Why 7000 Australian Builders Went Broke While We're In A Housing Crisis | ft. Scott Challen

7000 Australian builders went broke in the last two years.
We're in the middle of a housing crisis.
How is that even possible?

This week I sat down with Scott Challen from QHI Group, builder, businessman and one of the most switched on voices in the Australian building industry right now — for one of the most fired up conversations we've had in the shed.

We get into why housing is becoming unaffordable, why builders keep going broke, why we can't find enough trades, and why the people making the rules have absolutely no idea how this industry actually works.
This one pulls no punches.

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:05

Hello, welcome back to another episode of Level Up. We are back in the shed today for another cracking episode. And I tell you what, I'm pumped because I don't know where this podcast is going to go. Um it could cover a lot of different agendas, but we'll try and keep it uh about the building industry. But um the guest we have with you today is uh he's definitely been a bit of an influence. I've only met him probably six, seven months ago, and I follow all his stuff on socials now, and I think he's playing a very key role uh in what's happening in our country at the moment. So um we'll see if we can touch on a little bit of that and uh give you a little bit of background of how he's uh started doing what he's doing now. But a massive warm welcome to Scott Challon. How are you, buddy?

SPEAKER_01 0:47

Thanks, Duane. Great to be here. I really appreciate that.

SPEAKER_00 0:50

So um, mate, for those guys that don't know who you are, they can look you up on uh Instagram at shallow underscore challeng.

SPEAKER_01 0:59

Shallow underscore chall c a l. Shallow, yep.

SPEAKER_00 1:03

So go and check Scott out because he's yeah, he's got some opinions that uh probably need to be heard by a lot of people. But um, mate, I was introduced to you by uh um Jared Rennick that came on my podcast earlier in the year, and then he brought you along to my level up experience event that we did. Um and mate, I I think it's awesome. Like I love meeting passionate people, and you are definitely one of those.

SPEAKER_01 1:27

I'm I'm not sure

Welcome And Meet Scott Challon

SPEAKER_01 1:28

if my passion meets the level up level, though, Dwayne. When I went to that event that you ran, mate, I was blown away. I like the the scale of it, the intensity of it, you know, the passion about the building industry, and that's shone through with what you do as well, mate. You're so passionate about it, you're trying to empower people to be better. It was a perfect combination. I got a lot out of that that day in that event. I'm still using the level up notebook, by the way, as well.

SPEAKER_00 1:52

So, mate, I guess before we get into what you do now, like you're definitely an influencer, but um, take us back to like because you're a builder as well, and so yeah, which is which is more important at the moment.

SPEAKER_01 2:05

And being an influencer is a weird title to have, isn't it? You know, um, but I guess being a builder adds a little bit of credibility to it. Although I get a lot of people say, you're not a real builder, mate, you're the carport builder, you know. But at the end of the day, I'm dealing with the the layers of regulation, councils, suppliers, all that sort of stuff, just at on at a multi-level scale, because we do so many projects, as opposed to, you know, when we were doing houses and renovations, there was a lot less of them, but they were longer relationships, as you're aware. So we got I kind of the the business steered into that home improvement side of things, Dex patios, carports, because we were trying to shorten the relationship with customers and really narrow that stuff down into a lane that we're really good at, which is that, you know.

SPEAKER_00 2:46

Yeah. Well, I think if we can talk a bit about all that and your background, mate, because you've also been in the army as well.

SPEAKER_01 2:53

Air Force uh did my five years in the RAF. Um, but uh I look, I went to an agricultural college for year 11 and 12, a boarding school in WA, and that was a farming school out in the wheat belt and learnt about farming, you know, and uh wanted to work on farms, wanted to work on stations up north in WA and be a jackaroo. And I did my year 12 and got my certificate in agriculture and then got a job as a jackaroo and went and worked on stations for a while and worked on farms and big uh broadacre cropping properties in the wheat belt. And uh I spent the next kind of four years doing that and really enjoyed the farm life, except you don't make any money and there's no girls in the bush, mate. So, you know, when you when you're a young man and you're 20, 21 years old and you're like, I've got itchy feet, you know, and uh wanted to meet some people, it was not that great. But I I was chatting to a guy that was building a shed on a job on a farm I was working at one day, and he he was out working out around the wheat belt, building, you know, big farm sheds. And uh got a job with him as an offsider. And I, you know, when you're when you work on farms where you come through ag college, you've got to learn how to build anyway. It's really one of the basic tenets of farming is knowing how to fix things and make things. And so it was a really easy transition to get into building sheds, prefabricated sheds. And I loved it. I thought it was great. I wasn't scared of heights and I liked big sheds, and that's really kind of how I got my intro into the building industry in WA, which is very different

From Farms To Sheds

SPEAKER_01 4:10

back in the 90s because I'm you know I'm 53 now, but back then you didn't really need to be licensed, you know, tickets were kind of few and far between. And when you're in the middle of nowhere, no one really cares anyway. But it was a great intro. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, but I was lucky because I was I did that for about two years, and then I got the opportunity to go to West Africa and uh build sheds in West Africa, and so I went over there and worked for a mining company installing these uh these steel pre pre prefabed uh structures over there, these two big sheds for their mining equipment. And uh I was I was offshore for about six months, you know, and that was really what gave me the shot in the arm with a bit of money to start my own shed building crew when I got back to Australia.

SPEAKER_00 4:47

Mate, that's unreal. Like you just keep inspiring, mate. Like you've you've done a lot and you've come a long way. And like again, and like I I like knowing all this, like, because it sort of it adds more value to the content that you're creating, like when people know more about your backstory and uh where you've come from and your passion and all that sort of thing. Like, so you like you're an Aussie through and through. Like you've you've lived, you've worked in the bush.

SPEAKER_01 5:10

Yeah, and I was a skellywag as well, mate. Let's not gloss it up too hard. I got in my fair share of trouble and stuck my fingers in things I shouldn't have as well, you know. And uh yeah, and uh and did all the dumb things that young Aussie guys do. So, you know, definitely wasn't a saint and um and had a good time and and you know, worked hard, played hard, and uh, and enjoyed that. And look, I took that money that I got in Africa and came back, started it, started mine shed building crew. Um, I had enough experience at that point to understand how to square things and level things and dig footings and you know, and uh and and profile it out. So that was that was good enough and did did well with that and enjoyed doing that for a couple more years. But I had a bust up in a relationship when I was in my, you know, I was 26. And uh one day, mate, I was hung over as hell saw an ad in the paper for the Air Force, and it was a reserve job that said, Do you want to play real life skirmish for a year? That's what it said. You want to play real life skirmish for a year? And I went, well, that sounds interesting. It's only 12 months, it'll get me out of my head and go and do something interesting. And I ended up going into recruiting, the sexiest flight lieutenant you've ever seen in her full blues was at the door. Come on in, Mr. Challenge. And I was like, Yep, I'm joining the Air Force, mate. That was wouldn't have mattered what I wanted to do. That uniform had me. I was done, mate. So yeah, I joined and it was a it was like a ground combat infantry type role in the Air Force, doing airfield security. Yeah, and uh it was they called it specialised, it had a really high fitness level. It was a hard job, and um, and and it was really character building and and you know, really tested you to your limits. It had a huge attrition rate, so like 75% of the guys who started it didn't graduate it. So it was really hard to get through. It was a tough six months. And uh graduated, got the blue beret that they gave you when you graduate. And I thought I was king of the world, mate. And uh then Timor kicked off in '99, and they were looking for guys to rotate to Timor. And they went, Do you want to go to Timor? I went, Absolutely, I want to go to Timor. So they offered us a four-year contract full-time to go from reservist to full-time with the rotation to Timor. And I went, Yep, I'm going. I signed that and uh got ready, did all the pre-prep training, the pre-deployment training, all the rest of it. And uh then at the last minute, they scratched the deployment on us and uh and we didn't go. So I was signed up for another four years at that point without it without a tour overseas.

SPEAKER_00 7:29

So yeah, right. But um, like it's funny, we've had a lot of guests on that I would never have picked to have come from like Army, Air Force, all that sort of stuff. But uh, I imagine you learn a lot of skills in that environment doing that type of uh training and that work, and especially like culture and team and hard work and all that sort of stuff.

