Why Australian Tradies Are Getting Softer & What It's Costing The Building Industry ft. Lucas Stone

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Lucas Stone is a master tiler, stonemason, boat builder, rock musician and one of the most unfiltered humans I've ever had in the shed.

In this episode we go deep on why most tilers don't understand the fundamentals of their own trade, why falls and screeds are a lost art, why young tradies are struggling to cut it in the hard trades, and how Lucas went from overdosing at 22 to building one of the most respected tiling businesses on the Gold Coast.

This one pulls absolutely no punches.

If you work in the building industry or you've ever had to fight your way back from rock bottom, this episode is for you.

Transcript

Why Tiling Needs Tough People

SPEAKER_01 0:00

How do you see young people coming through the trade, mate? Like, are you getting a lot of people that want to become tilers?

SPEAKER_00 0:04

No, like, so this is gonna hurt a lot of hearts. In my trade specifically, you know, like, arguably, if you've got to screet a thousand meters and then lay a thousand meters of 20 mil thick stone or whatever, it's one of the harder jobs that a man can do. It's not for everybody, you know. Like concretors, brickies, blockies, tilers, stonemasons, we've got it tough. We all work hard, but it's one of those jobs. Yeah, you're on your hands and knees, you're lurching all day. It's a horrible environment in a way that like I have found in the last 15 years I haven't been able to find one suitable young boy. You can't come to work and expect to be babied as a tiler or a stonemason and think it's okay to stand there and wait to do work when there's drawing times involved, there's all kinds of shit going on. You've got to fucking move. And if you're not prepared to be roused on, yeah, not abused, not abused, but roused on and moved and had your ass kicked a little bit and don't come to work. And I care about the younger minds, but I ain't gonna be a babysitter, and it is the real world.

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SPEAKER_01 0:59

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Meet Lucas Stone And His Path

SPEAKER_01 3:23

We're back in the studio this afternoon for an absolute cracker. I uh I'm not sure where this one's gonna go, but I'm really looking forward to it. The guest we have for you today is Lucas Stone. Uh he's from the Gulf Coast, he's come up to sit with me this afternoon, and we're gonna talk about a lot of different topics today. He's got a rock rock and roll band, he does um he's got built for battles, he does some therapy with people and helping trades out. He's very, very passionate about his trade. And I originally started following him on Instagram because he was doing a video talking about falls to a floor waste, and it just really resonated with me. And uh something that I've been dealing with on one of my projects at the time. So I I know he's very passionate about his trade and helping tradies do better better jobs as well. So uh big warm welcome, mate. How are you?

SPEAKER_00 4:08

Good thanks, Mike.

SPEAKER_01 4:08

Thanks for having me. Mate, so you're you're a father, you're a musician, you're a rock star, you're a tyrant, you do a bit of everything.

SPEAKER_00 4:15

Trades in? Yep, yep. Just uh a dad started in trade when I was you know 12 and a half, 13. I first on a building site, and then yeah, played started playing music around the same time. My mum was a musician when I was a kid, and I got a pretty wild scene. She used to scream in a punk band. And um, we get dragged around from from pub to pub and stuff while she was playing shows and just really yeah, just really wild kind of introduction to you know music and I guess uh artistic endeavors, and just fell into trade work, you know, watching um one of my mum's friends. He was doing a tiling job, and I just was obsessed with watching him work trails. I couldn't remember my brain, I'm just he was really, you know, crafty with his hands and stuff, and and then just yeah, fell into it ended up doing a day's labouring with with my next door neighbour as a bricklayer, and I was yeah, not even 13 yet. So I was got got pulled around on site with all these hard old brickies from the 80s and just loved it. And then um within a few months I started working part-time for Rick, the the guy I'm not doing my trade with as a tiler. And he was the the fellow that you know was uh an associate of mum's, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 5:25

Yeah, so you've been doing you've been in the industry for a long time.

SPEAKER_00 5:28

Yeah, yeah, I managed to squeeze in three trades. Like I'm fully qualified as a uh a tiler and high-level stonemasonry. I I built boats for a long time. So when the GFC came and and kind of you know collapsed things, I'd started building boats. Like I moved to the Gold Coast when I was 19, 20 to get to know my dad, and he was driving trucks from a marine company. I just you know finished my trade probably two years before that, was working for myself, and then just thought I'll I'll go and get a job part-time here until I get myself settled and um ended up falling into building boats and then got off another apprenticeship and started that apprenticeship, finished that and ended up as a contract boat builder um with one of my best mates from up here, and we we sort of took that right to the end as far as you know watching all the companies go bust around us, and we had like 26, 27 guys working for us.

SPEAKER_01 6:16

What sort of boats are you building?

SPEAKER_00 6:18

Oh, everything from like 36 twins in single cabs, four bridge cruisers, right through to you know large yachts. So yeah, I built hundreds of production boats and I built probably a handful and a half of traditional ground-up builds, you know, catamarans, um, you know, done big hole reconstructions on on big yachts and stuff. And it just helped me develop my trade as a tiler. So when the you know the GFC kind of happened and collapsed the marine industry, I just went back to laying tiles and I suddenly had all these other skills that made things um you know, different. Like my scope was different. It had grown from being like a bathroom to like, oh, I'd been building these 70-foot yachts, you know, playing with cranes and had all these timber skills that that made me see stonework and tile work differently. And I started thinking about what kind of clients needed needed a specific thing that was outside of the norm. And because I'm an artsy person, I started looking at things like okay, well, my options are different to you know, I don't want to just go do Metricon homes. I'm sorry, no name dropping, but you know, all that sort of project homes and stuff. I'm gonna try and cater for for specific, you know, high-level stuff that that takes time and a little bit more now, I guess, than than the average stuff. And yeah, just being able to pass it down to the guys that work for me and and cater for that.

SPEAKER_01 7:33

Yeah, well you're obviously passionate. Like I said,

Screeds And Falls That Actually Work

SPEAKER_01 7:35

I I resonated with you by after I saw a I think you're screening a fall to a drain and you're I think you're on a bit of a rant. You're talking about how people don't get full and don't understand fall and all those types of things. So you I just love your passion, mate, for what you're doing. I've followed you ever since, and I I like how you you don't hold back, you're just telling how it is.

SPEAKER_00 7:55

Yeah, I think um, I mean, again, the era that I started laying tiles in, we wet better and thick better everything. You know what I mean? Which, like for the people that don't understand what that is, it's basically you know, we're soaking tiles and st and and you know, soaking a back buttering stone, you know, you're you're you're putting everything out in the shape that you need as far as your screed goes, and you're throwing neat cement down, water, you're tapping it in, you know, everything's built by cement, you know, it's proper masonry and whether it's stone application, like laying big sandstone slabs and stuff back then, granite, all the rest of it. There was nothing that um I hadn't sort of experienced on the horrible end of tiling, I suppose. And I get real passionate about screeds because I've seen so many people fail and not understand what the fuck they're doing when they're screeding, and it's the most important part of the trade. Like cutting's amazing, laying flat without clips is another benchmark you should be trying to make as a tiler before you start using clips, but no one's doing that anymore.

SPEAKER_01 8:50

No, I make clips, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 8:51

I didn't start using them until 29 and I refuse to for so long. And I got I just had a job that had massive banana tiles that were 1200s, and I had to use them because it was like a return stagger format, so you just couldn't lay two seagull wings against the straight mark another piece, it just wasn't happening.

SPEAKER_02 9:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 9:06

Um, but anyway, yeah, the the screening thing is to me, it's the guts of the trade. So I get real funny about I guess guys out there that are licensed and qualified to do a job and don't actually understand the geometry of a bathroom and how to to work with uh essentially a large format, fully flat, rectified object that if you push one corner down, it's got two corners touching, the other corner's gonna sit up. So you can't just cone fall a waste to a fucking bathroom waste like a drain and expect it to work without you having to lift all those tiles back up and lose your fall.

SPEAKER_01 9:39

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 9:40

You know, understanding how to set up you know dead level perimeters, then V those perimeters across sections to the waist so you have you know panels where you need them, and and you know, being able to shape like a large backyard with drainage in the right spot, and not many guys are doing it properly, and they always end up with a QC situation with ripping tiles up and trying to rectify it, thereby eventually losing their one internal one in eight four that they're trying to achieve.

SPEAKER_01 10:02

And it's just my mate. And look, I think there's everyday school days always room for improvement, we're definitely not perfect, but um like in my business, like myself, my supervisor, my lead lead guys, like we're thinking about the falls before we've even placed the concrete.

