Building Beyond Code: How Smart Builders Create Healthier Homes ft. Jess Kismet | Level Up Podcast

Join us for an insightful episode of Level Up as we sit down with Jess from ClimaSure to explore the world of building biology and healthy home construction. 

Discover how proper building practices, moisture management, and ongoing education can make a difference in the quality and health of our homes. Jess shares her journey, expertise, and practical advice for builders and homeowners, covering topics like mold prevention, the importance of vapor barriers, and the latest in building science. 

Whether you’re a builder, homeowner, or just passionate about creating healthier living spaces, this episode is packed with valuable information and real-world examples. Don’t miss out on tips, industry insights, and inspiring stories that can help you level up your approach to building and home design! 

Chapters

• 0:00 Meet Jess And The Mission
• 3:42 From Design Aesthetics To Building Science
• 8:02 Homes And Health: Why It Matters
• 11:42 Building Biology And Hidden Mould
• 16:52 Heat, Air, Moisture And Climate Zones
• 25:58 Codes, Membranes And Liability
• 32:08 Moisture Testing And Site Practices
• 38:28 Risk, Class Actions And Mold Index
• 44:28 What A WUFI Simulation Really Shows
• 50:28 Inside ClimaShore’s Toolkit
• 55:58 Training, CPD And Industry Gaps

Transcript

SPEAKER_02: 1:28

G'day guys, welcome back to another episode of Level Up. We are back online today for an episode on Riverside because we have Jess from Climbershore with us. So I'm pretty excited about this one today. Jess and I have been talking a little bit lately. We've got some good projects coming up together, and I'm really keen to dive into more about the building biology and uh what it is Jess does at Climbershore. So uh how are you, Jess?

SPEAKER_00: 1:51

I'm good, thanks, Dwayne. Thanks for having me on.

SPEAKER_02: 1:54

Look, really appreciate you uh taking the time out to jump on today. I know you've got a pretty hectic schedule. I've been um actually, one thing I didn't mention is Jess has a really good podcast as well. So uh make sure you go and check that out. Do you want to give your podcast a plug?

SPEAKER_00: 2:08

Oh sure, sure. Yeah. Um I do a podcast called the Building Soology Potty. Uh people get confused about the name, they think it's Scientology or sociology or some other variation, but it's a word that I made up and it's a combination of science and biology. So building science and building biology, I cited it back in January. I release an episode every two weeks, and I just like to get people on for some good chats to spread information.

SPEAKER_02: 2:32

You've just had uh my mate Matt Reisinger on recently. That was a very good episode.

SPEAKER_00: 2:36

Yeah, I have, yeah. It was yeah, he's um got a lot of good content himself, a lot of good information, and it was a good chat.

SPEAKER_02: 2:45

Excellent. So, Jess, before we get into more about building biology and I guess what you do at Climate Shore and uh how you help hundreds of builders and homeowners get better homes. Can we talk a little bit about your background and how you got into doing what you're doing?

SPEAKER_00: 2:59

Yeah, sure. Um, my background is actually uh in a past life I was married to a builder. So, Jade, if you're listening, g'day. Uh and um at the time I I'd actually got into this a bit later in life. I'd been to uni and studied something that I never actually ended up using. Um I'd been doing a few things, worked in our building company, um, raising children, and I really I got to a point where I I needed to choose a direction. So I I tried a few things out and then I thought, well, why don't I just design houses and he can build them? Uh it seemed like a logical thing to do. So I went into TAFE and I did a um diploma of building design, but through that process I we quickly came upon some energy efficiency and sustainability subjects, and pretty much from there my my career took a completely different trajectory because I decided and knew um that it was much more important to me how buildings worked than how they looked, and I just wanted to do things that made sense and get it right from the start. So um it became uh it, you know, that that whole rabbit hole thing that everyone talks about in this game, it became that for me very, very quickly. And I started doing things like going on to tiny home. I found projects locally. There was a tiny home build going on. I went and did some volunteer work there. I went and did some volunteering on an earth ship build that was happening here in South Australia. And um I got a job during my study um doing energy efficiency uh against the building code compliance assessments. And um, I stayed there, that was a great job, met a lot of really great people through that work. Um, and uh through that process, though, I I sort of came to understand that sometimes what gets built is not what has been designed or what has been assessed by us as energy efficiency assessors. And, you know, my whole motivation for going into this career was to get it right from the start, and I started to get a bit frustrated by that. So uh someone in my company started some blower dog testing work, and immediately I was like, I want to do that. So I got permission from my work to go and learn how to do that, and then from there it just snowballed. Um you can't learn about airtightness without learning about the knock-on effects of um condensation and mold and things like that. So I started working for Climber Shore about four years ago. Uh and did from when I started that role is when I did my passive house designer certification and uh consolidated some of my hydrothermal simulation qualifications, the WOOFI program. Um and yeah, I've just been growing Climbershore for the last four years, and it's it's my dream job.

SPEAKER_02: 5:47

That's awesome, Jess. And uh as the listener just heard, you've definitely got some qualifications behind it to be doing what you're doing. I I love that you um like the whole building industry would be a better place if more people focused on uh better building than how the design looked, like how the building looks. I thought that was a good comment. Um and it's I don't know, I'm a big believer in everything happens for a reason. Like it's um it's cool that you were heading down one path, but you found a passion and that's led you to where you are now.

