The "Level Up" with Duayne Pearce Podcast

Building Better: Relationships, Homes, and Mental Health

Anthony Hickey Season 1 Episode 149

#149 Anthony Hickey from Two-Tone Constructions shares his journey from struggling carpenter to successful builder, revealing how vulnerability, mental health awareness and building quality above code standards transformed his business. His authentic approach to leadership and relationships has created a thriving Melbourne-based renovation company that builds primarily within his own neighbourhood.

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Speaker 1:

You're doing something that I haven't seen any other builders do, but you're creating a connection.

Speaker 2:

We are all about building great relationships, and so I've got a young family. We have no want or need to be leaving Yarraville anytime soon, so I want to be able to walk down the street with my head held high when the neighbours are popping out and I've built their house. I don't want to be looking down hoping they don't tell me they've got a hairline crack somewhere. I want them to be looking down, hoping they don't tell me they've got you know, a hairline crack somewhere.

Speaker 1:

I want them to be, you know, proud and happy to be seeing me g'day. Guys, welcome back to another episode of level up. We are back in the shed for another cracking episode today, uh, today's one. We're going to be talking all about, uh, mental health, business development and personal development, and today I've got an awesome guest for you. He's a cracking bloke. He's been a member of our Elevate community for quite a while now and he's had some massive improvements. So big warm welcome to Anthony from Two Tone Constructions. How are you, buddy?

Speaker 2:

Yeah, good mate. Thank you for having me. I must admit it's a bit of a bucket list here being here, so I really appreciate you having me on, mate.

Speaker 1:

I appreciate you flying all the way out from Melbourne to have a chat, so it's we're doing a group one after this. We got the godfather coming down from Gympie as well, so we're all going to have a chat, so that's pretty exciting. But, um, mate, tell it like before we get into the juicy stuff, like let's go back a little bit like how, how did it all start? How did you get into the building industry?

Speaker 2:

uh, yep, so I am one. What am I? I'm a third generation, uh, carpenter. So my grandpa and my dad were both carpenters. Um, ever since you know my first memories, I can remember smelling timber coming off my dad and him in Kaki, and I just loved it. I was building tree houses in the backyard on the apple tree when I was four or five years old, with nails and my old man's hammer, and I fell in love with it from an early age and I don't know, deep down I think it is sort of somewhat in my blood or in my genes.

Speaker 2:

So from there I obviously went through school, started my apprenticeship quite soon after finishing school and started a job there with a boss and a third-year apprentice, and I think I was with them for about six months, still getting paid I think it was $250 cash, I think. I asked about seven times when do I start school? And it was still coming and coming. Um, and, yeah, I mean the first day I started on that apprenticeship, or what I thought was an apprenticeship, um, I, they had me holding I know eight meter wide trusses with the apprentice on the other side and demanding me to stand on the top plate and walk them across and I was petrified and, mind you, I was climbing up you know double story frames in the new estates in our area when I was in primary school, like I love climbing but holding a truss and trying to stand up at the same time and you know, years down the track you actually realize you work well when you're working against each other.

Speaker 2:

So it does work. But I remember scooting on the top plate and them just giggling at me whilst berating or hazing me and so, yeah I I ended up giving up on carpentry, like I had a really you know pretty crap taste in my mouth and I did some personal training, became qualified personal trainer. I was still playing footy throughout those years. I really enjoyed my football.

Speaker 1:

You did pretty well with your football, didn't you?

Speaker 2:

Oh, I'm glad you asked. No, if I was a foot taller and a bag full more talented, I could have made a really great career out of it. But I was lucky enough to get into the VFL, which is the one under the AFL, and from there get recruited to play in Queensland in their state league. So I was only playing down at Redland Redland Bombers here, and you know, the universe works in mysterious ways. And by being recruited to come up here, I ended up meeting my now wife, who was on holiday up here, and now we have two beautiful children and, yeah, the rest is history. But yeah, footy aside, leaving that apprenticeship was the best thing I could do, because it's sort of the way that the universe has worked. It's got me to here.

Speaker 2:

But when I came back from Queensland with my partner at the time back from Queensland with my partner at the time, which was Gers, who I've now married I then went to work with my dad, who was a chippy who worked for a builder, and I still wanted to be a carpenter, but I just didn't like the builder I worked for at the time and I knew it couldn't be like that. I knew that wasn't everyone's story. So, yeah, dad took me on under the guise of the builder and I think for my first year I was pretty much sweeping the floor and watching and being told that I'm not doing things right. Even if I was sweeping, I remember he was telling me to push, not pull, or vice versa, and I was like the dirt's still moving, like I'm getting what I need to get done.

Speaker 2:

But dad was one of those and still is one of those incredible craftsmen. He really loved what he did, to the point I remember we had, you know, we've got all these fancy bubbles and lasers now, you know, to put a door jam in and we had everything there and we're like it's good to go. And dad still wouldn't believe it and so he got his plumb bob out. He and um, you know, had that going down to be able to measure off and it's that kind of quality control and you know it's a little bit old school but um pride in his work that thankfully, some listeners wouldn't even know what a plumb bob is.

Speaker 2:

Mate yeah, well, if I didn't work with my old man I don't think I would have either, but like he still has all these chisels from when he was an apprentice Like I'm talking no more than an inch little snub on it still. So, yeah, I had some great years with dad before the builder went quiet and then I went to another builder. I went as a third year to a company called Appetite for Construction, met them through the footy club I was playing at the time. The coach's friend was one of the directors, and Nick and Ed there. They were amazing and that's where I really sort of catapulted into running jobs and really started to love the craft.

Speaker 2:

And you know, I was at second half of my third year apprenticeship and they, you know, threw me a set of plans and said this is your job, look after it and give us a call if you have any questions.

Speaker 2:

The poor buggers, the poor buggers. Thankfully they were paying my phone bill because I just called them all the time, because I just didn't want to excuse the language, but I didn't want to fuck it up, but it was the best way and quickest way that I could learn and grow is, which is what I'm doing here throwing myself in the deep end. So I have so much admiration. I'm still really great mates with both of them. We actually just had we were subbing for them the last little while because we had a job that fell through so we had a hole to fill, and it's that kind of relationship that you create with great people and, you know, never burn bridges and um, yeah, so that's sort of where I learned, uh, my craft. And then, yeah, one thing led to another and I sort of went out of my own that's awesome, mate.

