The Estimating Mistake Costing Australian Builders Millions Every Year | Level Up Podcast

Check out Steve and his work:
🔹Price a Plan - https://www.priceaplan.com.au/
🔹Social Media — https://www.instagram.com/haydnisnow
🔹Social Media — https://www.instagram.com/priceaplan/

Australian builders are wasting BILLIONS on quotes that go nowhere. In this episode, I sit down with Hayden Simmons from Price of Plan to expose the shocking truth about estimating in the construction industry.

🔨 THE REALITY:
• 82% of drawings never get built
• Builders quote 80+ jobs to win just 14
• One supplier quotes $1 BILLION to turn over $120M (18% success rate)
• Over 3,200 building businesses went insolvent last year

💡 THE SOLUTION:
Hayden reveals the game-changing approach that's helped builders achieve 70%+ win rates (some close to 100%). Learn how to:
✅ Quote LESS and win MORE
✅ Implement a pre-construction process that qualifies clients
✅ Save 40-80 hours per $1M project
✅ Get paid for your estimating work
✅ Build a sustainable, profitable business

Transcript

Setting The Stage: Why Estimating Matters

SPEAKER_00 1:27

G'day goodballers. Welcome back to another episode of Level Up. We are back in Hotshed this afternoon for a cracking episode. It's been a great morning this morning. I've been in on my sites, been uh checking in on my team. We have got some incredible things coming up uh that we've been working with a few of our suppliers to develop to make our uh life on site a lot easier, but also make our jobs a lot better. But um that's a story for another day because today, on today's podcast, we're going to talk about one of the things that I believe is probably one of the biggest misunderstood parts of the construction industry, and that is quoting and estimating. And to dive into this deeper, we've got one of the best experts in the industry uh here with us today. So um big warm welcome to Hayden from Price of Plan. How are you, mate?

SPEAKER_05 2:15

Thanks, Dwayne. Cheers, mate. Thanks for having me along.

Hayden’s Unusual Path To Building

SPEAKER_00 2:17

No, I'm I'm really looking forward to the chat today because um long time listeners will know that um outsourcing estimating is something that I've really struggled with, and and probably if been a little bit against so they're probably thinking, What's his change's tune? But um, you and I have had a lot of conversations over the past few months. You you've actually now um started doing some pricing on some of our jobs. Um so yeah, I'm I'm keen to really dive in today and I guess get some of your background, but also learn a lot more about what you do, how you do it, and how you can help tradies and builders uh run a more professional business.

SPEAKER_05 2:58

Yeah, no worries. Thanks for having me along. It's my passion, it's uh developed into a passion as well, providing support around this particular aspect of the business, which as I've learned, very, very few people really enjoy doing. Never had the aptitude for it. And then um when they became a tradeie, um, the last skill they probably focused on was quoting, if if at all.

SPEAKER_00 3:24

So well mate, that's what I sort of just said then. I I personally think that quoting is one of the it is one of the biggest, like clients don't understand how much time's involved. A lot of designers and architects have no idea of how much time goes into doing it properly. And as you just pointed out, like so many people that actually work in the industry, like it's like it's not really something you get taught. Like, no, um, but it is one of the most important parts of being able to run a successful business.

SPEAKER_05 3:53

Yeah, it's absolutely critical. And the way people are taught, if they are, it's probably from their boss who's learnt longhand uh scale rulers, you know. So they've coming in and now that that generation that was taught that way are now starting to adopt systems, uh softwares that do make it easier. Um, but it's a really common story that people are still sort of fudging, fudging their way through it, even if they are using a software. So yeah.

SPEAKER_00 4:21

Well, mate, before we get into it too deep, give us a little bit of your background. Because you are you are like I think that's probably part of what won me over in, I guess, trusting you to do some estimating on our work. Like you you are very passionate about what you do.

SPEAKER_05 4:36

Yeah, cheers. Well, it's it's been a long and windy journey to be where I am. Um I I was thinking about this the other day. Like at school, I was shit at school, as most tradies people ended up in the industry are. Terrible, couldn't sit still, couldn't focus, you know. But there were two subjects that I got um A's in, and one was woodwork, and the other one was geometry in maths. Like we did a semester of geometry, and I got the only exam I ever got 100% on was geometry. Um so you would think that the natural progression for me from school would be to go into a trade, right? Yeah, I did nursing.

unknown 5:19

Right.

SPEAKER_05 5:20

Go figure.

SPEAKER_00 5:21

Um but what what where did that like what drove that?

SPEAKER_05 5:25

What well it was a period, it was a period of time in Australia where they were the Hawke Labour government were introducing hex debt. And so they did this massive push that everybody, the the educated country, everybody's got to go to university. So they did this massive university push and just encouraged everyone to do that. And then it created, you know, subsequent years later, it created a massive trade shortage, which we're still seeing, I think, from that. So this is we're talking back in the late 80s, early 90s was when that was that transition was happening. So I was just sort of swept along by no, you've got to go to uni. What are you gonna do? And I didn't even get into nursing um because my grades were so bad. Um, but I got a late call up, literally like the week before uni was about to start, where they needed more male intakes. So I got a call and I got into nursing. And by the way, I didn't fact didn't graduate. I did three and a half years of the four-year degree and then dropped out or blew out because I was just having a good time. But you know, everything takes you somewhere. Then I travelled, and nursing was great when I was traveled because I could get a job in a in a hospital doing various tasks. So it was good for that. Lived in England for a while and then worked in bars and traveled, travelled for about seven years. I was overseas, did all sorts of stuff, um, sailed boats in the Greek Islands and um taught at kids' camps in Canada, taught water skiing, outdoor education stuff. Um, ended up getting a job for um Diana Ross as a nanny. Worked for her for a while, lived in New York. Yeah, so it was a very long and windy journey. But whenever I would have a gap or I'd meet people or anywhere, they'd go, oh, the the door's not working, or you know, I was thinking about putting a small deck out here, I'd go, yeah, I'll do that. So I would just jump back into it. It came very naturally to me.

SPEAKER_03 7:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 7:25

Um, and then in Canada, I ended up working in the film industry building props and sets. Um, so that was fun. That was when I was really started to get my hands dirty, so to speak, back on the tools. Um, and then I we moved back to Australia and had a crack at working in the film industry in Australia for a bit. But um, and again, every time there was a gap or a slowdown in that particular pathway, I'd be back on the tools building something for somebody. And then, yeah, then just decided we had children, didn't want to work in the film industry anymore. It's a horrible industry, really. Um, very shallow and and very inconsistent. So just got my carpenter's license. Then did that for a bunch of years, and then built that up, and then got my builder's license, um, and then did my business management and finance and contract stuff all through Master Builders, built that up, and then ran my building business up at where I live at Tambarine Mountain for a whole bunch of years up there.

SPEAKER_00 8:26

Yeah. Jeez, mate, that's um that's a journey. It's a windy path. It's all I think it's really good to let people know where people have come from because um especially like young people, especially these days, like they're like we've seen it just recently with our 15 or 14-year-old daughter. There's so much pressure on them to know what they want to do.

SPEAKER_03 8:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 8:45

And I keep telling her, like, I don't care. Like, you don't need to know what you want to do now. Like, and you can go on a journey just like you've explained to us now. Like, um, and you never know where that journey's gonna take you, and and who knows what you might end up doing.