SPEAKER_00: 6:16

Yeah, I definitely had more of an English brain in school. Um I never thought I'd find myself in in a more technical sciencey space, but um yeah, it it's um it's it's very technical, but it's also about the people uh and the health of the occupants of these homes and the the outcomes for their families. So um yeah, I I couldn't imagine a better role for me right now, personally.

SPEAKER_02: 6:38

No, well that's definitely a good um segue into learning more about what you do, is that our homes affect our health, don't they?

SPEAKER_00: 6:46

They certainly do in many ways.

SPEAKER_02: 6:49

So yeah, and I think that's definitely become apparent with especially the changes that are now starting to come into the NCC, the National Construction Code. They're um they're putting two and two together. And I'm not I know you do, but I know personally myself, like I take being a builder very seriously, and like now that when you get this information put in front of you, you can't ignore it.

SPEAKER_00: 7:09

Yeah, once you know this stuff, you can't unknow it, and that's the beauty of it. And um it's I call it light bulb moments when you start to explain these things to a new client when you go and do their first blow or door test and they start to realise how many areas of of a building envelope actually leak, or you show them on a thermal camera what missing insulation looks like. Um or they start to they start to Google things and it becomes if if you're a person who really uh cares about those sorts of outcomes, then it's um it's something that just I'm still learning. I there is so much for me still to learn, uh, and I love that. Um but it certainly becomes addictive and it becomes um it becomes the the new way once you once you know it. So uh it's definitely addictive. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 8:00

I think like every every day is a school day. Like there is so much to know. So tell us a little bit, like, and look, I'm very green on all this as well. Like, I'm definitely no expert. I I do do a lot of videos on my um on my socials about the work we do on my construction sites, but it's more to like I would like to educate people, spread the message, but encourage people to like if I'm doing something not quite right or I can do it better, like let me know. Call me out, let's have a conversation about it. I think that's how the industry will improve if we're all sharing our knowledge, our experiences, and and then collaborating together to get better outcomes. Um, but I am very, very green about building biology. I'm not um as you're well aware, like I'm a I'm a huge fan of Paula Baker Laporte and all her work and her knowledge and her books. Um and I started to get a lot better understanding of it when I spent some time with her. But can you tell us more about because my listeners won't know what building biology is. Can you give us a bit of a rundown?

SPEAKER_00: 9:01

Yeah, well, building biology is um the health of any building structure and how it affects the health of the occupants. So uh I started studying, I started some study towards building uh advanced diploma in building biology, I'll be over 12 months ago now. Um I'm doing it whilst I'm working and whilst I'm, you know, looking after my family. So I'm doing it part-time. I've done just about to finish my second subject. The first two subjects that I have completed are all around mould and mold testing and remediation and post-remediation verification. So what that means is um you can't see or smell most mould. And that is it's a bit of a frightening notion. Um so what the mould testing technician will do is go into a house with uh a pump and they'll go in with some tapes, and it's it's about sampling the air in the home and it's about sampling surfaces. So when you have moisture damage inside any home, uh it only takes 48 hours for mould to start to grow. So if you have either repetitive condensation issues because you've got cold spots, uh meaning steel, aluminium frame windows, insulation that is not complete, meaning that you have uh you have cold surfaces in your home, and then you have a combination of that plus warm, humid air inside. Those two factors coming together, just like when you take a cold can of coke out of the fridge, um, that cold surface comes into contact with the air inside your home, and that can create it creates condensation. Now, those coke cans are very cold, and we're not necessarily going to get surfaces that are that cold inside our homes. Um, however, you can still create, I mean, actually, aluminium frame windows are a prime example of a a spot that can get that cold in your home and will up will in the the wrong conditions will create a lot of moisture damage inside the building envelope. Um, I've seen many a window frame crying, uh, and then the window seals get damaged and they they grow mold. This can also happen on on curtains, uh, where you have condensation happening on on a window and the curtains are in front of that window, and that humid that humidity in between the window and the curtain happens over a long period. The curtains grow mould, and then every time you open up the curtains, the mold spores dissipate into the air, and you can't see them. They're invisible. But once that happens, they're airborne and you breathe them into your system. So a building biologist or a mould testing technician will come into any house and they will take air samples to find out if there is any airborne mould in the in the air in the building, and they'll also take surface samples to find out if there's any mold spores resting on any surfaces. Um and this is how we can sort of determine the the extent of a mould problem.

SPEAKER_02: 12:11

It's all um like it's all an outcome of the environment, isn't it? Like uh one thing that Paula really highlighted for me is that our our homes are living, breathing things.

SPEAKER_01: 12:21

They work as a system. Yes.

SPEAKER_02: 12:23

Yeah, and just like out in Mother Nature, like you have you have dry forest, you have eucalypt forest, you have really wet rain forest, um, and different plants in those environments um react and grow very differently, and our like our homes are very similar. Like your homes perform very differently, whether they're in a dry climate zone or whether they're in a real wet and cool climate zone.

SPEAKER_00: 12:49

Um that sort of and air, heat, and moisture are the three factors we really need to consider when designing a healthy or moisture-resilient envelope. And it's often said that we don't need these sorts of high-performing envelopes in Australia because we don't have these extreme snowy climates. Um but heat heat, air, and moisture are in the environment, no matter what climate you're in, and they will impact the building envelope differently. Uh, and so understanding where those three things are is really important to the durability and health of the homes and and buildings that we live and work in.