Speaker 1:

There's so much just we could unpack in the in that what you've just talked about for the last five-10 minutes. Relationships are everything, hey, in business. I'm a big believer that you shouldn't burn any bridges. The fact that you've been able to go back now and fill a gap with someone that taught you just shows how important relationships are. Otherwise, you would have to be fine or something to keep your team going for the time being, but going out on your own. How did you go from that step from being a carpenter to taking the punt to go and start your own business?

Speaker 2:

I think like a lot of like.

Speaker 2:

I love the podcast and so it's actually how I first found out about Live Life Build, which I'm a part of now and have been for two years.

Speaker 2:

But the stories that I hear on here is very similar to mine, which is I am and was a great carpenter I could run a job, I could make someone else money, but when I went out and so initially I went out with a business partner, maddy, who was actually an apprentice at the same place, maddy and I were together for a little bit before he was moving to Tassie, so then that was initially under his license, and then I became licensed and had my own sole director of the company.

Speaker 2:

But I just I didn't know my numbers and so we have an incredible rapport and relationship with all our clients that we've built, for I'm lucky enough to build, certainly now predominantly within five, no more than eight Ks from where I live, but there's seven or eight beautiful houses around my area that I renovated that we didn't make any money on and the only way that we continued was because I was still on the tools and I just put the extra hours in, and that's not the client's fault and they obviously want to only pay well at this period in, and they obviously want to only pay well at this period in time.

Speaker 2:

They just wanted to pay as minimal as possible to get as much as they can, which is what's standard for a lot of people and me, not knowing my numbers, if I needed to shave some money off to get the job, I did it back then and not knowing the consequences. Knowing the consequences, not knowing what an overhead was, um. So I learned, yeah, pretty, um, pretty quickly, uh, that I didn't have a clue what I was doing as far as the business side of things was.

Speaker 1:

There's a lot of people out there like I'm, the same. I can drive past jobs. We did in the early days that they basically got a free house yeah like it cost like I paid for that yeah, yep and um again.

Speaker 2:

Whether it be like I love my um, self-help, um, self-help. What am I trying to say? I love my audio books to professionally and personally develop myself. That's my go-to niche, which, again, is what I love about live life build. We have mindset coaches. Everything that we're learning is not only bettering our business but it starts with bettering ourselves, and so my mindset and mantra around these errors and continued challenges that we have that pop up running a business is that we either win or we learn.

Speaker 2:

Sometimes the cost of those learning is a little bit more than what you'd like, but I was sort of reflecting on it yesterday, thinking about what I'd talk about here. People go to uni. They have a huge, hex debt. They might start their career and then realize that they don't like it. They might start their career and then realize that they don't like it. We theoretically get paid to learn on site. Then if we God forbid want to go to become a builder and run a business, there's still a price to pay at times and thankfully I don't want to be going over at the same time, but sorry, continuously.

Speaker 2:

But live life build is an avenue for people to learn so they don't have to make the same mistakes that a lot of other builders have, and certainly for me, if I was able to start some coaching business coaching earlier, I would have absolutely had a lot more money in the bank. But that is the cost of the education that I had at the time, and I'm you know. I sit here today knowing that I've never made the same mistake twice, and so for that it is a learning, and so it also becomes a win. And even just that mindset in itself has been able to pick me up off the ground when you think you've finally nailed it and worked it out. And then the universe just goes you've still got a little bit to learn and throws you one more little curveball. You've just got to have that mindset to keep on going.

Speaker 1:

That's a really good way of thinking about it. It's all to do with the words we use and the stories we tell ourselves. That's what life's all about. If you're telling yourself shit stories all the time, your life's going to be pretty shitty. But if you change your wording and the stories you tell yourself, who knows what can happen?

Speaker 1:

But you're very aware of what goes on. So in our Elevate program and this is definitely not a sales pitch, this podcast for Elevate, but we do what we call Friday wins, and Anthony definitely does some of the best Friday wins, but I always love your Friday wins You're very aware of what has either gone on or what you're working on, or what you need to do to improve something, and I think that's something that a lot of people um, I don't know if it's an ownership thing or responsibility thing. They don't want to be aware of it or they choose not to be aware of it. I'm not sure. But I think the fact that you're very aware of things has definitely helped your growth, because you know what you need to focus on.

Speaker 2:

I've been blessed with an incredible family. My mum is one of. I'll happily put my hand up and say I'm a mummy's boy. I have been throughout my life. I'm the youngest of three boys and I knew how to play the game to make sure I got what I wanted and mum knew what she was doing. But we just, you know, we love each other. I was her baby, I still am her baby and you know, I guess, being around someone who is so empathetic to the nth degree and would do anything for anyone else before they do it for themselves, that's bled into me and it is a beautiful trait.

Speaker 2:

Sometimes it comes with its challenges, in that you may overthink things and overthink how other people are feeling, and it can affect you, because it's sort of, you know, you start feeling the load of what they might be at, might be taking. But it's also a bit of a superpower, because that, uh, empathy and authenticity towards other people's challenges means that you can connect with them and try to help them, um, without trying to be a rescuer, but you know, it does help me connect with other people and it's through seeing how my mum's been able to do it, um, and so going to the friday wins. Um, like I've seen from my first video we would have put up or I would have put up on facebook to now it's chalk and cheese. Like I was a nervous wreck, which is much probably like when I started this podcast and hopefully I'm warming into it, but I find it I don't know if cathartic is the right term, but to be able to discuss to my little camera that I know is going to all the members how my week's been. Sometimes there's incredible wins that are super exciting and sometimes the wins just getting through the week that I thought was going to be hell and we've got through to the other side and I've got another weekend with my family before I have another crack.

Speaker 2:

But I also found, through repetition and being open and vulnerable, that I had other members connecting with me and saying thanks very much for that, because that really, you know, resonated with me. And saying thanks very much for that because that really, you know, resonated with me. And, um, it's nice to know that I'm not the only one going through those challenges and like that's why I became a member of live life build, because I saw someone like yourself saying that you know, you had a big company, a big carpentry crew and we're running a business. But it was a shit show in your own words, and sadly, that's where I was too. But it was because I didn't understand. I didn't know how to run a business.

Speaker 2:

And that is my own fault, but I didn't know where to look. There was nothing thrown down my throat that I needed to know.

Speaker 1:

I don't know if it's your fault we don't know what we don't know and if you've spent your whole schooling and, more importantly, I guess, the early days of your career around other people that don't know what they don't know it's very hard to break that cycle and that's why I just take my hat off to everybody now that can see that there's better opportunities and better ways to do things.