SPEAKER_01 7:49

You learn how to eat shit. That was uh that was a big part of it. And and to not set your expectations too high and to be ready for anything. And uh that was that was uh uh you know a pretty awesome part of that. Good camaraderie. I've got great mates from those days that I'm still good friends with. Yeah. And I don't regret for a second, you know, the to the time that I did. I ended up doing the full five years and uh was, you know, whether good or bad, I happened to be in there when the war on terror kicked off. And so we got to be a part of you know, preparing for deployments and and getting the squadron ready and doing all those type of things for that. You know, I still didn't get an overseas trip, which I which I always regret, but I like like I said, I don't regret the uh the fact that I did that because it looked set me up when I ended up going into business, you know, for myself again, to be more disciplined, more focused, more structured, and to be ready for more things that can go wrong as well.

SPEAKER_00 8:38

So, where where were you located when you came out of that and kicked off your business again?

SPEAKER_01 8:42

Yeah, well, I was out at Amberley uh in Brisbane here, and when I got out of the the RAF in uh in 04, um I decided to stay in Brisbane because I love it here. Like Queensland's the best place in Australia. When I came from Perth, which was a dry, dusty shithole, you know. So you know, no offense to the bigger. I've never I've never been over there. I do want to get over there, but never been there. Hot summers, mate, you know, really dry. I don't love WA, but I've you know I had no desire to move back there. I've stayed here and you know, had my daughters here and got married here, and this is where I made home. So I you know, I got out of the RAF and I'd had some knee surgeries by that stage, and I didn't want to get back on the tools again. I didn't want to be, you know, crawling around on roofs and doing all that. So I thought I'll learn how to sell. And I got a job with a building company learning how to sell, and that was uh that was a game changer because if you know how to build and you know how to sell, you're basically unstoppable. You know, and uh then ended up becoming a sales manager for that building company. Um, had eight sales reps underneath me. You know, we had uh, you know, a couple of million dollars a month in KPI targets for the company, and we were doing really well. And then GFC hit and uh they decided to wrap up, mate. That was that. So I got to experience the slowdown, the crunch, you know, the company going deciding to close up those operations and um be a part of you know, putting eight people out into redundancies as well and and wrapping up the business, which was a

Air Force Discipline And Business Reset

SPEAKER_01 10:01

real eye-opener, mate, because yeah, if you haven't seen that before from the inside, that's a whole nother experience.

SPEAKER_00 10:06

So, mate, after all that, what made you want to go out and do it yourself?

SPEAKER_01 10:10

Well, it was out of that because I had a customer who contacted me and said, Look, I know you've canceled my building contract and refunded the money through the company I was working for. Do you know anyone else that could do it? And so I contacted one of the tradies and said, Do you want to do this job? And he went, Yeah, I'll do it. And I went, Well, I'll sell it, get the BAs through, do the paperwork and the contracts under your license, and let's build the job. And we did, we did one job. You know, we made a bit of profit and we sat back at the end of it and went, Maybe we should do another one. There we were. That was that. Unreal. 17 years later, here I am.

SPEAKER_00 10:46

Oh mate, I love these stories, and that's yeah, I think that again, that I think that's why the podcast goes well because we're just sharing stories. Like people, everyone, a lot of people feel like there's this set road that you go on to get to where you want to go. But like your story's already telling us that you there's a lot of ups and downs along the way, and you never know where you're gonna end up, and you never know what's gonna what you're gonna have to go through to get to somewhere.

SPEAKER_01 11:08

Isn't that the best part of the journey though? I think so. We all want to get to the destination, but uh looking back on it now, the the ride has been fun. Yeah, ups and downs, terror, enjoyment, excitement, big contracts, bad contracts, you know, lost money, made money. But at the end of the day, you're still here doing business. You your word, you know, is your name as far as I'm concerned. You say you're gonna do something, you do it. You hang around with people that want to be good at what they do, and you'll be successful if you set your mind to it.

SPEAKER_00 11:34

You know, 100%. Oh, yeah, I love it, mate. Love your attitude and uh your work ethic and all that sort of stuff. So you um like you're very with all the stuff you put out on your Instagram, like you have very strong opinions on things. The um I don't want to go into the um some of what you talk about today. I want to try and keep it around the building side of things. But like can we talk a little bit because I I definitely am no expert in this sort of thing, but like can we talk a little bit about the the building industry, red tape, uh how immigration affects our workforce and all those types of things?

SPEAKER_01 12:08

Well, this is you know, we're we're here in 2025, we've got a massive housing crisis happening, and we've got record amounts of builders going broke. Make that make sense. How is that possible? And you know, 17 years in business, the industry isn't the same as when I started my my business in 2009. It's not the same industry. Um, the layers of regulation and compliance that have come into how we operate these building companies now, you know, we we want to have a good, safe building industry. We want to make sure that uh customers are protected, that the that we can operate effectively and deliver product. But when the balance tips in favor of the government collecting more money than anybody else, you've really got to wonder what's going on here. And so at the tail end of, well, during COVID, when you know we started to see these massive price spikes in materials with fixed price contracts, we all were wearing those ones,

Housing Crisis And Compliance Blowouts

SPEAKER_01 13:03

right? Because none of us were really prepared contract-wise for what was about to happen. And the market was already red hot, you know, in 2020. We already couldn't find trades. We already had massive pressure on how we were managing our businesses when 2020 kicked off. And then when COVID happened, it was like, whoa, what's going on here? You know, and and that was really the uh the penny drop moment for me. When the borders reopened in 2022, I went to Thailand, first holiday overseas, and I was like, thank God, let's get out of Australia. And I was talking to an expat over there, and uh, an English guy who just moved over there, and he was building a house, showed me the plans, was 65,000 bucks, you know, and you know, it was Thai built. Um, you get what you pay for, um, different standard, obviously, to compare to what we have in Australia, but still a really good quality home, you know, for what it was. And I'm looking at this thing going, you couldn't do that for 400 grand back home. What's going on here? And that was really uh, you know, the eyes open moment. I came back, I made a piece of content about it on TikTok, on TikTok, right? Because and I just finished reading a book about personal branding. And I made that TikTok, threw it up, didn't even look at TikTok for a week. And one of my daughters comes in and goes, Dad, have you seen that TikTok you made? I'm like, why? What happened? She's gone, it's gone viral. Half a million views. Oh, it's I I picked up 10,000 followers in four days, and it was like, shit, I'm saying something that people want to hear here. How come you can't build a house in Australia like this? Because this house would suit a young family. You know, they don't have disability access requirements. You know, if they were happy to live like this, why can't you live like that? And I you know, I think that we should be able to live in the homes that we can afford. And I don't think that people should be homeless because of that. You know, and that was really the guts of it.

SPEAKER_00 14:49

100%, mate. The um where I feel like like I I think you agree, like I feel like there is so many things we could do to change our industry in an instant, to make housing more affordable, to build more homes, to employ more people.

SPEAKER_01 15:04

But yeah, the people that are running this show don't understand how this industry works, all there's some sort of agenda behind it, maybe, but it just seems the uh we have peak bodies though, like Master Builders, HIA, these are lobby groups for us for the industry. But is it getting better? I mean, I'm not ragged on, don't get me wrong, I'm a member, but I I look at it and go, Well, has things improved? You've been in business for a long time as well, Johnny. You've been around a lot of builders, right? You've seen this. You know, how many builders are hitting the wall, you know, with uh repay with payments, stage payments, robbing Peter to pay Paul, using you know this deposit to finish that contract, not really sure where their margins are. And it's an industry that isn't well structured for the longevity of building companies. And I think it was the professional builder. Um I saw some of their content, like 80% of builders fail in the first five years. If you make it to 10 years, you you're you're literally 3% of the hundred that started.

SPEAKER_00 16:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 16:01

That that scares crap out of me.

SPEAKER_00 16:03

Mate, even like we know, excuse me, from um like the surveys and the data and everything that we've done from my training business Live Life Build, like 70 to 80 percent of the construction industry is trading in solvent. Like, and uh that's because people just simply don't understand their numbers, they're not taught how to understand their overheads and their running costs, and even things like identify the roles that they play in their businesses and pay themselves correctly for that role and all those types of things. And when you um like I'm a member of Master Builders and all those as well, I think they do a great job at some things and a very poor job at some other things. Um, but I think my biggest one of my biggest problems with the industry is a lot of people that are in our industry that are making the rules, making the regulations, pulling the strings, have never have never managed to run a successful business in the industry.

SPEAKER_01 16:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 17:00

And yet they're sitting there making all these calls and this red tape and these regulations that we have to follow and have no understanding of the impact that that has. And like I'm I put my I say this all the time on the podcast, like I put my hand up. Uh we do, we try very hard on my jobs, but I guarantee you, like my jobs, if I had to run my jobs to code to safety regulations, and do every single thing that we have to do, it would add another 30 or 40 percent on top of the cost again.