SPEAKER_05 8:57

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Yeah, I'm the same. I've got three daughters, and they've my youngest one's just had a grade 12 formal just this week. Um, but they're they're all you know, they're just still finding their way, and no pressure from us. Just find your way. Be a good person, be honest, be maintain your integrity and keep striving. Yeah, you'll you'll end up somewhere, right?

SPEAKER_00 9:19

So you've definitely like you've got history in the industry, like running a building business. So you you know firsthand how important quoting and estimating is.

From Builder To Estimator: The Pivot

SPEAKER_05 9:27

Yeah, totally. And and um, full disclosure, when I was running my building business, I was shit at estimating then. It was all long hand on a piece of fool's cap, or you know, not really, not really following good process at all in many aspects of the business. So, you know, we got by and you know, at that phase. I really didn't know what I what I do know now. Uh but to the transition to estimating happened um a little bit forced. I had an injury. I've got hearing issues, and I had to have some surgery on on one of my ears, and the surgery was gonna be um it was gonna be a six-week recovery, but it turned into nine months and couldn't get any sandalink and couldn't get any insurance. So I was sort of like you know, a couple of young kids at home. And so um it was actually um, you might some people in the industry may remember his name. His name was John Duncalf. He was the the manager of the Gold Coast Master Builder's Office, and he was an absolute legend, like a really great ally for me, right through my carpentry licensing and building license. And I went down to him and I was like, Oh god, you know, I'm a bit of a spot. And and he just said, Oh, why don't you just do a bit of estimating, you know, for some people while you while you're while you're down. And that suggestion just made me literally a light bulb as people describe it. And from that light bulb I went, well, I could do that, but fuck who wouldn't want that support, right? So I did some research. Really, this is going back 18 years ago, there was almost nobody. I found one company in Melbourne that was providing something, yeah, um, and just started exploring as an idea to fill a gap, but it just took over. And I recovered, went back on the tools, ran my building business as well as starting up the um price to plan estimating service and ran them simultaneously for a few years.

SPEAKER_00 11:23

So have you always been price to plan?

SPEAKER_05 11:25

Yep. Yep, from the get-go, that was the name that my wife and I came up with. And um, yeah, so now we've yeah, we've really, really grown, learned, learned an awful lot in that time.

SPEAKER_00 11:37

That's an incredible story. Like to, I guess, put perspective on that. So in 18 years, you've gone from well, there was no people out there doing estimating and quoting to now having a business. What do you quote?$600 million worth of work a year or something now. Yeah, yep. Like it's um that's a massive achievement.

SPEAKER_05 11:55

Yeah, thanks. Yeah. Yeah, I'm I'm really quite proud of it. What I've what I learned as I sort of started to grow into that pathway was um how much I I love business and learning about business. And the and for me, business is is incredibly creative. So I really do the thing I loved about carpentry was the creative aspect of it. I love doing projects when there were no plans. And you walk into someone's home and they've sort of got a vision, you go, oh yeah, we could do that. And I just that type of creative carpentry is what I still get a buzz out of. So I found that similar sort of creative um fulfillment in business. Um it might sound funny, but I I really do.

SPEAKER_00 12:37

And as the business- I wouldn't recommend building anything without plans.

SPEAKER_05 12:40

That's well, this was this was back when I was doing smaller non um, you know, non stuff that didn't require council approval or anything like that, you know.

SPEAKER_00 12:50

Um yeah, yeah, I I I just think that's an incredible story, mate. And it definitely um says a lot about who you are. And but one thing that I really like about it is I've I've got a lot of time and energy for people that understand the industry. I feel there's so many people that work in our industry and they well, sorry, there's a lot of people that don't work in our industry that just really have no clue of what's involved. But there is also a lot of people that work in the industry that might be very good at their part of it, but have no understanding of it. Um, so the fact that you've been a builder, you've you've run a building business and you've been able to transition into quoting and estimating four other builders, yeah, like that to me just says a lot. And that's probably, like I said, that's um that's got part of the re like that's part of the reason why I um have teamed up to work with you as well, because I didn't want to get someone to estimate my jobs that are never had a nail bag on and and didn't understand how the building went together and just all the little bits and pieces that come up that you that you can't pick from a from a flat piece of paper. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 14:02

Yeah, that's so true. Yeah, well, I appreciate that. Um I do I do feel I I hear frequently from people that have been burnt by, you know, their their dabble into using an outsource estimator. Um and you know, we've I've I've just structured everything that we do, the way we structure it is I'm I'm thankful because it's been from the literally thousands of conversations I've had from uh builders. Um so it's not just my experience building running a job site that is valuable, but more valuable are all the conversations that I've been able to have with people learning about um you know cavity batterons and describe then then describing to me how they're gonna do it and then getting that comprehension. That's really my knowledge by being a provider that in the space that I am where I've really grown my my um not trying to say my knowledge, I guess.

The Hidden Time Cost Of Quotes

SPEAKER_00 15:00

Yeah. The um like how do you I guess to go back to people that um don't understand don't know a lot about estimating, like what are what are you hearing from the industry? Like I I know myself, like doing custom homes, um like it was part of the reason my wife and I built our quote e software, like um wasn't just to help us do the quotes more efficiently, like a big driver for our software is about the presentation and how it presents to the client. Yep. But quoting is such a time consuming monster. Like if you don't have if you don't have a software or a process or something to help you, it takes hours. Like a like a million dollar job to do properly can easily chew up 40 to 80 hours.

SPEAKER_05 16:47

Yeah, that's right.

SPEAKER_00 16:48

Um, and I think when you like I know in the old days when I used to try and explain this to people, like it just you just saw it going over their head. Like they're like, but what are you talking about? How can you spend that long like doing like what do you do? What do you do in that time? Like um, but there's to do it well, there's a lot that goes into it. Obviously, you refine it, you've got a big team behind you, and you you obviously have a lot of systems and processes around how you do it. Yeah, um and I know just on one of the jobs that you've um recently provided some pricing for us, like you're you're obviously very good with your data because it was very easy to see how you got to the end figure. Right. Um, so yeah, I'm I'm curious to know what you're hearing from the industry about how much time goes into quoting.

SPEAKER_05 17:35

Uh yeah, you've you've nailed it 40 to 80 hours per million dollars.

SPEAKER_00 17:40

Oh, yeah, right.

SPEAKER_05 17:41

That's about the per million dollars, it's about between 40 to 80 hours. And that's that's the in-house builder's time. Not to mention all the subcontractors that are involved and suppliers that are involved as well to try and feed that particular project and to support that builder. It's it's astronomical.

SPEAKER_00 17:58

And and it's for a lot of businesses, that's unpaid time. But if they haven't got a process that they're getting paid for their preliminary service, that's all unpaid.

SPEAKER_05 18:06

That's right. Yeah. So look, I I met with a a potential new client this week, and I was just asking about what their their pre-construction process was, what are they, what are their goals with quoting, and what do they do. And they the numbers they gave me were they they do about they want to do about$40 million worth of projects a year. So every quarter um they have to win um$10 million worth of work. And he he so they quote they they have to quote in order their because of their success rate, they have to quote about$80 million worth of work per quarter in order to meet their target for that uh that turnover. That means that their quoting success rate is like 20 to 25 percent. It's just like deflating, yeah. I feel different feel for the guy. And he was like, Well, that's just what we have to do, and and he doesn't charge for quotes. And so give me his number, mate.

