter what it was.
Speaker 2:I was just working on volume, yeah, and then by the end of covid, like it was nothing, for that same 110 dollar delivery was all of a sudden four to six hundred dollars. Like we're paying if we want to bring a pallet of tiles up from from melbourne. Yeah, those deliveries went from sort of six or seven hundred dollars, some of them up to three thousand dollars. Yeah, right, and so there's all these costs. Obviously, that all get passed on.
Speaker 1:Yeah, um, but in the building industry there seems to be there's a lot of people all grabbing a piece of the pie um, well, well, yeah, yeah, yeah, I mean there's a lot of people, that's a lot of industries, but just as a, can I just start. So how long does it take you to build a house from scratch, so just a standard house? How long would it take you to build a standard house and how many people would it take builders would it take to do that? Assuming so, and I'll split that into two parts. One, so, and I'll split that into two parts One, getting all the approvals and regulations from the council. Step one, so you know you're ready to start building. And then step two, to actually build.
Speaker 2:If you're talking like, if you talk just an average, say, four-bedroom, just an average family home, from the client choosing the builder, the design, getting all the approvals, like that approval design phase can take anywhere from three to six months, yeah, right. And then if it's a, if it's a build efficiently, you'll build it in six months. But, um, and to build the house, by the time you add up all the different tray, like if we're just talking to people on site physically building the house, yeah, um, on most of our jobs, mate, there would be close to probably 80 to 100 people on each home.
Speaker 1:Wow Over that six, but not consecutively for six months. That's including plumbers that might come in for a couple of weeks and then yeah electricians.
Speaker 2:So there'll be days where there's eight to 12, 14 people on site. Jeez, if you're at a roughing stage and you've got the plumbers, the sparkies, the air con, it's easy to have 10 to 12 people on a site, yeah right. But if you add up across the job, all the trades that are involved to build a house, it's probably in excess of 100 people.
Speaker 1:Yeah, right, okay. And so what's your? Yet again, your bog standard four bedroom, two car garage. What's the cost now? Could you get built for less than half a million?
Speaker 2:You can still build houses for less than half a million, but you won't get a lot of house, right? So one of my other big things which I'd love to talk to you more about at some point I'm really pushing for builders to be separated. So at the moment, builders are just all thrown in the one one hat, right? So whether you're a one-man band that builds one or two jobs a year, whether you're a builder that maybe has a team of 15 to 20 blokes turns over 10 million dollars, whether you're a residential volume builder, whether you're a resi builder that does multi-rise, whether you're a tier one that does high-rise commercial, like, we're all in the one box. Yeah, and um, I believe that volume builders or maybe I think it should be, say, um 20 million, any builder that turns out more than 20 million should go and play in the big field. Yeah, and all of our smaller builders that are more custom builders, family run businesses and things. We need to be separated. Yeah, Because we all at the moment, we all have to deal with the exact same rules, regulations and again, you want to talk about the cost of housing.
Speaker 2:If we like, I'll put my hand up. We do not comply with everything we have to do and if we tried to, it would probably add another 15% to 20% to the cost of our builds. If we were to comply with everything, we would have traffic control on most of our jobs every single day. One day of traffic control on a job site is $2,000 to $2,500. You add that up over a six-month period, it's a lot of money. And so Work Like a Thousand. Safety says that any time we have a concrete pump, a concrete truck, a crane, a delivery, we're supposed to have traffic control on site. Yeah, right, we don't do that. We do it in certain situations, if it's near a school or main road or whatever. Yeah, but there is no way in the world that I can afford to do that and there's no way in the world my clients would pay to do that. Yeah. And then you've got all the safety stuff that we're like we.
Speaker 2:I believe we run a pretty tight ship. Like we, our employees are number one. We want everyone to go home. Safety, and we do go out of our way to make sure they're safe. Yeah, but again, I'll put my hand up we, we definitely there's things that we do in our job sites that aren't meeting the rules. Yeah, um, I'm old school. I think there's a lot of common sense play on in my business. Yep, I also believe that a lot of safety has gone overboard and it's actually causing more accidents. Yeah, like when I was apprentice mate, like you, you walked around the top plate of a three-story building and you just knew you had to. You had to be safe, you had to think about what you're doing, you had to be organized, you had to make sure you had someone working with you, whereas now everyone just expects there to always be a handrail, always be a platform that they, if they fall, they're going to land on. Like, yeah, um, so again, I could bang on all day about this stuff yeah, so I plan for every contingency.