SPEAKER_02: 13:30

Yeah, I'll look I'm I'll put my hand up. Like I sort of ignored or didn't think much of this for a long time. Like we've only sort of been on this healthy home journey for probably a bit over three and a half years or so. And um I'm still not completely sold on the whole full passive home, but um I've definitely learned like a lot of and I I hear it from builders all up here in Brisbane and and warmer climate saying that it's not necessary to do our cavity patterns and use a better wraps and those types of things. But like correct me if I'm wrong, but like it's just as important to do it here as it is to do it in a cold climate. Like cold climate you're dealing with very cool air outside externally, which and then most people are heating the inside of their home. Whereas up here we've got a real generally we've got a real dry, hot air outside, and we're cooling the inside home. So it's it's the same effect, but in reverse.

SPEAKER_00: 14:26

In a different direction.

unknown: 14:27

Yep.

SPEAKER_02: 14:28

In a different direction, yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 14:29

Yeah. So under the National Construction Code, if you are in climate zones four, five, six, seven, or eight, you need to use a vapor permeable membrane. So climate zone is basically the whole southern half of the country. Um, and the reason for that is that, as you have been describing, the vapor drive, what we call vapor drive, comes from inside a home in the colder climates. So you've got warm, humid air developing inside a home because people are breathing, cooking, washing, um, all those sorts of things inside a house. Uh, and as the building code regulations and energy efficiency requirements are increasing over the years, we are inadvertently creating more airtight building envelopes by accident, because windows are getting better, building ceiling regulars are getting tighter. Uh and when we have humidity inside, particularly in bathrooms and kitchens, if we don't have sufficient extraction, the humidity can build up in those areas and it can infiltrate the rest of the home as well. Uh, and that then gets into the wall cavity because we have penetrations in our walls. We've got plumbing and electrical penetrations all through our homes. We've got 20, 30 powerpoints potentially, depending on how big the house is. We've got downlight penetrations, we've got exhaust fan penetrations, and sometimes they're not always uh, you know, those exhaust fans are in older homes especially dumping hot humid air into the roof. And what happens is what's called interstitial condensation. So an interstitial space is a void, either inside the wall cavity or inside the roof cavity. And the hot humid air will come into contact in a cold climate with a cold surface on the outside of the building envelope, whether that's the roof sheets or whether that's the external cladding, or a a foil, a foil product or a wrap product that's been installed on the outside of the wall. And when that warm humid air comes into contact with a cold surface, it creates condensation because it re th those two things interact and create a dew point. Um in 2019 the building code changed to implement vapor a vapor permeability requirement for these building wraps. The main purpose of these wraps is to protect the frame during construction. That's why they were implemented in the first place. But because they stay on the building for the life of the building, they need to actually be able to release the vapor if and when it gets caught inside that interstitial space. So in the colder climates, that vapor drive is coming from inside, that warm, humid air is drive pushing from inside to outside. And then it can, if the correct membrane is used, it can easily move out. Up in the more warm and humid climates, the vapor drive is coming from outside. So the warm humid air is outside, the air conditioning and the cooling is happening inside. And so rather than having a vapor permeable membrane, you have a vapor barrier to stop that hot, humid air from getting into the interstitial spaces from outside. So whether you're in a cold climate or a warm climate, heat air and moisture are still going to be impacting your building. You just have to understand which direction it's going in and how to mitigate that risk. And then in some climates, um, Brisbane is actually, although it's hot and humid a lot of the year, um, it's another one where, and Adelaide is the same where I am. We have we have uh a warm season and a cold season. So we actually have vapor drive going in both directions. Down here in South Australia, we actually don't have much humidity, so we have a lower risk here in the warmer months. Um, but yeah, understanding where that vapor drive is coming from is um is key to managing condensation risk.

SPEAKER_02: 19:22

I think a big thing with all this, and again I'll put my hand up for it, like a you shy away because you you hear this stuff getting talked about and you think, oh shit, I don't need to know about that. I I'm just gonna bury my head in the sand, I'll keep doing what I'm doing, but uh because it's all too technical. But when you deal with people like yourself or Ben Jackson, um Stewie Shelton, like there's a lot of people out there, there's heaps of people on social media now that are sort of talking about this sort of stuff a lot, it's actually not as complicated as what some people think it is. And like as builders, it's our responsibility to understand this stuff because we're the ones that are delivering our clients these homes, that they're gonna start a family, bring up a family, retire in whatever the case is. So yeah, and like especially these days with the amount of time that people spend inside their houses. I think this stuff's just so important. Um and we should be like all builders and tradies should be taking it more seriously um about the environments that we're creating that our clients are going to be living in.

SPEAKER_00: 20:26

100%, Dwayne. You know, you guys are all um professionals, builders are professionals, and unfortunately, there is no compulsory continuing professional development for builders anywhere except for New South Wales, uh New South Wales and Tasmania. And even in those states, I don't believe it's too rigorously um addressed. So you guys get your trade at 20 and um then you get your builder's license somewhere down the track, and at no point after you receive either of those qualifications do you have to do anything else to keep it, um, except for you know, not go bankrupt and things like that, not be a criminal. Um But for so many other professions, including architects, they all have to do continuing professional development. They have to keep up to date with Australian standards, with material changes, with coat changes. And um, you know, the build the builders uh and the trades are the ones putting these buildings together on site. And one of my biggest worries with the introduction of this vapor permeability issue um in the colder states with the membranes is that um somebody's gonna pick up the wrong membrane off the shelf because they don't understand the difference between a class one and a class four membrane. And they're gonna they're gonna whack the wrong membrane on a timber frame and the the the building could potentially go moldy within a few years, and they're gonna be held liable for something that they didn't even understand in the first place. Um I mean, the Master Builders Association, HAA, the ABCB, the Building Codes Board, they put out some information and they do hold, you know, they do hold sessions, but they're they're not super accessible. And your your average builder and tradesman or tradesperson is um not very likely to access that information. Firstly, because they're not technically minded, they are good with their Hands. They're not going to go and read the standards or the building codes because they're too busy on site. They're usually snowed under with work and they're too busy. And as you say, there's a fear of things that are too technical or a um, you know, it's uh not my problem, or uh it's it's too scary and I don't understand it. So I'm just gonna keep doing it the way I've always done it.