Designing Heights Before The Pour

SPEAKER_01 10:20

That's a good builder. Like we're uh like when we're doing our our bedding for our slab, like we're putting fall into those, into the sand beds to make sure that we still get the same thickness of concrete. But even before that, like we're so we'll we'll these days like we'll consider all the fall on the drawings before we've even gone to site because we want to make sure that the the plumber positions the pipe for the drain in an area that we can make sure we're achieving all the correct fall. Yeah, it's just it's all those little things that I like. I personally don't think they're out of the ordinary. Like, I think that's what we should do.

SPEAKER_00 10:54

Yeah, well what you're saying now, it is it is ready. Like, I almost like and I work with some amazing builders, then no discredit to any of them, but almost all of them don't have the foresight from because it all comes down to heights, right? Like, you know, what what's what's your last, what's your highest height? Yeah, where's your door at? What are you what clearance you need from that? Where are you going? What's the drainage for that? Like the classic one for me is always a dwelling with a slab to a pool that has a shape that's got a return on it and where they put drainage, yeah. And understanding they're like they're them liaising with the concrete builder, sorry, the pool builder for concrete heights on the actual pool versus having like being able to screed it and create enough height onto the slab to create the falls that if it does have central drainage in that area, you know, understanding that there's a level perimeter on that whole pool that you cannot change. And if you have say a return, it changes everything as to how the tiler can work his falls to go exactly where they need to. Yeah. When you've got flat spots that are gonna essentially send it into the pool, you know, or or catch it here. You know, a lot of tilers though, especially if they're not working in with the you know, a pool builder that's contracted to do the tiles as well, and he's you know, V'd the pool coping back into the slab, and then you've got poor water coming, I mean tiles coming down falling towards the pool, yeah, you know, because of the shape of the yard or whatever's got to happen, and you've got water catches everywhere, and it's just something that if a builder's thinking about that stuff, it's refreshing to hear, you know, same as in bathrooms. It's like

Waterproofing Starts With The Substrate

SPEAKER_00 12:22

when are they gonna address the the issue that is no, I guess it's the elephant in the room, realistically, like you need falling the substrate before a screen goes down if you really want to waterproof a situation, and that that applies more to upstairs, which means we've got we're talking about you know, planting joists and laying sheets specifically if you're scaring or compressing the floors. Like, if you want to truly waterproof a bathroom, it's in the builder's best interest. Every single sheet joint that he has on compressed or scone needs to be sealed. Every single screw penetration that goes through, he needs to be pumping sicker into that hole and then sicker dipping the screws and then scraping those off. So his floor is waterproof before the waterproof even gets there. Puddle flangers need to be recessed. You know, all of your all of your all of your wall sheets need to be three to five mil above the floor. So the sicker cove, the bond breaker that goes in needs to cove and then go down and under and bubble up behind it, not just sit on top. Yeah, you get a bit of movement, the shit just comes away.

SPEAKER_01 13:18

We've only just started probably I'd say two years and and only through conversations with our tolerant waterproof, um, putting the fall on our substrate. So we'll we'll generally get the engineer to um uh set the floor joist down anywhere from 80 to 100 mil, and then we can put other pieces of timber beside those joists to get our fall. Batten it out. Yeah, and batten it out. And uh because we found that for a long time. Like we were trying to do the right thing, but the engineers had only put 50 mil step down and 50 mil wasn't enough to work with. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 13:50

Um I I will say, like, if the waterproof and toilet does a good job, if the floor's that honestly, if the floor's dead flat, as in just level, and you do all the other things I just mentioned, you're not gonna have a problem.

SPEAKER_01 14:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 14:03

You're just not like it, especially if you allow the the issue that's gonna create a problem is potentially waterproofing over a screed, which is now a new regulation, which I don't agree with.

SPEAKER_01 14:11

Oh, I don't agree with either.

SPEAKER_00 14:12

Um surely because if for some reason that membrane does rupture or a crack, a crack goes through the screed, because the screed's not structural, it's a topping. And it pierces that membrane and water gets under that and delaminates that from the screed, and if not holds water in that situation, then you are gonna have a have a have a problem somewhere eventually, and it's generally gonna be the tiles lifting because you've got water underneath your waterproof membrane. Yeah, but as far as like having a waterproof substrate and then a screed on top and the falls being correct, getting the water away as fast as possible, essentially, if the builder has a stipulation in place where he seals the floor, like I said, every shooting joint, every penetration that goes through that floor before it's even touched, then that's your best safeguard.

SPEAKER_02 14:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 14:58

And if a good if a good waterproof does a good job, then it's not gonna leak. And if it does, something else has happened.

SPEAKER_01 15:05

Yeah, I mean, I've had a few heated conversations around the waterproofing. Um we we had another, we we trolled another waterproof for a little while. So we we water test all of our So that's old school. Anything, whether it's a shower, whether it's a whole bathroom, or even the deck. Like we'll we'll put a perimeter around a deck and flood a whole deck and and water test it. And um we tried this new waterproof once. He'd he'd followed me on Instagram, he'd reached out a few times and wanted to do our work, and we needed somebody else. And we gave him a go and then and uh I do quite a few videos on our job sites and things. So he'd finished his waterproof and we'd plug the drain up, we'd filled it with water, and I was just doing a video talking about how we'd done it, blah blah blah. But anyway, the next morning it leaked. It was only a tiny, tiny little pinhole. And uh I just all I did like I didn't bang him out, I didn't even mention his name or anything, but I literally just said, Oh, look, this is why we're waterproof, like there's no one's fault, but it like it's just good practice to do this because if this had to happen after like years down the track, it's a whole like it's a $20,000, $30,000 exercise. And he cracked the shits. He's like, People know I've done your waterproofing, like I did stories, told him I was doing your work, and I was like, Well, that's not my problem, like you uh should have done your job properly.

SPEAKER_00 16:14

But you know, in not in his defense, but like it raises the point I was saying before, like that's gonna happen, right? So when we talk about the waterproofing of the screeds after the fact, my biggest issue with that is the fact that it's rarely done properly because it's a secondary waterproof, right? It's actually it takes on a lot more membrane as well because it's so porous, yeah, which means it's actually quite expensive in material for the waterproof to do it again. Who's paying for that? Like if you've already got a rate in place for your meter for your meterage, for your waterproofing, you've tanked the whole bathroom and then you screed it, and then you waterproof the screed as well, it's gonna suck up a lot of shit no matter how hard you prime it. Yeah, it's very, very hard. You're gonna have to do two or three coats of that realistically, especially because screed's a porous surface, yeah, to ensure that you don't have one of those pinholes, which is then gonna be going to become a bigger issue in that environment than what you're talking about, Shirley, because it's under the screed. It's under the tile.

SPEAKER_02 17:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 17:08

And the waterproofing um adhesion to a screed is nothing. You know what I mean? Yeah, it's just that layer, it's gonna get water underneath it and just bubble. Then your whole tile is drummy, it's not not adhered anymore. Um I'm which is which which is you know.

SPEAKER_01 17:22

We're waterproof. The last couple of jobs we're waterproofed on top. I'm not a fan of it, but but we're still waterproofing underneath as well. So we're sort of doubling up a little bit. But always waterproof underneath. Even um always. Yeah, look, I I I don't know what your opinion is on this, but I feel like all a lot of the changes that have come in with waterproofing, well, it's probably changes across the board, to be honest, with the building code. Like, they actually they actually wouldn't be needed if trades did their job correctly. And a lot of the changes they keep bringing in are simply band-aiding poor work. Blanket fix. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 17:57

Yeah, 100%. It's like a knee-jurt reaction to a problem that tries to cover the bases of a lot of guys that probably just aren't trained that in that area properly or like enough. Or haven't seen enough.

SPEAKER_01 18:07

But even just fall, like talking about fall, like if if people if people put the correct fall on things, it's like builders doing a concrete path around a house. Like, if they had the correct fall with the water going in the first 20 mil in the first meter away from the building, yeah, there'd be less defects around footings and slabs and movement and those types of things. But and I think it's only gonna get worse over time. Like, there's people don't understand the consequences of why something should be getting done. Yeah, like moisture at the end of the day ruins everything. It doesn't matter whether it's concrete, screeds, tiles, glues. Like if moisture sits around for long enough, it affects things. So you've got to get rid of water.

SPEAKER_00 18:43

100%. And it's funny, like, you know, going back to the marine thing, like you build houses for the sea long enough and you start understanding how quick water needs to get away. You know, you build a floor bridge cruiser, essentially they're made to go down underwater and pop back up again. You know, like it's kind of like they're not supposed to. But essentially, if the boat's built right in the ballast is where it needs to be and it's it's doing the right thing, the thing will pop back up and drain straight away. Sound like a cockpit floor in the back of a floor bridge cruiser, it's got like a taper to it, it's got a full drainage around the outside, goes straight out through, you know, the the the scupper flap um towards the back and where the transom is. Um, and then you've got bilge pumps underneath in the hull that catch water is shooting straight back out. Like it's there's instant get the water away quick as quick as possible precautions. Yeah. I don't understand why houses or like you know, when you talk about trades doing their jobs properly, if you talk about fall, essentially if you want a bathroom to not hold water, then just get the water away as quick as possible. One of my other little gripes with this that we're just talking about is actual like I love I've like I love linear drains, but I only use custom fabricated stainless steel tapered drains. I will not use ones at UN Cap unless it's a long drain that we're joining together outside. The ones I use are actually bought a bit of a bit of a bit of a shout out, but she are a great shop in um Labrador. I met Peter when I was doing work for Graham Cameron back in 2000 and what year was it? 2010, maybe 2011, when he first started his operation. It was just him and his and his brother, I think.