Speaker 1:

But probably the biggest thing I take my hat off to everybody now that can see that there's there's better opportunities and better ways to do things. Um, but probably the biggest thing I'd take my hat off to people like yourself is how vulnerable you are because, um, like we've talked about on plenty of other podcasts, when you're vulnerable, shit changes. Yeah, like, if you're, if you're stuck in that old fashion and and I like, I guess, to go back to the footy like, is it hard to be vulnerable coming up from a sporting background where you're stuck in that old fashion? And I guess to go back to the footy, is it hard to be vulnerable coming up from a sporting background where you're around blokes all the time? I imagine vulnerability isn't something that's talked about in the bloody change rooms.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, look, it's a good question At the heart of it, and I don't want to sound arrogant. I really don't want to sound arrogant. I really don't want to sound arrogant. I was lucky enough to be reasonably talented at what I did, certainly in the clubs that I played at, and so that commanded, demanded, gave me a bit of respect around the people that I played with. I took that as that's how I was on the field. But off field I didn't play a character. I was who I was and I've always been someone who is open and honest and if I see something that's not right or someone being downtrodden, I'll look to make sure that they're all right. Someone being downtrodden I'll look to make sure that they're all right.

Speaker 2:

The part of footy that I didn't enjoy certainly later on, when it became a bit more of a job for me was that whole sort of bogan. You know. We play footy and then we go and get pissed and it's whoever's you know doing the stupidest things. I was a kid and that was fun at a certain point, but then I grew up and I'm not better than anyone else, but I that wasn't me anymore, and sometimes in a footy culture, that is the culture, that's just how it stays, and so you get left out because you're not doing what they're doing.

Speaker 2:

And I was okay with that. So I'd play footy, have my little you know connections that I have there, and then I'd be out of there, I wouldn't be hanging around, and so I got what I needed to out of footy, which was being able to express myself physically, um, but I guess, yeah, the the whole culture around certain clubs and you know the negative connotations about it. I didn't need to be around that and so I just I just removed myself and just found my people again. Very aware, mate, you know what's going on.

Speaker 1:

I'm getting old.

Speaker 2:

I'm nearly 40 now. So I'm starting to, you know, I'm starting to reflect a little bit more yeah, but back to the vulnerability thing yes it's not easy to do like, especially for blokes yeah so why?

Speaker 1:

how do you what? What makes you comfortable enough to be vulnerable with people?

Speaker 2:

uh, there's a few things. One, it is just who I am. Um, as a kid, I would like I couldn't stay at other people's houses. In primary school I was. I'd get homesick as daytime was beautiful. As soon as I got night time, I feel violently ill. I need to get home, which is sadly hilarious because it's happening in my family now as well. Like, our kids are the same.

Speaker 2:

So I couldn't hide that emotion. That emotion just bubbled out of me. I didn't have the ability to mask, and so I thought that was a real weakness of mine. If someone was abusive to me at school, whether it be a fight, an argument, my eyes would well up, I'd bubble and, like the emotion came out, fast forward. You know, 10, 15 years, I've realized that. That vulnerability and lack of being able to have a poker face, if you will, or mask, that is my strength and that's my ability to connect with people and to answer your question. How has it come about? I don't know.

Speaker 2:

I'm one of three boys. I've been brought up in an incredible family, a hardworking family, my mum's side. We were were all able to chat. My mum, especially my mum, would be very open. My dad was quite closed off. Um as he became a granddad he really softened um, which is has been great to see um, but he was the hard-working dad that made the money, um, and then would come home and it was mum's job to look after us and then, you know, to keep us three boys in you know, a private school or a Catholic school, she had to work as well.

Speaker 2:

Like it was tough during our primary and secondary school years for our parents and I was oblivious to it. I was the youngest of three, still swindling to get whatever I wanted at Kmart when I was home and, you know, pretending to be sick. So I'd have a day off just to spend with mum. And yeah, since becoming a parent, I'm sort of going off on a tangent, but since becoming a parent, running a business and having a mortgage, like I think as soon as we had my daughter Edie, our firstborn, I had like a light bulb moment, just an incredible more gratitude for my parents and understanding of how much they sacrificed for us.

Speaker 2:

And it's sad that it took me to become a father to say that, but like, yeah, they're my guardian angels in a way, like I wouldn't be who I am without them, so I don't know where it comes from. They're my guardian angels, in a way, like I wouldn't be who I am without them. So, um, I don't, I don't know where it comes from. I'm really grateful and, um, perhaps, that I am this way I wasn't when I was a kid, and it's only through being open and vulnerable to the right people.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, um, that I've understood that, uh, it is something beneficial and that I'm proud of yeah, well, I guess what you just said then to the right people, yeah, and it's like you see a lot of vulnerability in our community, in the Elevate community, and I'm super proud of that because it means that it's a safe space for people. Because you're right, like, if you're vulnerable in front of the wrong people, it can make a bad situation a lot worse. Yeah, absolutely.

Speaker 1:

So making sure you're surrounding yourself with the right people, because vulnerability is a big thing and whether it's with our wives, our kids, our people in our business or whatever like a lot comes out of being vulnerable. Yeah, there's a lot of progress on the other side. Yeah, you've just got to find that opportunity, I guess, to be vulnerable in the beginning to allow that progress to come through yeah, and like our group, uh, my team, um on-site team, are awesome.

Speaker 2:

We've we've got a really good um little thing going at the moment and uh, we, we, again, through live, life, build of um, I've learned to create a good culture that it's. There's a lot of different gamuts and one of them is to understand what their goals are. Um, like we sort of work through what our team values are. What their values are is just um people and feedback.

Speaker 2:

When I was telling the boys that I was going to be on your podcast, the overwhelming feedback was to just be yourself, like the reason, like we did a we call it leading teams in the footy field where you'd have someone sit out the front and everyone would ask you questions and let you know how you can improve things. And I'd take that into my uh working role and ask the boys for constructive criticism and how I can better myself for the business. Um, this was a few months ago and the feedback was just keep being yourself, just be you like, stick to being you. And that's pretty powerful and pretty awesome and also great to have a team that respect me in that way, and not because I'm the boss, but because they respect me as a person. So yeah, it was pretty special and it's pretty easy to do, to be yourself. There's only one person doing it, so teams, teams, really important.

