The "Level Up" with Duayne Pearce Podcast
I take on the role of an authoritative voice that fearlessly communicates truths drawn directly from my lived experiences. With a genuine sense of ownership, my insights are free from any hidden agendas – they truly belong to the audience. My stories and journey add remarkable value, the key now lies in harnessing its power effectively to help others.
My purpose is to create a new residential building industry. My mission is to inspire unshakable self-confidence in my colleagues in the industry, empowering them to orchestrate prosperous, enduring, and lucrative businesses that bring exceptional projects to fruition for our clients.
My goal is to foster a deeper comprehension among clients about the identity and functions of builders, redefining their perceptions.
The "Level Up" with Duayne Pearce Podcast
Why Every Aussie Home Needs This: The Secret to Healthy, Mold-Free Living
Welcome back to Level Up with Duayne Pearce! In this episode, Duayne sits down with Nick from Highwood Timber to tackle one of the biggest challenges in Australian home building: creating healthy, mold-free homes that stand the test of time.
Duayne shares his personal mission to become one of Australia’s leading healthy home builders, diving deep into the science of condensation, ventilation, and why traditional building methods are no longer enough. Nick introduces Highwood Timber’s innovative LVL batten system—a game-changer for managing moisture, improving air quality, and meeting the latest National Construction Code (NCC) requirements.
You’ll learn:
- Why condensation and poor ventilation are causing hidden health issues in Aussie homes
- How Highwood’s ventilated LVL battens work and why they’re better than traditional solutions
- The latest changes to Australia’s building codes and what they mean for builders and homeowners
- Practical tips for building healthier, longer-lasting homes
Whether you’re a builder, tradie, or homeowner passionate about healthy living, this episode is packed with actionable insights and expert advice.
🔗 Check out Highwood Timber: https://highwood.com.au
🔔 Subscribe for more episodes on building science, healthy homes, and industry innovation!
Got questions or want to share your experience? Drop a comment below!
HealthyHomes #BuildingScience #Condensation #Ventilation #DuaynePearce #HighwoodTimber #LevelUpPodcast #Australia #PassiveHouse #MoldFreeHomes
Check out the Duayne Pearce website here...
https://duaynepearce.com/
Hey guys, welcome back to another episode of Level Up. We are back in the shed this afternoon for another cracking episode. This one is something that I'm incredibly passionate about at the moment. And I'm actually on a mission. If you haven't heard it on my other podcasts, I want to become one of Australia's leading healthy home builders. We're definitely taking healthy homes very seriously in our building business. Spending a lot of time, a lot of effort researching, collaborating, talking to people. So the guest I've got with me today is actually someone that we've teamed up with. They've come on board, they're going to be one of our sponsors for this podcast because I believe in what they're uh the what their product and what they're doing. So I'm really looking forward to today's podcast because I think there's going to be a lot of education, a lot of knowledge shared. So a massive warm welcome to Nick from Highwood Products, mate. How are you?
SPEAKER_02:I'm very well. I'm very well, Duane. Thanks for having me. It's a privilege to be on air today. I'm really looking forward to the conversation. It'd be great.
SPEAKER_05:Well, mate, I think like you, your product definitely plays a massive role in what I'm trying to achieve. Sure. Um, and even just from the little bits and pieces that I put out on my socials, I can tell that there's a lot more education needed. Sure. Like, yep. Um, so I guess uh to let you know um about Nick's product. So Nick is has developed an L engineered LVL uh batten system for walls and roofs. Yep, absolutely. Um and let's face it, like it's it's a very crucial part if you're aiming to have a healthy or a passive home.
SPEAKER_02:Spot on. So it's the the primary function of the of the material is to provide ventilation and drainage through your wall cavity. It looks like a simple design, and it really is a simple uh product to achieve a relatively complex result. But basically what it does is it allows any moisture that builds up inside your building that passes through your vapor permeable membrane to be drained and ventilated away from your wall frame, which keeps your wall cavity dry, keeps the inside of the home dry, and stops any moisture-related issues that form in your wall system uh from having sort of long long-term negative impacts on your home. So, I mean, nowadays, especially uh as that conversation has started to become more mainstream, uh, people are much more aware of the fact that you know mould, uh condensation, and any sort of associated issues with that can have long-term health impacts, could also have long-term impacts on the quality of your frame. Uh, all these things uh are important to be aware of and important to manage. Uh, so we think we've come up with a really simple solution to doing exactly that. Um, probably where it's different is it's a structural material as well. So, you know, it'll free span across your studs, hold the weight of your cladding.
SPEAKER_05:Yeah. Definitely keen to get into that more. Sure. Just to go back a little bit, because a lot of the questions I'm getting on my socials is people asking why. Why are we even putting a cavity baton on our jobs?
SPEAKER_02:Sure. So to give it a bit of an overview on the cavity space, basically, moisture, the main reason that we've got uh vapor-permeable membranes in our homes now, and it's starting to become a bit more of a conversation, is moisture accumulates in two different places. It can come out of the air from the outside of your building. Uh, but the more common example, and what most of the cavity systems that we're looking at today are addressing is moisture that actually comes from inside the building.
SPEAKER_05:It can it can uh be different depending on your climate zone. Absolutely.
SPEAKER_02:Yes, absolutely. It can be it can it can vary climate zone to climate zone, but um any moisture that passes through that membrane's got to have somewhere to go, right? So the vapor membranes are excellent at getting that moisture out and passing the moisture through, but if they've got nowhere to escape that wall cavity, essentially you've just got latent moisture that's sitting in between your cladding and your frame, which unless ventilated, can cause mold.
SPEAKER_05:How where we might can we talk a little bit about your background? Yeah. Like because um you're very passionate about timber.