Speaker 1:It's like the wheelchair access in every house, like you shouldn't have to build one unless you actually decide to buy a house and you're in a wheelchair. There's not 20 million people in this country that's going to need a wheelchair, so why build houses for 20 million people with the potential that they may have a wheelchair? But that's what they do, right? They're always trying to suit, and this is not just in the building industry. This is the problem with bureaucracy when it gets out of control, right, it's a hammer looking for the nail. So this is the problem with bureaucracy when it gets out of control, right, it's a hammer looking for the nail. Yeah, so of course that you know they go into work every week. We've got. You know they create a rule last week and they've done that. Now they've got to find another rule, and that one that one's just a classic example. You know it's um, can't imagine how much extra that costs I got a call.
Speaker 2:There's a new um, some guys up here in sunshine coast have started. It's called the Good Builder, it's like a media type company and they're putting out good news articles about the industry and it's. I think it's fantastic and they're getting good results. But they rang me up around I think it was around January or something. There was a new policy that come out of about. There was some grant that I wanted to give out to apprentices yeah, and they rang me up to see what my thoughts were on it and it was supposed to be aimed at trying to. They've done some stats and I think it's come up that a lot of people are leaving their apprenticeship by the time they finish their second year. Yeah, and so they.
Speaker 2:I forget the name of the grant, but they're trying to bring this grant in to encourage people with dollars to hang around and finish their apprenticeship. And they asked me what my opinion was and I was like, well, number one, it shouldn't just be given to them. Because, yeah, like we really struggle with apprentices, like we can have an apprentice, they change it all, like in the old days we used to have to give them the tool ounce and nine times out of ten bosses would go and meet them at the tool shop. We'd load them up with everything they needed and we'd pay for it and all that sort of stuff. But now you're seeing apprentices get to the end of their time and they've still only got a nail bag and a hammer. They haven't spent money on what they the rest of the team on site, because they're using all their gear, yeah, and so I don't know.
Speaker 2:I piped up and I said, well, the best thing you could do would be to do a deal with the employer that they can supply them the gear they need to be able to do their job adequately. Or I said, even better, do additional training for them, because a really bad thing in the building industry and and this is why I'm so passionate and why I have my training business now because I've done all the hard yards, I've been through the shit To get your builder's license you only have to do a three-day business course and so you can be. There's a lot of. There's towns of incredible builders and tradies out there that can build an incredible product, but they don't know how to run a business. And that was me, yeah, and so I feel like I'm not sure if you're in this part of it, but politicians a lot of the time are throwing money at our industry to encourage people to get into it, but the people that are in it don't know how to run businesses effectively or efficiently. Yeah, they don't understand their data, their numbers and all that type of thing. And that was me Like I was in that cycle for 10, 12 years, nearly went bankrupt three times before I woke up to myself.
Speaker 2:And it's only from spending a shitload of time, money and energy on personal development and learning more that I'm addicted to it. Now I just want to know more. Yeah, but again, even in that side of things, there are so many areas that the government could help out to add efficiency. That again would help reduce the cost of housing. Yeah, it's, I don't know. I could talk your ear off all day about it. Yeah, mate, can we go back a little bit just before we wrap it up to like how did you get into politics? Because you're a very passionate person and I'm pretty blown away by your knowledge.