SPEAKER_00 19:05

I'll give him a call. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 19:07

But uh that um that though that sort of stuff that so what I hear about estimating in the industry is that like it's just exhausting, uh, it overwhelms people, they're rushing it, it's chewing into family time, um, and it's just a burden that that people and and and then it translates into the job. Yeah, you know, you win the job, and then it's like oh fuck, yeah, see how we go.

SPEAKER_00 19:30

There is so many parts to it, and like I said, that's why I think it's very misunderstood. The um and like I I haven't seen them, I don't even know if they've been updated for a while, but I know um there was a study done four or five years ago where um 80, I think it was 82 or 83 percent of drawings never get built. Yep, that's right. And so that is an enormous amount of effort. Well, number one, it's an enormous amount of money that gets spent by clients to end up with a job that never even turns ground. Yep. But behind that, like the yeah, like you said, like the amount of builders, trades, contractors, suppliers. Um I know firsthand from some really good mates that have quite large businesses in the industry, like supplying materials. And like when you hear how much um they invest in estimating and what their rates are, like one of them's one of them's got a business that turns over about 120 million dollars a year, and their um success rate on the jobs they quote is only about 18%. So they're the same, like for them to turn over that$120 million a year, like if their success rate's only 18%, like they're they're basically having to quote a billion dollars worth of work.

SPEAKER_03 20:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 20:49

Um, which the time and waste in that is insane. Like, I'm not sure, in your opinion, on we're yeah, we're definitely gonna come back to talking about estimating how it's done and stuff. But I firmly believe that if more builders and trades and architects and like everybody in the industry understood their numbers and their overheads and they charged correctly to run a sustainable, profitable building business, yeah, that the overall cost of building would reduce.

Conversion Rates And Industry Waste

SPEAKER_05 21:22

Absolutely. I agree 100%. Because that one example you gave of your that one supplier, the amount of wasted money, like I I did some fun calculations one day on our client base. And if they can improve their conversion rate, so don't quote as many projects, quote fewer projects, it equates just within our client base. It was like three billion dollars on some having some fun with some numbers. Yeah, it's yeah, like I know you're passionate about making a change in this industry. I am really, really passionate about changing this aspect of wasted energy and time, quoting projects that are just going nowhere.

SPEAKER_00 22:07

Well, people argue with me about this all the time. Anytime we talk about it on the podcast or socials, I get slammed by people. But sort of like, how if you're charging more to run a better business, how can pricing come down? But what people don't they're overlooking is if if I'm charging what I need to charge to run a successful business and my process is so good that I'm winning, like we our win rate, it's not quite 100%, but it's very, very close. Like we we um out of the off the top of my head, out of the 27, 29 odd jobs that we've been involved with in the last probably three years, um, we've we've lost one of them. Amazing. And that's with all the price increases and everything, like that's amazing. So I don't know, might be 99.5% or something. But um that means that every time I send my plans to a supplier or a contractor, they put in the effort because they know that any work that comes from me, they're gonna get. Yeah, as long as it's like obviously we've still got to be fair and reasonable with pricing. Yeah, but yeah, like all these other builders and traders and things that are just quoting every single job that comes across their desk and not quoting it correctly, and then not making money out of those jobs, like that's the builders and the trades and the businesses that are not paying their bills on time, or possibly not paying their bills at all, or going insolvent. Like, yeah, we've seen it like last financial year, what four months ago, like 2024, 25 financial year, like over 3,200 building businesses went broke. Yeah. Like that's um to me, that all that comes down to quoting and estimating. Yep. Like not knowing your numbers, not knowing your overheads, and not pricing your work correctly.

SPEAKER_05 23:57

Yeah, and pricing the wrong projects.

SPEAKER_00 23:59

And pricing the wrong projects. So all so all that so those 32, 3,200 building companies going broke. I don't even know what the dollar value of unpaid bills left behind.

SPEAKER_03 24:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 24:13

I'm not sure if people under like people think that that money just all like just gets pushed to the side and forgotten about. That money gets has to get covered.

SPEAKER_05 24:25

Added on to all of our insurances. Supply costs. Yeah. Add it on to insurance costs. Adds on to the builder's overhead costs. So like back to that example of the guy that I was talking about this week. So he was at a position where he's like, oh, you got one in-house estimator, he does estimating, and he was thinking to keep up with his targets, he was going to hire another in-house estimator starting at$150,000 a year. And so I just rephrased that and reshaped it. And he'll probably save$200,000 a year if he just fixes his fix up, fixes up his process related to all of that. So yeah, yeah, it's it's yeah, it's brutal when you're in the world.

SPEAKER_00 25:07

Well mate, you're you're on stage today. Like, tell us how are we going to fix this? What are we uh what are we how are we gonna make builders understand? Or what I don't know, even if it's make builders understand. How how can we on today's podcast put inform like what information can we give people to help them start the journey to having a better process, estimating better, besides using you, obviously?

SPEAKER_05 25:26

Yeah, look, it's not about using, it's not about using me, it's about finding the right system that works for you. Yeah, um, I'm genuine about that. Um it's a bit of a catchphrase, but I I I really think it's a good one to hopefully stick in people's heads quote less and you will win more. You just gotta start thinking along those lines. And the way you start quoting less is by putting in a pre-construction process that's qualifying the absolute bejesus out of that lead.

SPEAKER_01 25:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 25:58

And it's a nerve-wracking thing to implement into your business. Yeah. Because everybody is of the mindset that like it's a job, it's an opportunity, I've got to get there, they're really good people. Um, I don't have anything for the boys coming up. So there's this nervousness about turning potential projects away.

Charge For Process, Not A Number

SPEAKER_00 26:19

I'm gonna back you up on that, mate, because we uh I'm massive, I'm I love data. Numbers don't lie. Like if you don't know your numbers, you can't improve things. And after a few years of us turning our business around, getting on top of things, developing lots of systems and processes. Um to me, you need the proof. Like if you want to talk about something, you want to preach about something, you have to have information back you up. Yep. So we um like I was one of the builders that jumped on board uh 2012, 2013 with the charge for quotes. Okay. I was a massive advocate for it. Um I've talked about before. Um, actually teamed up with a builders coach, flew a flew around Australia like at hardware stores, like you, we need to do this, like this is gonna change the industry. Um, and after thinking about it for a few months, I was like, no, like yes, we need to get paid, but it's got to be a process. You can't just charge for a single page um document. Yeah, so anyway, that that's where the like now it's called the pack process through LiveLike Build. But before LiveLike Build named it that, we were already doing that in DPS constructions. But to back me up with that process, because as we started getting better and better at that process, we got to the point where I was talking about before, like we win 99.5% of our jobs. Yep. I got my um Sharon, our accounts manager, to go back and review our m our biggest year, and um the old shipway we're running things, the biggest year we had we did 14 jobs. Um, so I think that was I'm pretty sure I've told me that was 2010. So that was 14 jobs we started and completed in that year. But in that same year, we quoted or estimated on 83 jobs.

SPEAKER_03 28:04

Whoa.

SPEAKER_00 28:05

So for me to get those 14 jobs, oh, and it would have been like I would have been quoting other jobs before that year to to have the flow on a thing. But yeah, our data showed that on average, like for us to win those the jobs that we needed for that year, we we had quoted 83 jobs, and that was back when we weren't charging for our prelim process. So that was 83 jobs, and also back then that was when I was quoting everything. Like I just wanted work, I needed cash, I had to keep the wheels turning. Yep. So that 83 jobs could arrange from a deck, a bathroom reno, a kitchen reno right through to a multi-million dollar home. Yep. But so that off top of that, what's that? That's um, so that's 70, that's 69 jobs that I priced and put time and effort into. That um I'd honestly say probably out of 69, probably 60 of them never even responded to me. Like a couple of them might have run back and said, Oh no, look, mate, you're too expensive, whatever the case was. But that is a lot of time and effort. Um, and again, as you touched on, like that wasn't just my time. Like, yeah, um, one of my girls back then in the office was helping me, or my trades and contractors were helping me, suppliers. So I back you 100% on that.