SPEAKER_02:Yes, yes. I um I've since I left high school been in the timber industry more or less. So worked in hardware. My first job out of high school was cooking the barbecue on a Saturday at my local hardware store, um, which was great. Sort of worked my way up into doing um uh sales and sort of uh had a few builder accounts and that sort of thing. So got a got a good feel for the building industry and came to love it. Um did a stint up at the Sunshine Coast for in the sort of sales around the supply and install of solid timber flooring. Solid and engineered timber flooring. So that that was probably a good um a really good insight into timber as it performs, particularly timber as it performs in in moisture. So um I'm sure you've and I'm not sure if you guys have even when you install your floors, if you install your own floors or you have uh, you know, a flooring contract to come in. But either way, um you'd be well aware of the fact that timber likes to take on and and and dissipate moisture. So that that sort of taught me about uh timber and moisture as a as a concept uh and making sure that's correctly managed. It also made me um uh gave me a bit of an exposure to engineered timber as a concept and how uh stable it can be as a as a concept. Uh and then spent a bit of time in wholesale uh engineered wood product in LVL as well. So have always just sort of been in the in the timber industry and have really grown to love it. I mean, I think like we covered off earlier, I I believe in timber as a as a material, as something that's got really long legs in our construction industry. Um I you know, I think it's beautiful, it's good to look at it. You know, it's it's it's a good feature in homes. I like when people use, you know, timber ceilings and timber floors and all that sorts of stuff. But I think it's it's I probably agree with what you said earlier. I think it's uh it's here to be used, and we we're finding better ways to use it, which is uh an exciting time for us. So but to answer your question, I've I've always sort of been exposed to it. Um I think always will be.
SPEAKER_05:So that's yeah, it's and look, I'll put my hand up. Like honestly, it's probably been three to four years that since I sort of started questioning why we should be doing this and and what we're doing. Like the last two years, it's it's our standard practice now, but it all comes back to building science, doesn't it? And it and I know like in the States and Canada and um Europe, they building science is something that gets talked about a lot more. Like I until recently, I haven't really noticed it being spoken about in Australia. Yes. And I guess for that reason, and because we're not taught that, like I could I just couldn't put it all together. And like I didn't really understand my um like a lot of the reasons I thought we had building wraps basically coming up through my trade and my time and becoming a builder, and then like no one ever explained to me what the building wrap was really for. Sure. Um, and honestly, I thought it was more to do with insulation than um condensation or or moisture um prevention or control or whatever you want to call it. Yep. Um, but again, it's one of those things like once you know it, you can't unknow it. That's right. As soon as you start to understand that our homes create moisture from the humans that live in it, the like cooking, yep, um, your bathrooms with all the steam, like there's just do you do you I I always forget the number. Like it like the average family of four produces like is over 200 litres of moisture a week.
SPEAKER_02:I couldn't tell you off the top of my head, but it's a lot, it is a lot, it's a lot more than we think, definitely.
SPEAKER_05:And so that has to go somewhere. Yes. And so I guess for people that are asking why we use a batten, if that moisture's coming through, and even if you are using the correct building wrap, like in the past, and and um even now with claddings people are using, that moisture's stopping at the back of the cladding. That's right. So it might be coming through the mem the wall wrap, but it's not going anywhere.
SPEAKER_02:Spot on.
SPEAKER_05:And so if it doesn't go anywhere, especially now that we've got to fill our walls, like it's code to insulate your walls, if people aren't using a mould-resistant insulation, nine times out of ten, that moisture is getting trapped and getting absorbed by the insulation. Yep, absolutely. So I don't I'm I don't know, it's probably a whole other topic and something we can talk about another day. But personally, I knowing what I know now, I think Australia is heading towards similar to what Europe, Canada, New Zealand's been through, like the Linky Home syndromes. Like we we're gonna have a lot of mould issues.
SPEAKER_02:Oh, absolutely. It's it's it you mentioned New Zealand, I think it's a really good sort of case in point as to certainly where I believe the industry is heading as an Australian industry, um, and for good reason, absolutely. But uh New Zealand uh is is a probably a great uh and a well-developed example of uh condensation now very well managed in their sort of building practice. But if we wind back the clock quite a few years, they were relying on um well lightweight cladding started to become a bit more mainstream over there, um, out of a traditionally sort of block and brick market, relying on the cladding system for your your primary sort of weatherproofing layer that led to water ingress issues.
SPEAKER_05:Um, but can we like everyone thinks cladding is a moisture layer, don't they? To a certain extent, yes. I do like I that's how I was taught. Yep. Like do your cladding perfectly, sticker up holes. Like that's your prevention.
SPEAKER_02:Yes, and look, it absolutely is a very, very significant part of your prevention, but it's it's uh it is sort of part and parcel with also weatherproof membrane. Absolutely. So if we sort of take a you know walk through history, that was where we started. There was a water ingress issue, uh, which was deemed the leaky homes crisis in New Zealand, which um led to an enormous amount of rectification cost long term. The sort of overhaul from that was to go to airtight uh barriers, which were really effective at managing the moisture from a um from a weather perspective. So any moisture coming in through rain or anything like that was very effectively managed. But almost to the extent that it was too effectively uh managed and ended up uh building sort of eskies or equivalent, you know?
SPEAKER_05:Yeah, it's like going for a walk in the rain and putting a raincade on and like you just you sweat inside. Exactly right.
SPEAKER_02:So it was it was excellent at keeping the rain out, but also excellent at keeping the moisture in. So again, vapor-permeable membranes and vapor permeable uh weather-resistant barriers started to become more prevalent. Um, again, they were excellent at doing what they were designed to do, which was passing moisture through. But the issue then became where does that moisture go? So New Zealand has arrived at a very stock standard cavity ventilation across the board. Um, and I believe that's coming here. And it certainly is starting to get reflected in in our codes here and certainly our proposed codes here. Um, and I think it's for a good reason. I think it's a really effective uh way to manage condensation.
SPEAKER_05:Well, a lot of it's not just New Zealand, like a like a lot of parts of Europe and and America and Canada, that's their standard practice, isn't it? That they're they're building cavities on the outsides of their building.