Speaker 1:

Man. I know you're, um, like you're pretty proud of your team. It's something you mentioned quite a bit in your friday wins, um. But like, how do you attract like a lot of people um want to know how do you attract the right people to work in your business. So what have you done since you've started to build that team?

Speaker 2:

uh, I think the first thing for us, and the most important thing in our hiring, is to work out if they're a good person, like what their values are, more so than their skill set, especially, maybe, if it's a specific role, that would be how you weigh their skill base up.

Speaker 2:

But for us it comes down to like do they have a good moral compass, are good human beings? And we can do the rest. And, and so all our um employees that we have now of either uh, known previously in some way or another um, so met them outside of work before we hired them or um, they've a couple of them have actually come from another local business who do a lot more volume renovations in our area, but it's their methodology versus ours, and so they had seen how we were building, that we were trying to raise the bar and the standard of how we build, not to the NCC, but our standard, which is above, and that's what made them want to come over, because they want to become better and better themselves as well as their skills, and so I guess for me it's been partially through our loosely call it marketing, but what I put up on Instagram, which is just what we're doing and how we do it.

Speaker 1:

You do for anyone that wants to see some good marketing stuff, go and check out anthony's two-tone construction instagram page, because it made again to come from where you were um, I don't know what, 18 months ago, two years ago to now two years doing um. What do you call them?

Speaker 2:

you do uh questions that absolutely nobody asked. I actually need to get back on it. I've got one that I've filmed because someone did ask a question and it was actually my father-in-law. So shout out to Mark and apologies, but it's a ripping question and I think I answered about seven times and the godfather I kept sending it to our A-team group. So we've got a group in Live Life Build where, because we've got such a great amount of members, we break up into sort of eight to ten people and then we can connect with each other on like our WhatsApp group. And I kept sending it over because I wanted them to critique it before I put it, you know, to the masses of all my fans. And Craig the godfather kept having, you know, little things that I might have slightly said that could have been tweaked a bit better, and I think I got to the seventh one. I was like, ah, I'm going to come back to this and then I just never sent it. So, um, watch this space, I'll wait until this podcast comes out maybe?

Speaker 1:

yeah, but they're cracking little videos. I think they're great, mate, like it's.

Speaker 2:

You're breaking the ice, you're educating people like that's um it is great and, like I honestly I wouldn I've always been a bit cheeky, like in my environment, like certainly with footy. I was confident with what I did and that exerted into everything I did around that area. Um, becoming a builder and landing flat on your face time and time again it sort of cut away at my confidence in that field. Um and so like, being on something like today was just terrifying and you know it'd be like I'm about to be found out, but through, through, uh, being a part of live life, build, understanding what other builders in across australia are doing and the challenges they go through, and you know how it is reflective of mine and just continually learning and growing and implementing bit by bit has created this confidence in me in this industry, which is an ever-changing industry that you'd need to keep constantly learning and growing from. But yeah, I guess I haven't really thought of it.

Speaker 1:

I do seem to uh, I think they're fantastic. I um, I haven't. Like. I probably need to go back to your main page and just have a look at all of them, but anyone that pops up, I make sure I check it out multiple times. It's um. Like again, it's creating. You're doing something that I haven't seen any other builders do, but you're creating a connection, like because people are going to see that then they're gonna go shit. This bloke's awesome. Like I want to build with this bloke because he's got a bit of sense of humor about him. Like, and that through those videos, you can pick up the type of person you are and your type personality, and I just think it's great. Like, more builders need. That's the separation we need in our industry.

Speaker 1:

Like, instead of this race to the, the bottom for cheapest price, um, which brings me back to you just mentioned before um, you're building to your standard not the ncc and it's something I'm really passionate about, and I want more builders and more tradies as well probably more tradies than anything to understand like we need to set our own standards. Don't just like the ncc should be the absolute bare minimum. Worst case scenario. Yeah, um, it shouldn't be something you're trying to achieve. So how are you because, obviously, to build your standard more than likely cost more, yes, how are you selling that to your clients?

Speaker 2:

uh, what's education? It's purely letting them know like. And our standards, our quality, is top notch. Our, the guys that work for me are amazing and every time I have my site meetings, um, and the clients are wrapped with things I take minimal to no um, you know credit for it because they're the team doing it. Um, our standards is we're we're steering clear of uh using any anti-con blankets. So our biggest part of our standard is our cavity batten system, um and our wrb. So you know, I only renovated my house just under 10 years ago and we've got our uh.

Speaker 2:

I think we mightn't have put foil wrap on at the time, thank God, but it was the initial sort of class four. It might have been a class three at the time. Wrb weatherboards on the outside just nailed straight through it. I insulated all the walls, all the ceilings, but didn't do the floor because it wasn't a thing at the time. Like the builds that we did didn't have the insulation on the floor required, let alone specified. So our standards now is to make sure that we are completely enclosing the house with a really high quality WRB. What? Are you using?

Speaker 2:

Well, we use Depends. So we've got Pro Clber. Um is our number one and if we can afford to do it on projects that's what we'll use. But there are other class for um wrbs out there that are very high standard um. We actually have our um.

Speaker 2:

Rep jack from bowens took us through their um store and went through all the different wrbs that they've got there and told us the price point difference. But what also the difference is in the quality. So there is still an ability to use a really great class 4 wrb without having to use proclimate. But in saying that, proclimate is always our number one go-to. So between that and our cavity batten system it means you're basically giving yourself a second layer, probably the most important layer to keep moisture and water out of your house before any roof or cladding system. So for us, water ingress is like what 80, not 90 of all issues that builders face. If we can mitigate that, like before, we've even cladded the house or plastered the house. Um. Plus it also helps us speed up the build because once we've got a good wrb on top of the roof, theoretically we could be insulating and plastering inside um. It's a no-brainer for us.

Speaker 1:

What are you using for your cavity battens?

Speaker 2:

What timber? Yeah, so we're still just ripping down our pine. So there's a bit of an argument between do you use treated pine or normal pine and I've been listening, what side of the fence are you on? Well, I don't know yet. We're happy to use currently we're happy to use just standard MGP10, because sometimes treated pine can react to the cladding that you use on the outside, and so you don't want to have that as an issue. So there's pros and cons to both and it's a little bit of a rabbit hole and it's funny as a builder what we get into and what rabbit holes we go down. But what's your uh opinion? I'd love to know what yours is.