SPEAKER_02 20:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 20:14

And his drains are beautiful. And he's to this day, that company's been making more drains ever since. I've noticed, I've got this theory, right? If you have a shower with a linear drain placed at the shower's end, and you've dammed up your shower area and you fall straight down to that drain, I've got a little bit of an issue with the infill tile at the back. There's been a bit of an argument that people are not liking, because I I started making my builders put their plumbing just underneath that back wall. And my theory on that is if that's capped and it's a solid stainless drain and you've got that shower wall, and it's silicon all around the outside, outside the wall tiles, not under the wall tiles, so it goes up against them, everything goes straight to that drain first. And that that most vulnerable corner, which is the shower's wall, corner of a shower, is getting minimal water. When you fit those linear drains, you know, I never mud them in. I'll have a recess and I sit them in on towers of syflex and adhesive alternatively, right down the length of the drain, and we seal in whatever packers either end it needs to sit at the height that it needs to sit. So whatever water does get down there has the ability to work its way towards that drain because it's not all full of mud and adhesive and whatever else. So it doesn't sit in there, it has the ability to dry out, especially if the shower goes unused for a day or two. It's it's you know, it's gonna start drying out properly. So there's a few little theories in that. When you put a tile there and you and you mud that tile in behind the drain, it's just holding water the whole time. So there's a couple of little funny things like that. Like I I would prefer, and I'm because I've had no fails on that ever, I would always prefer to see that in a build if you care about your bathroom not leaking.

SPEAKER_01 21:55

That's what we try to do.

SPEAKER_00 21:57

And that get that's getting water away as quick as possible as well.

SPEAKER_01 21:59

That's I I I agree a hundred percent. Where wherever like 99% of the time that's what we aim for is that drain against the the tile.

SPEAKER_00 22:06

Yeah. And um there's a couple of situations where we haven't been able like we have I've heard that people are that the regular regulations are sort of stating that you shouldn't do it. And I'm like, what are you talking about? Yeah, no, it's not it's the cleanest best way to do it.

SPEAKER_01 22:18

It's not recommended. But I I I would imagine it's not recommended because it's not getting done correctly. Yeah. I think if it's getting done correctly, and exactly like you said, like putting the the towers or the packers underneath, like same as when we do these flush finishes outside to inside now, and we've got to have drainage um basically sub seals underneath all of our door frames that extend out and have an inbuilt drain in them. Yeah, we're doing the exact same thing. Like we're putting a support sort of every three to four hundred. So it because you at some point in time it's gonna get it some little bit of moisture in there.

SPEAKER_00 22:51

Where every single cementititious product, if it's not being epoxy grouted, it's all porous. The screeds are soaked. Yeah, if they're outside screeds on a deck, they're soaked all the time. You've got to have a spell of about two months before those screeds will actually dry out properly, especially if the tile has been caught mid-lay before grouting and it just gets soaked. Yeah. You know, like you an outdoor screed, especially in an area that's copping a fair bit of rain, they don't really dry out. Like you're hard pressed. So you've got to you've got to essentially build it to understand that that's a wet product. Like and if you're using, you know.

SPEAKER_01 23:21

I feel like that's a part that's really overlooked for in in multiple areas of the build is like yes, you can build it well, yes, you can keep water out, or you can get rid of water on drains and things, but you have to build for water to get in at some point. Yeah, and just stay there. And if well, if it gets in, it's got to be able to dry out. Yeah, that's right.

SPEAKER_00 23:38

Which is which is another issue with um, you know, moment the waterproofing over the over the screen is a hard thing because you've got water trapped under the tile in that whole thing. So that's where you start seeing reactions with you know your cementititious products, you know, as far as efflorescence and discoloration of the grout and all that sort of stuff.

SPEAKER_01 23:54

Mold. Um look, I'm definitely no expert, but from my knowledge, I can't believe that they want that to be the standard.

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Certifiers Wet Area Rules And Maintenance

SPEAKER_00 26:11

This is the funny thing, right? Because I do a lot of work in New South Wales and Queensland and you know, contractor license and qualified to do both sides. There's different opinions across the whole thing, but they've essentially got the same rules now with the full ratios as well as how you're doing it. But I'm telling you, and I don't know why, because there's an Australian standard in place, but they've obviously been green-lit to be discretionary because there's a five four or five certifiers that I deal with either side of the border. Mainly New South Wales, because in in Queensland you just provide a Form 43 and you guarantee your work, and that's kind of it. But in New South Wales, some make you do it, otherwise you've got to have some kind of discussion with them, or you just don't do the job, and other ones don't want it, and they actually agree with you. So there must be some something in the in the grey area that enables those certifiers to say to you, Oh, look, if you've got correct falls and I'm seeing that, and you choose to do that, then you don't have to do it. Then other guys are coming in going, you have to do it, otherwise I'm not going to pass the job.

SPEAKER_01 27:17

Yeah, I'm not sure. Like what most of the certifiers were um involved with, like they're either asking for uh sections through wet areas before they'll stamp the plans. Um if if the plans have been drawn and they like we actually had one come back this week and it and you couldn't clearly see on the floor plan where the water stop angle would go. And so the the certified questioned it and made the architect update the drawings to clearly show uh like a dam to where the water stop should have been, and by asking that question actually changed the design of the bathroom because then we actually realized it's actually a full wet room. Yeah. So it's got to be set up completely and the whole thing dammed and all that sort of stuff. But my personal opinion is like we we need to be building things that will last for hundreds of years, not 20 or 30 years, and so it's all about durability, yeah. And like, yeah, dealing with moisture, and like we've seen it now in the building code, like they're talking about condensation and mould and all those types of things. Like so moisture will get in at some point in time, it's got to be able to dry out. Yeah, but we have uh conversations, we run, we've got a checklist we run through with clients at handover, and I probably spend I'd say sometimes 10 to 20 minutes in the bathroom. Like I'll I'll pop the linear drain out, I'll show them how they how to clean it, I'll explain to them that if this stays moist, it's gonna eventually fail, it's gonna give you problems. And I know as soon as I leave there, then they're probably not never gonna pull that out ever again. Yeah, we get them to sign that document after we've done that handover to say that I've shown them how to maintain everything because I think that's another big part of the problem. Like once clients move in, they just don't look after anything.

SPEAKER_00 28:55

Yeah, that's right. And everyone's different, not everyone's you know, you might be tidy and and anal in your own house, but that doesn't mean everybody it's like having a group of friends, right? I think everyone tends to surround themselves with people that are kind of like you, so you start seeing the whole world as all those people, yeah, but it's just not the case. And I hate to sound like an elitist prick, but essentially there's people out there that just don't do the things that you need to do to maintain or produce a result for something, whether it's just general cleanliness or high-level tradesmanship. Yeah, so yeah, it's it's a you know, it's a it's an issue. It is definitely a you've got to cover your ass, you know. Like you said, if you've got like a an agreement in place that to get someone where you've shown someone what they have to do to maintain it and kind of covers your buttons something goes wrong.

SPEAKER_01 29:37

It's trying to, I don't know if it would, but it's just trying to point out things

Apprentices Accountability And Trade Culture

SPEAKER_01 29:41

to clients. But how do you what's how do you see young people coming through the trade, mate? Like you're getting a lot of people that want to become tilers?