SPEAKER_01 17:31

Isn't that crazy?

SPEAKER_00 17:32

Like it's just it's impossible to do everything that they want us to do.

SPEAKER_01 17:35

That's um, you know, it's impressive that you're prepared to say that as well. Because I I know, you know, when I started making content calling out the absurdities in this productivity and in the way we have to run our projects to be profitable, um, I copped a lot of like online hate from the standard people going quick, send workplace health and safety out to Scotty's jobs and check them. Yeah, you know, that was the kind of thing that was thrown at you for trying to help people understand what we're dealing with here and trying to keep our businesses afloat and going. Yeah. No, I don't think anybody intentionally wants to do the wrong thing. I don't I've never met anyone in this industry that went, you know what, I'm just gonna rip these people off and steal half a million bucks. Everyone I know has bled bullets, mate, to do what they're doing, to get it, to get where they are. You know, it's no easy just to register a company, get a website up and do some advertising. You know, you're tens of thousands of bucks down the hole, mate, before you've even before you've even swung a hammer.

SPEAKER_02 18:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 18:32

You know, so how are you meant to get a start and get ahead? It's not as simple as, well, it was a lot easier back in 09. I'm I'm gonna own that, you know, it was easier.

SPEAKER_02 18:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 18:42

Uh, but now, you know, I mean, almost everyone you talk to, we would have seen a 20% increase just on insurances in the last 12 months.

SPEAKER_00 18:49

Yeah, uh even on that, mate. Like I did a podcast a little while ago that's um why it's so expensive to build a home in Australia, and I did a comparison between two jobs. I saw that one. Um one of the things I didn't talk about on that when I was comparing the numbers was the home warranty insurance back then compared to what it is now, yeah, was like everything else that costs the job had pretty much gone up sort of two to two and a half times. There was a few things that had gone to three times, but the home warranty insurance had gone up nine times. Yep. Like it wasn't it was a 9X. Yep.

SPEAKER_01 19:24

And I I also relate that back to the cost of a building approval as well. Yeah. You know, I mean that's the insurance part of it, but layer in what it costs to get a BA stamp now, and in, you know, um, they threw in a whole bunch of landslide overlays into Southeast Queensland, added another layer. Yeah, this is a habitat protection area, this tree's got an order on it. Um, that's a boundary setback issue. You've got uh you know a development code application requirement here because of the site coverage. Like there's all these things that come in now. Yeah, and it feels like every job we go to do, we hit a roadblock somewhere. And they're not just friction points anymore, they're literally roadblocks. And it's up for 2,000 bucks and 3,000 bucks, and the homeowner's up for another 1,500. And and you know this yourself as well, is the longer these jobs take to get through a building approval, that every day is more margin gone. It's just little slices that fill it off just a little bit here, a little bit there. But in this high inflation environment, and I I get really antsy about this one because the government starts telling you inflation's at 2.5 to 3, 3.5%. Well, I'm pretty confident that most builders watching this would probably say there's somewhere between five and ten in our industry.

SPEAKER_00 20:32

Yeah, definitely.

SPEAKER_01 20:33

Consistently at least compounding, yeah, you know, and and then every day there's a bill shock with something that comes out of the blue, like another insurance policy that's gone up by 20%, or your vehicles have gone up, you know.

SPEAKER_00 20:43

So they say that, mate, but like you would know as well, like every three months you you're getting emails from steel suppliers, concrete suppliers, glass suppliers, like saying, Oh, look, we've got to go up another two and a half percent, we've got to go off another three percent, we've got to go off another 1.8%. Like it just it doesn't stop. No, it doesn't. Um, and I like I um I've talked a little bit about wages and those types of things here before, but they yes, they've gone up, but nowhere near the rate that they should have gone up. Like um when you compare it to everything else that's getting used on the on the job sites, like the costs that it now takes to to cover all your insurances and to get all your approvals and even just material costs. Um and I've like a lot of that is uh transport costs and diesel and all those things. Like I don't know where it's gonna end, but I feel like there's so many moving parts. Uh my goal would is just to sort of calm it down and just sort of get everybody to understand like at the end of the day, the cost are the cost, but one thing that people don't talk about is expectations as well, and that's a whole other podcast. But building costs are gonna continue to go up, but people's expectations are going up faster than what the cost of building materials and stuff are. But what are what's your thoughts on land? Labour, like we like you were in Brisbane. Like, how I don't know how we're gonna do this Olympic work. Like myself and every single trade and builder and supplier I know at the moment could easily employ more people. Yeah, we just can't get them.

SPEAKER_01 22:14

Yeah, but it it's always been like that, Dwayne. I mean, I'm looking back to 09. We were struggling for Labour. Oh seven, you know, when I was uh sales manager for that building company, labor. You know, it's always been labor, it always has been, and which is you know why I'm bullish on doing trades, kids. If you're watching this do a trade, um, you know, don't worry about you and e just go get a trade. We are always gonna, we've always struggled as far back as I can remember. We'll always struggle going forward. And you know, reflect this back to my own company. We haven't, we haven't had an apprentice finish their whole trade with us, you know, in like 17 years. Yeah, and I'm I'm I' gutted by that. I I really am, because we've started shit, we must have started 50 kids. We haven't finished one. What is going on with that, mum? You know, and I look back at it, we you know, we nurture them, we look after them, we pay them more money, we pat them on the back, we tell them they're awesome, and then mum rings up and says, Little Johnny's not coming to work tomorrow.

SPEAKER_00 23:10

I don't know if you've seen it, but um only the last few days I saw a uh a post from Dana White just saying that like the new generation are just fucking pussies.

SPEAKER_01 23:22

It's not hard to shine, right?

SPEAKER_00 23:23

Yeah, like that's what's basically it. Like, if you want to make money and you want to do well, like it's not fucking hard because this we've got this whole generation now of just fucking pussies that won't don't like getting out of bed on time, don't like putting in a hard day's work, don't like following instructions. Uh and he's out there putting that out there to the world to um to hear. And I I'd have to say, I'm I'm pretty like on the same page. All right, guys, I want to introduce you to a really exciting new product that I believe is going to play a massive role in Australia building healthier homes. As you all know, I am extremely passionate about healthy homes, and I'm doing a lot of research and putting a lot of time and effort into making sure my construction business is leading the way when it comes to building healthy homes here in Australia. We've teamed up with the guys from Highwood Timber. Highwood Timber are pioneering condensation management with their high flow ventilated LVL batten system. High flow battons give builders a stronger, straighter, and smarter way to create a ventilated cavity behind cladding and underneath roofs without compromising on structural performance. While tackling condensation to improve building health and ease of insulation, highwood battons are built to perform. When it comes to dealing with condensation and ventilation, high flow battons will help you create continuous ventilated cavities behind all your cladding and underneath your roof sheeting. They reduce condensation risk and support healthier, longer lasting buildings. Highwood timber battons are also in alignment with the proposed NCC condensation management requirements as well as passive house ventilation requirements. Being an engineered LVL product, they are stronger, straighter, and more dimensionally stable than a solid

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SPEAKER_00 25:07

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SPEAKER_01 25:50

Well, I feel I feel real empathy for these kids now. Um look, I was I was raised by a single mum and I was I copped some lucky breaks at college for year 11 and 12. Boarding school stabilized my life, two years in that. Um, working on good properties, good male mentors around me, getting into the military, doing time in Africa, like all those things were good for me to be able to learn how to be stable and create stable environments, which ultimately led to great business outcomes. But if I hadn't had that, what options would there have been? And a lot of these kids now, I mean, I'd look back at the all the apprentices that we've had over the years, most of them have been raised in don't no offense, ladies, but single mum households, really poor male role models around them. You know, a lot of these kids now, and this is a really big one for me, is the struggle it takes to get a driver's license and to keep a vehicle on the road. You've got a pea plate on, you're mostly targeted by the cops. The amount of apprentices I've lost because they've lost their licenses.

SPEAKER_00 26:46

Yeah, we've we've had a lot of them too.

SPEAKER_01 26:47

You know, um, and then I've I've had, you know, um a young fella from India that came to work for me as an estimator in the office, was driving around on his Indian license for five years that he bribed a copper in Mumbai five bucks for. You know, great story, awesome, mate. But you're competing for a job against an Aussie kid that can't get a license until he gets 100 hours up and then failed the test twice at Queensland Transport and

Apprentices, Licences, And Lost Work Ethic

SPEAKER_01 27:13

had to wait three more months to do the retest. You know, so what advantages are we giving our kids to get them started in the first place? I I'm I'm really disappointed that what the government wants to do is push all these kids through to year 12 and then get them to choose a trade or university. I really do believe that these kids should be choice making choices at 15 and we should be getting them into licenses earlier.