Speaker 1:

Oh, look nervous I'm no, I'm definitely no expert, I am. We're sticking to the treated. Yeah, so we're ripping down the 90 by 19 um rated decking yes, um, we stick to the treated like term out termites terrible up here. So to me, that's my number one reason for it, because if termites can bridge or get in there somehow, the first thing they're going to take out is those battens. Yeah, but I also use it just like treated pine stands up a lot better to moisture and like, theoretically, that's the cavity where we're trying to um prevent moisture getting into the building.

Speaker 1:

So there still is a chance that there's going to be moisture within that area yeah so by using treated timber, I'm hopefully mitigating my risk of any rot or anything in that timber. But, um, and then, yeah, like it's a good, really good point that you brought up like you do have to, um, check on the types of cladding you're using, because, yeah, obviously treated timber does react, um, with some claddings. So there's a lot, there is a lot to know with it and I'm definitely, like I said, I'm no expert, but I'm really, really keen and just every day reaching out to people on instagram asking questions, reaching out suppliers, like, because, just like you, that our bare minimum standard now is the proclimer app, the cavity batting system, um, I just think it's a no-brainer like once you understand why you're doing it and how it all works, it's an absolute no-brainer yeah, and it's.

Speaker 2:

It's interesting because the rabbit holes like we're going down. I became a passive house trained tradesman last year, which is one of those things that when you start to learn to that degree of the importance of just building better and healthier, there's so many things that you can take out of that that you'll never forget. Whether or not we'll build a passive house, I'm not sure but the importance of the WRB and understanding how to make an airtight home, and then the importance of then, if you are making an airtight home, to be looking at mechanical ventilation and how that will make the home healthier for a long time for the people who are occupying it. It's all that knowledge that is only going to benefit not only myself but the clients.

Speaker 1:

So how do you sell it to your client? Because, it does cost more, like that whole system costs more.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, so for us to like, as in to sell the air tightness side of things, or Well just like your process.

Speaker 1:

So you're using the better wraps, you're using the cavity batten system like it's more material, it it's more labor, it's more um costs. So how are you? Do your clients know that you're doing that or how are you marketing that?

Speaker 2:

absolutely so like we were saying, I do post things on uh instagram. I don't I'm not really tactical as such, as it's very sort of um, uh, off the cuff. As as far as what we're doing on the job side, I'll just let people know and maybe try and do a little bit of a laugh or a funny spin on it. But in our pre-construction. So we are at a point now where we don't engage any clients or won't engage with them unless they work through our pre-construction, which is huge. Again, we're talking. Two years ago or two and a half years ago, I was tendering work, um, and just cutting any profit possible out just to keep people working, like keep my team working, and to fast track. Two years on and like we have, we've currently got our biggest project, which is about to start in the next week or two. We have another two projects going on. We're all through pre-construction and then we have I think we're up to six in our pack process at the moment. That's awesome, mate.

Speaker 1:

I'm super proud of you.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, thank you, and I started not believing that anyone would. Even why would anyone want to pay me to be a part of the design stage and listen to me? But that's where we educate them, so we explain to them how we build and why we build and the importance of what we're doing and the reasons for it, and acknowledging that it does cost a little bit more. But the reality is, the longevity of the home and the quality of the build means that it's not a 25 year old renovation. This is going to last the test of time for the time that you're there, because, again, building in a local area like we're in the inner west of melbourne, in yarraville, where this the biggest project that we've done to date, which is about to start, they're two doors down from my house, so that'll be the sixth house that we've renovated on my street.

Speaker 1:

And the street's not more than 300, maybe 350 metres long. Mate, that is a testament to obviously yourself and your quality.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, and I think it's also like my team's role and my role is to not only create an incredible space for the clients and build an incredible product, but we are all about building great relationships. And so I've got a young family beautiful 80, you know age six and Lenny's three. We have no want or need to be leaving Yarraville anytime soon, so I want to be able to walk down the street with my head held high. When the neighbors are popping out and I've built their house, I don't want to be looking down hoping they don't tell me they've got you know a hairline crack somewhere.

Speaker 2:

I want them to be, you know, proud and happy to be seeing me. And, you know, up to date at this point we are still there. That's our goal every time we build.

Speaker 1:

It would be a pretty cool feeling to walk down the street and have your young kids go. Did you build that house, Daddy? Yeah, You're awesome.

Speaker 2:

My little boy, lenny, is like the apple didn't fall far from the tree, and it reminds me of me when I was with my dad at his age. He comes on site and H&S work, health and safety. I make sure everything's safe and he's got his boots on and he's always with me. But he has to come and see what we're up to and where we're at. So after everyone's out finished for the day. The boys love him, he's up there all the time and they sort of give him a bit of stick and he loves it and he'll come on site see what's going on.

Speaker 2:

And I can see in him he just wants to be like his dad, which is what I did, and it's pretty special. It's unreal and I need to be present because I sometimes, you know, with life, things are pressing. We've got a trade coming, so this has to be done. But then, as I'm leaving, know to get to site. Lenny is saying something to me and I know if I keep cutting him and shutting him out, it's going to kill his potential dream to do what I'm doing or be a part of the industry, um, and so I'm in a very advantageous position where-.

Speaker 1:

There's that awareness again, mate, you're just full of awareness.

Speaker 2:

Yeah Well, thank you. It is like I'm in an advantageous position where our jobs are close to home. I can help out with drop-off and pick-ups. I am being the dad that I wanted to be. At times I can still slip up and be not present when I need to be, be on my phone waiting for an email or something, and there's always room for improvement. But, like we do a lot of in Live Life Build, reflecting back, like we talk about what a successful builder is, and certainly for us, we've struggled on the profit side of things. But, um, you know, we use our overhead calculator now and, like everything that we are tracking with our cost tracking, everything's looking like it's getting to where we want to get to, which is great, but all the other gamuts of it, uh, like being able to be around for my kids, um, while still juggling a business, being able to get off the tools, which I thought was the be all and end all you like.

Speaker 1:

That hasn't been, you haven't all. That hasn't been a long time, has it since you got off the tools?

Speaker 2:

No no.

Speaker 1:

Because I know when you first signed up, that was a big goal of yours. Yeah, you were struggling with that transition.

Speaker 2:

And you know what's funny. So I've done that. I've got an incredible supervisor. We sort of have a supervisor, slash leading hand, slash foreman. That's our role, which is what I did at Appetite and I loved. So Mark's come on. Shaki he was my apprentice is now qualified, he's taking on more responsibility and so I've been able to step back. But I was only with the boys. I think it was last Friday digging trenches in the rain, in the mud. Actually, I tell a lie, it wasn't raining yet, it was the week after, so it was dry.