SPEAKER_00 29:48

No, like so. This is gonna hurt a lot of lot of hearts. In my trade specifically, you know, like arguably, if you've got to screet a thousand metres and then lay a thousand metres of 20 mil thick stone or whatever, it's one of the harder jobs that a man can do. It's not for everybody, you know, like concretors, brickies, blockies, tilers, stonemasons, we've got it tough. We all work hard, but it's one of those jobs. Yeah, you're on your hands and knees, you're lurching all day, it's a horrible environment. And this is really this this this is a really no, this is this is the thing, right? It's a really toxic thing to say in in a way that like I have found in the last 15 years I haven't been able to find one suitable young boy, and that's the truth. My last apprentice was 36 when I put him on, but I have put around 14, 15 apprentices across two trades, three trades, we have been the waterproofing, the boat building, and and tiling. And I've had some really good guys. The last 15 years has been very 20 years has been very, very different different, even just general labour. Now, the thing that sounds a little bit toxic that I was gonna say before is that I've just found that unless the kid hasn't had unless he's had it tough in his life, he's just not cut out for it. And which means that like you kind of gotta have some level level of trauma or kind of hate yourself a little bit to, you know, it's like I said, it sounds bad, but this is this is the fucking real world. It's like you can't come to work and expect to be babied as a toiler or a stonemason and think it's okay to stand there and wait to do work when there's drying times involved, there's all kinds of shit going on, you gotta fucking move. And if you're not prepared to be roused on, yeah, not abused, not abused, but roused on and moved and had your ass kicked a little bit, then they come to work. That's kind of one of those things. And I unfortunately, like, you know, if someone's got a kid out there that they reckon this is cut out for it, I'm keen to go. I treat my guys really good and I care about the younger minds, but I ain't gonna be a babysitter, and it is the real world, so it's one of the and I've had really good success with apprentices, but unfortunately the kids have changed, and we don't want to hear it, we don't want to say it, but it's a fact. Yeah, and it depends on their parenting and and everything that's gone into it. We just have a society now that caters for validation and removes accountability so much that it's affected the minds of our youth, and the minds of our youth are also totally absorbed in another life. Most people don't live in this real world now, they live on a screen, yeah, and that's a fact. Like they're communicating on a screen, they think that what they're doing, we'll call it 60-70% of their day is real life. They're smiling at that, they're laughing at that, they come back to their real lives and they're miserable. They don't talk to people proper, like it they don't address, you know, adult. Like when I was a kid, you meet your mate's parents, like Mr. and Mrs. Such and Such. Hello, how are you? Even if you're a little shit, you still were polite to them with to their face, you know what I mean? Like you did the right thing. Yeah, you know, like there's exceptions, and I ain't saying there isn't. And I and I'd I love to meet them. Like I've got my own daughter, she's now 19 this year, and I'd like to think we've done all right with her. Um, but I've also had, you know, I'm a I'm a I'm a loving dad, but I'm there's there's tough love there, there's there's distance, there's there's things that I've had to do knowing that hurts inside, but in order for her to stand her own two feet, I can't be fucking giving her into everything and validating all the things that she's doing that I think are okay. I've got to tell her what's actually happening. So yeah, when it comes to education and younger people, I'm super passionate about changing things, but there needs to be a few other things addressed in that conversation before we even start doing it. Yeah, and it's a hard one because I do get dark on this topic a little bit. Like I'm all for progression, but I also love my environment. I'm all for progression of people, but I'm also a little bit cynical with how we've ended up as a species. So there's a few things in there that are a catch with Lucas Stone as far as that stuff goes. I have a very specific way of teaching. Um, the two guys that work for me full-time now that will be with me until I die are my little brother and one of my very best mates. And I used to run massive crews right down to you know a few contractors here and there, and just no one's doing what I'm like, they won't do what I need them to do. And I've handshaped these guys and they're fucking good. And they understand the process. I'm in a stage at the moment where I'm actually thinking about and considering bringing on an apprentice or two going into next year, but I don't know how that looks. I honestly don't know how that looks. It's a personality type thing, you know.

SPEAKER_01 34:06

It's a it's a mate, I honestly don't think you're the only one that's thinking like this.

SPEAKER_00 34:10

Like, I'm well, it's a hard topic to address, right?

SPEAKER_01 34:13

Like everyone tries to sugarcane it.

SPEAKER_00 34:15

Yeah, like I'm I I know that I'm not the only one thinking like this, but it is scary because like I said to you when we're chatting before the show, it's like you got a you got a life, you got you got a human body, and in that life, you if if you get your shit right eventually, you're gonna start looking towards good health. With good health, you have the ability to be your own doctor, and then you have a doctor as a reserve, should shit go south, right? Those doctors are very highly paid because they're the next person down from you either getting it right or fucking it up. Am I allowed to swear it's a bit late, isn't it? No, too good.

SPEAKER_01 34:49

Too good, mate.

SPEAKER_00 34:50

Or fucking it up, and they're highly paid for a reason. On the other side of it, the next thing we need is shelter. That's a roof over our heads. Tradesmen have been treated like slaves for hundreds of years. Like the people that build everything you fucking walk in and under and around are tradesmen. The the thing that supports us and lets us create families, bring the kids up, not cars, not anything else, but if you're talking about just life, you need health and you need shelter. You know what I mean? And you you you hunt and you gather and you do your things on the way. We go to shopping centres, but you know what I'm saying?

unknown 35:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 35:23

So on that side of the equation, there's got to be a change with the way that people look at trades work specifically and the type of people that are doing it.

unknown 35:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 35:30

And that's where, like, that's where the sticky conversation comes into it because it's generally attracted thugs and like like dudes that have had it, like like when I was a kid, I was one of those people. And when I was younger, I was I came up, I was raised by criminals, I came up in a bad house, a wild, wild style of life, I had all kinds of issues, and that's where you went. You become a tradie as a backup. Whatever else you were hustling was like an addition to it. So I guess I was probably one of the rare ones that kind of had something else, you know, it might have been the music or just genetics or whatever. And I and I and I care about the learning process. I I value my brain, even though it's been punched a million times. I I care about what it's doing, I care about how it ticks. And we've got to start looking at tradeswork a little bit like that. And that doesn't mean that people can't do it, that maybe aren't thinking that way, but it means we need to have an education system in place that caters for the factors like, listen, mate, if you actually want to do this properly, I'm sorry, but you can't carry that attitude in this place anymore. We've got to start treating it like a hospital. As in, it's a formal place. Like, carry on like it like an idiot. Like, we're all like that. We don't want to have it formalised, but we need to have an approach to the ethics of the work in a formal space where it's like we have no grey areas here. There's only one way of doing this.

SPEAKER_01 36:46

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 36:47

If you want to have a quality control system that just goes over and over and over again across heaps of shit tradesmen, and you eventually get it right and hiding all these mistakes, that's cool, but that's not the way I I can see it working. If you want to be efficient, you do it right the first time. You have a sp have a parameter with which you can tolerate two or three little oh on the way fuck-ups, but they don't get through the gates. They don't get through to the keeper. You know what I mean? Oh mate, I I agree. It's a hard conversation. Like fucking I sound like an arsehole and I'm so sorry to do it.

SPEAKER_01 37:20

But no, no, no, no, it's what it is, man. I don't think you do, mate. I think it's it's all it's all conversations that need to be had. Like when we we've got the more most apprentices we've had in a very long time at the moment. We got um we've got our first female employee, young um female apprentice, um, school-based. Uh, we've got four other apprentices at the moment. But every time we put on a younger person, like, and it was funny when we put on a new female apprentice, like I had the same conversation I had with her with everybody because uh I I don't have anything against any gender, like I treat everybody the same. I don't care what colour, what gender, whatever you are. But I always have a conversation with the younger people and say them like it's hard. Like it when you come to work, it's you have to do a hard day's work. Like some days you'll be like you might be shoveling and wheelbarrow and dirt all day, like we do the landscaping as well. You might be some days you might just be loading concrete and shit into the into the bin. Like you do have to work hard, and there will be days when you're gonna be fucked and your back's gonna be sore, but that's our job.

SPEAKER_00 38:18

Yeah, if look, if you want to look, I I I fully welcome any gender to do what we do, right? But unfortunately, if we're gonna if if it's down to brass tax and it's a work thing and that's what's happening, I can't you can't cross the lines, like you can't blur the lines. Like, if you want to do my job, he can't help you doing that. And if you can't do that, then you can't do that job. And I know it sounds mean, but it's like you have to be able to do all facets of the job in order to be productive and do it by yourself. And there's heaps of great, I've seen a lot of great lady tilers um online and stuff. Like I've I've never actually met many female toders in our in our circles, um, and I'm all about it. But they probably end up going towards a specific side or s or s size of house or whatever, I guess, to cater for some of those things, but then there's other girls I know that are beasts and would just rip straight in. Yeah, but for me, if I'm employing, if I've got three guys lined up and one girl, or three girls lined up and one guy, you're all doing the same job. If you're on your own doing that, if you drop a barrow of mud, you owe the boys a cart and a piss. That's it, whether you're a girl or a boy, I don't care. Otherwise, get stronger and do the job. And it's a heart, like I sound like a pig, but it is what it is. Yeah, and I'd be the same. Like if I went, I don't know, I don't know, I don't even know how to term it without you know offending everybody. But basically, if I went to do a a female dominant job, I'd need to have the right approach to that job. And if I don't have the hands for it, I'd just I've got hands like a fucking, you know, like a stomach. So it's kind of like yeah, like I wouldn't be suited to it and not accept it. But you know, at the same time, there's some guys doing a lot of that stuff, you know, some great male nurses, and went on. I don't want to say anything because you just get shot down. But basically, I'm all about it and I support it, but we've got to be realistic about the trade.