SPEAKER_02: 22:46

And on that, Jess, I think look as well, the the ones that do uh I guess get the confidence or whatever and do try and go to those events, the events aren't delivered in a way that resonates.

SPEAKER_01: 22:58

No.

SPEAKER_02: 22:59

So even though they they put in the time, and so nine times out of ten, someone that might not for years all of a sudden decides to go to one of those events and then they'll never go again because it was delivered in a really boring technical manner that didn't hit home.

SPEAKER_00: 23:12

I was talking to a Buddha this morning and he said, Oh, I went to one and I asked questions, and the person delivering it couldn't even answer my question. And I've heard that more than once. Um, and these are people who are supposed to know. So if you don't trust the people who are meant to be delivering this information to you, why would you spend your time and money doing it? This is why I do what I do and I started my podcast because I am I got these building code changes started to concern me because I knew the information wasn't getting out, and um, I just wanted to deliver information in a in a in a more accessible way.

SPEAKER_02: 23:47

I um, as you're aware, like you got Climate Shores sponsoring um Live Life Builds event in a couple of weeks' time down Adelaide to um basically discuss the entire cavity-drained batten system, and um I did a store a post on my socials yesterday to try and drum it up because we're shutting uh ticket sales this afternoon. And I I got hammered with messages last night, but I would have got over half a dozen messages saying, and I I have to hold back not to respond to them, like I try not to get sucked into the rubbish, but the amount of people that were saying, Oh, just another shit change, they're not gonna enforce it, I'm not interested. And like that's and that's just for me, that's just another driver to keep doing this podcast and get people on like yourself. I want to just keep talking about this stuff because I a big thing that I feel builders don't take seriously enough is you only have to get the wrong client. And if you might build a home, it might be sweet, all gets finished, and it possibly might not even be the client you've built for. So that client might sell their home in two years' time, and the purchase the person that purchases that home might notice a little bit of mould somewhere, or something might happen that leads to a insurance claim or something, they will come back and get you because as a builder, it's your responsibility to make sure that at whatever point in time you build something, it is built to the National Construction Code. And um I'm hearing a lot of um stories from insurance companies now that because obviously there's so many claims, like um there's been a lot of data put out only in the last sort of week or two about like I think it was in the$54 billion,$58 billion range of uh rectification work now that's getting done per year in Australia. Um, and so I'm hearing from a lot of insurance companies that if they send an assessor out to now, the first thing they do is assess whether it would have met code when the house was built.

SPEAKER_00: 25:54

Yeah, right.

SPEAKER_02: 25:55

And if it didn't, if it didn't, they just chase the builder.

unknown: 25:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 26:00

And the builder will have to fix that.

SPEAKER_00: 26:01

Yep. This is why I mentioned the issue about the wraps before, because there is no mold index in the building code around the condensation requirements. So you either have to put in the right repermeability of your wrap, or if you don't, you have to meet a mold index. Um and it's it like it's all still pretty vague, it's all pretty new, but at some point, like the conversation has started around mould and and um the the health of the buildings that we're all living and working in. And so if you build a house that goes mouldy, at some point someone is going to be held liable. And I know in the past 12 months, um, I have received two phone calls, one from a lawyer and one from a consulting engineer, I think, asking me for um expert witness advice for Woofie. Woofie is a hygrothermal assessment that gives you a mold index. And that is how the building code is assessing mold risk using this mold index simulation. And so if I'm getting phone calls, and I know that other people are getting phone calls about these cases, that tells me that the questions are being asked and the conversations are being had. And it it is, I believe, only a matter of time before somebody with the right motivation and the right B in their bonnet and the right bank balance to make a really big fuss about mould and um and then there's a precedent.

SPEAKER_02: 27:18

So um well, I don't um I don't know the full details, but I do I have heard whispers that there's um I don't know if it started or they're trying to get it started, a class action up here in um Southeast Queensland on a against a volume builder. Um I think it started with one home that was wasn't even 12 months old. I think they had a a leaking issue, and then when they come in and cut some plasterboard out, they found that inside the walls was completely full of mould. And then the more they investigated it turned out like basically 80% of this house inside inside the external walls uh was mouldy, and uh it actually got to a point where they've condemned the house and they're saying that it should be demolished. And like this is a this is a home that the people have spent one plus million dollars building that isn't even 12 months old, and that's led on to now other people that have built with that same builder coming out, and um, yeah, the last I heard they were all trying to do a class action because the builder's trying to wipe his hands off it.

SPEAKER_00: 28:19

Yeah, see that's scary. That's scary, and that sounds to me like that wasn't a water leak issue. That sounds to me like it that could have been a vapor issue, not understanding.

SPEAKER_02: 28:29

Yeah, that's only been discovered because of another issue. Yeah. Um similar thing happened recently.