SPEAKER_02:Absolutely. So I think what do they call it in the US? It's uh like a furring, furring uh furring screen or rain screen system. Um but yeah, exactly right. So certainly in the northwest of the United States, it's very common practice to have a you know similar sort of system, you know, be it a vertical batten or a cross-hatched batten system. But either way, it's it's uh it's all achieving a very similar result, which is having a an unencumbered air slash moisture path in your wall cavity.
SPEAKER_05:Yeah. And I guess it is a big rabbit hole. Like there's just so many parts to it, and it it can be difficult to understand all of it, but like that's the basics of it, isn't it? Like you're you're controlling moisture. Yep, absolutely. You're um by using a good quality uh building wrap, such as for a climber, yep. Um you're preventing any moisture that's getting in through your facade, whether it's lightweight cladding or brick or block or whatever it may be from getting into the building. But the moisture that's coming out from inside the building, you're allowing it to either dry or move around. Yes. Um and so something else I've learned through my journey on this, um, the stack effect, which I'm sure you're aware of. Like the whole like the other big idea of having a cavity is to get air movement around the the outside of the building. So obviously hot air rises, so creating a good cavity that's um will basically goes from the bottom of your cladding all the way up your walls over the tops of your roof insulation and out through a vented ridge capping or some sort of roof ventilation. Yes, the more air movement you have, obviously that's going to help the wall stay dry as well.
SPEAKER_02:Absolutely, and and also dissipate heat, which is you know, uh has a it its own set of sort of thermal benefits to your overall wall system. I mean, we have very hot summers, um, it you know, it gets hot sort of year-round, but it's uh it's any way that that air can pass over your building also helps just the the overall thermal performance of your home.
SPEAKER_05:Yeah, so your batons are designed to do that. Like they um, I'm not sure if it like you should be able to pick it up if you if you're listening to this, you really should go and watch uh on YouTube because you'll see Nick's bought in a little um sample today. But can you tell us a little bit about your batons? Because like they're designed to help with all this air movement and moisture movement and that type of thing.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, absolutely. So from a design perspective, uh, and again, I'm sure if anyone's looking at it can see that it's a it's quite a straightforward concept. Um, but the the material is is LVL, structural LVL, uh, with grooves, air channels slash drainage vents on either side to allow an even distribution of ventilation across the wall. The top edge of the product is beveled to allow drainage away from the frame. So uh, and the the bottom edge stays square basically to allow that moisture on the front side of the baton to drip off the bottom. So, like a drip strip you would have with cladding, very similar sort of concept here. Uh, but it needs to allow that moisture a clear path out, down and out, away from your frame. Um, it allows an air a certain amount of airflow behind your cladding. Now that's uh we've sort of been guided by uh legislation, certainly in New Zealand. So uh without going too technical, the the amount of airflow in order to deem a cavity well vented and drained is 1,000 square millimeters per lineal meter, which is uh you can achieve why having you know multiple grooves that add up to about a thousand. When you hear that number, you're like, holy shit, that's enormous, but it's square millimeters. Square millimeters, that's right. So it's not, it's uh it sounds a lot more than it actually is, but it's not nothing. So it um uh and you can achieve that obviously by having a total air movement across the baton. It's got to be evenly distributed, so you obviously don't have one area of the wall that's really well ventilated and another area that's not ventilated at all, um, which you can achieve by evenly distributing grooves on either side of the material. So our products all achieve or all of our wall products achieve 2,000 square millimeters of ventilation, um, which will comply with certainly all of your uh your upcoming ventilation requirements. Um and you know, exceeding that is also a good option basically for giving you know as much airflow as you can.
SPEAKER_05:The more the better. It's clear. So um, yeah, not only is it helping with moisture management, it's also helping with the heating and cooling of the home. Yes by getting that air movement. Yeah. Um, there's there's a lot of parts of this. So, like obviously, like Nick's here today to talk about his product. Um, I'm going to be talking about this sort of thing a lot on my podcast from now on because it it is a whole system. You've got to have the building wrap, you've got to have the batons, you've got to have uh clav cavity closes, you've got a vermin proof. Like, there's there's a there's a lot of parts to it to do it well. Um, and we've definitely been getting better and better every job we've been doing over the last sort of two, two and a half years. Um, but one of the things I've noticed, Nick, on our jobs, and um, we haven't got a completed new build with Nick's product yet. We uh we're very close to it. We're going to be starting one. Uh we've got Windows showing up on a job in about 10 weeks or so. So we will have a full high-end three-story uh multi-million dollar home that we'll be using this on and um getting a really good finish. Um, but up until I found you and your product, uh, we've been using a CCA um 20mm button.
SPEAKER_04:Yep.
SPEAKER_05:And even just using that, I can't believe the difference in our homes pre-plastering. Yep. Like we get the building wrapped up, the building has time to uh dry out and acclimatize like all the timber, like we build lightweight. So um, and the best example of that is a job that we've literally plastered in the last three weeks. Uh, it sat through all the rain we got in Queensland earlier this year, got absolutely saturated, and we were a little bit concerned about mould uh growing. Yep. Um so but being able to get the roof on, use a Proclimber product, and then working on the outside of the home, getting all the batten on, getting all the cladding on, and then all the rough end work happening on the inside. So it was sitting there for like a super large home, so it was sitting there for a considerable amount of time. The the you can smell it, like it just it well, there is no smell. Like it's it's um like have being able to breathe while also being watertight, yes, letting and then we moisture test all of our jobs now before we um put any internal wall linings on.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah.
SPEAKER_05:But then even now that it's plastered, like I feel like the house is performing better than any like better than our previous projects even now, and it's not even finished. Well, there you go.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, yeah, absolutely. It makes sense.