SPEAKER_01 39:58

There's got to be the hard conversation about it because we're all the reality is we're already massively short on trades, let alone good quality trades. Look, I see it, I I definitely have seen it more and more, and so I think there's a there is a little bit of a a compromise there. Like I don't I don't think young apprentices should be I don't know if it's treated as the right word as some of us were like 30 years, 25, 30 years ago. I don't think that's a a trade thing, I think that's a a personal thing. Like a lot of like I know a lot of the blokes that I was taught by, like, they had a lot of personal issues that they didn't deal with, which I see in still happening today with a lot of tradies, and then they they take that personal frustration or whether they they hate their marriage or they hate their partner or they got issues in their relationships or whatever, and they bring all that frustration to work and push that onto not just the young people, they push that onto the whole team. So that that's one side of it that we I think needs addressing. But the other side of it is it's hard work, yeah. Like it doesn't matter whether if you're a plumber digging trenches and dealing with shit all day, or you're you're a sparky up and down ladders all day pulling wires, or you're you're a stonemason dealing with stone or a concrete or push and mud around. Yeah, it's all hard. It's a hard game. Yeah, yeah. And if you can't handle working hard five days a week, eight, nine, ten hours, twelve hours a day, whatever it is, then it's it's it isn't a job for you. Yeah. And I do feel like one of my biggest concerns with all that is with people, I guess, getting a bit softer in the industry, it's all adding to the cost of housing.

SPEAKER_02 41:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 41:34

Because if you're not working hard all day, every day, and putting in a good hard day's labour and everything's dragging out and taking longer and longer to do, it's you've got to charge for it. Like it's all just building up.

Tech Like Clips Versus Real Skill

SPEAKER_00 41:47

Well, well, with with with technological progression that does funnel into the trades, like my trade hasn't cop much, unfortunately. It's got the clips, mate. Someone's all laser. I still use a water level, but whatever. Um, yeah, the clips have helped, you know, the toilets obviously a fair bit. What I see is is like it's it's affected, you know, if if you look at the progression of technology, it's reduced skill. So you kind of got to be, I feel like 100%. If if things come in to your trade and there's a reason to forget the fundamental that created that situation, I kind of feel like the dude has to learn and do time on the fundamental side of things, even though that advantage is there. Like I wouldn't let Tobias, my main, my my my my little brother, my two I see, start laying with clips until he could lay flat free. Because I only laid, you know, right through the whole rectified porcelain era right until 2019. I didn't touch a clip. Oh, my mates using them. Are you gonna use these things? They're amazing. I'm like, fuck yeah, you can't tile. Using clips, you can't tile. And then I started, like I said, I did a massive job where there's 12 by six. Um, I was actually a 25% stagger, and the tiles had a 10 to 15 mil bow in each one. They were horrible. And I needed to, you know, treat the whole floor as a as a fuck up, basically. And I started using clips on that job and just realized I guess the body, the physic, the physical labour that it took out of it for me, as far as you know, like I'm I was putting tiles down two, three times, packing them right to get them perfect each tile. It's your hand fixing every tile with the gauge trail. This took that out of it a bit, you know. You can mix it a little bit different, and other things came into it. I saw a lot of guys, you know, like running things out of square and stuff because it's just jacking the clips up and not setting out properly. And there's still things you need to know, yeah. Substrate, you know, um, diagnosis and understanding what shape it's got to be, so you're not got fucking shit not stuck or whatever it may be if you're using clips. But yeah, generally the progression of trades is gonna take away original skill. So we are in a bit of an environment where you got three and four guys doing the job that one dude used to do, more and more, which is not real cool.

Set-Outs Communication And Charging Properly

SPEAKER_01 43:55

I love that you touched on the fundamentals because I I think across the board, I think fundamentals are getting lost. Whether it's trades or even running a business. Um, like comes to the business side of things now, everyone's turning to Claude or Chat GTP and thinking they're gonna make their business profitable and solve all their problems. But when it comes to site, as you just said, like no one if you don't know the fundamentals and and correct me if I'm wrong, because I'm not a tiler, like we've s my myself and mainly my supervisor these days, like we'll spend a lot of time with a tiler before he even lays a tile. Yeah, yeah. And our tiler, uh no, Shane's probably done our work now for shit, I couldn't even tell you. Must be getting close to six, seven, eight years, I know. But he like he still prime like cleans all the floors, yeah, primes the floors. Like, but before he'll lay a tile, like he will run over the floor with a laser.

SPEAKER_00 44:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 44:44

Or actually before he even primes the floor before he even primes a floor, he will check the floor to and then if he's got to hone out any lumps or bumps, he'll he'll quickly run a honer over. But that's right. Whereas I know other builders and I know guy or people that post on Instagram that don't do that. Like they just they just come in and they just smash the tiles down.

SPEAKER_00 45:05

Which again comes down to like, you know, just say when you asked me earlier about the mosaic and all the preparatory work we had to do in this job, comes down that that that's a whole other I touched on it in that dirty dozen thing I sent you. Like a big issue with a lot of this is people communicating. We talked about the psychology of the human condition before and how how how it's actually the primary cause of not being able to find good labor. It's the same thing when you meet a client or you've got a builder. It's up to the tradesman to voice to them before it happens for the sake of their relationship and for the tailor or the sorry the subtrade doing their ass to communicate like what's going on, what you've got to do in order to achieve the result you're seeing on an architectural plan, or like a you know, yeah, like a basic design of you know what's what's sort of happening and what the finish is supposed to be. And it's it's something like most people get in a lot of trouble, not just because of their skill, but because maybe they're rushing, maybe they might have the skill, but because they're they haven't quoted properly because of bad communication with the client, then they're rushing something, or they're freaking out and they're trying to manage two jobs at once and they're not they're not doing it the right way and something suffers, or they forget to do a thing, and that's a massive issue, you know.

SPEAKER_01 46:14

Like most of that's dealt with with communication.

SPEAKER_00 46:16

That's right. If you spend time with your Tyler, Shane, or whatever his name is, like that's that that's what you need to do. Like every trade, you know, especially the finishing trades. Like, I feel like we're all in we're all very important, but there's certain things that the client just loves. And unfortunately for a lot of you guys, builders that are doing everything underneath, the whole house is the only glory you get at the end of it. They love their cabinets, they love their tiles, you know what I mean? Like, oh my god, that's the shit. Yeah, so you need a guy that's sort of communicating, okay. If the client's looking at that, if they sit on the shitter, you know, an hour a day. Should go and see the doctor. If they sit on the shitter for 15 minutes a day and they're looking at something over and over again, if you've done a little funny mitre over there or you've got a weird thing going, they're eventually going to find it.

SPEAKER_01 47:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 47:00

You know what I mean? You've got a nice mosaic feature wall in a bathroom, like they're going to start looking at the condition of the wall and how shit finishes.

SPEAKER_01 47:08

It's funny, is that you know what I mean?

SPEAKER_00 47:09

Like, I know exactly what it is. What inspect to you as a toiler about like what do I need to do to that wall to get it perfect? So when the client's sitting there having a nice old shit, they're looking at it and going, fuck, that looks amazing the whole time. They're not going, oh my god, I didn't notice that before.

SPEAKER_01 47:23

The odd the odd occasion that I do uh shit on another toilet besides our own. Um mate, I'm always staring at the tiles. And the one thing that the one thing that just makes me so pissed off is when you look along a wall and it's it's right. Correct cut. Well, it's just out, like whether whether the ground lines don't line up or the room's out of square or oh man, we got a big can of worms here.

SPEAKER_00 47:47

So like being able to set out is just a forgotten art. Like it's in my trade. In any trade, but like in my trade specifically, you you fucking gotta be able to sit, you gotta be able to square up and set out and not have a cart unless you're hiding it in a cupboard or it's a return somewhere under 100-120 mil. Surely because if you haven't had that communication and you don't know, just say you don't know how to square up a room and you just go off the biggest wall, which a lot of guys do, which you can't do.

SPEAKER_02 48:14

No, you can't.

SPEAKER_00 48:15

You've got to factor in everything, especially if you're tolling outside and it's all got to work. You either gotta have a conversation with it with the builder. Like you can't have raked cuts. And the smaller you make your off cuts or like side of the room, if that wall's raked to the set out of your of your floor, yeah. If it's a 60 mil tile that's that goes to a 35 or 40 mil tile, it's a big fuck up. Yeah, 60mm tile is a fuck-up on its own. Yeah, I mate.