SPEAKER_00: 28:36

I saw a post where this family pulled up a floorboard because they had a gap in their floorboards, and they pulled up the floorboard to try and fix this one floorboard, and underneath the flooring, the entire place was covered in black mould. Like they had ply under their flooring, and the whole floor had to be ripped up, all of the carpets, all of the timber floorboards. And I think that might have been I'm taking an educated guess, and I think that might have been because the concrete slab hadn't cured properly and the ply just got saturated and just went mouldy over a period of time. Um but this house was three years old and it was immaculate on the surface.

SPEAKER_02: 29:12

Yeah. And look, I'll again I'll take ownership of that. Um we like we've always sort of taken um I guess water and how our jobs get managed during construction seriously, like covering materials up and trying to keep things dry and those sorts of things. But it's honestly, it's only been probably the last four to five years that we uh we first started taking more notice of our slabs, and then in the last three years, uh moisture testing uh and like our standard in our building business now is that um slabs don't get covered up unless they've got a lower than I think 16% moisture in them, and wall all the wall framing and everything. So uh leading up to plastering, um, like we might do 60 to 80 checks around the building, check the wall framing, check the roof trusses, check the floor system, and yeah, we we will delay our plaster if the the moisture readings in our timber is higher than what the Australian standard says. And the reason I'm bringing this up is I was never taught that. I wasn't I was never aware of that. Nobody ever told me that. I just started hearing bits and pieces about it here, there and everywhere. The person that actually pointed it out to me the most was was our timber flooring company.

SPEAKER_01: 30:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 30:29

Um because they used to push back all the time, like they would come to our sites and they wouldn't lay our flooring. And I think this also comes back to why builders need to push back on their or pay money to use good quality subcontractors. Um, because our flooring guys for the last 15 years will not lay flooring if the moisture content is over 16.

SPEAKER_01: 30:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 30:52

And through me just asking more and more questions and learning, that led on to looking at the building code and learning more, and then yeah, like I said, to a point where now we moisture check everything before the next layer goes on.

SPEAKER_01: 31:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 31:04

And I think like you I'm not sure about Adelaide, but like here in Southeast Queensland, like, and we've started getting some early rain now, and it's only um late October, we're we're in for another wet season. But like during the wet season, our frames can sit in out in the open and get absolutely saturated for two or three months, especially when you're doing a large home, before you start to wrap it up. And um look, that's all good and well if it gets time to dry. Um but so many people are just slapping them up, the roof goes on, the windows go in, it's it's all wrapped up, plaster boards in, see you later, and no one knows any better.

SPEAKER_00: 31:44

Yeah, well, that could have been the issue with this house that you're talking about as well, the volume builder. It could have been wet wet timber frames that were insulated and plaster boarded over before they were dry. So um the timber framing code says that timber moisture content should be below 14%. Um so you can get I it's I reckon one of the, you know, one of the best insurance policies you can have is just getting a cheap pin moisture meter from Bunnings and test your frames before you insulate and clad and just make sure they're under, you know, 14-15% moisture content. Um if your timber frame is dry. I mean, it might it must be tricky up in Queensland because not only do you have that rain, you've got that heavy humidity in the air, which which really slows down drying.

SPEAKER_02: 32:24

Um but and it can it changes so quickly. We can moisture test one day and it's 22, and like by the next afternoon it's down to 12. Yeah. But look, it it does make me a little bit nervous. Like I know there is some projects that I've built over the last 15 to 18 years where they got really wet and we weren't aware of all this stuff, and we probably sheeted them too early. Uh touch wood, I've never had anything been pointed out to me, but um again, I think as a builder, one of the things we we touched on it the other day when we were talking, you don't know what you don't know. So, like I just go through my career now, like not doing anything the way that I was taught. Like there's always whether I know it or someone in my team know it knows it, or I reach out to someone like yourself to get information, there's always a better way to and to keep improving what we do.

SPEAKER_00: 33:17

And it's just a matter of knowing who to ask and what questions to ask. And I I had a message from somebody recently, and she's like, I don't even know where to start. But I if I don't start asking the question, I'll never ask it. And she just had like verbal diarrhea with all of the things that she was worried about. And I was like, There's no problem. No, none of us care about hearing these long-winded, confused ramblings because that means you've started asking the questions. And you know, it can start like that, or it can start with please help me. And um, and and someone like me um can can just start guiding you. So it's just a matter of knowing who to ask.

SPEAKER_02: 33:55

Yeah, so um you touched on it just before, uh Wolfie report.

SPEAKER_00: 33:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 34:00

Um you've done a few, a couple for us now. What um explain there more for people that don't know what a WOFI is.