SPEAKER_00 27:33

Yeah, and what's your thoughts on um like I I think all kids need to spend some time in the bush. 100%. Like it needs to be part of schooling. Like there's a couple of schools um we know locally, some friends' kids and that go there, and uh either the start of the year, like they'll do a six or eight-week block where they get taken out to properties and they they have to live their own life away from phones, TVs, parents. Um I only two weeks ago, um like I got two, I got we got a few apprentices at the moment, but two of them have done really well in the last sort of six to eight months, ten months. And so I um said to them, I'm doing a boys trip up my farm. You guys come along, you're with me, you're in my truck. And we had an incredible weekend. Like got up there, um, I took one of my trainers with me. He picked up a full lamb on the way, like we cooked a lamb on an open fire, we shot rabbits, we made rabbit stew, like we went fishing, we caught crabs, we cooked everything on the fire. Like, yeah, um mate, they haven't stopped raving about it, and that was two weeks ago. But and and one of one of them had done a little bit of camping and stuff, but sort of not the hunting and cooking on fire and stuff. And even just the change I've seen in them on site, um, with the way they're interacting with myself, the rest of the team has been huge, and that was just from one weekend, three days. Yeah, I feel like you're getting them out in that environment. Um and I know people probably might disagree with me on this, but I think we we've lost a lot of our natural instincts, and those natural instincts that we're losing are what make us harder workers, make us uh be able to have conversations with each other, like get away from the phones and the gadgets and the get out of your own head. Get out of your own head, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 29:16

100%. Yeah, I know you're big on this as well as the self-care and looking after yourself and your personal development. I mean, we I don't think we do enough to empower these young guys, and doing that kind of thing is absolutely crucial. We took all of our team to Bali this year for four days, you know, and we did a work conference over there. We had the apprentices presenting to everyone in the room about what they do on site, what does their day look like, and vice versa, so that everyone in our business was able to communicate with each other and understand what everybody's role was because quite often the office guys don't see what happens on site and you know the other way around. And then there's that animosity that builds between them. You've seen that between sales and builders before. We've all all experienced well, mate.

SPEAKER_00 29:56

The site team has got no idea what the they just think everyone sits in the office and buddies sits in the air conditioner all day. The guys in the office don't know what they do inside all day. Like, yeah, yeah, it's funny, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 30:06

I think uh you know, doing that team building stuff is crucial. But even then, you know, we we we we try to do as much of it as we can. There's only so much you can afford to, you know, and and when you do something like that, you go, okay, well, we're gonna kiss a couple of hundred grand away in sales this month. That's what's gonna happen out of this because there's always a momentum loss, you know, a stop and a start. And if you take anyone overseas these days, mate, they all come back sick. So we lost another week after that, and that was the price we paid for it. But we had the ability for people to have a few drinks together, get their shit out. If they've got a problem with you, you got a problem with me, talk it out, and then and then come back as a stronger team. And also it gave the young guys buy-in.

SPEAKER_00 30:42

Yeah, I'm sure there's been a lot of flow on like you might have lost that little bit of period, but and it might have been slow for a little bit, but I'm sure it it ramped up after that.

SPEAKER_01 30:50

Well, you found out who the piss ads were. But yeah, I I you know, I'm I I really I really think the only way to solve our problems as a country is to fall back into our culture. I'm big on the culture thing, and to empower our people to learn how to build again, to learn how to be practical men, practical women.

SPEAKER_00 31:09

So, what what do you think what what's that look like?

SPEAKER_01 31:11

Yeah, get a trade, learn how to do something. Look, we we my business is diversified in that. We have the building company where we install, you know, home improvement products, decks, patios, and carports. That's really the backbone. And that gives us a grounding in in the reality of how to do things with your hands. But we sell our online products, our smart kits, which is our e-commerce business, selling those products as a prefabricated option for people to install themselves. And so, from a builder's perspective, what would we want if we were you? And so empowering people to build their own deck, to get an owner builder's permit, to understand how to read a set of engineering drawings and to have a crack at building that themselves. And we do thousands of those every single year. That's really the big business for us now. And I love it because we're helping people learn how to do things. And and I don't know about you, mate, but my first house was an asbestos bucket of shit.

SPEAKER_00 32:03

My first few houses were that.

SPEAKER_01 32:04

Yeah. And and learning how to renovate you know, those houses was one of the key parts of becoming a great tradesman for me as well, you know. And later in my life, when I got my carpentry qualification, a lot of that was second nature because of the stuff I'd already done as a younger guy, anyway.

SPEAKER_00 32:19

You know, why do you think there is a big push to try and keep people at university?

SPEAKER_01 32:24

Because they turn into labor voters. You know, I mean, I'm absolutely unforgiving when I say that. I've it's the truth. You go to university, you're more likely to lean left in

Practical Fixes For Affordable Housing

SPEAKER_01 32:34

your voting intentions.

SPEAKER_02 32:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 32:35

And a lot of the mass immigration problem that we have in Australia right now is about building voting blocks to entrench a left-leaning government into this country forever.

SPEAKER_02 32:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 32:43

That's what they've done. And that's why someone like Tony Burke is more than happy to placate, you know, the problems that we're having with some of the multicultural stuff here, because 25 to 30% of his electorate are Islamic. You know, I'm not saying I've got anything again against the Islamic people or the Jewish people or wherever you come from. But the social contract that we have in Australia is you come here and you be Australian. You know, you embrace what it is to be us, which means that I'm afraid you're gonna have to leave your genocidal blood cult behind you and become an Australian because you know what we're like, you know, if there's something wrong, we'll say it. And we're quite forthright, we're courageous, we're determined people. And uh, you know, we do have tall poppy syndrome, which I kind of like about us because it keeps us on a level playing field in a lot of ways. But it means that we're uh a people that can overcome adversity, and we've lost a lot of that, mate.

SPEAKER_00 33:32

Yeah, you know. I I do agree. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 33:34

And so when you look at our building industry, and this ties into that, you know, and this is why kind of why my content has got some traction online, is we're in an industry that lost 7,000 licensed builders in the last two years. And now we're in the middle of a housing crisis, we've got infrastructure problems. You touched on the Olympics before. I'm looking at it going, mate, we've got a cross river rail that's four years over time and five billion bucks over budget. And you're telling me that we're gonna build an Olympics here.

SPEAKER_00 33:59

Yeah, mate. I don't even know. Like, how can that happen?

SPEAKER_01 34:01

How can that happen? Because you know, you're the builder, I'm the builder. I go to my client and say, Look, I'm afraid there's a hundred percent cost blowout on this project. You're gonna tell me to go stuff myself, mate.

SPEAKER_00 34:12

Wasn't the original cost on that like 2.2 billion or something?

SPEAKER_01 34:15

I think it was 3.9, and the forecast now is 10 plus the ads, mate. So there's more to come.

SPEAKER_00 34:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 34:21

Holy shit. Yeah. For four train stations.

SPEAKER_00 34:25

Yeah, it's freaking unbelievable.

SPEAKER_01 34:26

I'm sure it'll be amazing when it's completed.

SPEAKER_00 34:28

But like like, well, it's like the bloody weather, weather, bloody website, mate, that's been in the news lately. But but that's because your government doesn't care about your money. Like, you know, that's what I was gonna get to. Like, how there is no like someone is not watching things correctly because there there is physically no way that that cross river rail can cost 10 billion dollars. Well, there is a way.

SPEAKER_01 34:50

I mean, you know, it's it's the kind of project that just eats money and it goes into a lot of different places that aren't about actually pouring concrete.

SPEAKER_00 35:00

That's what I mean. But the actual but the pro the product itself is there's no way in the world it can cost that much.