Speaker 2:

It was hard, I had a whole day there. I was meant to come back at lunchtime to relieve my wife so she could go and do some stuff, but I was having too much fun and so I had to call it in. I stayed with the boys and Doug all day, and what it's reminded me is I still need that. I still need that sort of connection with the team and being on site, and my enjoyment is doing things with my hands. That's why I got into building, that's why I became a carpenter and so, moving forward as we've got these jobs starting, my goal is to spend a day with each apprentice on each job site.

Speaker 2:

So we've only got two apprentices. One's just about to start, which will be the second. And yeah, my goal is to help the supervisors be able to take a little bit of pressure off them so they can be building and not have to completely hold hands, and so I can then also train the apprentices how I would like to, and I then also get to be on site with the boys and have a bit of banter. And how I've been able to do that is, again, overhead calculator, and Ryan from Loxbeck has been a great help. I've put on VA, so Ryan and I job share a VA. Who does our estimating?

Speaker 1:

That's really cool.

Speaker 2:

And so estimating for me, computers in general are something that I'm quite slow at. Probably should have paid a little bit more attention at school, but, alas, I just needed my login and that's all I needed at the time, so they've been really helpful. We've got Jyre out in the Philippines and he is killing it and he's so clever, smart, um, he's made a huge difference in freeing up time for me to be able to do that, so it's funny. I had this goal of getting off the tools and then realize that my happiness was when I was there.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, and I think that's that's a really important point because, like I try and stress to builders or tradies, like it's, you structure your business however you like, but there is a point there where you've got to get off the tools to get the growth. But ultimately the growth should be setting your business up for you to have the role that suits you the best, that you're most efficient at, that you enjoy doing. Because if you're in a business and you're not doing what you enjoy doing, sooner or later you're going to lose your passion and you're going to hate it.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, and that was happening to me because I was feeling disconnected from my team because I was in the office all the time doing proposals. Then I'd be going out. I love going to site meetings with clients. I love going to meet potential clients to try and make a connection. I'll continue to do that and I want to have two days on site. So that's what I'm now gearing things toward and, yeah, it's by putting people in places to do things more efficiently than me and more cost effective, so that I can be more value elsewhere and bring more value to the company, which is pretty cool I'm playing with it, I'm playing with it.

Speaker 2:

I'm playing with the company.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, it's awesome. I'm super, super proud of you. I get so much joy. Out of nearly every member that's ever been in Elevate, I can remember where I was when they first reached out or called me, yeah, or where I made first contact with them and it just yeah, it gives me immense joy just thinking back to, like holy shit, like to have that conversation we had back here and now, to be able to sit here with you now and you're rattling all this business stuff off and it's just fucking awesome.

Speaker 2:

It's surreal, isn't it't it? And I love it Like not to, you know, take it down a dark path, but I became, uh, I started with Launchpad because it was my last ditch attempt. I kept, you know, making mistakes, fumbling, losing money. I'm a catastrophizer at the best of times so, like you know, when one bill comes in, I think I'm going to lose the house and it's, you know, it's rewiring my brain there and it's like a muscle you go to the gym as you keep doing it, you get stronger and more resilient. But yeah, starting with Launchpad, there was a huge amount of aha moments and you know I'm so blessed to have continued on with Elevate.

Speaker 2:

The reason that I knew I had to do something was I had a dear friend of mine who became a registered builder. When I became a registered builder, about the same time, and so, as we initially started picking up work, one of us would be busy and the other one wouldn't, so we'd chop and change and help each other out labor-wise. When I first had my first job, that's where I first was introduced into the feelings of anxiety and overwhelm. Prior to then, I don't know how I did it, but, other than being nervous for oral presentation at school. I was pretty chilled and everything sort of just fell into place. The universe just worked for me.

Speaker 2:

And then, all of a sudden, my first job. I had a client who was overseas while we were renovating their laundry and bathroom and I was getting phone calls and emails like at three or four in the morning and apologies. I didn't know the time frame difference, even though they were born in Melbourne. So, anywho, I was triggered, I thought I had to reply then and there, and I remember just not sleeping for a few days, not eating. I thought I'd fried my brain because I'd never experienced anything like that before, and so I went through a huge amount of again we talk about vulnerability and being open.

Speaker 2:

I couldn't bottle that up and hide it from anyone. It was written on my forehead. I was struggling. Within a day or two I'd seen a doctor to get a referral to see a psychologist. The first psychologist was a lot about the science behind it and that didn't really connect with me. And the second psychologist I saw was like a mom, like you know, warm, loving, caring, and so I connected, of course, and Sandra's been my psychologist for the best part of nearly 10 years now and she's been incredible. She doesn't want to see me anymore, and so I just keep peppering her because I like to go and get a tune-up.

Speaker 1:

I was just going to say. I think one thing that I've got out of you is we've got to treat ourselves just like we do our cars. Don't go and see a psychologist just when you're in the bad moment. Go and get a tune-up.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, get a what do we call it? A mental health net positive. So you know, while things are good, that's when you can work on stuff that you wouldn't usually. Yeah, but going back to the car side, I'm terrible at looking after my car, so that doesn't really work for me. I couldn't tell you the last time I've checked my oil or water.

Speaker 2:

But, yeah, so that's been a great journey for me and it's been like a grind initially, but what I thought was the thing that was going to break me was where I've drawn the greatest strength from, and it's from a point from there is where I really grew into the person I am, because up until then I hadn't trained that, I'd never had a great deal of. I guess I didn't have resilience in that field, in the mental health side of things, because I'd never been truly challenged in that way where everything was going to land on me and it was me that was responsible. And so, thankfully, through being vulnerable, I was going to land on me and it was me, you know, that was responsible, and so, thankfully, through being vulnerable, I was able to seek help, and this builder mate of mine he had some struggles also through his first job, and I was trying to be a voice of reason for him and, you know, be an ear to lend, or however you say it, and, um, unfortunately, he took his own life on the job site.

Speaker 2:

Sorry to hear that, mate yeah, um, and so having that be the case and feeling like I'd tried my best to help navigate it with him and point him in the right direction, it just showed me how dark it can get for some people. And so trying to reach out and actually better myself through the business side of things was a no-brainer for me because I needed to try every avenue before I just called it quits and didn't do it anymore because it was a huge risk that, like I was taking, considering I was going blind into it, I didn't actually know how, because it was a huge risk that, like I was taking, considering I was going blind into it. I didn't actually know how to run a business. I knew how to build but not run a business.