SPEAKER_05:Well, it would be, yeah, yeah, absolutely. But but just I did well you I've never realized how I guess and I guess I'm probably taking more notice of it now, but um especially through summers here in Queensland when we we like let's face it, we get lots of storms, we quite often get a lot of wet weather. I guess I didn't really take enough notice of that sort of misty smell in the jobs. Yeah, and now that it's not there, I'm like, man, like this this is far more, like this is bigger than what I think. Yes. Um and so even just noticing that now, and again, that's why I'm on this mission to be uh one of Australia's leading healthy home builders, yeah. Like where the homes we build, I never realized until obviously getting onto these cavity systems and things how much our homes affect our health. Yes. And I know you're pretty passionate about that.
SPEAKER_02:Absolutely. Look, they um they certainly do, and I think it's one of the things that's uh which is a very good thing that's now started to become a bit more of a of a conversation. Um, whether it's at a selection end or you know, obviously you're something that you're promoting with your clients, but it's really important, and it's it's you know, we spend a lot of time in our homes, and it's important that they are a healthy place to be.
SPEAKER_05:Yeah. Um, so back to talking about your product. It you mentioned a couple of times, it's structural. Yes. Um one thing I love about it is it's LVL. Yes. So it's it's size and its straightness and all those types of things are amazing. Yes, absolutely. Um, but look, like I said, I haven't used it yet, but I can already see the benefits of it being structural. At the moment, using a 20 mil, like we've got to make sure all of our framing's set out for our depending on the type of cladding we're using, yes, to make sure that the baton's got full support behind it. Whereas yours is basically like putting another stud over the outside.
SPEAKER_02:Exactly right. That was probably the main rationale for the product in the first place was to do away with the need for a second structural provision in behind your ventilation uh baton. Um, so LVL obviously has a unique set of mechanical properties that allow it to be uh you know smaller primarily. So we've got a 50 and a 70mm product, depending on wind region, that will um that will span across either a 450 or a 600 frame. 50 millimeter will do mostly uh everything up to N3 on both sort of frame centers. But just that simple provision of having to not having to worry about um exactly like you say, frame layout and allowing for a cross a horizontal cross member to support a uh ventilated baton is a massive time saving. And that was that was really the the reason that we sort of wanted to develop this was to save time, have a one size fits all component that goes straight on the wall without too much extra rework.
SPEAKER_05:Yeah. So what can it span? Like if you if you're running this uh vertically for uh weatherboard, let's say weatherboard cladding, yep, what how far can it span?
SPEAKER_02:So we have a different product for weatherboard, um, which is uh 42 by 35 runs vertically. Uh that'll span 1350, so up to a um on a you know, two seven wall, top plate, middle, bottom plate, that'll that'll standard span across that. Uh these ones are obviously designed to run horizontally, so 600 max max spacing for uh for all the wall buttons.
SPEAKER_05:Mate, I'm really excited about the vertical ones. Like the last um probably three to four jobs that we've done the way we're currently doing it, has there's been an enormous amount of labor. Yeah. Um, and as what as much as the team try to get everything right and um get everything set out during um while we're stick framing to get like make sure we um have solid stud work behind all the joins and all those types of things, you're always going back and putting timber in here, there, and everywhere. Yes. Um the fact now that we can just go through, mark all our frames out, get all our junctions, all our priority studs in place, and then just space everything out at 450 centres, um, and then just come through and put our rows and nogs in. Yep. Um, and this stuff, like when we do that come to doing this, we'll just be able to nail it top, bottom, and center. Yep. We'll screw it. Yep. Um is just going to save enormous amounts of time and material.
SPEAKER_02:Absolutely, absolutely. And I think so. If we're talking also about uh horizontal application, you're not necessarily guessing where your fasteners are going because you know there's a a straight run of baton all the way along your wall, which again, you know, in terms of uh takes the guesswork out of your fixing method.
SPEAKER_05:Yeah. Um because you're you're also working with a company to supply fixings for these, aren't you?
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, so as uh we've got um we've got so we've got a list of generic fixings that we supply for this. Basically, so normal, normal fasteners out of your normal um fastener array. But uh we also yeah, we're looking at um a few different screws from Simpson Strong Tie, which are collated screws. So they're basically part of their um quick drive system to allow speed of install across the uh across the batons. So they're also really great, really good quality product.
SPEAKER_05:Yeah, awesome. We use our gear a lot. So we've got a collated gun. So you'll you'll have a have they got that now? Is that something you're working on? The collated screw for these?
SPEAKER_02:No, that we've we've that's all on that's all ready to go. So we've got we've got two, depending on whether it's you know timber or steel frame, two fasteners to go on either. So yeah, absolutely.
SPEAKER_05:Unreal. Yeah. Um so mate, tell you've got a roof button as well. Yes. And at this stage in my building business, when we're not using um, we're not going for passive house, so we're not putting the full wrap over the roof and those types of things. But I'd really like your baton. Everyone else I've seen uh having to do counterbatten, yes, that you've developed a baton that you only basically need the one button.
SPEAKER_02:Absolutely. So look, it was uh I'd say that two parts for the wall button and exact same sort of rationale for the roof button. Wall batten, we were trying to simplify uh needing a structural sub-provision for your ventilation uh material, and also trying to simplify on it on a counterbatten method. So obviously, for and I'm sure that many of your listeners under are well aware of the counterbatten process, but having a vertical and horizontal counterbatten um to achieve an air gap in behind your cladding, it's excellent for ventilation, absolutely. It does a great job of ventilating.
SPEAKER_05:Just to explain it for the roof, because again, a lot of the listeners are still very new to this and asking lots of questions. So, but typically on a roof scenario, you have to use a counterbatten, don't you?
SPEAKER_02:Uh yeah, to in order to achieve ventilation over your membrane, absolutely, you've got to have a counterbatten. Now, in this instance, uh what that sort of is, you have a packer type button to provide your air gap up from your roof, and then a horizontal baton like you would have a normal roof button. Um this sort of you know combines them. So you've got your ventilation built into your roof button. Again, it's a structural LVL, so it'll free span across your uh rafters, you know, as a normal roof button would. Um, but also it gives you that that ventilation.