Speaker 1:Look, it's a long story. Well, I say it's a long story, I guess it's a story of my life. So I'll just start with the beginning. Born in Chinchilla 1970. Went to high school in Chinchilla before finishing a tournament for two years, got a Bachelor of Commerce at UQ, went back to Dalby for three years, then went overseas for what I thought was two years, came and ended up spending seven years overseas. So from the age of 23 to 30, I was overseas, had a ball over there, came back and worked in Brisbane for six years with the Bank of Queensland and when I was there I actually started off studying biochemistry, hence my interest in the biochemistry, the mRNA vaccine. But then the bank said to me if you're going to study, you got to study finance. So and that just happened to coincide when I was given the role of treasury accountant at the BOQ. So from there I got a master's applied finance and then went to Sydney where I worked for Westfield and and they Bank of Queensland had about five subsidiaries, westfield had about 800. So I was fascinated by this. So I went, did a master of tax law down there.
Speaker 1:So it was when I was doing my master's of tax law at Sydney University one night a lecture. They were talking about this thing called the public offer test, and what it said was was that if you issued a bond in the primary market, you wouldn't have to pay withholding tax. Now, the average Joe Boyle on the street would not have a clue what that means, right? But what it meant was was that the only people that issued bonds in the primary market are either big banks or big companies, right, and the sort of people that pay withholding tax are foreigners. So I knew straight away that that meant that foreign companies don't have to pay tax on the interest that we pay them. So I'm thinking my mum was still alive. Then I'm thinking, well, hang on, mum pays tax on her interest. We all pay tax on our income, but foreigners don't have to pay tax on income they earn here. And that just really put a bloody bee up my backside. So anyway, long story short, as I looked into it further, throughout that whole masters of tax law, the entire tax act, as we talked about earlier, the renewables industry, you know monetary policy. It favoured foreign investors over domestic investors. So it's very hard to compete with a foreign company if you're an Australian company. If the foreign company is only paying half the rate of taxes, you are yeah Right, because they can charge less, right? So I guess that was when I thought I'm going to have to do something about this.
Speaker 1:And now I lived in North Sydney, so that was in Joe Hockey, he was the member for North Sydney. So I joined the Liberal Party and, you know, over a couple of years got to know him Well, not know him, know him but you know, had the opportunity to speak about it to him and when I was trying to explain it to him it just went straight over his head, you know. And I just realised, well, god, this is a shadow treasurer and he doesn't get it. And I realised I can add value here in running for politics. Anyway, long story short, and it wasn't just that, it's, it's the entire, like the tax act is just full of loopholes. It's so bad. But so when we came back, we had our first son in Brisbane, and then my wife lives just close to here, actually, or grew up close to here. So we came back to Brisbane, brisbane, and my wife's former employer wanted her to stay, keep working, and I was like that's fine, I'll stay home, look after the young boys. I loved bringing up the kids I still do and then I thought, well, I'll do something, I'll have a crack for politics while I stay at home and look after the boys. So I spent about three years within the Liberal Party just constantly going to every event to try and get pre-selected for the Senate. Long story short, I got did get pre-selected for the Senate and then I've tried to use my tech knowledge you know my knowledge in monetary policy and tax because I've learned a lot to the Bank of Queensland.
Speaker 1:This probably won't mean much to your listeners, but I brought in this accounting standard called IAS 39, which had to bring all the derivatives on the balance sheet. So when I said before about Paul Keating in 1985 opened up the capital markets and let all this foreign debt in domestic banks borrow US dollar bonds. The bonds are denominated in US dollars, so you have to switch them out into Aussie. So that means you're going to take out cross currency swaps and then the bonds are fixed. So then you've got to swap them back into variable, because most home loans in Australia are variable. Very few people fix. Some do about 20, 30% of the market fixes. So you've got all these risks cross currency swaps risks, interest rates swap risks, all this stuff. So we had to bring all those derivatives. So I understand capital markets and monetary policy as well.