SPEAKER_05 29:17

If it's one thing we change, this this is this has got to be it. It will make a difference to the industry as a whole.

SPEAKER_03 29:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 29:23

Um, so yeah, and but you're right, you can't just turn around and go, you're right, yeah, I'm gonna start making people pay me for for this. You've got to you've got to present yourself as a professional. Um, you've got to put a few things in place so that you can back that up. Um but you know, we're we're we're lucky, we've got a very quite a big uh client base all over Australia that we assist. And we've been part of helping them implement uh pre-construction process. We've got you know resources that we just give away for free just to help guys get started with it. Um and yeah, the guys that are that are nailing it, doing it the way that you're you guys talk about, yeah, their success rate is up over 70, easily over 70%. 70% would be a low number. Some of them are up like you, they're pretty much 100% success rate on their projects.

SPEAKER_00 30:14

Yeah. It's um so Matt, talk us through, like you've got a few different options. Talk us through if someone reaches out to you to start getting involved, what's the options they have to work with you?

SPEAKER_05 30:24

Um well, the options sort of they almost step you through this a particular process to help you qualify your clients. So it's not just for us, estimating is not just about putting together a big, pretty tender. We go right back to where you start with with that inquiry. So, you know, we believe we've got a you know free questionnaire you can implement. Um, and then once the the client's qualified through that, and it's you know, the the individual builders responsible for that themselves. But once they've qualified that it's a decent lead, then we put them through the first step, which is what we call a QBE, which stands for a quality budget estimate. Um we we developed that name and and now it's actually quite widely referred to as a a tool, which I'm pretty it's pretty cool. Yeah. Um but so the QB is a really um short form estimate between four and eight pages long, breaks down the various components of the build and paints a forecast for where that budget's heading.

SPEAKER_00 31:23

I like how you um just to butt in on you there, like I like how you lay that out because you like you obviously use metered rates on different areas of building, but you also separate external work so it's very clear to someone that's reading that. Well, oh shoot, it's not just the build costs, like I got fence and driveway and landscaping and gates. So um, and then you also have line items in there for certification, engineering, and those types of things. So um whether the whether there's a fee in there or it's a zero, like because I my big thing is you've got to educate people. Yeah, and so if you're providing something, showing the things you're not including are just as important as the things you are including, especially in those early stages.

SPEAKER_05 32:02

Yeah, absolutely. It's it's all education. What you're doing, what the builders are doing as the client, going from inquiry through to understanding what the forecast cost is through to final completion, it's just a continual education process for the builder. Um Yeah, and that point within it within that QBE report, the way we refer to it as habitable and non-habitable. And because that's a trap that a lot of people fall into, because every and a lot of people when they're just doing lazy estimating or they're they see a project and they're trying to give people an idea about how much it costs, everyone goes back to oh, so a rough square meter eight is this, therefore it should cost this. But a a mistake that everybody does is they multiply that square meter eight by just the the the internal floor area. And that doesn't account for the pre-construction costs, the footings, foundations, the driveway, the fence, the pool.

SPEAKER_00 33:00

Well, not only that, a lot of times a deck or a patio can be just as much or more than an internal area.

SPEAKER_03 33:07

Yes, yeah.

Qualify Hard: Quote Less, Win More

SPEAKER_00 33:08

Um I had it, we I've actually just had that exact example today. So, like had a few site uh meetings this morning, just spent probably 45 minutes in the office before you showed up, and um my wife flicked me an email for a new inquiry that's come through. So, as you know, like we've got the the questionnaire and they've answered the questions, and but they've also attached a set of drawings. And so I I normally let them sit for a few days, but I thought I'm gonna just flick this one straight back to Camille before I get do the podcast. Anyway, I've opened the so in the in it part of our questionnaire is um we asked them to list how many square meters a project is and what scope of work they're wishing for and that type of thing. Anyway, long story short, they had written um I think it was like 330 square meters. And I've clicked on the plans, I've opened the plans, and I'm like, holy shit, that's not a 330 square meter house. Um, where are they getting that from? So I've I've just quickly run a ruler over it and I've got a I've come up with 544. And so this house is a lift and build of a Queenslander, but they're over-escav excavating the backyard and extending a basement with like an eight-car garage at the back of the house. So the 330 was just the house. It didn't include all this excavation and this big basement that was then going to have a yard put over it. Yeah, and um, yeah, so I've quickly done the numbers on it, and it's the budget they got. I think they said their uh maximum project spend would be 1.8 million. And I've done some really quick numbers on it and sent it back to Camille. So we'll go back to them now and just say, look, based on current projects, our very basic estimate on this project would be somewhere between two and a half and three million dollars.

SPEAKER_03 34:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 34:47

Um, but yeah, I I know what you mean. Like people have this, there's this big disconnect between what's included in a meter drape.

SPEAKER_05 34:55

Yep. Very big. And the other trap there for people that are listening that try and do that, I mean it's not a great way to operate unless you really know your numbers and using square meter eights, it's very risky. But the other trap that we often see is that all designers are different. And what they include in the little, if they put a little graph table on the side that tells the areas, yeah, if they do put it, sometimes they don't include the garage. They don't include the carport. And they certainly don't include the entry porch.

SPEAKER_01 35:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 35:24

Um, and they also measure quite often measure to the internal um floor area, not the external floor area. So there's a whole range of factors there that that can be um a pitfall.

SPEAKER_00 35:37

And that but it can add up to a lot, hey, like because they do like most of the time their software is calculating internal area, so it doesn't allow for the the space where the wall frame is. So you add up that linear meter around the entire building, like you can easily lose 10, 20, 30 square meters.

SPEAKER_05 35:51

That's right, yeah. And then even to the simplest thing, like you start adding on a uh pro climber and a and a double back, double cavity system, um then the the thickness of the wall goes is wider, therefore the rate for the whole project goes up, right? So yeah, so the process we've developed is we we help we help people put in a preliminary process, start with the QBE first. It's almost mandatory that we ask people to do that, assess the budget, and then if the client lines up on that budget, then we've they put in another preliminary agreement to charge for the next phase prior to going into what we call our FQE, which stands for full quantity estimate. And that's that's the real that's the real basis of what the where the detail and the confidence comes for the builders in what we do. Because that that process um alone goes through about 432 checkpoints prior to the builder receiving their first draft. Um, so it's it's very detailed.

SPEAKER_00 36:54

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QBE To Full Estimate: The System

SPEAKER_05 39:04

Yeah, so so and and and part that the part about this that I really love to reassure people about is the way we approach it. We feel that it's the difference between what a good estimating service looks like and what other people might have experienced in the past or why people are negative about it. Because the way we do it, it's a collaboration. You can't just give a set of plans to an estimator and get it back and then think that great and then give it to the client. Yeah. That never ever works. Um so it's a very collaborative. There's a lot of a lot of dialogue, multiple revisions all happen as part of that service structure. And even to the point that when the builder goes and presents it to the client, and this is a whole other discussion about value management and how um how extensive the requirements are to do value management on every single project.