SPEAKER_00: 34:07

Yeah. So WOFI is a German program, and I'm not going to try and pronounce the German name. It's Wolfie is a short, shortened version of the full long name. Uh, but it is a computer simulation program, and it's how we determine a mold risk. It just so Woofie is a hygrothermal simulation. So it's about heat and moisture transiency. So those two things, heat and moisture, will uh create mold in the right or wrong conditions. So we build up a wall or a floor or a roof in in this computer program. Uh it is not a whole building simulation. So some people think that if they get a woofy simulation, they're gonna be told, yes, your building won't will go moldy, or no, your building won't go mouldy. It's it's a detail-by-detail simulation. So if you've got three different wall types in your build in your in your um project and you want to make sure that none of them are going to go mouldy, you'll need three different simulations. And within those three different simulations, you're gonna need a number of different iterations to make sure that your risk is as low as possible. So it's not a slow process, it's quite an involved assessment process. But we build up the wall and the software, so it can be brick veneer wall, for example, is brick, air cavity, timber and insulation, plaster board, standard brick veneer wall, um, and then a membrane if you're using a membrane. And we'll simulate that and um we take a mold index at the critical point, which is always the layer inside the water barrier. And uh, if that is above three, then by the building code, we are required to the the the assembly is required to be um amended in order to bring that mold index below three. Um so it's it's a really it's a risk assessment tool. I wouldn't say it's the golden ticket because there are there are lots of variables that are outside of the control of any person doing a computer simulation. Um Cameron Monroe, uh he's a very smart uh passive pass consultant in Melbourne. He says, I heard him say once, um, all models are wrong and some are useful. And the the aim of this particular computer simulation or this computer model is to be useful. So uh it is it is, as far as I'm concerned, a risk assessment tool, and you can mitigate your risk quite well by understanding the behaviour of heat and moisture throughout your assembly. So it gives you a graph and it shows you where the relative humidity and the moisture content are inside your wall over a period of um, I think the minimum for the building code is 10 years. Um we we model using a standard called ARA DA07 uh and that has it sets out all of the requirements for how you are to simulate this wall. So it sounds really technical. Um it's it's it's a it's a risk assessment tool and it has been incorporated into the building code as a performance solution to condensation management inside walls.

SPEAKER_02: 37:10

Yeah, I think it's really uh it's really valuable information. Um my supervisor has been asking to read through some of the uh wolfies that you've done for us, and it's it's highlighted to them if that we don't know what we don't know. So um if you if we continue to do this, like I I feel we're pushing for it, we're not quite there yet. Like I'd ideally in a perfect world, I'd like to see every single project we build get a wolfie report done. Um I think the more reports we see done on different wall makeups, roof makeups, floor makeups, it's only going to build our knowledge. Um and for the cost of a wolfie report, like seriously compared to what the outcome could possibly be if things were to go wrong, um, yeah, it's just it's a no-brainer to me. Moving on, can you fill us in a little bit about ClimAshore and what ClimAShore offers for um the clients that you work for?

SPEAKER_00: 38:04

Yeah, so Climashore is a building envelope consultancy uh in Adelaide, South Australia. Uh we provide passive house consulting, as I said, wolfie consulting, blower door testing, thermal bridge simulations, and anything to do with uh building detailing around moisture management. Um so we sell the ProClimber membranes, we distribute them here in South Australia as well. So um it's owned by Jackson Digney, who you've recently had on the podcast, who also owns Enduro Builders, and he started Climber Shore in order to help other builders do what he does in his building company. So uh yeah, we help builders and architects all over South Australia and all over the country, actually. Um I have quite a number of inquiries from around your area, um, Brisbane, southern, southern Queensland and northern New South Wales, where there's a lot of humidity issues and a lot of mould issues up there. I get a lot of woofing inquiries and and um mould inquiries from around that space. Uh, I get uh people who are building homes come to me for uh like a new home consultancy where we'll go, I'll do a plan review and um point out some things that they might not have thought of. And I do a lot of guidance of builders. Um, and that could be either coming at me from the perspective of the owner who says, I've got this builder, but I don't think that they're quite ready and they're not quite, they haven't used these ProClimate products before, and they're not quite across all of these things. Could you please help me? Uh, and uh, you know, that's great fun for me. So I go and do that. Um, sometimes it's the actual builders themselves who are looking to just just create a new a new standard in their building business. And um, we go in and we blow a door test and we'll benchmark an existing home of theirs, and from there it just sort of is the upward trajectory of learning about airtightness and moisture management and then we're bridging and and all those sorts of things up to certified passive house, so uh and and beyond. So um yeah, it's um it's uh quite the joy for me to help people who are curious. They come to me with a little bit of a spark in their eye, and they just they know that there's something better out there, but they're not quite sure what it is and how to get it. And um we lead them through that process.

SPEAKER_02: 40:13

Yeah, I um doing my podcast, doing the podcast with Jackson um a few couple of weeks ago and learning more about his background and his passion, where he comes from. I was like, man, you are super humble. Like you need to put more out on your on your social media, like people need to know this stuff.

SPEAKER_00: 40:31

Actually, I learned a few things about him myself when I listened to that episode about his his his history. And I think the biggest difference between um Jackson and a lot of other builders is that he he's got a lot of business now. So um he he is he's very good at running a tight ship.

SPEAKER_02: 40:52

Yeah, yeah. But his knowledge, like I I was blown away by his knowledge, and yeah, uh more like we didn't get through half the questions I had for him, but um after that we were finished recording the conversation that we had, it just like it was like, man, I want to jump on a plane and just come down and spend a few days with you. Like his knowledge around building higher performing, healthier homes uh was incredible. And I yeah, like it I know it's like the same as Paula and and and yourself. Like people that tend to be very good and knowledgeable aren't always the ones that are sprooking it and putting it out there.

SPEAKER_00: 41:30

Well, I try to put my own knowledge out there as much as I can, actually. I want everyone to know about it. I want I want everyone to start asking questions and their ears to prick up.

SPEAKER_02: 41:39

Yeah. So for you, Jess, what's like where do you want to go with this? Like what's your dream for the industry with the with what you're doing in it?