SPEAKER_05:Yeah, so you the bottom of the baton has all the grooves in it. Yes. So by just planting it on top of the membrane, any moisture that's traveling down the roof can still track through all those. That's right.
SPEAKER_02:So instead of having uh instead of having a beveled edge, obviously, because it it is actually in a in a situation where the pitch of the roof will allow your moisture to fall away, it just goes straight on. Like very much like you'd pitch a tile roof. Um similar install, you know, you put your membrane down and your batons straight on.
SPEAKER_05:Yeah. Yeah, no, there's so many, definitely so many benefits to using it. Um one of the ones that I it's been a little bit controversial on some of the posts I've been doing recently on my socials, um, talking about the treatment. Sure. Um, and look, this is I guess I've been lucky, but this is I'll put my hand up and say, like, this is actually something I wasn't aware of um a few years ago. It's only I've only become aware of it in the last sort of 12 to 18 months. But a lot of membranes react with certain treatments that if they come in contact with them. So you certainly can. How um, and look, I'm just lucky. I I reached out to some guys down Victoria that have been doing this for years when I was getting started with it, uh, they would they told me the best product to use was CCA um timber, which is uh correct me if I'm wrong, it's pressure treated, isn't it? CCA. Um so the CCA isn't reactive to the building wrap. Um, but I'm sure there's a lot of people out there that have put uh LOSP or other treatments against their building wrap. You're using a waterborne product, aren't you? Yeah. And what sort of treatment level does that get you?
SPEAKER_02:So it gives you a H3, a full, a full H3. So this material is robust externally. Now, obviously, it's not in an external application, but it's it's a H3, a fully certified H3 process. Waterborne, um, so you you know you you mitigate your reactivity issues. Uh but yeah, absolutely. I mean, a H3 is important for us uh in terms of longevity. I mean, it's a structural material, it is in a moisture environment. We want to bulletproof it against anything moisture related. So H3 treatment is is excellent for that, um, but we also don't want it to react with anything that's underneath it. So we've we've elected to use waterborne treatment across our range, which um which uh yeah, has served us well. Uh and it's also you know, it's a really good quality treatment process, which um we're confident in.
SPEAKER_05:I'd imagine that's better for the environment as well, isn't it? Uh look, I believe so. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Um, but the other so on that, uh, a lot of people have been telling me that I'm I don't need to be using a treated batten. And I'd I argue with them on this. I personally my personal opinion is like a lot of what we're talking about is to do with moisture. Yes. So there is moisture in that cavity. That's right. And look, I don't know if it's people that haven't had enough experience in the industry or maybe haven't seen uh what happens to timber when it fails from moisture. Like untreated timber doesn't need a lot of moisture to fail.
SPEAKER_00:Yes.
SPEAKER_05:Um, so to me it's a no-brainer. Like you if you're using a uh timber product in a cavity that is dealing with moisture, it should be treated.
SPEAKER_02:Look, I I I completely agree. Um particularly, I mean, I can speak certainly with with regard to our structural material, being an LVL. If there's any, and timber and water of timber of any description and water are not the best of friends, as we all know, but um any any latent moisture that may dwell in the cavity. I mean, we uh obviously with the shape and profile of material, or and I'll probably broaden that out to any ventilated cavity for that matter, whether it be it our product or any other way to achieve cavity ventilation, it is a far more ideal circumstance for timber to be in because it's got airflow, right? That that isn't that is a much better situation for it to be in. Having said that, uh we might have a wet week, met wet month, for example, uh, where that moisture can't fully dissipate. Um I personally would like my especially a structural timber to be uh galvanized against that, you know, to be to be treated, to be H3 treated, to be uh robust in that circumstance.
SPEAKER_05:Well, my my theory is like if we want to truly build healthy homes, we have to be building buildings that are lasting hundreds of years, not 30 or 40 or 50. Yep. Um and to me, an untreated piece of timber won't last that long in a cavity. Um and again, I'm this. Is I just I go down all these rabbit holes. I I just I drive myself crazy. Like my wife reckons she can hear me thinking when I'm sleeping, but um like you've only got to look at a any timber product that you may have outside your home. Like even if it's not in a fully wet environment, but like a a piece of outdoor furniture, or um I guess I've got some examples around my place. Like we could live on acreage, we've got a lot of gardening tools, rakes and things, like anything that is left outside deteriorates quite quickly. And even if it's not getting wet all the time, like just different times of the year, like you think about it, you go outside and you've you've got a bit of moisture um on your grass, a bit of jewel something, like there's always moisture around. Yeah, so yeah, like I said, to me, it's a no-brainer, like to get considering that it's in a cavity where we're dealing with moisture that's coming out through the wall and moisture that is coming in through uh the external claddings, um to last the the test of time, which to me should be hundreds of years, it it needs to be treated.
SPEAKER_02:Absolutely, and where you know treatment technology has also come a very long way. Um, and those those processes are getting better and better. So, and and to me, it's it's not a not a major step to make to to sort of like I said, use the word galvanized, you know, but but to to future proof that material, you know, it's um it's I I believe it's worth doing. And certainly something that we've uh we've you know, it's core to our product is having a robust H3 treatment across the board.
SPEAKER_05:Yeah. I'm probably putting you on the spot here, but like I know LVL's have been around for a very long time. Like what is the life expectancy of an LVL in the right environment?
SPEAKER_02:Uh depending on it, so these have lifetime. So depending on uh it it really depends on manufacturers and those sorts of things. But um LVL if detailed correctly should last for a very, very long time.
SPEAKER_05:Yeah, like if it if it's in the right environment, it's it's kept out of moisture, it I would imagine it's a piece of timber, it's gonna last forever.