SPEAKER_01 48:38

I I love it. I um there's actually there's a few, there's one guy in particular, I can't think of the name off the top of my head. If you listen to you'll know that I'm talking about him, but um I actually got him on my podcast, and the reason I started following him is because he's a builder, but he was doing what we do in our job. Like, he was talking about at frame stage, like they're they're setting out walls and they're moving things a little bit to make sure that it works full tiles. Like, I'll show you before you leave, I'll pull my phone and pull him up on Instagram. You'll love his work. But he in his bathrooms, like he he sets out unbelievably like to make sure that there's like mited tiles or niches end up level with the bench towel. Like it's it's the detail's awesome. But that's cool. But that's to me, that's just part of our job as builders. You should care that much. Yeah, like that's it. Nothing shits you more when you have a niche in a wall and there's a full tile and then a part tile to finish a niche off. Like, fuck it.

SPEAKER_00 49:32

You better just pack it down, or I'll get the builder and I'll get out, whatever. Yeah, like work your niches out to work full tiles. I will say with set outs, like um, for me, the preference, because I don't like splays, and when I talk to clients, every client that I've had the experience with over the years, I give them the option. Like, do you know what a splay is around four? Oh, is that when they do that diagonal cut? Yeah, I don't like that. They all say the same thing. I have a technique in my screening and my set outs where I'll generally prioritize placement of the tile around the corner, four four tiles meeting, so a wasteland's in the corner of one tile somewhere, and achieve within that 100 mil parameter somewhere, generally never fail.

SPEAKER_02 50:11

Right.

SPEAKER_00 50:11

And if I do fail, I'll have a conversation with the builder and the client, say, listen, this tile is going to have an off-cut on one side, like a it's the so when you have a bath, if you happen to flood the bathroom, which this bathroom floor is probably not gonna get much water in it, would you prefer to just wipe that into the drain, or would you want to spray in the tile? Nine out of ten times they say, Oh, I'll don't worry, just leave it. We'll put a towel down. Yeah, it never sees water anyway. Yeah, and generally, because most of the showers we do have linear drains, yeah, it makes it easier. Even if I have a central drain with a smart waste, I'll prioritize that placement and still make the setup work generally with big tiles and everything working towards the walls, especially it makes it a bit easier if you have a different wall tile because you can either you know bond your joints or they might be different sizes or might be a feature or whatever. But generally speaking, I'll prioritize that first and then achieve the best possible result. If that doesn't work, then yeah, your cop and display has to go in. But it's but it's it's funny because a lot of guys I feel like are prioritizing certain things over the things that actually matter. Well, it's just speed, mate.

SPEAKER_01 51:15

They want to come in and start laying tiles as soon as possible. Like there's definitely been on the bigger jobs that we've done where like Shane and one of my supervisors, and and sometimes it'll involve a lead carpenter as well, coming in and just helping out, and like they'll they must spend half a day like flicking lines and checking things out to make sure that it because my whole team know how much I hate small cuts. It pisses me off. But I again I think that just comes back to the again, it's fundamentals, it's old school craftsmanship, but it's giving the client what they deserve. Yeah, 100%.

SPEAKER_00 51:48

If a client's I mean, it depends on what you're doing, right? Like if you've if you've tailored your business to to to cater for a specific kind of client and they're paying you good money, honour it. Just fucking honor it. Like care about what you're doing. And if it if if you're finding that each time you do a job, you're getting to the end of it and you're losing money because something's happened that was sort of similar to the last time. The common denominator is probably generally going to be you and will come down to the communication you didn't have with your builder or your client before you started. You know, I have a rate system in place that I send my clients, like I have a full rates list, and half the title is down there, you will use it, they rim me up, say, You get your rates list like that. No worries. So we're all on the same page, and yeah, you know, no one's undercutting anyone, whatever else. But also, it gives a clear indication to a builder what they're looking at. And I can say, mate, look, I've got to be honest, most of the time I don't quote jobs anymore. It's just like, you want me to do the job, I'm gonna do it. Here's the rates. Yeah. You know, what else is in it? I'll go and meet them. We go through the whole plan. That's funky, that's not that's outside of scope. You're gonna be paying for this for that, and I'll give another list on top of that of all the things they've got to look for. You know, make sure you've got lineals on your skirts, your drop tiles, you know. Um, you know, your miters are gonna have a lineal charge, um, draining stalls are gonna cost extra. Any featured mosaics are gonna cost extra. If set out time because you've got wall and floors all matching throughout the whole area and there's returns everywhere, and there's like you know, 16 penetrations in one bathroom, shit's gonna cost more money. Yeah, if you lay a timber floor and they they want a fucking pocketry feature of their face on the entry, you're not gonna charge the same metrics rate for the whole for that for the whole floor, are you? Yeah, it's the same deal.

SPEAKER_01 53:20

Same deal, mate. That'd be pretty sick, by the way.

SPEAKER_00 53:24

So for me, it's like there's a lot of that going on too, you know. Like if if if if you're finding that issue raising its head, it's like, well, maybe address it or maybe just change your your business model to suit what you can cater for.

SPEAKER_01 53:35

Yeah, it's I couldn't even tell you how many how many years it's been since we had a tiler quoted job, but that that's how we work. Like the tiles give us rates. And again, coming back to communication, if if I'm pricing up a job and there's something in the scope or in the space that isn't on Shane's list, I ring him up. Yeah, hey mate, we've got this job coming up, they've asked for this, what's it gonna cost me? Yeah, and we have that conversation, and then uh in my notes, in my proposal, I'll put in there called Shane, Shane said, blah blah blah. Like, because the last thing I I want to do is get to a job and I'll I'll cost myself money sometimes. Like, I won't leave the job until it's up to my standard. And if that means I've got to pay the trading a little bit more to do do something or get something right, it is what it is. But I don't want to put 60 bucks a metre on all my tiling, knowing that when the tiler comes in, there's gonna be a bit more for that and a bit more for that. Like, I want my client to know ahead of time what the tiling on the project's gonna cost, so yeah, yeah, yeah. You've um you've got to have that communication, those problems of those conversations. But um, mate, we're gonna be here all night if we don't keep moving on because I've got stuff we want to talk to you about, and I like I don't mind, it's a good conversation, but um you do a lot of other stuff

Music As Craft And Outlet

SPEAKER_01 54:44

as well. Like you're not you're not just the Gold Coast best tiler. You um definitely not and I don't know which one to go into next to whether it's the uh whether it's the bloody music or the um or the built for battle stuff. So you choose, I guess, where we're going.

SPEAKER_00 54:58

Oh look, man. I guess we get the music out of the road because it's just like whatever. Yeah, I play in a band called Hammers, and I've had a successful career as a songwriter in Australia. I'm 50 now, so it's getting long in the two sometimes, but we still tour. We just did two months of touring. Um we played Dead of Winter Festival on the weekend. But I started playing music, as I said before. I grew up in a wild household, and my mum was uh she was originally a classically trained um singer and pianist, and ended up, you know, a bad girl in punk bands and rock bands and stuff when I was a kid. So I was introduced to, you know, like one of my favourite records. And the I was born in 76, so I think Nevermind the Bullocks were Sex Pistols was the first record I fell in love with as a little kid. Sabbath, you know, the first Sabbath album, second Sabbath album, just everything you can imagine from that period. And I just was obsessed with music. I remember my brain, you know, like I I'm crazy. I'm I'm I'm fucking crazy. Like my brain doesn't stop. And anyone who knows me or who's close to me will tell you, like, I'm people don't hang out with me. I'm not fun. Like, I'm gonna drag you to the gym, drag you in the surf first thing in the morning. I'll, you know, if you I'll I'll be dead quiet. And if you bring up a topic that stimulates me, I'll be like fucking and I'll know you with it, and you'll want to remove your own soul and go back home. So for me, it's like I've been an analytical person from the day I was born, and I remember my relationship with music in the very beginning and how fascinated I was with the layers of sound that I was listening to. So I remember being a kid, you know, the fucking lounder and be full of bong smoke, and I'd be I'd be there just like all these bikeys and adults and shit around me partying on, and I would just be listening to the music. I'd be listening to like the hi-hats and the guitar layers and identifying these different parts before I really knew it. And then I'd see these bands playing, I'd start watching like what the bass the drummer's leg was doing, and his other leg and these hands, and just really identified with the the sounds of you know the layers of music. So I think my road to songwriting happened pretty early, but I didn't start playing the guitar. Mum put me in guitar lessons when I was six, and I got kicked out for making a spitball pen and shooting a kid that never come back. So I picked the guitar up at 12 and it started playing properly, just taught myself, and within within the first six months, and I was a fucking pretty shit guitarist still. I started writing songs straight away. They were probably terrible, but I started that that bug, and I've had you know four successful bands, um, Scalene, Tension, Helm, and Hammers. And I'm lucky enough and and and gracious enough to still be playing in a in a current heavy band at fucking 50 years of age. I'm still headbutting the floor and kicking wind and doing my thing. Um, and that's kind of that, really.