SPEAKER_03 40:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 40:02

Um, so that being that you present a quote and they can't have quite enough money, so where can we save money? What if we change this? What if we change that? That whole scenario, it's just standard, right?

SPEAKER_01 40:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 40:13

So in our service, you come back to us, you go, with the client hasn't got money, you go, what do you do? Well, let's remove that standing scene cladding on that southern wall that's never going to get seen, and let's put something there, and we make suggestions to try and help.

SPEAKER_00 40:28

Yeah, I think it's been that's been good for me to see the backwards and forwards. Um, like you shot me a couple of emails asking for a bit more detail and stuff. I'd and that that was definitely not well, that didn't happen year, like it's it'd be 10, 12 or more years ago that we tried estimating, and that um that was what really put me off. Like they I just got a feeling that they didn't understand how we built, yeah. Um whereas your process, I feel like you you you and your team put time into finding out more about what's been discussed with a client and yeah, um, how my business is going to do something so that you can make sure it's all right. But exactly um, yeah. So is that part of the process when you start to do that um 3D modeling, or is that another step?

SPEAKER_05 41:13

The 3D model is an add-on to our full detailed estimate because not everybody wants the 3D model. Um, but if you want a 3D model which is a strict which is just focusing on the structural components only, it's not a pretty walkthrough fly-through that shows art on wall and four finishes. It's not about that, it's actually just helping the builder and and his team to visualize the structural components. Yeah, because that's really um where the time and labor gets sucked up.

SPEAKER_00 41:41

I think it's really valuable. Like just um you just showed me before some of the examples, but um, to be able to see a model like that that has all the structural components um and just get your head around it, right? From foundations in grounds to slab to post to rafters, all those types of things uh is incredibly valuable. But another thing, just to go back a little bit, I guess, um like to have like for you to uh be able to give people documentation that is so good from that from that full takeoff that they can use those takeoffs to send out supplies, and well, you tell me you can you can place orders off it, like I haven't got that far yet, but yeah, um from what I've seen, I I believe that's true. Like um just even that, like the time saving in that from uh builders not having to because most builders, and and I'll put my hand up for this as well. Like, most builders aren't doing the takeoffs to an order level during pricing. No, um, like certain things I I definitely do, but um like there's things that I've just done so many times now that I just have meter rates or linear meter rates worked out for. But to have that um time saving of you providing a full list of quantities that you can go to the hardware spot, hey, here's all the framing or here's all the list of blocks that I need for the all the retaining rules, like just the time saving in that is far more than what you charge to do that.

SPEAKER_03 43:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 43:12

Yeah, well, it's the catchphrase I use is measure twite, measure twice, quote once. Yeah. Um, and that being that exactly that do it once, do it well, right at the front end so that that project is fully set up to move straight into purchase orders when you win the contract. Because it's yeah, otherwise the builder's just constantly in that cycle of chasing his tail for the next what's the next order? What do I need next? What do I need next? What do I need next? And then they're sucked away from site, let it go back into the office. Um, and then they've got to measure the the block area and come up with their counts and then that's just pressure.

SPEAKER_01 43:46

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 43:47

So yeah, it's a big part of what we do. You we've really back that up and say that with absolute confidence that the the level of detail that we go to does mean you can um place orders from it and then track budgets, purchase orders accurately as well.

SPEAKER_00 44:01

Yeah. Do you only is most of your work for builders or do you do trades as well, like plumbers, carpenters?

SPEAKER_05 44:06

We got a few subbies that come to us. It's not never really been my main focus um because it's we really just focus on the builders. Um, but yeah, next year we're probably going to start pushing it a little bit more and offering services to more trades.

SPEAKER_00 44:21

Yeah. And what about location? Like you're based in southeast Queensland. Like, can does like can builders anywhere use you?

SPEAKER_05 44:29

Yep. Builders will the only state we don't have builders is Northern Territory. Um, but we've got builders all over Australia. Um, two reasons why we can do that. Um, well, the main reason is because it's a collaboration, it's not just information in, information out. Um, we're getting feedback on every single project, and we're learning every single project what that particular builder does and how they do it, and when we're saving that information onto their account, so that's learned information, and then that information also translates back into our databases. So we've got multiple database files depending on the regions that we're pricing stuff that can be drawn upon. Um that all you know means that we can support and enter New Zealand next year as well.

SPEAKER_00 45:15

Yeah, I'm a bit of a data nerd. I I think I don't know, you just learn so much for it. Like I can only imagine like the amount of data you must have from 18 years of price and like what have you priced, like tens of thousands of homes or I actually don't know what the number would be. It'd be a lot. It'd be a lot.

Detail, Transparency And Client Education

SPEAKER_05 45:31

Um I mean, we've really for many, many of those first few years, it was just me on my own doing, you know, a project every couple of weeks, is all you I've had the capacity for. Is as a single estimator trying to do that. There's only so many clicks a day you can do. So it was like that for a long time. Then I got another guy in um had a couple of people came in, and then I um yeah, I reached a point um probably about six years ago where I was feeling a bit burnt out. I was sitting in the estimator chair um and you know, doing all the all the things that came with that. And at that point I was like, I'm getting burnt out here. I either need to change tact or sc or try and scale this. So I just started started looking at the scaling side of of pricer plan. Okay, and have that's what we've done. So I just learned and just did a lot of of uh homework on how to do scaling effectively.

SPEAKER_04 46:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 46:34

And it's all about systems and repeatable systems. So we just started to repeat, repeat, repeat various aspects of it and been able to still maintain all the control and the quality and the ownership over it, but it's more volume going through now.

SPEAKER_00 46:48

So yeah, it's huge. I think that's awesome, mate. For any business to be successful, you've like it's all about systems and processes. But um so mate, what's your like out of all the jobs that you quote, yeah, um what is what's the percentage of work that goes ahead?

SPEAKER_05 47:02

Uh out of the full estimates that we quote, uh so give you a couple of numbers there. So if from the the quick estimates that we do, um only 25% of the quick estimates proceed through to full estimates. So that's alone, that's cutting 75% of crap.

SPEAKER_00 47:21

So that's your QBE.

SPEAKER_05 47:23

That's the QBE. The QBE cuts out that much. And then out of those 25% that make it through, the success rate on those is up around 68% going to contract.

SPEAKER_00 47:32

Yeah, that's awesome.

SPEAKER_05 47:33

Yeah. So it's a pretty good pretty good number.

SPEAKER_00 47:37

And then obviously, like you've got to repeat business. So obviously your pricing's on the money because builders keep coming back to you to keep pricing jobs. So the press and the pudding.

SPEAKER_05 47:46

Yeah, well Yeah. We've got some got some really long, long-standing clients. Some guys have been with us for 15 plus years. So help them grow from it's probably the part of that I love the most is helping younger guys that come in and they're doing decks and carports and just watching them on that journey through to building prize homes. That's that's really rewarding.

SPEAKER_00 48:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 48:08

Um, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 48:10

It is like you've I think we hit it off, mate, because that even the first time we uh caught up in person, like you'd you can tell when someone's completely into something. And um I just I love that you're on a mission to improve this part of the the industry because it's definitely something that's that's needed. Um I get absolutely smashed. Like, I don't know what it is like the last six months. Like I don't know if it's AI or um overseas companies, whatever, but like the amount of emails I get now for estimating is I hear that a lot.