SPEAKER_01 35:06

There's probably 1.5 billion in product, yeah, but there's another 8.5 in Department of Blue Hairs, mate, somewhere behind the scenes. I call it the Department of Blue Hairs because it is. Yeah, you know, it's not productive. Look, and this is a really big thing. Uh we had a productivity roundtable in August in Australia. I'm not sure if you're familiar with that. Jim Chalmers and uh, you know, the the Australian treasurer and a whole bunch of government departments and bureaucrats and looking at all the different sectors in our economy and why is productivity in our economy decreasing? It's plummeting at the moment. And so all these things started to come out of it. And they they spoke about the National Construction Code. And uh the question was asked: well, what assessments were made on the N double C rollout uh for productivity? And the bureaucrats sat there stunned and went, none. So, okay, so we're gonna layer in these new rules and compliances and and requirements, but no consideration was made to how that's gonna deliver a more productive or faster or better outcome for a house. No. That says it all. And and what that says to me is you've got a government in there and an entrenched bureaucratic swamp that doesn't care about your money and it doesn't care about outcomes, mate.

SPEAKER_00 36:15

Oh, and again, like we touched on before, they have no understanding of how it actually works.

SPEAKER_01 36:20

Yeah, but they um you nailed that, you're right, 100%, because they've never done it. They've never done it.

SPEAKER_00 36:25

But mate, I I was at a uh master builder thing, like I've I've stopped going to them now, but the last couple I went to, um I got in a bit of trouble because I went to one and it was about the NCC changes, and the bloke got up on stage and he was talking about these livability um changes and how they've done all these studies and they saw that if it's um if it's added in during planning stage, it's not gonna add any cost. And like I I stood up and said, like, I'm not sure if you're um what you're what you're if you're aware of what's involved, mate, because like there's more product, there's more like the there's custom made materials because like we only have standard, like I I didn't really go on and on, but I just gave him a few basics and I I said we've sort of like myself and my our designers and that have worked out that even at if we add it on a design stage, it's still gonna add a minimum of ten to twenty thousand dollars to every job we build.

SPEAKER_01 37:20

Minimum.

SPEAKER_00 37:21

And um this guy's like, Oh well, Dwayne, you know, like I'm our our our facts don't sort of agree with that, and we've done our studies and blah blah blah. And um it was just like I I come out and I did a story on my social media, and the next day someone, one of my followers shared it with someone else who shared it to Master Builders, and next thing I'm getting a call from them and I'm getting in the shit, and I'm like, Well, I'm just saying what I what how it is. Yep, like that's the actual deal. Like, you cannot make these changes and not expect it to add more money to the job. Yeah, and in the next, like the next part of that presentation was about reducing the cost of building because the cost of building is getting ridiculous. So there's just like the people that are in these roles and these departments have no real world experience.

SPEAKER_01 38:09

Now, that's because you've got 10 or 20 departments, you know, at different points in the whole deliverable delivery of that building project that are all adding on 1%, 1%, 1%, 1%, 1%, 1% in lost productivity and cost. And suddenly, you know, your project's 40% up, 50% up. They wonder why inflation's running hot in the industry, and they're wondering, wondering why builders are going broke. Yeah, that that's it. You know, um, because we've made it so bloody difficult to do anything. And you've got customers out there that are getting fleeced, they don't know how much money this government is taking at three levels local, state, and federal, for that home, for that house. It's criminal, mate, if these people really understood.

SPEAKER_00 38:48

Well, mate, look at the land. Like, I'm I'm not sure on the exact stats, but it's something around 42 to 48 percent of the cost of a block of land is going back to councils and governments. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 38:59

Like how ridiculous. And they're broke. Yeah. And they're broke, mate. That's the part that really grinds my gears. They're such awful managers of money that they're broke mostly, in debt, and still taxing you at that level in the middle of a housing crisis.

SPEAKER_00 39:14

Yeah, what's um mate? What do you think we can be doing to solve these housing problems? Like, get well, actually, before we get onto that, I just want to finish off on the uh the labour thing. So, how can we encourage more young people to take on a trade?

SPEAKER_01 39:29

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 39:30

People get up like quite frustrated when I say this because I I say quite openly that I don't think people should finish school. School's school has the education system suits some people and it definitely doesn't suit others. And if it doesn't suit you, I think you need to get out of there.

SPEAKER_01 39:44

Mate, I was done at 15. I you know, I was one of those kids that should have gone to a trade, but I went to an agricultural school where you learned how to farm and did study at the same time. So it was kind of the same thing for me. But it, you know, and if I was a kid now, I would have been diagnosed with ADD or ADHD or something like that, and probably would you know jump, jumped in, or they would have thrown Ritland down my throat to calm me down. And this is the thing. We've got a generation of young boys now that are being medicated off their eyeballs to try and get them to sit in class to finish year 12. Well, this is a really simple solution for me, Duane. We get these kids into trades earlier. We start talking about those pathways in year year eight, year nine. And mate, are you ready to go? What trade do you want? How do we get you into these pre-apprenticeships earlier and start doing that way and going down that path and then get them into licenses at the same time? This is this is key. The license is key because your apprentices need to drive.

SPEAKER_00 40:32

100%.

SPEAKER_01 40:33

My apprentices need to drive. You know, most apprentices need to be able to drive. It's as simple as that. Oh, we don't want to you know put 15-year-olds on the road in a car. Well, if the 15-year-old's proved himself to be proficient, you've seen the height of these 15-year-old kids these days. You know, these kids are uh are living in a in a good paddock, mate. They're well fed. Um and and so why not teach them how to drive in year eight and year nine and have them ready to go into trades in year 10 and year 11? You know, why not? Get this thing happening earlier, you know, and I'm oh, we want the kids to have a childhood. Well, they're not on social media anymore, are they? So why don't we get them into the workforce, mate? So I think this starts with uh and a better informed decision at a younger age and earlier intervention in education for these guys, mate. That's the big thing.

SPEAKER_00 41:18

Yeah, I couldn't agree more. Um, so yeah, moving on, like how do we make housing more affordable?

SPEAKER_01 41:24

Well, this is one that you would know well, and I know you've talked about it plenty of times. Is you know, what we've got to do is cut back on on the time that it takes to get a to deliver land, cut back on the amount of money that the governments are taking on that, um, and uh and then lower the not the barrier to entry for builders, but the barrier to constant compliance for us. I not all builders are the same. I'm I'm I'm really stuck on this one because after being in business for as long as I have and you for as long as you have, why should I have to meet the constant requirements for a builder that's in his first five years? You know, I've already got the runs on the board, I don't have any defects on my license, I've got done everything correctly, done, paid all the bills, I've never ripped anyone off. Should I be penalized with the same barriers all the time that everyone else is? So, in my opinion, take proven trusted brands or true proven trusted builders and make it simpler for us to deliver. And I think that would make a big difference as well. And then also manage the expectations because great, you want to have a double-glazed windowed house, awesome, but you've just added 30 grand to the delivery, delivery cost on the home. Is that affordable for everybody? And why do these windows have to come from China? Like, why is it you're big on the healthy home stuff that a lot of this stuff for compliance comes from another country? That's insane, mate.

SPEAKER_00 42:39

Well, uh, where we still don't, like, I don't agree with that at all. No, we've got a client at the moment that's uh wants a very high spec healthy home and wants to import windows from China. I'm like, what that's why? Why the um and we've done the numbers on it now, they're they're probably gonna save six thousand dollars.

SPEAKER_01 42:57

It's because it's coming from China, yeah, compared to the Australian made stuff. Yep. And so when we talk about the Australian made stuff, right? I had this um, you know, conversation the other day with a left-leaning voter guy. Um, oh, you know, we need to get manufacturing back into Australia. Okay, great. You want to build a factory to manufacture, let's say Windows, for example, try getting the permit approved for the factory to build it in the first place. Well, it shouldn't be that hard. No, mate, it is that hard. You know, you want to clear the site, you want to put a you know, 400 square meter concrete slab down, you want to put a shed on it, you want to put an office on there, then you're gonna bring staff in, and they've got all this HR and compliance stuff attached to them as well. We've never made it harder to employ people, harder to get a permit to build anything, or harder to manufacture. Everything has high costs associated with it. We used to make cars here, and I know you're big on the cars, right? You know, we built great Australian cars here. Oh, why can't we build cars in Australia? Well, what happened was in 2015 we signed a free trade agreement with China. And in return for that free trade with China for us to buy their stuff, we sold them resources. Well, now. The Chinese are buying their coal from Indonesia and their nickel from Indonesia and their iron ore from Africa. So is that free trade agreement still a good deal for Australia? Probably not. Probably not. Why aren't we reviewing some of this stuff? Oh, it's complicated, it's complex, it's tricky. Well, in the world that I come from, you can simplify things really, you know, quite easily. Is it good for you and is it good for me? Because if the deal's not a two-way street, I'm tearing that deal up and we're going to renegotiate this thing.