SPEAKER_01 57:35

You know, uh we'll put some links to your um you sent me some clips here. We'll put some links on the uh on the podcast end of the podcast.

SPEAKER_00 57:42

I think I think that side of my brain's definitely all the stuff we talked about before and the attention to detail and just being a fucking anus with the whole thing. It's comes from more of an artistic, frustrated art. Like, like I said, I'm not I'm not a very nice dude, like really realistically when it comes to working, like I'm not the easiest person to work for. But if you want to excel and you want to have, you know, you know, a good run of of things, like you're gonna cop the detail and the education for it from me. And I think that's an artist thing more than anything.

SPEAKER_01 58:12

Well, yeah, I don't think it's a bad thing, mate, that's for sure. And we'll definitely I'll I know Shale uh be into the music that you've sent me, so we'll we'll check it out and we'll definitely share some links. But

Built For Battles Addiction And Recovery

SPEAKER_01 58:21

let's move on. So, built for battles. Like, I'm keen to really dive into this and and know like you're you're passionate about helping people.

SPEAKER_00 58:30

Yeah, well, it's a it's uh the business now I've reshaped it because I'm a I'm a qualified boxing coach and I've been in combat sports since I was a kid. Um that's my other love outside of music. I started Built for Battles with that as like an addition to it. But the general intention in the beginning was to help people. Like, so I came out of so I I was a drug addict from we'll call it say 13, 14 years of age. I started experimenting with drugs when I was 10 or 11 years old. I started using intravenous drugs when I was 15 and I experienced pure hell with drugs up until I was 29 years old. I died when I was 22. I overdosed countless times. Had a real, I guess, I don't think that I I'd really, I guess when I look at it, I was just charging. Like I didn't really think about anything other than how to wreck myself, I think. I had I didn't probably want to be here. There was obviously things going on in my world that made it difficult for me to to be happy with who I was without wrecking my brain, like you know, like taking all the things away and all the all the churnings that were going on inside away. So I feel like you know that that part of my life was pretty pivotal in shaping like who I am. I didn't start being a normal person until I was nearly 30. You know, like that's gonna that's gonna bring about a whole set of not just, I guess, like getting through that is gonna bring about a whole set of life skills as well as a need to give back something somewhere. You know, like I I don't really know how to how to how to create a metaphor for it, but I mean you gotta look at look at it like you you live turbocharged for that long, you know, and like my my my drug of choice was not turbocharged with the other side of the fence, but if you live in an altered state, you're essentially cheating life. So the come down from that is diabolical and you owe. You fucking owe. The world doesn't owe you a thing, you owe because you've robbed you you've robbed life of life. Like that's the way I had to that's the way I had to heal. Like I'm not again, people are gonna hate me. I don't have much tolerance for people that don't want to help themselves. I started built for battles to help people, and I and I and I started trying to relay and created a thing called the A Day in the Life where I would relay daily protocols to heal from you know mental illness, drug addiction, a general psychosis that you can find yourself in through trauma and stress, not treating your body right, and had a really good little client base for quite a while, probably a year and a half, and I just found myself dying. Like I was so drained and so depressed myself. And I'm not a clinic, I'm not I'm not a clinician, like I don't, I'm not qualified. It was, you know, life educated help, and I was very careful. I spoke to heaps of professional psychologists before I did it. I really formatted it. So I was only providing people with a positive structure to their day. We'd talk about things, I'd let them speak, um, and listen to what their situation was and really try and strategically, you know, attack it. A couple of times I had some scary situations, so I'd ring Luke, you know, the psychologist that I had on hand, or send him an email and say, I've come across this, what should I do? And I'd either recommend them to somebody else or go about it in a way that he might suggest. It was it was really good, it was therapeutic in a way, but I I found myself in a real bad spot. And I was really starting to attract people that didn't actually want to help themselves, they just wanted someone to vent to and blame someone else for their situation, and that wasn't why I started it. So I I reshaped the business over a bit of time, you know, sorry out the last couple of clients I had, um, reshaped the business into specifically boxing coaching. And I tend to be able to mentor while I'm doing that. So, you know, if I've got a if I've got a student that I'm teaching, you know, how how to how to how to how to move and learn this art form while I'm doing it, if they're showing certain things or you know, there's things I want to get through, then we're just doing it, you know what I mean. But we're doing it through physicality and general conversation, and it's not like I'm attached to this person and they're paying me money to do this thing. Um, so yeah, there's been a reshaping of it. I care about it, you know. I've I've I've definitely quietened a little bit as I've gotten older with where I want to put that part of my my own soul. Like, you know, I feel like maybe that that side of me that felt like I owed and tried to give back parts of myself might might have been a bit hard on myself, but I needed to do that to heal, as I said. Um and there's a lot of you know, like I was diagnosed as oh back in the 80s it was called severe manic depression, but bipolar one disorder. And I was on lithium for a long time. I got off all that. I don't take one fucking drug.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:11

So what what was your turning point like after all that like all those years? What made you at 29 years old want to change?

SPEAKER_00 1:03:19

I got stood over. So I I did a bunch of dumb shit, and a friend who who loved me, but was a way scarier person than I'll ever be basically stood over me and and put me in a house and cleaned me up. And he was there sitting on a fucking chair when I woke up and was there when I went to sleep. And I spent 17 days in absolute hell sick. Um and I've never been in that state, like I relapsed a couple of times, but I've never been in that state of addiction since. So he's a bit of a bit of a guardian angel, scary dude, but a good dude. Um I don't think I would have done anything if I didn't have that happen. So I've I've I've I am eternally grateful for for being stopped. And I did stuff up a few times, but you know, from 20, 28, 29 into 30, I met the mother of my child when I was 31. And we had a little girl. Once I did that, I ain't doing it again. You know what I mean? No more fuck up. So um, and I'd been straight for a couple of years, you know, into meeting her. We'll partying when we met and stuff, you know, having fun. But it was like I'd I was really like watching the devils on my back and and just doing the work, like trying to figure it out. It's funny with addiction because I don't believe in cold turkey, you know, after seeing, you know, like some people maybe it works for them and that's good. I don't know how far you heal, you know. I I believe in positive replacement therapy for sure. That doesn't mean smoking Siggy's and fucking doing all that stuff, it means positive replacement therapy as in training and eating well and changing your whole thing, you know. I'm in the ocean every single morning. I do things that connect me to the earth, you know, I I I have mantras in my head that I use that keep me anchored. So yeah, there's a there's a lot of stuff in that. You know, I'm a workaholic, so I think that's that's part of, I guess, that can be semi-positive replacement therapy, but I've still got to be careful of that. You know, I I respond well to pressure, but that doesn't mean I should be doing that to myself all the time. So um people quite often find it um either they don't believe me or they find it amazing that I fit so much into my life, and I quite often sit back and go, fuck, I really I really have squared it up, which is you know, I could die tomorrow and I'd be okay with where I'm at now. But I still feel I've got a heaps more shit to do. So it's kind of like you know, you can you can anyone can do a lot if they decide to do a lot.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:35

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:36

And if you if you if you if you look discomfort fair in the eye and embrace the feeling and try and fall in love with being overworked and uncomfortable and doing all the things your brain tells you you can't fucking do or don't want to do, then you're gonna have a better situation. I ain't no success because I chose to be a musician. You know, I've got a little house. Took me a long time. To get to that point, I drive my Hilux, I like my toys, I like guitars. I should probably be a multimillionaire, but I fucking ain't. And that's because I chose music. I work hard, I've got a stable business. Um there's things I'm happy about, you know. I definitely have a dark mind still, but that's where the music goes. That's where, you know, when I'm sparring and doing the things that I need to do, that's like me exercising those demons and getting that stuff out. I try to be a good person, you know. I'm not a very tolerant person, but I I work on it all the time. It's you know, I feel I feel like we've got to, you can't pretend to be something you're not, you know. Like and and being where I've been is gonna make you look at your shit. Yeah, that's that's kind of it. So essentially Built for Battles was kind of spawned by that. That's you know, like like the whole mantra behind the business ignition or spark was kind of yeah, like I've been through a bit of a war, you know. Just I wasn't dealt the you know the greatest hand. And my mum was an amazing mum, but fuck we had a wild life, you know. Like I forgive her for things and I love her because she put me here and stuff, but there's obviously shit I'm never gonna get over. I was around a lot of death from birth, you know. Like it's just a bunch of stuff that's made me who I am, and maybe want to write music and maybe want to outwork the next dude and get punched in the face and punch someone in the face and get choked and choke someone else and like do that in a controlled environment. Like that's all that sort of stuff, you know.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:20

Yeah, it's awesome, mate, that you you're open to sharing these stories because I've No, it took me a long time. There'll be people that'll listen to this that could be going through the same thing. Like that's um, and I think it's important for all of us to realize that we're not the only ones that go through shit.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:37