SPEAKER_05 48:45

They don't they don't spam email me. I'm not sure why.

SPEAKER_00 48:48

Well, a lot of them come through Instagram, yeah. And I don't like I can only assume it's because I put so much shit out there on Instagram, but um it blows my mind that they like the and even like I I do just for curiosity, I do skim through some of them and read them, and like the like just by reading the email you can tell that it's gonna be a shit service. Um but it is it's a big part of our industry that well, number one needs improvement. Um I think number two needs to be more understood. Yeah. Um because the other the other part of it that we haven't really talked about today is a lot of clients don't end up with what they want, like what they should have got. Like, and and a lot of that comes through you say the client, the homeowner, do you think the homeowner, like through the tendering process, like um because uh the value of what they possibly want is misunderstood, and the quoting process is a bit misunderstood, and because a lot of builders don't have systems, and I know from personal experience when I used to be in the tendering scenario, like sometimes I would be doing it, other times the architect would be telling me to cut something out or change something, and so there's a lot of stuff substitution goes on for whether it's materials or products or whatever, yeah. And it may not have been translated to the client, right? And so what they had in their mind or whatever, like one thing that I'm super proud of in my business is standing back at the end of the job with a 3D image and looking at the the photograph of the finished project, and they're identical. Nice, like, and I don't think a lot of people get that. Yeah. Um, and I'd like it used to give me joy back in the day, like when we were in those tendering scenarios, like I'd make sure every now and then I'd drive past jobs that we missed out on, and I'd I'd drop every job I'd drive past and go, That I didn't quote that, I didn't quote that. Like, that should have been that, that should have been that. Like Yeah, interesting.

SPEAKER_05 50:46

Um Well, one of the one of the things we do to assist um our client, our the builder to communicate any of those changes, because they do happen naturally. It's what the value management part of what a builder has to do as part of their consultation. They have to make changes and suggestions. Um what we do separate to the actual estimate itself, we give this support document called a checklist. And the headings in our checklist relate directly to the headings in the in the estimate. And it's just jam-packed full of screenshots and explanations. So there's just screenshots everywhere and with notes in red saying I spoke to clients, said please change cladding to this highlighted section of photos there to really assist the builder to communicate um what those adjustments are because the adjustments are just they're just becoming standard.

SPEAKER_00 51:40

Yeah, like they're needed to like that's how you get a project to move forward. But um I think there's a lot of bills out there that don't communicate that. Yeah. And the clients just end up with projects that uh what they were expecting to get. Yeah. Um and that could be anything, that could be appliances, floor coverings, like um I uh I do a bit of walking with some mates and stuff. They've they've all they're all in the industry in one way or another with suppliers, whatever. But um one of them was telling me a story the other day of a client that was questioning him about what they should do because they haven't um they're building with a builder that doesn't like clients on site, and so the the job's pretty much basically close to handover, and they've finally been allowed on site to have a walkthrough. And on the plan is they've got a fireplace on site, they don't.

unknown 52:31

Oh my god.

3D Structural Models And Takeoffs

SPEAKER_00 52:33

And they're like asking my mate, like, how do we deal with this? Like, what what happens here? Like, how do we go about it? Because, yeah, on their plan, like so. My mate's told them you need to go back and check your quote. Um, and they've gone back through and checked it, and they they can't see any reference to a fireplace, and they just thought because the fireplace is shown on the drawings, it would be there, but there's been no communication that it wasn't. So now they've and that's something like it was meant to be this big feature in a in their living area that now they don't have. So it's yeah, like there's so many parts of the industry that need a makeover, yeah. Um, and yeah, that's the whole reason for this podcast, mate. Like telling these stories and and spreading the news, educating people, yeah, um, giving examples. So um, like how do builders find you? Like, what do you um I get well no but to go back from that? What position do you find builders are at when they finally reach out to you? Like, are they struggling to keep up with things or they they don't know what they're doing? Like, what's the most common sort of reasons a builder reaches out to you?

SPEAKER_05 53:39

Um, it's a good question. It's it is really quite varied. Because we get some guys that are really good operators, yeah, like yourself, who's just recently started to come and get support, but you know what you need, and they're reassured in the structure that we've got. So there's really good operators out there that are that are reassured by our process. Mine's time saving, and they're coming to us. Yeah. Um but probably the most common thing is um guys just under the pump, they're just sick of it. They can't, they can't get to it on time, they're not responding in time, they're losing opportunities, don't trust their numbers, um, looking for help. Um, that's the most common position that everyone's in.

SPEAKER_00 54:22

Yeah, mine mine was purely a time thing. Like I just um, and I guess to I guess to point out too, like this is nothing against our quotes software that we produce. So my wife Camille's actually talking to Hayden about um how we can put his information into our quotes document to make sure we're still developing or delivering a quality proposal, yeah, which I'm excited to see where we can get with to with that. But um, yeah, yeah, mine was purely a time thing because I Camille helps me out a lot with the the quoting and estimating, but I just like I'm at a point in my businesses where the quoting part isn't adding value, like my time is better off being spent somewhere else. So um, yeah, basically like that other guy, like rather than me bringing in an in-house estimator, I've reached out to you. So um yeah, I'm looking forward to seeing where the relationship goes and um how much time it saves. But the other thing, I guess the other part of it was also um to speed up our our process from meeting the client to starting on site because we were starting to become a little bit of a a um a block in the whole process, like the finance designers and that waiting for our pricing to come back so they can decide where they're gonna go to the next level. So yeah, um, which the way I look at it, like by getting you on board, speeding up that whole process, getting information back to the client designer better, then moving on to the next stage more means that my I can grow my business because we'll be able to turn over the work quicker.

SPEAKER_05 55:54

So yeah, that and you can rely on that from us. Again, because I've got a developed uh big team and it's a big system, um, we do meet our deadlines, our timelines really effectively. So we turn around those QBEs in about five days, and we turn around the F the full estimates in about um ten days. Yeah, ten days to your first draft. Yeah. And then we go through a consultation together and backwards and forwards to refine and tidy up that job. But you're delivering really confidently a week, uh sorry, a month on a full estimate. You can do that with confidence.

SPEAKER_04 56:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 56:29

So what can I explain a bit about how we go for go how we we do that?

SPEAKER_00 56:34

The floor's yours today, mate. Like we're uh we're gonna solve the building industry's quoting estimating problems today.

SPEAKER_05 56:39

So the the way we can meet our our system to meet those timelines so effectively is we've got about we've we've broken down there's 15 different category types for projects. Um, from small builds right through to high-end passive architectural. And then there's all these different categories. And then so when a project comes in, it gets classified and it falls into one of those 15 categories. And then that gets put into our scheduling system, which then finds the relevant, only the relevant estimators, because out of our team of estimators, they're all it takes them about six to twelve months before they're moving past the first two or three stages of project classification.

SPEAKER_00 57:24

I love that. I love that your team is structured as well.

SPEAKER_05 57:27

So right through to our senior team who handle the classifications up to the 10 to 15 category. Um so then the project gets classified and then it gets put into the system. It looks for the available estimators and then a forecasted time frame is put on it depending on the project classification. So, you know, uh MR6 project, it's average of about 30 to 50 hours combined with about 10 to 15 revision hours and review hours on it. Um and then that gets sent back to you, the builder, that says based on your project classification, your due date is here. So that's how we the system that we've built. Yeah. Um it means that we can, you know, confidently communicate and deliver on on um supporting the um the builders.