SPEAKER_00 44:27

Well, in in real world, that's what happens. That's exactly what it is. Not in the government um world. They seem to be able to do what they please and not have to answer to anybody.

SPEAKER_01 44:36

Oh, but you'll upset our global international trading partners if you rock the boat. Yeah, I don't care about that. I care about Australia. Is this good for Australia? Is this deal good for Australia? It's not working for us.

SPEAKER_02 44:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 44:48

So uh yeah, clearly there's something very wrong here. Mate, I'm heartbroken. You drive past pretty much any bridge, uh, you know, Sunshine Coast or Gold Coast, and you'll see homeless people living in cars and tents. It never used to be like that, Dwayne.

SPEAKER_00 45:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 45:00

What the hell happened, mate?

SPEAKER_00 45:02

I mate, I I agree. The um and I guess it's well, this is why it's good having conversations with people like yourself, because you're like, you know, there's bits and pieces of it, but just listening to what you're talking about, like if you add up all the red tape in buying the property, and then the red tape in building the property, and then the red tape in the HR, and then the red tape in this all the safety to be able to employ those people and to load the trucks on site, like it's that's the answer. Yeah. Like you take out a lot of like you simplify, you know, you don't have to get rid of it. Like we don't want unsafe workplaces, and uh, but if you simplify that, it's gonna save a shitload of money.

SPEAKER_01 45:42

What's the level that we're prepared to accept? I mean, I know people get very passionate about this and for good reason, you know. Um, you you've seen accidents, I've seen accidents, we've had close calls, you know, and I don't want anyone to get hurt on site. But if I'm gonna make this place 100% perfectly safe, you're not gonna be able to afford what I have to charge for that. There is risk, there's always risk. That's how the real world works. Well, not only that's a manageable amount.

SPEAKER_00 46:07

Not only that, I believe I've seen more accidents. The safer it gets, I've seen more ac like I didn't

Safety, Productivity, And Scaling Limits

SPEAKER_00 46:13

through my whole apprenticeship, mate. Like you would be the same. Like we walked on three-story top plates, we didn't have scaffolding around, we we put roofs on with no guardrail. Like it was and you knew you had to be you had to be aware of what was around you, you had to know what was going on, you had to be safe. Yep. And now people just expect there to always be a guardrail or a full provision or or a marks on like it's just crazy.

SPEAKER_01 46:39

Yep. And all of that is adding another point, another two points, another three points to the cost of the project. And so it starts to get we've reached the point where the tip it's tipped over into the unmanageable, crazy level now. And there's got to be a rebalancing of that or a recalibration. And when we look at 7,000 builders that went broken the last couple of years, look, we know that builders generally by nature aren't great businessmen, which is why I really like what you do to help builders become better businessmen. Um, and there's no amount of training that you can really give someone at university or in further education to be a good businessman because most of these kids come out of these university degrees with like their heads up their asses and no idea, you know. And then you've got to re-educate them on how the real world works in business. So, you know, can you create better outcomes by creating better um business knowledge? Yeah, definitely. But a lot of that comes with time in the industry as well, you know, and that's how you know we we've kind of developed to where we are. I, you know, we we tried franchising our building company, right? And we've had we had some success with it, but we had a lot of a lot of problems with it too, purely because we couldn't keep up with the legals. And so I I look at um you know Jim's mowing, for example. Jim could not do today what he did back then. You cannot create a franchise empire like that in Australia with all the legals attached to it now. And so what we found in the franchising model was we were spending more money on legals to keep the franchising business operational than the profits we were making out of having three or four franchisees up and running, mate. Unbelievable. There was no money in it, there was nothing in it, and it was all going to the lawyers, all of it, every dollar.

SPEAKER_00 48:10

It's unbelievable, isn't it? Like it's just and look, it makes you sort of understand why the general sort of Aussie Battler doesn't want the stress of having a business.

SPEAKER_01 48:20

Well, it's why builders generally don't scale out as well. You know, builders get into a space where there's a comfortable number to manage, and we've all tested that number because you've never been busier, you've never made less money. And so you go, oh, you know, I don't need to do that many jobs, let's cut that back, let's increase the margins, let's look at the bottom line here, you know, be tighter on that. Because just bringing revenue through the door will send you broke if that's all you're focused on. Um, so yeah, you know, you these are things that you need to watch constantly in order to survive in this industry.

SPEAKER_00 48:48

Yeah, 100%. Um mate, something else we'll I want to talk about is um look you're very confident in the way you speak. Um, and so my my audience, um, my mission is to create a new building industry, and I um it ties in with what we're talking about. Like, I I personally believe that people need to attract clients but and make it more personal. When you attract clients for a personal reason, it becomes you get treated like more like a professional. They come to you because of what you're gonna they want you to deliver. It's not so much based on price. Um, we were talking a little bit before we started recording um about how you put yourself out there and like you're always moving while you're doing it. I think that's that conversation will help a lot of our listeners because the amount of people that reach out to me and say, I'd I just can't do it. Like, I'd I'd I don't know how you put yourself out there all the time. It wasn't easy when I started. I'm sure it wasn't easy when you started either.

SPEAKER_01 49:42

No, and I I I I did read a good book uh by a fellow called Jason Priestley that I mentioned before called Key Person of Key Key Person of Influence. Not a big book. Jump online, search it up, you'll find it. I think you can even download it for free. That's how confident he is in getting you on board with his stuff, right? But you know, he he writes in there your first hundred videos are gonna be shit. You're gonna look like a turkey, people are gonna give you a hard time. You're gonna see a negative comment there about something you're doing, and that's gonna break your heart and you get all introspective and you're, oh geez, maybe I am shit, you

Building A Personal Brand That Works

SPEAKER_01 50:13

know. But you've got to find a way to rise above that. And, you know, I think I told you before, I was talking to another tradie that I know, and he said to me 35 years ago when he did his apprenticeship, he didn't imagine he'd have to do TikTok dances to get to get to get leads. Well, I don't think you need to dance on TikTok. But what the the point being is that none of us expected that we were gonna have to create personal brands. But if you look back on it, the big names that you know in the industry all had a personal brand that came out of somewhere. And what happens is that if you can overcome, don't read the comments, just post it and ghost it. If you're feeling courageous, have a bit of a read. But otherwise, let it and just make your content, put it out there. Talk about something you know, something you're comfortable with. For me, talking about the building industry when I'm, you know, in my gym at the when I'm training or on my treadmill is comfortable for me. It wasn't that I went, oh, let's set up a treadmill and do it this way. It was like, I'm walking, I can talk, and I'm good at that. And so that was really what how it how it emerged was just finding my groove of what I was comfortable to do. Some people are happy to sit, some people are happy to talk and walk, some people sit in a car, some people are holding a brick, whatever it takes. What makes you feel comfortable and embrace it? Make a hundred videos. I I saw a really good interview with I can't remember the actor, I think it was the actor that played Elvis in that um that Basil Erman film.

SPEAKER_00 51:31

But he was talking about off the top of his head.

SPEAKER_01 51:33

Yeah, he was in Masters of the Air as well. But um, good actor, and he was talking about how he learned to embrace his cringe, right? And so and I thought about it, and he was right because what he did was he went, I'm gonna dance on this dance floor with nobody there, and I'm gonna be as cringy as hell, and I'm gonna embrace what it feels like to be cringy and explore that space and understand how that sits inside of me. And it was like, Yeah, dude, that's that's a hundred percent the secret to success. Because he embraced his cringe and then he went on to become a really famous actor because he was comfortable enough to go, I'm okay being awkward, you know. And that I think that's what comes to but that's him, yeah, yeah. Embrace the cringe, mate.

SPEAKER_00 52:17

But you were um you talked before how you've got to be moving, like you like to be moving when you're recording and doing your content and stuff. Like I find that um I'm similar. Like I've I can only do content in certain situations or or spots, and a lot of the time that's uh either walking or driving um in my truck. So why do you think it is that movement is allows you to be more comfortable to do that content?

SPEAKER_01 52:43

Well, for me, it's blood flow. Um, you know, and I can even sitting here now, I can see you moving. You always moving, yeah, twitching. And a lot of builders I know are like that because most of us have got buggered backs or knees or hips or something as well. But for me, it's blood flow and circulation. And I was always, I all I I have trained my whole life pretty much, you know, in between drinking a heck of a lot when I was younger, I would have always hit the gym. And so for me, I've got a great shed at home, like you've got here, built a gym down there. I would go down there and train every morning at 4 or 5 a.m. anyway. Non-negotiable, absolutely has to happen. And so I'm also a Christian. I go down there, I train, I pray, get my vibe on for the day, have my best business ideas, and I'm on the treadmill writing notes or you know, speaking into the into the the phone to try and take notes for ideas that I'm having. And I went, oh, this fits. I know this this works. And I just found my spot doing that, and that's that's kind of why it happened. Yeah, but I like the movement, I like physical things, being physically connected to my brain and then spiritually connected to my God keeps me on track, mate. And it's having all three of those points dotted, you know.