Speaker 1:Um, so I guess that's that's my. You know, if I don't get back in, that's going to be the real frustration, because no one down. It's like you're saying about the building industry, right, unless you've come from that industry and you've obviously spent 25 years in it. You know, sounds like you know it very, very well. Um, well, that's how I feel about tax and monetary policy. Like I understand it and, literally, with the exception of one or two people, no one else understands it, and the shame about it is is that we are bleeding billions of dollars a year um letting money go offshore. I'll give you one example like in 2022, pfizer made 1.4 billion dollars in sales here on the vaccine right in australia.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yep, they transferred a billion dollars offshore to Ireland in royalty fees. Now Ireland didn't manufacture those vaccines, right. But here's the thing they got a billion dollar tax deduction here, so they saved paying $300 million in company tax. Now there's a withholding tax rate on royalties paid to Ireland of 10 cents, so we got $100 million of that back. So we lost $200 million. Ireland, because it has a company tax rate of 12 and a half cents, picked up 125 million bucks, and pfizer was 75 million bucks better off for doing a deal for just a couple of book entries. Right now.
Speaker 1:That's the sort of stuff that grinds my gears because we are encouraging profits to go offshore. And you know, if that wasn't so much big farmer, we don't have a lot of big farmer here here. But similar with BHP and Rio and Fortescue Metal. About a decade ago they'd set up marketing hubs in Singapore and they were paying Singapore these massive charges for marketing because Singapore had a company tax rate of $0.10. Now Singapore doesn't know a thing about marketing iron ore. They don't have iron ore in Singapore.
Speaker 1:But there's all these structures, and it's not just. You'll often hear a lot of the people on the left side of politics talk about how we're being ripped off with our gas and we're letting it all go offshore. It's not just gas, it's our entire economy. We are bleeding money, our earnings offshore, and then we borrow the money and if you know what a balance sheet looks like, you've got an asset over here and then you've got debt and equity. We're paying offshore all this interest, our earnings offshore. What we should be keeping is equity from the profit and loss statement and then we borrow it back as debt and then we pay interest on that, which then goes offshore. No tax on that either. I mean, we allow foreigners to buy water rights in this country but get a load of this. They don't have to pay capital gains tax on those water rights, because there's a section in the tax act that says if a foreigner owns a non-real asset, ie something that's not tangible, uh, you don't have to pay tax on it. Like, like, you can't make this stuff up.
Speaker 2:So um, and obviously all this is what's driving our tax up? Oh, absolutely, because we've got to cover all the you've got to cover it.
Speaker 1:You know the share of income tax is a percentage of the budget. Since when GST was brought in it's gone from $0.45 to $0.55. You know, and yet again that was one of our policies we want to lift the tax rate threshold to $40,000 because our view is if you get out of bed and put your nose to the grindstone you shouldn't pay. There's probably more to be honest with you, but you know it's like we tax low-income earners. You know, three and a half grand on $40,000, plus take five grand off them for super and they're back sort of below the poverty line again. And yet we'll let foreigners. You know. And they haven't. Yet again, when I've asked them about Treasury, about this and estimates, they've gone. All you know I asked them actually this bloke volunteered it. Actually I didn't ask this question specifically, so I think he knew where I was coming from. They haven't updated the tax treaty with Ireland since 1983, right, ireland's gone into the EU in 2000. They've lowered their company tax rate and the ATO does nothing about the big end of town. But they'll go after small business, chasing them up on little amounts of GST and, you know, really drilling our little guys while the big end of town and foreign-owned big end of town just gets away with it and that's so.
Speaker 1:That's sort of you know what drives me and why I ran for politics. But look, the big sort of why did I run for politics is I wanted to make sure our children get the same opportunities our forefathers gave to us. Yeah, and we owe it, you know, to our children, you know, and to our forefathers who gave us, you know, all of this wealth and built this country up from nothing to make sure that we pass some sort of form of wealth onto our children. And we haven't. I mean, you know, the last 30 years we let the foreign debt in, we've let our manufacturing go offshore, we've lost our skill base, we've privatised our infrastructure. Foreigners own that again, if not foreigners. You know super funds that you can't elect who you know, if you ever I mean with your super fund, you never get to elect who runs, controls your money, you know. Like that's just absurd, right? Um, so you've got all these yes men in the ivory palaces of sydney and melbourne controlling three trillion dollars of our money. You know, um, just unreal, it's unbelievable yeah, no.