SPEAKER_02:Yes. Yeah, look, it again, it's um it does depend on a on a few different factors, but uh the detail around it and how it's installed is very important. But um, I mean, especially now that LVL, you know, a lot of LVL components are becoming much more popular. Um it's yeah, it's certainly something that needs to be treated correctly, but if it is, it should last for a very long time.
SPEAKER_05:Yeah, I know sustainability is a word that gets thrown around a lot these days. Like uh are your batons sustainably made?
SPEAKER_02:Absolutely, absolutely. So look, we uh have been very selective about the origin of the raw material. Um uh, you know, to do with uh sustainability as far as forestry, um, all those types of uh practices are important to us. Um but LVL as a concept is a very sustainable way to make timber products. So again, I would give a very brief crash course in laminated materials.
SPEAKER_05:But it's I'm sure our listeners are love this. Like we, if they're anything like me, like I'd really like to know about the products I'm using. So go for go for goal.
SPEAKER_02:So uh a way an LVL is made, so we personally don't actually manufacture the LVL, we we process the raw material into the shape that you see there. But an LVL is made by probably the best way to describe it is matching a giant pencil sharpener. So whole logs go into an enormous pencil sharpener, you know, uh lathe sort of setup. And basically the veneer is peeled from the log as it spins. So in terms of recovery of resource, you get a lot, you get an excellent return from the amount of log that's used, which is uh in itself is a great practice. Um again in that space, technology in in recovery of the resource itself has come leaps and bounds. Um and you're leading manufacturers of LVL around the world are trying to find ways to make that that the resource recovery side of it as good as possible, which I think is fantastic. I think it I think it's a really good way to use you know, timber, which is in itself a renewable resource. Um I think I think the manufacturing of LVL is a really good way to sort of recover that. So there's there's that side of things. Um uh it's all plantation grown, so it's all sustainably, sustainably grown. Um but absolutely, yeah, absolutely. Timber as a as a whole is a is a sustainable material, it's a true sustainable, uh, which is something that I I think is now getting its time in the sun, which is fantastic. I think timber as a as a whole is sort of starting to get a bit more of a mainstream focus. I've started to notice a lot more timber in you know commercial construction and the whole concept of mass timber and cross land timber and all those sorts of things are starting to become more prevalent, which I think is really good.
SPEAKER_05:I love it, man. Um it really excites me. To me, um, look, nothing against religion. I'm not I'm not really a religious person, never been to church and things, but I I do believe that everything on this planet's put here for a reason. Yep. And there is certain types of trees that have been put here for us to build things with. Yeah. Like, and so like having that plantation grown timber, like that's what it's for. Yeah, it's amazing. Like it's no good for anything else. Like it's um, but the um it excites me that they've been able to like LVL really, if they didn't use that timber to produce LVL, it's pretty useless for other things. Like they make it structural by the way they laminate it all together, don't they?
SPEAKER_02:Well, so the veneers are graded themselves. So every every every log that's peeled has a you know, the the veneers themselves have a have a structural or a density rating. But it is an amazing concept to think that if you peel something apart, lay it together and re-glue it, it comes back as a a strong, versatile building material. To me, that's something that's always fascinated me. Um and uh I I personally am of the belief that LVL as a as a raw material category has got uh a lot a lot further to go in our industry. Um I mean, one of the cornerstones for us, our our business sort of tagline is timber reimagined, which is what we're trying to sort of go for is actually taking a uh you know a material that's an excellent versatile building material and turn it into things that serve different purposes.
SPEAKER_05:Yeah, because of how much they recover, like um I've done a few trips down to the Hine uh Tumba Rumba sawmill and um a few different factories, I've been to an LVL factory and um the X Land factory, all those. And what excites me is the minimal waste. Yep. Like because an LVL, like when you think of just normal stick framing, like if you want a six-meter piece of timber, you've got to get a six, like a uh probably an eight or nine-meter straight piece of tree to be able to get that out of. So the old-fashioned way, I guess, that we've been building where we've always wanted the longest lengths of timber we we can get, um, isn't the most efficient way or the most efficient use of our forestry. But like when you consider that LVL can take any size tree and recover so much of that tree, and then by gluing it and laminating it all together, um, as you said, produce it back into a structural member that's probably stronger than where it started.
SPEAKER_02:Well, and and and into enormous, you know, very long, straight lengths. It's um it's incredible. It's incredible. So look, we're we're we as uh as a business are pretty um pretty adamant on the fact that it's it's got it's got long legs in our in our construction industry, and that that's already sort of taking shape as it currently stands. But um, yeah, but sustainability, it certainly is uh is a very good component of the of the material itself.
SPEAKER_05:Um so mate, we've we've covered a lot already. So we've we've talked about the um waterborne H3 treatment. Um I actually wrote down some notes today because I wanted to make sure we didn't forget anything because uh I am your this product really does excite me. Um we've talked about the like ventilated cavity and and why it's important to have a cavity batten system. Um we've talked a little bit about condensation. Uh we might just touch on that a little bit more. So uh condensation can come both ways, can't it? That's right.
SPEAKER_02:So the probably the two analogies I would use. Um, certainly for your your hot humid climates, you imagine like a can of soft drink, a cold can of soft drink out in the hot summer's day. You imagine the condensation that forms on the outside of that that can that's to do with moisture coming from the air that's sort of beating on the outside of that material. So the you I would liken that to a cooled, air-conditioned home. So humidity in the air will will bead on the outside of your membrane. Same sort of thing in in the hot, humid climates. In the in the cooler climates, it's more to do with uh moisture vapour that is formed inside the home.
SPEAKER_05:Yeah, so either way, you've like in any climate, you've got moisture getting into that cavity and sitting there. That's right. Yeah, and um, I guess that leads us into another one I want to talk about, which is uh um incoming changes to the NCC. Yep. So the Australian National Construction Code. Yep. Are you able to update us a little bit on that?