SPEAKER_00 53:43

So love it, mate. I love it. That's um it's important, isn't it, that everyone finds their own thing. It doesn't matter what they're doing, whether it's business, social media, putting themselves out there, like you just do what comes to and works for you. Yeah, like don't try and follow other people. And again, that's I I appreciate you sharing your story, mate, because we're uh we're all different. Everyone uh does things differently. So um, mate, some other things I wanted to um talk about, um like with the Olympics coming up in Brisbane here, like there is no way in the world, like I I can't physically see how we're gonna build what they want to build. Um there's a lot of talk about they're going to import workers and stuff. Like, what do you feel about this?

SPEAKER_01 54:28

Yeah, the imported workers thing scares me, mate. Because I, you know, like bring it back to the numbers again. Three in one thousand migrants in the last two years had any construction skills. Talking about bringing skilled workers in, who are they? What are they? So three out of a thousand actually have the skills had any construction skills whatsoever. Yeah. You know, on the last round of uh, you know, visas that we're accepting for Australia was auctioneers to help deal with the the red hot property market that we've got. So if you had experience in the subcontinent as an auctioneer, you're on the approved visa list for Australia. Is that a skill that we really need? You know, yoga instructors, is that a skill that we really need? You know, is that is that is that where it's at? I um I got in a bit of trouble a while ago for a Yahoo Finance interview that I did where it was um, you know, I made this off-handed comment, not realizing that Yahoo was going to quote me on this. Um, well, if we can bring in all these kids to go to university

Olympics Pressure And Skilled Migration Myths

SPEAKER_01 55:27

from overseas, why can't I employ an Indian kid as an apprentice? Boy, you know, everyone lost their shit. You just want to bring in more migrants and do all the rest of that. You know, you don't you don't like Aussie kids. And it was actually, I was what I was trying to do is point out the absurdity of the of the university sector in Australia. So have I had a good experience with imported trades? Not since the 90s. And I use this example when the uh the the the um Bosnian War was on in the late 90s, and you you probably remember this as well. We had a lot of Serbian Croatian tradesmen come over from that part of Europe. We Australia let a bunch of them in. And I was um doing concrete on sites over in WA and building sheds then, mate. Suddenly we had all these Croatian carpenters and concretors, and mate, they were great tradesmen.

SPEAKER_00 56:15

We did like plasterers, carpenters, bricklayers.

SPEAKER_01 56:18

Yep, and they they they built to a standard that we understood, they were compatible with our culture, they fitted in really well, they left their shit behind them. You know, I had I was working with guys that were literally come from opposing sides of the armies over there, but on site, mate, they were they were all fine. That was shit over there. They all just wanted to bring their families here and get away from it. And that's not the type of tradesman that we're bringing in anymore. That's not what we're getting. We're not getting the best the world has to offer. And so, are we gonna bring in the skills that we need? No, we're not, mate. And we're gonna get to that point in 2031 and we're gonna be sitting here going, holy shit. And so, at what point do we do what Melbourne did and go, yeah, we're gonna scratch this thing and not do it? You know, is that what we're gonna become as Australians? Like people who back out on our agreements to do stuff like that, mate.

SPEAKER_00 57:08

If they don't start breaking ground soon like that, well, they're gonna run out of time. But yeah, I it I I am super keen to see what they do about it because I just don't see how they can do it.

SPEAKER_01 57:18

No, don't see how they're gonna do it in the middle of a housing crisis with builders going bus left, right, and center, these infrastructure big, you know, big projects that we've got lined up, where's the money coming from? We're broke already, we're you know, in tons of debt. How is it? How is any of it going to shake out? I don't see it. I think it's I think it's it's uh it's a fool's errand, mate. You know, it's nuts.

SPEAKER_00 57:38

And is it at the end of the day, like is it is it worth it to host Olympics? Like Olympics are great. Uh it's awesome that people put so much effort in and they aspire to go to the Olympics and win win medals for their countries and those types of things, but yeah, I just don't know if it's worth the stress and the the issues it's gonna put on Southeast Queensland.

SPEAKER_01 57:58

I was in Jabai three months ago, yeah, and I I got to check out to the Jabai airport, right? And I flew back into Brisbane and went, wow, yeah, we're screwed. You know, the three planes turned up in Brisbane at the same time. You know, it took an hour to get through customs, so then get your bags, and you know, it was it was nuts, absolutely nuts. And this Brisbane is not equipped for what's about to unfold here. You want to make Brisbane the highlight of this, you know, the world, and everyone's gonna be coming to looking at Southeast Queensland. We've already got a massively overheated housing market, we've already got a cost of living crisis. I don't see how we get through this, mate, without actually causing more cultural damage to ourselves.

SPEAKER_00 58:37

Yeah, I agree, absolutely agree. Um, but you've got a lot of experience across the board in lots of different things. Um, a lot of people that listen to podcasts, uh younger people, uh sort of not sure which direction they're gonna go. How do they start a business or they might be in business, they're struggling. What's some advice or some tips you can give for people like you've had a you've started a business multiple times, you've been very successful. Um, what's advice to those people that are just wanting to have a crack and turn things around and sort of have something to aim for?

SPEAKER_01 59:08

I think not being stationary um and being infinitely curious, and and that was a really big, big thing for me. A lot of the business ventures that I've gone into, uh, you know, the building company was what we started at, but you know, we created four more businesses out of that that were offshoots of that. And because I was curious about what those markets were or what the possibilities were. I was curious to create social media content. I was curious to create e-commerce websites, I was curious on how to get a customer to look at your stuff and go, I want to buy that, you know, and then to provide that, and then to, you know, to work out the logistics issues and all the rest of it, and then provide solutions on how to build it. I was curious. And if you're infinitely curious, doesn't mean that you're a great manager of money because my wife will slap me over the head every time I get another idea. Settle down, mate. You know, there's only so much you can handle. But, you know, to be always wanting to be better at what we do. And I I'm driven in the way that

Diversification, Selling A Business, And Wealth

SPEAKER_01 1:00:06

I don't think anything is good enough. You know, when you you know do a building project, I walk around what we do and I go, yeah, we could have done that better. Still now, even with stuff that we're really, really good at, there's always something we could could have been better at. So not happy where you're at, always wanting to do more and to be better at it, and to be really curious about trying things that you're not sure about. A lot of people said to me, as a builder, you're not going to be able to diversify your business model. But we created four other businesses out of that, you know.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:33

So yeah, what are those businesses?

SPEAKER_01 1:00:36

Well, we started an online steel business where we sell stick-length steel. We started Smart Kids Australia, where we sell prefabricated home improvement deck patios and carports for clients to build themselves. We started Easy Block Sheds where we sell prefabricated sheds, and we started uh a business uh called Approval Masters, where we help aggregate building approvals through a separate entity that isn't ours. And so all of those things could have been under the one brand, and they're under the group of companies, but they're all offshoots.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:06

And the reason we did it that way is because every one of those has a deliverable metric that you can measure for improvement now as a standalone entity. Is this business profitable? You can have a product line that you you sell under your brand, but are you really tracking how well that product line is doing to the extent where it's a standalone business? And so in my mind, that was always the best way to do things. But once you've got all this group of companies, suddenly you're like, well, it's really hard to employ everyone across all these businesses. So you create another entity that becomes an employment entity for all of your people. And so this idea, when I look at when the accountant hands me the map and says this is the structure, I sit there and shake my head and go, holy shit, that's complicated, you know, because you got trusts and you've got companies and you've got all these things happening. But it grows over time and it takes time to build that up. And I think as a business, a lot of builders can't sell what they are, they can't sell their business. And I know that you you get this. You want to be able to get to a point where you're going to retire and go, I want to sell what I've built. This is a good brand. It has operations systems in place that delivers great outcomes for customers. How do I sell this and get myself a payday? And so I looked at it and went, okay, well, what do we got to have here, here, and here and here to go? This is a vertically integrated, diversified business that is attractive for someone to buy one day. And that was always my desire.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:26