SPEAKER_00 58:18

No, seriously, if there's a builder that's listening to this podcast that doesn't reach out to you to talk about quoting an estimating, there's something wrong. But that that's impressive.

Procurement Packs And Trade Scopes

SPEAKER_05 58:24

Yeah, well, it's just developed by necessity as we've grown and um and as I've grown a team, you you just sort of just you don't just throw apprentices on um pitching a roof, do you? Yeah. You gotta train them through the through the process.

SPEAKER_00 58:39

So how do you go about finding estimators? Like what you obviously have a very strict criteria for them to be able to come and work with you because obviously you you don't have time to check every single thing that gets done.

SPEAKER_05 58:51

Well, we do check every single line item. So my senior estim my senior review team, and then there's a head of quality control oversees the senior review team, and every single line item is checked on every single estimate by three or four sets of eyes. All right. Yeah, it's very detailed process. Um so every line item does get checked. But as far as where do I find estimators, um, I've got I've got a bunch of team in the Philippines now, um, and I've got a big team in Australia that help support this. So my Australian team are carpenter builders, and they put the builders' lens on on top of it as as trained by me. Um, and the team in the Philippines are uh engineers. Engineers make the best estimators, hands down. I thought originally when I was starting a growing business that it made sense to bring guys off-site, carpenters, um, ex-builders or whatever, um, but not the case. They're important in the process, but they're not they're not the best ones to do the the estimating. So engineers, graduate engineers are fantastic because they're just used to reading big volumes of data. They're they're used to reading detailed structural plans. Um, they can interpret and translate that information really well, and they're great at spreadsheets. Um, so that's where I go to. So looking for to build my team, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:18

Yeah. Um so talk us through a little bit of you mentioned before that you've got some uh free documents and things that you you don't mind giving out to people that uh want to improve the way their business operates. What what what are those documents?

SPEAKER_05 1:00:31

Um you can grab it from their website. If you just go to a website, there's a resources thing there. It's called a pre just called a pre-construction process. It's a free download. Um, it starts with a sample questionnaire. There's two sort of preliminary agreements. A preliminary agreement for phase one to do a QBE, and then another preliminary agreement for phase two to do the full estimate. So there's just samples, they're just Word documents. Take them, brand them, reword them, do whatever you want. Just implement something to help change this aspect of your business and the industry. Yeah. Um, there's a sample there of like a sales document that sort of says, okay, I'm Dwayne, I'm freaking awesome. I can build this, I can build that. Just that type of uh presentation document. So if you're gonna start charging for quotes, you've got to be able to back it up with with with a professional sales process. That's pretty much what that is. So that's free. Just go grab that. More people the better because it's changing the industry. Yeah, that's the free resource that we just give away.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:34

I think it's fantastic, mate. And obviously, you're a massive fan of it as well. Like, I I think anybody that's not doing the some sort of pre-construction service that they get paid for is crazy.

SPEAKER_05 1:01:46

Um it's exactly in line with with with with your pack process. Yeah. It's exactly in line with that. So anyone that knows what that is, this this will resonate with that. And take what we've got and implement it into what you've currently got. It's constant refinement.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:01

Yeah, we're we're definitely constantly improving ours and and taking it next level. The um like part of our fees that we're getting paid now are obviously going towards being able to bring you in and pay for your services. So we pay for that, not the not the client. It's just become part of our um so we're currently updating our uh pre-construction paperwork to re be reworded to let their clients know that we're outsourcing parts of it. Awesome. Um, because again, I I think it's important to let the clients know exactly what's happening in the process. Yeah, but um we're also at a point with ours, we've we've been doing this for a while now, probably 12, 18 months or more. But um there is some of our trades now that we're giving um some fees to as well, because we know that there's a few trades that um it doesn't happen on every job, but there might be the odd job where uh in our in our old process around the third round of costings, where the client is really unsure or it's hard to get on paper what they're wanting with maybe it's joinery or electrical or something like that. So we'll organise a meeting for them to go and start meeting with those contractors so they can really start to nut that out. And so we'll give those trades a fee because we don't expect them to be doing that extra time for nothing. So, and I I ultimately I want to get to a point where even if it's only a hundred dollars, but all of our trades are getting like the ones that provide us with quotes, yeah, which um quite like sometimes can be quite a lot, that we're giving them something back. And again, that's just to to help build the relationship, but also I'm a massive believer that if someone's invested in something, they're gonna provide better information. Yep. So if our trades know that shit, I'm gonna get a hundred bucks off Dwayne. No other builder's paying me to sit up at night and do this. Like, I'm gonna make sure I do a good job of this. And like I said before, they know that there's a 99% chance that if they're quoting our work, that work's gonna come through.

Scaling An Estimating Team

SPEAKER_05 1:04:02

Yeah, that's amazing. Yeah, there is another service that we offer as well, which is again is an add-on to the the um the full estimates, and it's called procurement, where we do all of the trade takeoffs and the trade scopes for every single trade on the project. Yeah, and so we give the builder a pack, a procurement pack of about 30 to 50 uh itemized trade scopes that then he can use to give to his contractors and trades.

SPEAKER_04 1:04:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:04:34

So that I know is another way that builders are building that relationship and that rapport with their suppliers by valuing them.

SPEAKER_03 1:04:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:04:41

And saying, look, I know you're busy here, I've done this part of it for you. Um that's another way of giving back to the guys that you you really believe in.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:50

Yeah, I think that's massive, mate. And I'm I'm really pleased to hear you're doing that. Like, we give scopes to like our Quite East template has um scopes that we've developed over the years, like and so now some trades, that's that's their standard, um, that's how they price their jobs because they know that's what we want. Yeah. But um, like to me, scopes or works are more important than the price. Yeah. Like um, like you if you're asking a contractor or supplier to quote something, like even if there's a fully documented set of drawings and there's a specification, that doesn't mean that you're gonna build it, like every builder will put something together differently or have their own sort of little way of how it should be done. And so without providing a scope of works to like the plaster, for example, like letting him know that where you want, like how many where you want expansion joints and what type of finish you want to run, like do you want shadow lines or little tearaways or all those little things, like they're the things that are going to make a big difference between the pricing you get back. Um, but also more importantly, I think the scopes of work like that is so valuable to a client. Like, that's the whole reason behind quotes. Like you like, I think a quote is something that a supplier or a trade should give a builder, a proposal is what a builder should give a client.

SPEAKER_04 1:06:10

Right.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:10

And a proposal should have very little um, like only prime cost divisional sum pricing and a final figure, but it should have a huge list of scopes of work. So the client should know the exact type of skirting they're getting, arch trave they're getting, the types of internal doors they're getting, the types of door stops, the where the tiling is and how high the tiling's gonna be, and all that type of information because without that information, the price means nothing.

SPEAKER_05 1:06:37

So true.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:39

Like if you if you're and for I guess for clients that might be listening to this, is there a fireplace in this or not? Well, 100%. Like um, so yeah, we're we're huge on that. And the other thing that we're really big on is on the first page of our document, so where it's got our details, client details, job address, and that type of thing, um, we have a description box where uh we obviously put which round of costing it is, um, so that we can always make sure we refer back to one if something gets changed. But I believe the most important line item to put on any proposal or quote is that um we basically say that um please take your time to review this proposal thoroughly um because if it if it is not listed in this proposal, it is not included, even if it is shown on the plans and the and and listed in the specification. Yeah. Because I don't know, I just there's certain things that when you come to when you're close to the end and you the job's progressing that still need clarification.