Speaker 2:Well, mate, look, I really hope you keep your passion going and you keep doing something, um, and yeah, I just think it's great to see people like yourself. That, uh, I always remember, like growing up and seeing my parents and my grandparents, like, um, being passionate, like they all literally had a favorite politician. They loved them, yeah, but they would write they'd come election time and they'd be raving about them, yeah, and I've never felt that until I'm seeing you and like every time I see one of your posts, you can tell that you're the real deal, you're passionate, you you're um, and I think it's fantastic. I think if we had more politicians like yourself, australia would be a lot better off. So, yeah, thanks to one, I appreciate that.
Speaker 1:Keep doing what you're doing, man? Yeah well, I'm probably going to be out of a job in a couple of months, once my term finishes.
Speaker 1:But, anyway, I'll stay on the edges for a while and you know we'll see what happens. But yeah, it's sort of hard to let it go. Look, I mean, you know where I live, so I could quite happily retire from that point of view. But you know, the problem is what grinds my gears. You know, um, and I know that the, the current lot, you know I'll say and not and I'm not taking sides here the whole lot of them just don't have the solutions. You know, I mean, it's just a punch and duty show down there and I get politics. You don't have a bit of that, but it's all of it. And that's the problem.
Speaker 1:No one in this last election was the perfect example. No one's dealing with those structural issues to turn our country around and I just fear for our children. They're being swamped by immigration and they're not getting skilled. They're sort of being told that they have to feel guilty and all of this cultural warrior stuff that I don't particularly like. But at the same time I can't sit there and say, well, I'm not going to have my children told they should be ashamed of their country or the heritage, our heritage as well.
Speaker 1:I not saying it's perfect, but, as we know our parents made a lot of sacrifices to get us where we have today 100%, yeah, and to somehow sort of run down their efforts and not sort of make them. You know children, so I said this in my main speech. You know that Roman orator Cesaro said the greatest virtue of all is gratitude. You know it's the father of all other virtues and and we have to be grateful for what we've got, not not sort of scorn and tear down. You know what our parents and forefathers built up yeah, yeah, 100.
Speaker 2:I know you've got to get going, mate, I definitely could talk to you all day like you. Quickly, you mentioned before um, like people getting into trying to get the next press release or news media that in a 24-hour period or whatever. And that's something else that I saw growing up. Like politicians had long-term plans. Yeah, it wasn't just an overnight or a three-year sort of thing. Like they set things up to make the country successful for a long period of time. Yeah, and now it just seems to be that it's just they're there for their little bit of time and that's all they're focused on and whatever decisions they make, they don't care. The flow and effect of that I don't know if I'm.
Speaker 1:No, that's exactly right, there is. I mean, actually I was running that line. I was saying we're a party, you know people first is a party with vision We've got a plan for that vision, we have the know but you've got to have a vision, because if you've got a vision and you tell people where you want to be, that gives them hope and it gives them a sense of purpose. But too often now it's just like looking at the opinion polls and see where they're going, and the opinion polls is just a point in time and an opinion poll in itself isn't an outcome. You know, it's just a means to an end which tells you who's going to have the power, but you know they don't know what to do with it, and that's the thing. That's why we need to go back to people with having a vision. And you know, I mean I'm talking to a builder here but we, if I had to summarize what in one word, what we need to start doing again, it would be building, you know, and building those big infrastructure projects that we desperately need. You know big dams, big power stations, big base load power stations. You know ports, roads, like you know, like from where we are. I would love to build a tunnel from here out straight broke island. You know ports, roads, like you know from where we are. I would love to build a tunnel from here out to Stradbroke Island. You know they want to know how we're going to pay for the Olympics in Brisbane. There's 100 kilometres of Moreton Island, stradio Island. I know some of your listeners probably get offended by this but you don't have to knock the whole place down. You know just that coastline there and a tunnel east to west across Brisbane we could have like. Basically you know coastline from Coolangatta all the way up to Rainbow Beach, maybe not quite Winoosa. You know we've got to start utilising it and lifting the value and all of that sort of thing. So you know, yet again, tolls today, 2 million people in Brisbane paying five bucks a toll. 100 years of time It'll be. You know tunnels this is for tunnels only, not main roads Five million people paying 50 bucks.