Yeah, no, 100%.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:39

Like listen and learn and uh from people that have been there and come through it and work their way out of it. I I think yeah, you you sharing your story, mate, is gonna help a lot of people.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:51

Well, that's that's that's lovely to hear. Like it's it's hard because it's obviously because I was uh my code as a kid was you know you didn't talk in like I kept secrets my whole life, so it took me a long time to be able to share stuff outside of my friend group or or whatever with with with people that built for battle thing was the first time. My daughter was 12 when that was dropped, and I think she read a few things on the website and stuff and was like, oh dad, like I didn't know I didn't really think about it, you know. I was like, oh fuck. And that kind of if I get asked about the songs a lot too, because the songs have a lot of that stuff in there, and I have pretty pretty strong worldviews and things, so a lot of it stems back to that. And I I found it very hard for a long time. I'd just tell lies in interviews and stuff, I'll just say something else. But the last 10 years I've been pretty pretty comfortable with it. Still gets me a bit weird, like if I'm being honest, you can probably hear it in my voice, but it's like it's a big part of me. You know, people ask questions about you know, you know, getting things done and and oh hey, you must be talented, it's not fucking talent, it's like it's it's it's work, it's it's work, you know what I mean. Any like literally anyone can do anything if you're crazy enough. Yeah, like if if if if you're gonna push yourself to the brink, you can do whatever the fuck you want to do. We're only all so crazy though, yeah. And how much of you are you prepared

Success Mindset And Building With Less

SPEAKER_00 1:09:04

to look at? You know what I mean?

SPEAKER_01 1:09:04

Like I think it takes a little bit of crazy to be successful. 100%. Like you people uh But what's success too, right? Well that's the other thing. But look, whatever six well, the thing is whatever success looks like to you, yeah. Like to me, success is more time with my family, my girls, out camping, whatever, enjoying life. Freedom. Freedom. Um but for me to get myself in a financial situation, be able to do that whenever I want to do, it does take a little bit of crazy. Like, because I feel the world's in a way, in a position now or in a place now where because of social media, people think that success is it just happens. You just do your job every day, and all of a sudden it's just meant to appear and happen. But you do have to be a little bit of crazy, like you've got to fucking push yourself, you've got to fucking work when you're tired, you've got to keep going when your body wants to shut down and give up. Like, there is no such thing as work-life balance. Like, if if you want it, you've got to gotta go for it. And I think we're we're well, I definitely feel we're a little bit the same, mate. Like, I I go crazy if I sit still. Like, that's just I don't know, people they call it a ADHD, I've never been diagnosed, but um I can't have like we go on a holiday and I can only I can only chill out for not very long. Yeah. And that and people say I'm crazy all the time, like you work too much, you do too much, but that that's how I relax.

SPEAKER_02 1:10:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:10:31

Like that's just what I do. Uh, and I think the important part is that everybody's different. Like you've got to find what works for you. Like, if you can handle sitting around all day and drinking, then that's your thing. But if you if you want to go surfing or go sparring or work your ass off and that relaxes you, then it it's that's okay.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:51

100%. No, well, yeah, it's uh it it it just depends on like we're living this life, right? And and and everyone just has their own perspective of what it is, like, and while we're here, like if you want to get down to brass tacks, which we don't have time for now, like I I don't like the way we live, well, if I'm being honest, like I I feel like humans just chose a whole lot of wrong directions to get here. So, realistically, when we talk about the building industry, that's where I am for that day. But deep in my heart, I'll burn all those buildings down. That sounds horrible. Don't be scared, I'm not gonna do that. But what I'm saying is like the the priority of mankind was to nurture and put back more than you take. Try and make some kind of harmonic balance, look after the fairer species, look after the animal kingdom. We ain't doing that. We ain't building big fucking palaces on the beach and doing that. So there's definitely like a contradiction that happens in a battle that I have every day when I'm using all that sand and all that water and seeing slabs of stone come in that have been blown up from some fucking mountain in Vietnam that I've got to put in someone's bathroom because they've got too much money. Or their whole house. It's a hard, it's a hard balance to make, right? And I don't I don't want to de-promote your building industry thing, but because I do love it and I appreciate the work, but there's a there's a lot of stuff that deep-seated shit that I think we all hold on to that that makes us act a certain way and maybe is responsible for a lot of the the psychology-based human conditions things that affect where we're going. It's deep down, like you get up in the morning, you do all these things, we're so comfortable, right?

SPEAKER_01 1:12:29

But I it's like you and I are on such similar pages, it's not funny. So I I battle with that every single day. Same thing. And so part of my part of my mission to create a new industry is is building better. I love that, bro. So I'm not so I'm not religious, but I I believe that everything on this planet is put here for a reason.

SPEAKER_00 1:12:50

And so we've got to have a talk outside of this, though.

SPEAKER_01 1:12:52

Yeah, and so a big part of that is like there's certain products that are put here for us to use to build shelter. And a big part of that is timber. Like timber, like Earth is the only planet that they found timber on. Like they found apparently they found minerals on other planets, but timber is one of the rarest, or is the rarest thing. That's beautiful, though. I love hearing that. And so I think with we're meant to use the trees. Like the trees are we're meant to, certain trees we're meant to harvest, we're meant to use them to create shelter, and then that's part of the reproduction, they grow back. But a big part of my goal with creating this new building industry is educating people to understand, like it shits me how our industry is driven by real estate and banks. Like the real estate says you need fucking five bedrooms, five bathrooms, three cow garages, five living areas. And uh then the bank sees value.

SPEAKER_00 1:13:47

Two people and a kid and a dog.

SPEAKER_01 1:13:48

Yeah, and so the bank sees value in that. Yeah, and so then we get it. So we like we've got plenty of situations now where we've got clients that want a smaller, healthier home that's built out of natural materials, but not full of chemicals. But the bank doesn't see value in that. So those people find it harder to get financed because the bank, and we've got we've got one of these situations at the moment where a lady is wanting to build a house on two acres, every other house around it is all volume houses, but she wants to build a healthy home. And the bank won't value it up because they see value in all the the five-bedroom houses getting built around her, and not the fact that she wants to build a two-bedroom, healthy home that suits her lifestyle. And that's that's bullshit.

SPEAKER_02 1:14:31

Fucking nice.

SPEAKER_01 1:14:32

So we're on the same page with that, and I battle with it every day. And look, don't get me wrong, like we build, we've built, we've got some under the on the books now. Like, we build some incredible homes for for great people that have worked very hard, they've they've earned their money and they're spending on what they see valuing and they think's nice. And I I get that, but I do think we need to have a serious look around around the types of products that we build homes out of or shelter out of and how much of that product we're using.

SPEAKER_00 1:15:02

Well, it's just sustainability, right?

SPEAKER_01 1:15:04

Like, well, the way we're building isn't sustainable. No, like it's nowhere near it, but we might have we might have to get you back, mate, for around two.

SPEAKER_00 1:15:14

Yeah, no, you ask me a question, I'm gonna give an answer.

SPEAKER_01 1:15:16

Yeah, um, before we uh so all the we'll put links to all this stuff on the podcast so people can check out your music and um built for battles and all that

What Level Up Means And Closing

SPEAKER_01 1:15:26

sort of stuff. But before we get out of here, what what's level up mean to you?

SPEAKER_00 1:15:31

Well, after talking to you, because obviously I didn't know you before today, apart from the odd conversation. Do you mean the actual business of yours or the actual term level up?

SPEAKER_01 1:15:39

The term level up.

SPEAKER_00 1:15:40

I think level up as a term kind of means all the stuff we just talked about. It's like you got you gotta choose, like you're given a situation as a person from whatever age you are, and the evolution of your life is essentially just continually leveling up. So for me, that term would always refer to the best it not like Instagram the best you can be, but like do the best you can do with the thing that you've got and don't sit around on the couch sucking piss all day, unless you want to, and you want to be the best of that, that's fucking cool. But also, like just level up the thing that you're doing, like that's that's kind of it, excellence, like in in a progressive going away.

SPEAKER_01 1:16:20

Yep, yeah. Awesome, mate. Well, look, uh Lucas, appreciate you coming up from the Goldie. And um, yeah, for anyone that's coming to watch you play this weekend, it's gonna be a good gig by the sound of it. But uh we will uh definitely stay in touch and uh we'll we'll see if we can pull off round two, maybe.

SPEAKER_00 1:16:36

But um sweetos, bro. Yeah, that was a pleasure.

SPEAKER_01 1:16:38

Guys, make sure you go like, subscribe, share, all those types of things. Uh go to the DwaynePears.com website, get your level up merch so we can continue to grow this level up movement. As always, if you've got any questions, make sure you reach out. We look forward to seeing you on the next one.