SPEAKER_00: 41:49

I would I would love to see continuing professional development implemented for builders. Um I would love to see um I would love to see these sorts of I mean, I I think I learned more in my diploma at TAFE about energy efficiency and sustainability than architects and builders do in their qualifications. And I think that that that knowledge needs to be integrated so much earlier on for all of the all of the students of of this industry. I have been invited to TAFE to do a few sessions. Some of the students, some of the carpentry students, and um how to do some installation for the lecturers as well. So um that's very encouraging. I've been invited to a couple of universities to do some presentations, um, but it's very ad hoc, it's not part of their curriculum. Um, and I uh as a as a general thing, uh there's a university in Washington, the University of Washington has just introduced a subject um in their medical degree about mould. So um these sorts of um building health uh issues are slowly being integrated into tertiary, uh tertiary qualifications, uh and I'd like to see a lot more of that happening so that I don't have to do the rework after everyone's already been trained. I you know, in 10, 20 years, I hope to be out of a job. I hope that I don't have to do this. I don't hope that I'm not the teacher. I hope that this is taught as um a core and I can I can use my skills somewhere else. Um I would love to see I would love to see these sorts of things implemented much, much earlier um into the learning process. Uh and so that the quality of housing, I think the the connection between the building industry and the health industry is not close enough. Um the the the role of builders and designers and architects uh the in in the health of their clients and the health of the um the any any person who's going to occupy the buildings that they build is so much closer than we uh we understand when we start putting pen to paper. And um that's a conversation that really needs to be expanded on.

SPEAKER_02: 43:58

Well, the whole mould thing is really ramping up. I was just reaching over to um I don't have a copy of the book here, but um, and I can't remember his name. But the the co-author of Paula Baker Laporte's book, um Prescriptions for a Healthy Home. Um I can't remember his name, it's uh it might come to me, but he's spent 30, 40 years uh in the healthy home space and better building and all this type of stuff, building earth ships. And he has not I'm not sure if it's out yet. Um Paula sent me a transcript of it to have a look over when she was over here. Um that he's just about to or has released a book that is completely about the effects that electromagnetic waves have on mold. And I'm not sure you'll what you're hearing in this space, but over like there's a lot of things science now that is putting two and two together. And if basically, and I might get this wrong, but um I'm definitely no expert, but if you are building homes in a way where contents like moisture is in there, and then you've also got electromagnetic waves around, the electromagnetic waves are uh increasing the mole growth quite dramatically. So there's there's so many things coming out now that um that we just can't ignore. Yeah. And we have we need to be taken more seriously. So I'm the like the worst thing for me is I'm not a reader. So unless it's on audible, I really struggle to um to get through it. So but yeah, I think they're conversations that need to be had, and um I think like it took me a long time as a builder to get over, like I've put my hand up today a couple of times. Like I know I've done things in the past on in the last 15, 18, 20 years building homes that I could have done better, but I didn't have the knowledge. I didn't know what I didn't know. But as you said before, like you can't undo it. Like once you start on this journey with this stuff, you can't go back to the way you used to build. And I think that's what has now become like our standards in my building business just keep growing and growing and growing because there's no way in the world I'm gonna build a house now for a client that doesn't want a cavity batten system or doesn't want to use ProClimber or doesn't want vented eave sheets or like all those types of things. And um I think as builders and tradies, we definitely need to take more responsibility around what we deliver our clients.

SPEAKER_00: 46:23

So um Yeah, I think um I think when it comes to learning, I think there's the growth mindset and there's a fixed mindset. And I think that people with a fixed mindset are fearful, there's potentially a bit of fear around learning something new because it means that what you were doing before was wrong, and people don't like to think or feel or admit that they might have been wrong. Um so they're much more they're much more likely to say, nope, I'm gonna keep doing it the way I've done it, there's nothing wrong with it. Um and then you've got people with a growth mindset who know that there's always gonna be more things to learn and that they can continually improve and just want to just that trajectory upwards just just needs to keep going for them. Um you sound like one of those people. I'm one of those people.

SPEAKER_02: 47:01

Um wasn't always patent? Definitely wasn't always one of those people.

SPEAKER_00: 47:06

Like maybe that just takes time and maturity and experience to get there. Um and a few a few mistakes, or you know. Um but uh as you said, you don't know what you don't know. And uh, you know, when you know better, you can do better. And that is as a professional, I think that that um you know there's always something more to know.

SPEAKER_02: 47:29

Yeah. How do you we'll um wrap it up in a minute, just quickly, um, like building science because building science and building biology are very different, aren't they?

SPEAKER_00: 47:38

And well, biology is science, and I keep being told that when I tell people that the name of my podcast is Building Soology, they're like my my 18-year-old daughter pointed it out to me, and I was like, Thank you, dear. Um but but building science is more around uh like that uh thermodynamics, I guess, heat, air, moisture, uh, thermal bridging, airtightness, all the passive house stuff that we talk about. Building uh thermal bridges, air tightness, um, window performance, insulation, and um what's the fifth one? Uh uh uh well ventilation. So that's more about air and um air quality. Whereas building biology is more about um, you know, like the mould, the EMFs that you spoke about earlier, um, which uh is definitely a topic that needs we I think we need to stay curious about. I'm not sure how I feel about EMFs, but we definitely need to stay open-minded about that, about that topic. Um, it's about even um, you know, water quality, uh filtration of water. It's about the the toxic chemicals that could be in our materials that we are breathing in that are off-gassing VOCs that we get into our bodies and affect our health. Uh, it's it's even there's even a subject in my advanced diploma of breeding biology around feng shui. Because clutter, uh placement of, you know, furniture and and clutter is a major contributor or it's an indicator that there could be a more of a mould problem because people who are cluttered tend not to clean dust, they tend not to clean their gutters, you know, all these sorts of things that indicate that there could be a a mould issue inside someone's home or a or an indoor air quality issue. And all of these things, the VOCs, carbon dioxide, air tightness, humidity, um, particular matter, EMFs, all of these things are invisible. And it's very easy to poo-poo them and go, oh no, that doesn't matter. I never thought about it before, not an issue. Uh, but once you start measuring them, once you start measuring air tightness with the blower door test, once you start measuring carbon dioxide um with a with a, you know, you get a little um indoor air quality monitor, once you start measuring humidity and you start getting these things into your psyche, once you start, you get out, you know, um uh one of those things, radio frequency things, and you start measuring the electromagnetic waves coming off of our appliances, you realise that these things, just because they're invisible, doesn't mean they don't matter. And um it even, you know, insulation behind plaster board, often we'll find that there's insulation bats missing from a roof cavity that you can't see because you can't see through plaster board. But as soon as you put a thermal camera on it, you can see a giant hole in the insulation. So all of these things, just because you can't see them, doesn't mean that they don't matter. And uh building biology is is essentially a lot of thinking about those sorts of things.