Speaker 2:

And you know I have an incredible network of friends and family. Like my wife is my biggest rock and my biggest supporter, obviously my parents, my uncle Bill, which I think I've spoken a fair bit on my videos, like he's he's been a footy mentor, a business mentor. He's just a incredible human being and I've had all these people to lean on um during my hardest times and really open up and let know what's going on. And I'm not sure I'm not sure if damo had the personality um to be able to do that, and so it bottled up a bit more in into him and um it's a hard like.

Speaker 1:

The construction industry is a hard industry. Yeah, like really, um, I had a meeting with the guys from tx yesterday and they're running through some stats of um, the people that are reaching out to them and like the trades that they come from and the industries and all those types of things, and the construction industry is right up at the top and, uh, it was actually, and carpenters were number one. Yeah, um, so it's it. Just, it shouldn't be like that. Like we, we need to support each other and again I think it comes back to it's a bloke thing. Like you, you feel like you've, you're a big boy, you've a girl, you've, you've stepped out, you've started your own business. Like you, you should be fine, like it's. It's like it's hard to, I guess, figure out that it's not your fault that you're not doing well and it's okay to ask questions or it's okay to reach out to other people in the industry.

Speaker 1:

Or it's okay to reach out to like the likes of tx and that's those sorts of people like it's again, if you don to other people in the industry. Or it's okay to reach out to the likes of T-Acts and those sorts of people. It's again, you don't know what you don't know and, as you found out, it can happen on your very first job.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, yeah, and like Damo, my mate, we've got his initials on the back of all our singlets and tops. That was a conscious decision I made, like straight away, um, because every time I wear a two-tone top he's with me. It also gives um my team, an understanding that it's okay to not be okay, um, to be able to feel like. For me, it's very important to create a culture and a space where they feel like they can let me know what's going on, um, and if they need to take time off or anything, or if they want to just chew the fat, like, whether they like it or not, I I go through so many scenarios and you know I'm an oversharer and I'm talking to them knowing that as a, as the business owner am, I meant to be talking to you like this and talking about this, but but it's who I am and like it lands with them well.

Speaker 2:

And yeah, it is such an important and it's not only men like life's tough in general and people just need to be able to let other people get things off their chest. And also, people need to give people grace, because you never know what someone else is going through and you know we're quick to judge and take. You know we feel like upset or someone's judged us a certain way, but there could be a million and one different reasons how they got to that. And yeah, just everybody, love everybody. That's a pretty good way to go.

Speaker 1:

Yeah Well, you can't make it personal. Like people aren't. Like I do find it hard, even with, uh, like employees taking days off and those types of things. Like it's it's not always because they're they're sick or they're not feeling well. Like you never know whether there's been an argument in their relationship or they could be under like financial pressure. Like you just never know what there's been an argument in their relationship or they could be under financial pressure. You just never know what's going on with someone.

Speaker 1:

I'm pretty calm these days I wasn't in the early days but I don't want to go off at someone or put someone in an even worse mood. That's going to push them over the edge. I'm probably similar to you, mate. I do tend to overshare and probably try and step in a bit too much here and there. But I I want to make sure my team on site is is in, like coming to work and enjoying their work. Like, if they are having pressures at home, financially or relationship wise, whatever ideally I'd like work to be the place where they come to, to feel relaxed and comfortable and the team can support them. And it's not always easy, you would know. As a business owner, it's probably the hardest thing of running a business is trying to keep everybody on site. The cogs turn it all the time.

Speaker 2:

We've been very lucky to do a disc profile recently to sort of understand you know where my personality is, and then it made me understand potentially where some of the guys in our team um their personalities lie and um, it's always, it's a constant juggle.

Speaker 2:

You know, being a parent, being a husband and being a business owner, like you do feel like at times you're barely keeping the balls up, um, but you know you just got to try your best and make sure you try to keep those conversations going and um, like for me, like you were saying before me, trying to get a few days back on the work side is because if I um schedule things correctly when I'm on site, theoretically my phone doesn't have to be right there with me, which you know.

Speaker 2:

If I'm of late, like I'm there but I'm not there because I'm sending an email for something when we were just digging and we're digging all day or whatever we're doing on site, I just get in the zone, you get into that flow state and you just you know it's everyone working towards a common goal and there's just a energy about it that is, you know, contagious and I love it. So, um, hopefully me doing a bit more with the boys like they already have it, but I feel like I'm, I must be, you know, the greatest of energies for them. So when I'm there I really try and lift spirits and you know a bit of kumbaya and um, just have a bit of fun at my, my expense, and then they realize that I'm an idiot and I reckon your job sites would be fun, mate.

Speaker 1:

Just going by the stuff you put out on your instagram would be be pretty cool. It's um mate, how like I guess what's some advice for people that are thinking about starting their own business, like going from your experience yeah, um, definitely seek some professional help as far as coaching, and god who knows if you're struggling, seek professional help anyway.

Speaker 2:

Um, for me, my business has changed and I personally have changed through getting coaching. Um, it was all, it was all part of me, um, but it's opened doors and opened things up in me and given me the confidence to shine in certain areas that probably lay dormant or, you know, was suppressed by having a few years of we'll call it bad luck in the building industry. It's number one is just, yeah, educate yourself and look after yourself as well, because fitness is a big part of my life and certainly helps my mental side. So, you know, I've got a, I've got a list as long as my arm in my mental toolbox of you know, if I start to feel anxious and overwhelmed, number one thing that I do is go for a run. The endorphins I get after a run makes whatever overwhelm I have, you know, at least diminished by 50%.

Speaker 1:

Can we talk about that for a minute? Yeah, Having that well you said like a toolbox to deal with that, because anxiety is huge.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, look at me now. I'm comfy as I might take your seat in a second, but you would have known when I came on here.

Speaker 1:

I thought I was going to vomit when I first sat down, so yeah, well, I definitely you couldn't have picked that, but like so you, you said before that you, um, when you first experienced anxiety, you, you didn't know what it was yeah you thought you were throwing your brain. So yeah, what? Talk us through that, because I feel like a lot of people are probably dealing with anxiety and they're not quite sure what it is.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, so for me it was just the I don't know incessant is that the right term? I just had voices in my head and they were all negative about not being able to. So a bit of context. The job it was a bathroom laundry reno. I climbed under the brick veneer home and thought I got to where the bathroom was and this was. I was doing pre-construction when I didn't even know what pre-construction was. It was just to price it up and I thought I got to where the bathroom was, I saw some plumbing pipes and I was like beautiful, it's a suspended. You know, we had a subfloor under there.