Mate, I'm absolutely stoked that you went there. I didn't think that would be something we'd be talking about today, but that is something I'm so passionate about. Because especially in the building industry, like when you do see people that do well, push hard, get the business, flog their ass their entire life, and eventually get to a point where they're ready to slow down or retire or whatever. And yes, they might have got an investment property and paid some things off and they're comfortable, but they literally have to shut down what they've worked their whole life for and walk away with nothing. Not a cent. And no, no one no one gets to the benefits of what they've built over their entire career. And I think that's really sad. And I and I and I actually think it's a sh another big reason why we can't build the amount of house we need to build and we lose a lot of trades. Um I'm massive on that, mate. With my live life build business, like I preach to our members all the time, like by you diving into your numbers, understanding your overheads, understanding the roles in your business, having roles and tasks for everybody in the business, making sure that everyone's doing the jobs that they're efficient at and they enjoy doing, and uh, you as a director and the owner for the business getting paid for the role you play, and then your company making profit on top of all that, once it's paid all those costs and covered all its on-site costs, you actually have something that you can get a valuer to put a value on and you can take to market.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:50

And I think the the exciting part for me is imagine how many people work in those businesses already that have probably could have been there for five years, ten years, twenty years that might go, shit, I might step up, I might buy it. Like can you imagine if every building in building every business in the building industry had that goal to work towards that so that whether it was some an outsider or someone, I think I think it's more important to um school your your team to find out who has the passion to maybe take your business over. So that number one, you get a bit of a payday, you can be proud that you've built something that you're gonna get a reward for. And number two, someone else doesn't have to go through all the hardache of starting a business and getting things going. Like that all they need to do is improve on what you've already built.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:41

Yeah. Well, we we created a skewered market in Australia because entrepreneurship used to be something that we're really good at, and we're not great at that anymore. Unlike America, and I'll use the Americans as an example, a big chunk of uh bank lending in the US is to businesses. They will lend to businesses to grow their businesses or to buy you know business opportunities. In Australia, we just lend for houses. Yeah, you know, it's really hard as a business. I've borrowed money as in my business before to do growth and scale. And um, it's hard. You've got to jump through hoops like crazy. Getting a home loan, mate, easy. I can go and walk in the bank tomorrow, they'll give me money for a house, no problem at all. Yeah, but try to borrow half a million bucks for a business expansion. Good luck, mate. Yeah, good luck, you know, and check out the interest rate we're gonna offer you as well. What, 10, 11, 12 if you're lucky? Even, you know, I've seen guys in business borrow at you know 21% just to bridge finance before. So do we encourage businesses to want to grow in Australia? Not really. And I I had this thought the other week, and I did make some content about it. In 2009, when I started the company, if I'd just gone and bought five shit houses, I'd probably have more money now instead of growing, you know, trying to be in business. And it would have been a heck of a lot easier. You know yourself, a lot of builders will buy run down houses and renovate and you know, kind of do that flipping thing as they go through, and they make the money out of the houses, not out of the business. But I believe that you should be able to make money out of both. 100%. Yeah. And you know this, and I know you've spoken about it before. Don't do free quotes. You know, don't be in a race to the bottom. This is how you go broke. We haven't done a free quote for years. People go, oh, you're gonna you're gonna charge people for a quote for a deck. Yeah. Yeah, because if you want to talk to one of my builders, mate, you're gonna pay for the privilege. I'm not sending a salesman around, I'm sending someone who knows what they're talking about. Yeah, and you're gonna pay for knowledge.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:26

Yep. Even um, well, yeah, again, with the finance side of thing, there is so many, uh, so much room to grow this industry and create wealth for people, mate. Like, I've wealth, like people get scared, I think, of the of wealth and talking about wealth, and um, like you said, you touched on before, the tall poppy syndrome and those types of things. Like if you get to that position where you're uh you've got a business that's systemized, got processes, you understand all your costs, you put on the market, you can sell it, you can vendor finance it. 100%. And so then you're also you're not just making the money from the sale of the business, you're making money from the interest that you're gonna get paid.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:04

Like, yeah, you you you touched on a really good point there, the vendor finance part of it. Because even, you know, I know there's a lot of older people and even builders right in their 50s. With you know, you want to sell, you want to get out, um, finance someone into it, cover it, get it, get it, get an upfront payment, help them structure it, make sure your systems are right, and let them pay you for the next couple of years. You know, there's no reason not to do that. I'll be honest with you, that's actually how I got into my first house, was a vendor finance deal I I did with the uh the person who owned it. Yeah, and because I couldn't get a bank loan at the time, but you know, great. This this this older person helped me get into a home because I was prepared to ask as well, you know.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:44

Well, that's the thing, you've got to be prepared to ask, but I think I feel like a lot of it comes back for to our schooling. Like, we're not taught to think outside the box.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:52

Yeah, mate.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:53

Like it's just do this, get that, pay this off, get to here. Like, yeah, it's it's crazy.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:59

Yeah, and thinking outside the box can get amazing things done. But you do if you don't ask, you don't get.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:05

I actually I'm I I like these young kids and the fact that they're not afraid to ask in a lot of ways. You've probably seen that, you know, they're not afraid to ask you for something.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:12

They're not afraid to ask, but they they expect it like that.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:16

Like they don't understand time under tension, mate. They call it, you know. You got to be in the game for a while, too.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:23

Yeah, mate. Look, I think we've um probably sparked a few conversations from what we've talked about today, and I hope um, well, I'm sure people have got a lot out of it. Mate, I really appreciate your time. Before we get out of here, what's level up mean to you?

SPEAKER_01 1:08:37

Level up is being constantly on point, being as good as you possibly can be. I I, you know, one of the key things uh for my success was I gave up drinking a while ago as well, which mate, leveling up for me, when I quit the booze, my whole life took a it almost doubled in its trajectory and the ability and the and the energy that I had to do things. So if you're shortchanging yourself, stop it. Give it up. You know, I'm not saying you should, you know, everyone should give up drinking. It's not for everybody, but I'll be honest with you, mate. My whole life turned around when I quit the booze, eh? So level up, be be focused and be strong.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:10

Jeez, we can't wrap it up leaving that like that. Like, personal is a big thing. Like, what was the decision to do that?

SPEAKER_01 1:09:16

Bad hangover. I woke up one day and went, why am I doing this to myself? What the heck? You know, and and uh just made that decision and uh never looked back. That was the best thing I could have done. I you know, I have moments where I go, yeah, today'd be a good day for a drink, because we all have those days, but it passes in about four seconds and it's just it's just move on now. And uh where I used to come home on a Friday, mix of rum and lay in the pool and count my sorrows and whinge a bit. Now I'm like, let's do another quote, let's make another phone call, let's make a TikTok, let's make an Instagram video, let's talk about something you're passionate about. And the whole trajectory of the social media thing and the and becoming a cultural influencer

Level Up Mindset And Quitting The Booze

SPEAKER_01 1:09:54

directly tied in with Quentin Booze. Yeah. So weirdly enough, that whole thing kind of fitted together. Because you you really it's you you need to be authentic in what you're doing. And what I realized was is that I wasn't my authentic self because there were times in my life when I was hungover, when I was tired, and uh I wasn't at my best. And now I just want to be at my best every day.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:14

Mate, that is definitely where we want to wrap this podcast up. So um, mate, just before we get out of here, uh run through where people can find your businesses, Instagram.

SPEAKER_01 1:10:23

Yeah, so uh the QHI group, you'll find smart kids, easy blocks, you know, um, you know, QHI National, the building company, you know, we're we're there, you'll find us online. But if you search Shallow Chell, one word Shallow Chell or Shallow underscore chell on Instagram, you'll find me. And uh, I do tie a lot of the business stuff into you know my my social media content about the cultural thing because I am the brand and I am the business. I'm not afraid to be that. And uh I stand by I stand by it. We're Australian, Australian business, employing Australian people, trying to make Australia better.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:51

Awesome, mate. Thanks so much for uh taking the time out to come on, mate. It's been awesome. And and keep doing what you're doing on socials, mate. I think it's inspiring. So uh good on you. And it's awesome to talk to people that are passionate about what they do, but passionate about Australia and and uh our culture and those types of things. It's really what really, really good. Um, look, guys, for those of you that uh listen to this podcast regularly regularly, I hope you got a lot out of it today. Um, make sure you like, subscribe, share, all those things. Go to the DwaynePearce.com website to secure your level up merchandise so that you can help me continue to create a new building industry. Uh, look forward to seeing you on the next one. Cheers, guys.