SPEAKER_02: 50:40

You're 100% on the money with that. And we it's probably over 12 months ago now. We had um Jane, the Feng Shu lady, come up from um Feng Shui lady come up from Sydney, come on the podcast. I met her, I was speaking at a Master Builders gig down in Sydney, and turns out she's a massive fan of the podcast, and come up and um so we got her on the podcast. She came up here, and before the podcast, she gave my wife and I a um a personal session, and before she came up, she asked for like she wanted plans of our house, she wanted furniture layout, she wanted to know more about us. Um, so that was another part of the story. But she had a monitor to mana uh monitor the um EMFs. And look, I've been aware of it, and um Amelia and I have done well not quite recently done some projects together and and we talked about that. We actually did a um project for a client probably two years ago now that was really focused on EMF, so we had to change a lot of the way we normally do electrical. But I'd never seen it. And so walking around our home and our bedrooms with this monitor and seeing how much it varied has definitely increased how I educate our clients now when we're doing an electrical walkthrough on where they put things and um with everything powerpoints, light switches, um, and even how we run our wiring, like a lot of our wiring now, uh instead of running wherever we can, instead of running through the ceiling and down, runs through the floors and up because it's keeping everything down lower. But that's a whole other podcast. But yeah, yeah. Um look, Jess, I genuinely appreciate your time today for jumping on. Um I really encourage all my listeners to uh reach out and uh watch your podcasts, um, reach out to Climate Shaw if they want any sort of consulting. Um, but the last thing before we jump out of here, what does level up mean to you?

SPEAKER_00: 52:32

Level up, uh I came across level up about three years ago, and I was um extremely encouraged and impressed because as I have said in this podcast, there's no CPD for builders, and level up is is a source of information. Um, and it's it's you know, your your heart is very solidly in the right place, Dwayne, and you've come from a place of experience, and um you you genuinely want to help, and I admire that. So um, you know, I I I appreciate the position that level up holds in the industry, and um, yeah, I just want to keep keep keep keep going, keep keep it up, um, keep spreading that information and keep educating your followers.

SPEAKER_02: 53:15

Awesome. Thanks, Jess. Anything else before we jump out that you'd like to, or I guess where can people find you?

SPEAKER_00: 53:21

Uh okay. Um, yeah, so uh the the Clamashore website, Clamashore.com.au. Um it's probably the best place to find us. Uh the Instagram, Climbershaw SA. Um, you can Google Building Soology for um for the podcast, uh S-C-I-O-L-O-G-Y. And um, yeah, don't be afraid to reach out and say hi.

SPEAKER_02: 53:43

Awesome. Thanks, Jess. Look, as always, guys, uh, make sure you go to the DuanePearce.com website. Um, I talk about it all the time, but make sure you grab your level up merch so we can continue to grow the level up movement and create a new building industry. Um, keep an eye on Jess's socials and climate shore because they may have something coming up next year that you might be very interested in. So uh hopefully that uh pulls off, Jess, and we'll see you there. Appreciate your time. All right, guys, I want to introduce you to a really exciting new product that I believe is going to play a massive role in Australia building healthier homes. As you all know, I am extremely passionate about healthy homes and I'm doing a lot of research and putting a lot of time and effort into making sure my construction business is leading the way when it comes to building healthy homes here in Australia. We've teamed up with the guys from Highwood Timber. Highwood Timber are pioneering condensation management with their high flow ventilated LVL baton system. High flow battons give builders a stronger, straighter, and smarter way to create a ventilated cavity behind cladding and underneath roofs without compromising on structural performance. While tackling condensation to improve building health and ease of insulation, highwood battons are built to perform. When it comes to dealing with condensation and ventilation, high flow battons will help you create continuous ventilated cavities behind all your cladding and underneath your roof sheeting. They reduce condensation risk and support healthier, longer lasting buildings. Highwood timber battons are also in alignment with the proposed NCC condensation management requirements as well as passive house ventilation requirements. Being an engineered LVL product, they are stronger, straighter, and more dimensionally stable than a solid material such as pine. This helps resist warping, twisting, and shrinkage, ensuring more consistent installs less prone to splitting than solid timber. Howwood timber battens are precisely manufactured, meaning that your installation will be faster and easier than other products on the market. The part that I like the most about these battons are they are H3 treated for long-term protection against decay and turmoiles. They use a waterborne H3 treatment which reduces reactivity with membranes and adhesives when compared to LOSP. These are the exact battens that you want to be using on your homes and your builds if you are considering building healthier homes or passive homes. Check them out Highwood Timber Products.