Speaker 2:

When we started the demo we realized that it was a concrete slab and it was infill. So I'd never done, uh, I'd never moved plumbing or had the plumbers move plumbing in a slab. So I thought it was going to not be possible. And, um, the world was ending. My plumber came, you know, the next day and told me that it's all doable and this will be fine, it's a little bit slower, it won't be too much more. But my brain was still telling me that I can't finish this like. This is my first job and I've ruined everything. I'm going to lose the house, and it didn't matter what anyone told me, I wouldn't calm down. I was still getting chased by a tiger and I'd never had that before. Like a pretty rational person at most times, and I'm able to listen to people, and none of it was landing. And that's when I knew there was a problem. And and I'm not a terrible sleeper, I'm the opposite, I'm an incredible sleeper, much to the detriment of my poor wife wanting to watch a show on the couch, because I'll be snoring, and I learned that from dad but I wasn't able to sleep for probably two and a half days or two days in a row, um, for probably two and a half days or two days in a row, um, and on the third days, when I went and saw a doctor, um, I didn't eat, uh, and it just it steamrolled really quickly for me, which, in hindsight, is a great thing because I had to action it straight away. It was not feasible for me to keep going down that route, or else I would have yeah, I would have lost my marbles big time. So that's what it was for me.

Speaker 2:

Now, how it sort of bubbles up, I can start to feel that sense of overwhelm or lack of control, and usually it's when I'm projecting into the future what ifs. And for me, when I start getting into that headspace, I start getting into that headspace. I tend to start to work on my mental toolbox. So, whether it be not having any beers during the week, sometimes if the footy for us in the AFL they're playing footy on Thursday nights now, so it seems to be an excuse to start drinking a day earlier. But I know if I'm starting to be overwhelmed, the booze completely goes. I start eating healthier and my big one is just exercise, like I need to get that energy, that tension out of my body. And for me, yeah, running has been incredible, to the point where you know I've done it enough and dealt with anxiety enough. I've ran a few marathons and it's a big part of my life, yeah.

Speaker 1:

I think it's important to speak about that sort of stuff because on a daily basis, like I don't even know, we've got a few members in our team that I know deal with bad anxiety and they um, I know they don't have steps in place to deal with it and you can see them through the day just get worse and worse and worse, and I'd it always worries me, but they take that home. So, yeah, I'm really grateful for you to speak about that, mate, and put it out there.

Speaker 2:

No, mate, it's super important and that's only been, you know, sort of by fumbling through and obviously seeking help with the psychologists that they give you ideas and then it's what you put in practice and what is something that you see value in. I guess it's like we're talking to a client, but what I enjoy most now in the Live Life Build field is there's people that are coming in, like where I was when I first started and I never visualized myself as anyone different and I'm not any different to any of the guys and girls that are in live life build. But for people to reach out to me, um, for advice and then let me know how they're going, that's huge. Now, like for me to be any kind of leader to these guys who are also builders and, um feel like they're comfortable enough to ask me for assistance or opinion. That's awesome. That's a really humbling sort of feeling and I'm really grateful that that happens.

Speaker 1:

Well, you've put in the effort, you've implemented things. Consistency, I think, is a massive thing and you've definitely been consistent, I think is a massive thing. And, like you've definitely been consistent, like you show up all the time, um, and I think that's that's something that gets overlooked like you've got to be consistent, you've got to implement what you're learning and you've done both and that's now showing because, um, you've become a leader.

Speaker 2:

yeah, like people look up to you thank you, um I again going back to footy. I was an incredible leader. I should have been captain a few times and I was pipped and was just vice captain at redland over here, but um no, it's, it's, it's great.

Speaker 1:

I do you think sports helps you become who you are now in your business?

Speaker 2:

100 um, so that, and being the youngest boy of three, nothing was given to me except from mum, but on like playing cricket or footy my brothers. I was a young little turd. They didn't want to be given it to me, so I had to get the ball off them, and that put me in such good stead for playing bigger bodies from a young age. I forgot the question now.

Speaker 1:

How did footy help you? Has footy helped you become better in business.

Speaker 2:

Absolutely yeah. So it's the part of understanding. On a physical aspect, if I push harder than the other person at some point they'll break before me, because I knew that I'd done the reps. So pre-season training, during training, so we'd train two nights a week, three nights a week. If it was in the higher levels and I would go for I'd get there early and go for a run beforehand, and so mentally I knew that whatever they did that day, I'd done more.

Speaker 2:

And so when that came out onto the footy field I knew that regardless of how skillful and how talented the person that I was playing against was, I I knew I could outgrind him. So I'd be running as hard as I could in the first quarter as I was in the last quarter, and that mentality has helped with business. In the sense that, and certainly in Live Life Build, it's overwhelming how much information and knowledge there is in the platform. But if you just incrementally just work on little bits that you need in your business and there's always things you can sharpen I just, when we do the 6P wheel, I just worked on the things that were glaringly obvious and then, once that was starting to look better, I worked on the next one. But as long as I kept working on things, I knew it was progressively getting better and I learned that through sport, like just hard work pays off yeah, yeah, definitely.

Speaker 1:

Well, I'm gonna wrap it up on that mate that landed well didn't that mate. You, yeah, look, I'm, I'm super proud of you. You deserve everything. You're achieving you, um, you're putting the hard work, you're consistent, you show up, you, you take an ownership. Like I just think the world's your oyster mate. Like, just keep smashing it out, so um, thank you thanks for having me.

Speaker 1:

No, it's been a pleasure, mate. I was like, seriously, I could, we could keep talking for hours, but um, look guys, thanks for listening. Um, it's been another cracking podcast. So make sure you like, share, subscribe all those things so that we can continue to make this australia's number one construction podcast. Um, stay tuned, we'll see you on the next one. Are Are you ready to build smarter?

Speaker 2:

live better and enjoy life. Then head over to livelikebuildcom forward slash elevate to get started.

Speaker 3:

Everything discussed during the Level Up podcast with me, dwayne Pearce, is based solely on my own personal experiences and those experiences of my guests. The information, opinions and recommendations presented in this podcast are for general information only, and any reliance on the information provided in this podcast is done at your own risk. We recommend that you obtain your own professional advice in respect to the topics discussed during this podcast.