SPEAKER_03 1:07:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:38

And I would rather I would rather point out to the client that hey, we still haven't priced it, um, or we've got an allowance in there because it's there's too much uncertainty around it. Yep. Um, so yeah, we really try and encourage them to to thoroughly go through it. And if there's because I don't know what's in their head, yeah, what they're thinking. Like they might, and they might have had a conversation with the architect or the designer or the the cabinet maker when they met them or something that I'm not aware of.

SPEAKER_05 1:08:04

So there's so many moving parts in a in a build and in a in an estimate that the more you can spell it out, the more clarity you can put in there, the better it's gonna be for everybody. Yeah, we've got a dedicated section in every estimate for client notifications. And then as we identify things through the estimating process, we're just filling up that section. And another dedicated section for exclusions. So we build that as the estimate's progressing as well. So note of identifying things, you go, I'm not sure about that. Well, chuck it in. If you're not sure, chuck it in exclusions, flag it, then we have a discussion with the builder and we decide which way we want to go with it. Yeah. Yeah, it's communication and education is what the builder's responsibility is.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:46

It's it's a no-brainer, man. I like my view, I think why I've got to this level and what I do is like I'm very cautious that like whether someone's spending a hundred grand or a hundred million, like everybody's got a limit. And I do believe there's a lot of builders out there that don't think about that. Like they just think, oh well, if the client wants it, they they're gonna have to pay more money. But sooner or later, some people's money runs out.

SPEAKER_03 1:09:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:11

And I would rather be completely transparent up front with them and let them clearly know what I'm unsure on, what I haven't included, so that they can figure out if they want to do it now, if they don't want to do it, or what it is so that we can get it right from the beginning, yeah, rather than just let it come up during the project and become a variation or or something. Because um, we all know variations can get uncomfortable if a client hasn't got the funds for them. Awful.

SPEAKER_05 1:09:37

Yeah, it's a sad reality. Like in the conversations I have, I I really quite often hear this when we're reviewing a job that we've completed with the builder and and the and I hate it when I hear the builder go, Oh, they've got the money, they can afford it. They'll be right. I hate that.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:56

Oh, I hate that too.

SPEAKER_05 1:09:57

It's just like, well, um that's fair enough, but we still have to spell out exactly where this quote stops. Um yeah, because you can't be lazy. And I think that's the the of quite often the the approach that's been taken to estimating because people just haven't got a system or haven't got the time is they just go, Oh, they can afford it, just chuck 40 grand on that, that should do. Yeah, you know, yeah. It will it will come back to bite you.

Data, Regions, And Turnaround Times

SPEAKER_00 1:10:22

Well, and then they those same builders mate wonder why they're in a shitty situation that's there's arguments and they're not getting paid and all those types of things. So there's the more you can the more honest you can and transparent you can be up front, the better. But um mate, look, I really, really appreciate your time today. I um I definitely think we'll get you back in the future to continue this conversation. But thank you. Mate, before we get out of here, what's the number one thing that people can do to improve their estimating process?

SPEAKER_05 1:10:51

I think develop your pre-construction process. Make sure that by the time you actually sit down to start working on an estimate, if you're doing it yourself, if you've got someone in the office, or if you're outsourcing it, make sure that when you actually start to do that full quality estimate, that you feel like you're gonna have a hundred percent chance of winning that job. And the only way to do that is by develop your pre-construction. Create those hoops that people have got to jump through before you even sit down and start.

SPEAKER_04 1:11:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:11:19

Work on that part of it. That's the part of the industry where it'll make a massive difference to the industry as a whole, and and then that'll translate into your bottom line in your business as well.

SPEAKER_00 1:11:28

Yeah, awesome, mate. Where can people find you?

SPEAKER_05 1:11:31

priceapplan.com.au or on all the socials. Oh, and check out the um the Little Road tour series we've just filmed.

SPEAKER_00 1:11:40

Oh, yeah, right now.

SPEAKER_05 1:11:42

Yeah, so that's out on YouTube, on PricetoPlan YouTube channel, or you can find it from our website as well. So we've done a 12-part little documentary series where we traveled up and down the coast of Australia and went and visited builders that are clients of ours. And each episode's between about six and twelve minutes long, and we just wanted to showcase the real stories, the reality of what the builders are dealing with on a project.

SPEAKER_00 1:12:04

Awesome. That I know we're about to wrap it up, but tell us a little bit more about that. Like, how did that all come about?

SPEAKER_05 1:12:09

Well, we're trying to we're trying to look at looking at ways to raise awareness in the industry and all at the same time as raising our profile as a business. Um, and it was actually came about because there was a band I wanted to see in Melbourne. And so we did a little road trip with the family and um met a bunch of friends down there, and I thought, well, while I'm down there, I should stop and meet some people and do a bit of social media, you know, selfie type stuff. But then I, I don't know, like all great ideas, they come to me at 3 a.m. in the morning. I was like, why don't we just actually film this and turn it into a repeatable thing? So I just started to explore the idea of doing it as a production. Um yeah, and it it really seemed to stack up as a good idea, so yeah, we did it.

SPEAKER_00 1:12:59

Awesome. So you did you do it yourself, or you took someone to film it?

SPEAKER_05 1:13:02

I took a film crew.

SPEAKER_00 1:13:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:13:03

It took a film crew and it's all professionally done.

SPEAKER_00 1:13:06

I mean we gonna check that out.

SPEAKER_05 1:13:07

Yeah, we've yeah, 12 episodes, and each episode's slightly different builder in a different phase of their career. And the idea was to really just showcase the reality of what's going on for the builder. And and I really hope that that gets some traction in the the homeowner, the the mums and dads that are trying to build a home, yeah, that they can look at it and go, yeah, wow, there's a lot that goes into that and create some insight for the industry as a whole as to what those realities are for the builder.

SPEAKER_00 1:13:37

Yeah. Well, look, for everyone listening, support Aiden and uh what he's done there and go and check that out. So what's it price to plan? Is that just price plan on YouTube?

SPEAKER_05 1:13:46

Yeah, the price of plan YouTube channel.

SPEAKER_00 1:13:48

Yeah, go and check it out and um yeah, I'm I'm definitely gonna go and check that out, mate. But um mate, very last thing, what's level up mean to you?

SPEAKER_05 1:13:57

Leveling up means making things fairer and squarer for everybody in the industry, um, bringing back the balance into the lives of builders so that they can sleep better, they can teach better, they can mentor better, and have a better family life. Leveling up means just creating an even playing field for all the builders out there in the industry. That's what it's about. Yeah, educating.

SPEAKER_03 1:14:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:14:29

Awesome, mate. Well, look, really appreciate your time. Um, yeah, we'll definitely be, well, you're doing some stuff for level up, uh, for live life build as well. So getting involved there. Um, but yeah, really keen to see where we where we take it. And uh, I guess look for anyone that is out there that's um if you've got any questions, I'm happy to uh put my hand up and and preach for what um Hayden and his team do. Um we're definitely in the early stages of it, but I can already see the benefits of it. But um look, as always, make sure you we've noticed with the uh podcasts that there's a lot of people that aren't subscribing on Spotify and all those types of things. So make sure you um subscribe and keep liking so you'll get notified when a new podcast comes out. But yeah, like, share, subscribe, tell the world about this podcast so we can continue to make this Australia's number one construction podcast. Look forward to seeing you on the next one.