SPEAKER_02:Absolutely. So look, we and there has been it has been a little bit of a um uh I I've heard a lot of sort of mixed opinions about that as a concept. Uh certainly as far as we see it, the the NCC for 2025, which is currently sitting as proposed, was delayed. So it was meant to roll out a little bit earlier in the year. Uh it's been delayed. Um but at this very moment in time, it is the NCC for 2025 will proceed once it's finalised. We've talked about pausing the NCC from that point on. Our understanding is that the NCC will once 2025 is rolled out, from that point onwards, we'll see a pause up until mid-2029 is the current state of play. The proposed changes that are within that, uh, so certainly some stuff around energy efficiency. Um probably the one that relates most to the cavity ventilation and condensation side of things is for climate zones six through eight, which is the southern climates. So we have a little bit in Queensland, but most of uh it it sort of is primarily New South Wales, Victoria, Tasmania, and the southern part of Western Australia. Cooler climates, more or less. So six, seven, and eight um will require uh a vapor permeable membrane on on a lightweight frame.
SPEAKER_05:So these are these are coming in this year.
SPEAKER_02:Yes, yes. So they they're currently sitting as proposed. Uh, but when that is finalized, the changes are around climate zone six, seven, and eight requiring a drained vented cavity and requiring a vapor permeable membrane, among other things. But that those are certainly as far as it relates to condensation in your walls, those are a major uh component of that.
SPEAKER_05:Yeah. Um I'll just apologise, it's absolutely blowing a gale outside the shed today. You might be able to hear a bit of the uh the wind noise, but um because that you've clarified it for me, because I know um although I don't watch a lot of media or listen to it, I have heard a lot of um talk only in the last month or two that the changes are being put on hold.
SPEAKER_04:Yep.
SPEAKER_05:And so I thought it was all the changes. Yep. But um, from what you're my understanding from talking to you and some other people is that yeah, this is something that's happening. Like, and and very soon.
SPEAKER_02:Yes, and look, it's something also that's been flagged as important. So, look, our understanding is certainly that that 2025, once finalised, will roll ahead. Um, but probably more broadly, it's something that we as an industry have recognized as an important addition to our construction code. Um, so look, we've you know, we obviously have uh builders throughout the country that are adopting uh cavity ventilation as a as a concept, as a best practice measure. You know, it's it's something that people are more and more starting to realize that is um it's it's a good way to build. It's a very easy way, relatively speaking, to dissipate moisture in your home. Um so we have we're we've recognized that it's a it's a thing. Um and that's I think that's a really good step for our our code as well.
SPEAKER_05:Oh 100%, mate. And look, to be honest, I I'm definitely down a rabbit hole with it now, and I think it's an absolute no-brainer. Like it every single structure that is built should have a cavity system. Like once you understand why it's there, how it works, and probably for me, the biggest thing getting my head around was just breaking all like it was it was literally breaking 25 years of the industry and um knowledge that I'd been taught and learnt and been to seminars, um, and understanding that our cladding systems are not our waterproof layer. Like um, I know even just as an apprentice, my my employer just drummed it into me like getting all our cuts tight around uh flashings and over roofs and things, and like really trying hard to make our cladding watertight. Um and I think back now, like that was awesome, it taught me good quality and things, but it it was never ever gonna stop all the moisture getting in. And especially back like well, 28 years ago, like we were using the shitty old foil bloody and we and we weren't doing it anywhere near as good as what we probably should have been. Um But I one thing I really wanted to get see what your opinion on was like I'm a big believer is uh I'm a big believer in the building code should be our bare minimum. Yes. Like it shouldn't be something that builders are trying to aim for. Like it should be a bare minimum that we're trying to exceed and do better than. Um, what's your opinion on that?
SPEAKER_02:Look, I agree, I agree. Um, I have to say I I've in in recent times, particularly around the the new stuff that's that's starting to be proposed. So look at you know, energy efficiency and and then condensation management. I think um uh I was personally felt quite good about the fact that those those things are starting to get recognized. I think that's that it's it's a really good step. Um but absolutely I think I think we should always be striving for best practice regardless of where we sit in the industry. Um it's uh I mean for a lot of people uh for for many, you know, your home is it's not only a major investment, it's also where you spend a lot of your most of your time, you know, it's it's where you sleep, it's where you eat. All those things, for me personally, I I think that if I were if I had my you know hands on the levers as far as what was going into the production of my home, uh I'd want that to be as good as it could be, you know, within within reason. Um now I think that the code absolutely reflects that and is is uh is working towards reflecting that always, which I think is great. Um but absolutely I agree that you we should always be striving for best practice regardless.
SPEAKER_05:Yeah, and I think that's that was a big driver for me. Like now that I know what I know, I I'm doing it for multiple reasons, but the big driver for me um going down this rabbit hole and learning more about this um was to do with health. Yeah. Like and just starting to get that understanding that the homes that my building business is building play an enormous role on the health of the occupants of that that move into that house. Yes. Um, and obviously that like they now that's coming out in our building code, like it's pretty obvious that that there's signs out there that our homes are affecting um the health of people that live in them. Yes, especially with mould. Yes. Um and obviously the main contributor to mould is moisture. Absolutely. Um so yeah, I I am pretty concerned knowing what I know now about the next probably I don't know, five to fifteen years, I think. I I do feel we're gonna see a lot of homes uh that do suffer from a lot of uh mould and that type of thing. So I do think as builders, like I I take it very personally. I I believe it's my responsibility to make sure that I deliver my clients the best possible thing that I can. And now now understanding how much it's affecting their health, it it's my responsibility to make sure that I I'm using the best products, I'm reaching out to people like yourself, I'm I'm understanding more about the product you're you're using, like you're making, where it comes from, how it's made, how it performs. Yeah, so that I can make sure the product that I'm putting in my house is the best possible product I can use.
SPEAKER_03:Absolutely.