Speaker 1:The government holds on to that stuff. That's how you pay. You know the state government holds on to it. That's how you pay for the recurring costs of schools and hospitals because as those costs go up, you naturally, just as your population grows through inflation, collecting more money from your infrastructure assets. That's what Biocca-Peterson did when he opened up the Bowen coal deposits and the Weeper bauxite deposits. When you open them up, you've got royalties from the coal, you've got charges from the trains, you've got charges from the ports as the ships came in to take them offshore. Three lots of recurring revenue to pay for schools and hospitals. Same for the bauxite deposits.
Speaker 1:Actually, leo Hilscher, who was the treasurer, said you can't export bauxite, you're going to have to only export alumina or aluminium. So that meant they had to build up those smelters at Gladstone. So they created an industrial town in Gladstone. I mean we need that type of long-term vision. I mean I love you know, I know it's a bit of an eyesore, but I love that Riverside Express in Brisbane that was built for $8 million in 1974. Can you imagine trying to get through Brisbane without that Riverside Express?
Speaker 2:Yet again, where's the vision to do that stuff? You know wyvernhoe dam, just you know, um, we, we haven't built a serious dam in this country in years. It's just alarming, seriously, we need to get you in on the weekend like I don't know, uh, like it's just. It's to me, it's just all common sense, yeah I know yeah, it just.
Speaker 1:But what it is? It goes back to the franklin dam decision in 83. Put put aside the decision about the environment, bob Hawke went to the high court and said basically, so the Franklin Dam had become a UNESCO World Heritage Site. So Bob Hawke said that if we sign a treaty the federal government signs a treaty, foreign treaty we can override the plenary powers of the states. Now it's the states that build everything, right?
Speaker 1:So anytime now the state government decides to build something, the, the Environmental Defender's Office in the state that we fund will go to the Federal Environmental Department and say oh, there's a rare frog there, you can't build it. And then under some treaty, foreign treaty you won't be able to build a dam because of some rare frog, and so nothing gets built. I mean, we saw that last year in New South Wales with a gold mine. A New South Wales miner paid $190 million to get environmental approvals to build a gold mine. Then it was disputed by an Indigenous person who the local Indigenous people claimed wasn't even from the area, and so they over-rid the state government to disallow the gold miner from starting that gold mine.
Speaker 1:But here's the thing the gold miner paid $190 million in regulations to the state government doesn't get that money back yeah, so it's kind of like you're trying to build a house, uh, and then you know, for some reason, you know, someone decides to take a dislike, until he goes to the environmental defender's office and then stops you from doing it. But you've already paid, you know, 10 million dollars in fees to the state government. You're like, well, you're going to give me my money back now that you stopped me from doing it. Yeah, and so we have all of this red tape, green tape, blue tape, you know, between multiple levels of government. That just makes it a nightmare. I mean, I suspect you probably have to deal with. Do you have to deal with federal laws as well as state laws as well as council?
Speaker 2:laws Building cards yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, bloody levels of government for a country the size 27 million people, I mean great britain's just under 70 million people. It's got two levels of government. New zealand has two levels of government. We've got three levels of government.
Speaker 2:You know, we just saw over government. It's insane yeah, mate, I could definitely talk to you all night.
Speaker 1:We'll wrap it up I know you, I know you gotta get going, but I really appreciate you taking some time out to um.
Speaker 2:Come and have a chat and we'll see where things go. Mate, I really hope you stay in it somehow and keep pushing what you believe in, because that's what we need. We need people that believe in things and, like you say, have a foresight of what's going to happen in the future. This country really needs people like yourself. Yeah, thank you, guys. Thanks for listening. Continue to make this Australia's number one construction podcast. Like, share, subscribe, subscribe all those types of things and, uh, look, depending on when this podcast goes out, if you haven't seen it yet, make sure you come to my event on friday, the 30th of may. It will be the greatest event the construction industry has ever seen, because we are putting the real people in front of you that you need in front of you to understand the changes that are coming into the new building code. Look forward to seeing you there. Are you you ready to?
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