SPEAKER_05:Um yeah, I'm mate, I'm really excited to see uh where you guys end up. Yeah. Um, and I'm definitely look, I encourage all my listeners um that listen to this podcast to uh reach out to the guys. So where can they find you, mate? What's the best way?
SPEAKER_02:We're in hardware's around Australia. So if um if you want to contact your sort of your local timber and hardware business, they should be able to give us a call and we'll be able to figure something out.
SPEAKER_05:Yeah, but like if they want to go online and look your own. Oh, yeah, absolutely.
SPEAKER_02:So our uh everything's Highwood Timber across the board. So our website is highwood.com.au, um highwood timber on Instagram and Facebook.
SPEAKER_05:Yeah, we're gonna ramp his fa his Instagram up, guys. We'll get some more shit going on there. Absolutely, absolutely. This um this next job that we're doing, we're we're gonna be using uh all the wall products, so we'll definitely be doing some video and and talking about a lot. So stay tuned for that. But um, mate, I I really thank you for taking the time out to uh come on and and have a chat about this.
SPEAKER_01:Oh thank you very much. I really appreciate it.
SPEAKER_05:Um, it's definitely something that I want to see um in more jobs and see more people using. Uh I'm really excited about it. I I can see the value it's gonna add to my jobs. Yep. Um just one last thing before we wrap it up that I've had on my notes here that we didn't get to. The using a baton system also helps your R value, doesn't it?
SPEAKER_02:Yes, yeah. So there's there's sort of two concepts in that space um still air and moving air. But either way, if you've got if you've got um air itself is a good insulator. So air layers in in any sort of context add to your thermal performance of your wall. Still air is actually better than moving air, but in order to keep the cavity dry, you need the air to be moving. So it's it's a bit of a uh I suppose double-edged sword in that sense. But either way, it certainly improves the thermal value of your wall. Uh the probably what I would use as again an analogy in that is imagine like a puffer jacket. So, you know, we think about the the air sort of pockets around a puffer jacket, a very similar concept for an insulated wall. Obviously, we've got the the bats to provide insulation, but an air gap is also just a really effective way to bolster that that performance. So, yeah, absolutely it can.
SPEAKER_05:It's exciting to see where it's going to end up. Like when you consider the role that technology is playing in our industry now, yeah. Um across the board, like in like forestry, manufacturing, uh, I imagine like even the gluing and gluing process and all those types of things.
SPEAKER_02:Like, oh, absolutely. It's it's uh the technology in in all those industries is is growing at at exactly the same rate, you know. I we're um we're the lucky recipient of the the finished product, which comes in a very nice, neat setup. But oh, it's it's incredible to see how it's how it's made. And um I think more broadly, all the technology that's going into timber now and the fact that timber's starting to get a bit of a look in in the commercial world, I think it's also really exciting. I mean, you don't have to look too far outside of Australia to see uh and even within Australia, there's I was down in Victoria recently and saw a um an opening to a tunnel which has been built out of CLT, which is incredible. Big uh, you know, sort of commercial infrastructure projects that are now starting to incorporate, you know, mass timber as a concept. I think in general that's that's excellent. I mean, from a from a carbon standpoint, it's it's fantastic as far as it you know embodied carbon um in the production. Yeah, I mean, for for for a long list of reasons, I I feel like it's it's an exciting sort of material that we're just now starting to get you know full exposure to, which is great.
SPEAKER_05:Awesome, mate. Well, yeah, look, like I said, the other exciting thing is I've seen where you guys end up with this. Like I know you um I'm sure you won't stop at these first few products. There'll be uh more Highwood LVL products coming, I'm sure.
SPEAKER_02:Absolutely, absolutely. It's um yeah, we're we're certainly trying to uh to push the envelope with what we can come up with here. But um, yeah, absolutely. There will be more.
SPEAKER_05:Love it. Well, mate, look, thanks very much for coming on the podcast. Um, I really appreciate your time. Guys, get behind the guys at Highwood. Uh, if you're if you're building healthy homes already or or passive homes and you're using cavity batten systems, like seriously, this product is an absolute no-brainer. Um, like I said, it's the the best one that I've come across. Um, I believe in it a lot. Uh, they've taken you've taken care of everything that we need to try and deal with. Like, um, so and it's off the shelf. So um, guys, get behind them. As always, look, make sure you go to the DwaynePearce.com um website, purchase your merch, get behind the level up movement, uh, and continue to make this Australia's number one construction podcast. We'll see you on the next one. All right, guys, I want to introduce you to a really exciting new product that I believe is going to play a massive role in Australia building healthier homes. As you all know, I am extremely passionate about healthy homes and I'm doing a lot of research and putting a lot of time and effort into making sure my construction business is leading the way when it comes to building healthy homes here in Australia. We've teamed up with the guys from Highwood Timber. Highwood Timber are pioneering condensation management with their high flow ventilated LVL baton system. High flow battons give builders a stronger, straighter, and smarter way to create a ventilated cavity behind cladding and underneath roofs without compromising on structural performance. While tackling condensation to improve building health and ease of insulation, highwood battons are built to perform. When it comes to dealing with condensation and ventilation, high flow battons will help you create continuous ventilated cavities behind all your cladding and underneath your roof sheeting. They reduce condensation risk and support healthier, longer lasting buildings. Highwood timber battons are also in alignment with the proposed NCC condensation management requirements as well as passive house ventilation requirements. Being an engineered LVL product, they are stronger, straighter, and more dimensionally stable than a solid material such as pine. This helps resist warping, twisting, and shrinkage, ensuring more consistent installs less prone to splitting than solid timber. Howwood timber battons are precisely manufactured, meaning that your installation will be faster and easier than other products on the market. The part that I like the most about these battons are they are H3 treated for long-term protection against decay and turmoiles. They use a waterborne H3 treatment which reduces reactivity with membranes and adhesives when compared to LOSP. These are the exact battens that you want to be using on your homes and your builds if you are considering building healthier homes or passive homes. Check 'em out. How would Timber products?